|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Doctor Who: Fall 2013
|
St. Gwladys
Shipmate
# 14504
|
Posted
I just found the whole thing rather confusing - if you asked me to give a resume of the plot, I don't think I could.
--------------------
"I say - are you a matelot?"
"Careful what you say sir, we're on board ship here"
From "New York Girls", Steeleye Span, Commoners Crown (Voiced by Peter Sellers)
Posts: 3333 | From: Rhymney Valley, South Wales | Registered: Jan 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
|
Posted
It's simple. Clara was cooking Christmas dinner for some people we've never seen before and tried to pass the Doctor off as her naked Swedish boyfriend. They then tried to get the turkey cooked in the Tardis to save time. Somehow, they ended up on Trenzalore and Clara got deported back to Earth and was wandering round with the turkey for a while.
Meanwhile the Doctor (now with clothes on) was growing rapidly older on Trenzalore, and regenerated into someone with a pair of really sharp shoes who couldn't fly the Tardis. At this point Clara wandered back in with the turkey.
In between there was something about something else that didn't involve the turkey, nudity or Christmas lunch. It wasn't very interesting though and it didn't really have much to do with the plot so I've left that out.
[ 26. December 2013, 18:23: Message edited by: Ariel ]
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
ArachnidinElmet
Shipmate
# 17346
|
Posted
Me neither. It's a bit baffling that essentially the same team made 'Day of the Doctor'. ![[Confused]](confused.gif) Good acting all round mind.
--------------------
'If a pleasant, straight-forward life is not possible then one must try to wriggle through by subtle manoeuvres' - Kafka
Posts: 1887 | From: the rhubarb triangle | Registered: Sep 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eigon
Shipmate
# 4917
|
Posted
I thought it was brilliant - I started crying when Handles 'died' and didn't stop - but that last line made me laugh, and that was the right note on which to leave it. Also, I think that Tasha Lem was a new regeneration of River Song ("You've been fighting the psychopath within you all your life!").
BTW, I see that Gran was also in Vengeance on Varos, watching the torture porn on TV!
--------------------
Laugh hard. Run fast. Be kind.
Posts: 3710 | From: Hay-on-Wye, town of books | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pine Marten
Shipmate
# 11068
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
It's simple. Clara was cooking Christmas dinner for some people we've never seen before and tried to pass the Doctor off as her naked Swedish boyfriend. They then tried to get the turkey cooked in the Tardis to save time. Somehow, they ended up on Trenzalore and Clara got deported back to Earth and was wandering round with the turkey for a while.
Meanwhile the Doctor (now with clothes on) was growing rapidly older on Trenzalore, and regenerated into someone with a pair of really sharp shoes who couldn't fly the Tardis. At this point Clara wandered back in with the turkey.
In between there was something about something else that didn't involve the turkey, nudity or Christmas lunch. It wasn't very interesting though and it didn't really have much to do with the plot so I've left that out.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) that about sums it up! I'm another who was rather underwhelmed by it, but I'm going to watch it again to give it another chance. I'm really going to miss Matt, though - but glad that he got to 'dance' again ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
--------------------
Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde
Posts: 1731 | From: Isle of Albion | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
tessaB
Shipmate
# 8533
|
Posted
I could forgive a lot for the line when Matt is asking all the other aliens why they were there - "I've got OCD what's your excuse?"
Also, yes, teaching the kids to 'Doctor dance'. ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
--------------------
tessaB
eating chocolate to the glory of God
Holiday cottage near Rye
Posts: 1068 | From: U.K. | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
|
Posted
I'm going to have to watch it again. On Christmas Day I watched it in the company of Not-We (who loved it, by the way, and just sort of went with all the references to the past few years despite not being regular viewers). I thought it was an odd "shape", the pacing somewhat off. I think I might like it better when I can absorb it on my own.
Peter Capaldi is scary. And might there be more to "I don't suppose you know how to fly this thing?" than meets the eye? - A return, perhaps, to more aimless and uncontrolled wanderings for the Doctor?
--------------------
"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
|
Posted
I was struck by how similar the latest Dr. Who episode and the latest Harry Potter film seemed to be. Both very zany, hyper, flitting from time zone to time zone, fighting myriad different threats, but all home in time for tea (well almost...). At times, I found it hard to remember which one I was watching, as they both appeared to be so similar.
--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I thought it was an odd "shape", the pacing somewhat off.
This. Most emphatically.
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
|
Posted
Having thought about it, I am going to defend the episode a little through the various complaints:
(1) The regeneration took a long time: Yes, but at least the script acknowledged it. The Doctor states that it is taking longer because it is a new regeneration cycle settling in first. So, long, but explained. And, frankly, do you all remember the Tennant-to-Smith regeneration? After he started regenerating, the Doctor went on a global tour to look at every person he ever met (including go off into space to find Captain Jack and then to go back to find Donna's father to borrow a quid to then go and buy a lottery ticket--presumably having gone into the future to find the winning number--and then dropping in at the wedding). Compared to that, the Smith-to-Capaldi regeneration was fast!
(2) Now regeneration energy can do anything including wiping every stinking Dalek off the face of the planet: Yeah, but, again, the script at least gave a nod to an explanation. When he gets the regeneration energy, the Doctor mentions that "the rules" are off and we have "new science" now. Besides, again, there was precedent: Tennant-to-Smith, the regeneration energy devastated the TARDIS. At the time, I figured that happened because the Doctor had a load of radiation absorbed into his body and the explosiveness was the release of all that energy during the regeneration. Something of the same could have occurred here. Special energy, one-time regen trick.
(3) Moffat went out of his way to be the man who fixed the regeneration problem: Ummmm, no. It is the flipping 50th Anniversary year. What better time to re-boot the regen cycle? Personally, I would have considered it inappropriate to do it at any other time. I expected it to happen during "The Day of the Doctor" but, frankly, there was already rather a lot going on in that episode, so it made sense to hold it over for the Christmas special. But it had to be done this year to celebrate 50 years. Waiting for the 75th anniversary wouldn't have been practical.
(4) Why did the Doctor stay on the planet for centuries?: Again, the script gave an explanation. Maybe a shaky one, but it is not like they ignored the issue. Time Lords are on the other side of the crack and want to come back. But the Nasties (particularly the Daleks) want to stop it. So the Doctor can't bring the TLs back without reigniting the Time War, which nobody wants. But if he leaves, the Daleks will destroy everything to prevent Gallifrey from ever coming back. The Doctor doesn't want that: He wants to bring his planet back somehow. He isn't going to abandon them. As long as he is on the planet, there is a stalemate. Oh, and for at least 300 years, he was there without his TARDIS, so the option of leaving was somewhat limited.
(5) The whole nudity/turkey/boyfriend thing was stupid: Ummmmm. Yeah, okay. You got me there. It was stupid.
And, just as a topper, I am so glad that they FINALLY got around to explaining (sort of) why the TARDIS exploded way back when. I had given up hoping that they would.
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Peter Capaldi is scary. And might there be more to "I don't suppose you know how to fly this thing?" than meets the eye? - A return, perhaps, to more aimless and uncontrolled wanderings for the Doctor?
I rather hope so. Just as the sonic screwdriver has become a little too much of a magic wand solving every problem, having the TARDIS perform with pinpoint accuracy takes away a bit of suspense. In the old days, you couldn't use the TARDIS to make short jumps here and there/now and then because once you took off you had no way of controlling where/when it went. I kind of miss those days. At least one season of being unable to control the TARDIS would be fun.
Structurally, though, my guess is this: the Doctor wants to restore Gallifrey. But it was lost. But he just found it. But now he can't control the TARDIS, so Gallifrey is as good as lost again. That sets up next season of the Doctor trying to regain his ability to control the TARDIS, to then get back to the crack, to then restore Gallifrey in time for next Christmas to set up a plot cycle for the year after that. Fun!
--------------------
"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
|
Posted
Regeneration never used to be this much of a spectacle. In the old days, the Doctor quietly morphed into his new appearance and that was that. Now it's all seething flares of blazing golden light and writhing agony as his head dissolves.
Give it a few years more and there'll probably start to be some kind of fanfare and a dance routine before everybody runs for cover and the Doctor explodes noisily in a shower of gold and silver sparks, taking half the surroundings with him.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
|
Posted
I liked the regeneration. As pointed out, Tennant to Smith took longer. I liked the suddenness of it, suddenly Capaldi's shocked face was there.
The Christmas dinner scene was there because this was a Christmas episode. It didn't have to make sense.
The nudity thing was there to get me, for the first time, to wonder what Clara looks like naked.
You want a crazy Christmas Doctor Who episode? Check out "The feast of Steven" within the "The Daleks' Master Plan" series of 1965/66 which saw Lancashire accents spoken in what was supposed to be Liverpool, utter farce, Buster Keaton and the Doctor speaking to the viewers at the end.
I thought I saw the Master at one point in the episode (the recent one, I mean), walking with a stick in silhouette.
The Cyberman-head dying scene wasn't emotional for me, I mean, he had only appeared that episode and I can't get too emotionally attached to a Cyberman part.
The bit after the Doctor got more lives showed Matt Smith doing excellent stuff, and that's when the tears started.
Can't wait to see the next episode. Do we really have to wait till autumn?
--------------------
The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
The nudity thing was there to get me, for the first time, to wonder what Clara looks like naked.
I think the bolded words here are a fib.
[ 27. December 2013, 15:21: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
My houseguests and I thought it was sentimental schmalz.
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kitten
Shipmate
# 1179
|
Posted
I liked it
--------------------
Maius intra qua extra
Never accept a ride from a stranger, unless they are in a big blue box
Posts: 2330 | From: Carmarthenshire | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
|
Posted
So how do we number Capaldi's Doctor. I go for Number one of the next generation regeneration.
--------------------
Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
|
Posted
He would be 13 wouldn't he?
Or is that 14 - I've really lost count, what with John Hurt, Paul McGann and the Valeyard being in and then out and all that.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
|
Posted
Personally, I am just trying to cultivate the habit of using the actor name (e.g., Tennant Doctor; Smith Doctor; Capaldi Doctor) instead of numbers.
But to try to think numerically: McGann counts. He is #8. In terms of regeneration, Hurt comes next, but then we have to address the issue of whether he is a "Doctor." That was Smith Doctor's whole point. Hurt was a regeneration but not a "Doctor" because he betrayed the promise of the name "Doctor." Or, at least, he appeared to until we found out the truth in the Day of the Doctor. So, pre-Day, he would not be in the "Doctor count," but would be in the "regeneration count." Post-Day, I have to say that I personally opt to call him Doctor again, so Hurt Doctor is #9. Eccleston (did I spell that anywhere close to right?) was the Doctor formerly known as Nine who becomes the new #10, Tennant (the Tenth Doctor) is the new #11. And, yeah, he burnt up an extra bunch of regen energy, but he didn't change so we don't count him as BOTH 11 & 12. He is just 11. Smith (the Eleventh Doctor that was) is the new #12, so Capaldi would therefore be...the Doctor.
[ETA: The Valeyard doesn't count at all based on my view of his existence discussed up-thread. He isn't even a real person, much less a Doctor. He is a computer program with delusions of grandeur.]
[ 27. December 2013, 18:26: Message edited by: Hedgehog ]
--------------------
"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
|
Posted
I've just watched it again, and liked it a lot more. The pacing now feels comfy up to the point where we get the very old Doctor. I still don't like how the war, as opposed to the siege, kept going so long.
But I've worked out why the truth field was there - it ties up a loose end from last year, when Dorium Maldovar said something about "when the question is asked, and all must answer truly".
And this time, Matt's final musings in the TARDIS just melted me. "I will never forget when the Doctor was me" - beautiful! He's been bloody good, has Mr Smith.
--------------------
"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Smudgie
Ship's Barnacle
# 2716
|
Posted
I fell asleep.
Woke for the last five minutes with no great sense of loss.
My first impressions of Matt Smith, all that time ago, was "I'll wait and see", followed swiftly by "Oh, yes, just perfect in the role", culminating in "Could we have someone a bit more grown up please?" so seeing the regeneration into someone who looks a bit more like The Doctor of old was worth waking up for.
--------------------
Miss you, Erin.
Posts: 14382 | From: Under the duvet | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
It's not elements like staying on the planet for centuries that I have a problem with. It's the overall pacing and the arc.
Because we started with this notion of basically every nasty race in the universe turning up. We've had that before, in The Pandorica Opens, and I think it worked quite well in that it was clear what everyone was waiting for... and then there was a neat twist in precisely what they were waiting for.
But this time, I just don't think it worked as well dramatically, because what's created isn't anticipation, it's a stalemate. And a stalemate that doesn't actually require every nasty race in the universe to be there.
I agree with all the observations I've read that argue only the Daleks were actually necessary, in the sense of being mortal enemies of the Time Lords who wouldn't want to see them return (although there's an argument that perhaps everybody would dislike the Time Lords returning because everybody would be affected by a new Time War). But a more serious problem - and one the script weakly tries to acknowledge with the OCD joke (which is nice in itself, but doesn't solve the problem) - is that everybody turns up without any real idea why they are turning up.
People might point to the nudity bit as being gratuitous, and it is, but I actually think having Weeping Angels pop up out of the snow is far more seriously gratuitous and pointless and annoying. We have to have the Doctor's enemies greatest hits turn up because it's a finale? No, no we don't. You certainly CAN have them all turn up, but there's got to be a convincing reason for it.
To go from grand, space opera all-the-enemies-gathered as an opening to a friendly old man teaching the kiddies how to see off passing Cybermen just did not work, tonally. There's nothing wrong with small intimate stories, but there's something quite wrong with giving small intimate stories an opening act that comes from a different kind of story-telling.
And you can, in fact, juxtapose small-scale homely elements with grandeur. Just look at Lord of the Rings for a masterclass in this. But the timing and order of presentation are really, really important to it being successful.
[ 28. December 2013, 01:09: Message edited by: orfeo ]
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Rogue
Shipmate
# 2275
|
Posted
I thought that the everyone turned up to see what was going on as it seemed like a big thing. When the Doctor worked it out the Daleks hung around, not to stop the Time Lords getting through but to launch a pre-emptive strike when they came through and everyone else hung around to stop the Time Lords because they didn't want another time war.
This is after watching it just once so far - I may change my understanding after a second go.
--------------------
If everyone starts thinking outside the box does outside the box come back inside?
Posts: 2507 | From: Toton | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
|
Posted
The Doctor was in Christmas for 300 years and then some. 300 years! That's the Roundheads to the Second World War. And in that time, it seems, that fashions didn't change, the town and its buildings didn't change and technology didn't change. The good denizens of Christmas got to what looked like a sort of kitsch early-mid Victorian period and then stopped.
And the activist Doctor spends 300 years sitting down making/repairing wooden toys (in a tower that never changes in 300 years - doesn't it need maintenance?). Nobody thinks about how they might protect themselves? The Doctor doesn't help prepare any defences, just fights individual enemies as they come along.
It's just somehow lazy.
I'll gloss over the fact that this was a farming community that seems permanently cold with only 2 minutes' sunlight a day - no doubt the crops evolved to flourish under those circumstances.
M.
Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
|
Posted
I think the reason for the nudity was to make Clara uncomfortable.
And someone clearly wanted to see Matt in the nuddy on set.
The reason for the angels around Christmas, as I see it, was to ensure that they focused on the town, because the surrounding area was dangerous. That would also be why the massed baddies couldn't land and attack from the ground.
--------------------
Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
|
Posted
Totally agree that the pacing was lazy. To which I would add, there was a great deal of exposition; we had several lectures on why things were happening. That's weak writing, in my book.
--------------------
Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ceannaideach
Shipmate
# 12007
|
Posted
What I'd like to know is this: what happened to the Valeyard? If Matt's Doctor was the final incarnation, then shouldn't the Valeyard have made some sort of official appearance? (Dream Lord not withstanding)
I realise, of course, that the source of this information comes from the Master, hardly the most reliable of Time Lords.
I did like the little nod to The Five Doctors. And as for not being able to operate the TARDIS by remote control... Has the Doctor forgotten the Rani and her remote control TARDIS?
For what it's worth I enjoyed the episode and am certainly looking forward to seeing Capaldi's Doctor in action.
--------------------
"I dream of the day when I will learn to stop asking questions for which I will regret learning the answers." - Roy Greenhilt OOTS
Posts: 199 | From: Shakespeare's County | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
|
Posted
Taking into account Pyx_e's Law, which states, more or less, that Even bad Doctor Who is better than anything else on television, and also that saying this was "bad" Doctor Who would be overstating it considerably, I still think there were significant problems with The Time of the Doctor.
And what they boil down to, I think, are two things:
1. Moffat had loose ends that needed tying up. This is a problem if you've created the loose ends without deciding in advance how they're going to be tied up, and I strongly suspect this was the position Moffat was in. Okay, I think he foresaw all along that Matt's last story might feature the Return of Amy's Crack (sorry - couldn't resist), but I think apart from that he had lots of little loose ends flailing around and created a story to resolve them. That is not good story-writing.
2. The team felt a need to showcase Matt's talent one last time. So they thought, get him to act old, get him to show a good range of emotion, give him a couple of really high quality speeches. Matt, of course, knocked everything they threw at him out of the park. But again, doing this doesn't make for good story-writing.
Matt's "moments" were pure gold, and genuinely moving. Jenna, too, played beautifully opposite him. But even so, they couldn't dispel the feeling that these were gorgeous set pieces withing a rather messy story.
I hope Moffat has learned a very important lesson from the last few years: don't overcomplicate. Complex, timey-wimey stories were great when he was writing Coupling, and work well for individual episodes of Doctor Who, but they become boring when they turn into season arcs and multi-season arcs. Nearly four years on, I don't care about Amy's Crack (sorry again); I don't care that "who blew up the TARDIS?" was unresolved at the end of that season. I don't really care that there were things unresolved relating to Madame Kovarian and The Silence. I wouldn't have minded much if we'd never seen Trenzalore again, and could have forgotten about it till he'd regenerated, say, another dozen times.
Still, in spite of all that, I liked The Time of the Doctor, mainly because I like Jenna Coleman and I think the show has been singularly blessed by the presence of Matt Smith.
And Pyx_e's Law still hold good.
--------------------
"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Rogue
Shipmate
# 2275
|
Posted
There is nothing wrong with unresolved loose ends. The twenty seventh Doctor could always do something with them.
--------------------
If everyone starts thinking outside the box does outside the box come back inside?
Posts: 2507 | From: Toton | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Taking into account Pyx_e's Law, which states, more or less, that Even bad Doctor Who is better than anything else on television, and also that saying this was "bad" Doctor Who would be overstating it considerably, I still think there were significant problems with The Time of the Doctor.
And what they boil down to, I think, are two things:
1. Moffat had loose ends that needed tying up. This is a problem if you've created the loose ends without deciding in advance how they're going to be tied up, and I strongly suspect this was the position Moffat was in. Okay, I think he foresaw all along that Matt's last story might feature the Return of Amy's Crack (sorry - couldn't resist), but I think apart from that he had lots of little loose ends flailing around and created a story to resolve them. That is not good story-writing.
2. The team felt a need to showcase Matt's talent one last time. So they thought, get him to act old, get him to show a good range of emotion, give him a couple of really high quality speeches. Matt, of course, knocked everything they threw at him out of the park. But again, doing this doesn't make for good story-writing.
Matt's "moments" were pure gold, and genuinely moving. Jenna, too, played beautifully opposite him. But even so, they couldn't dispel the feeling that these were gorgeous set pieces withing a rather messy story.
I hope Moffat has learned a very important lesson from the last few years: don't overcomplicate. Complex, timey-wimey stories were great when he was writing Coupling, and work well for individual episodes of Doctor Who, but they become boring when they turn into season arcs and multi-season arcs. Nearly four years on, I don't care about Amy's Crack (sorry again); I don't care that "who blew up the TARDIS?" was unresolved at the end of that season. I don't really care that there were things unresolved relating to Madame Kovarian and The Silence. I wouldn't have minded much if we'd never seen Trenzalore again, and could have forgotten about it till he'd regenerated, say, another dozen times.
Still, in spite of all that, I liked The Time of the Doctor, mainly because I like Jenna Coleman and I think the show has been singularly blessed by the presence of Matt Smith.
And Pyx_e's Law still hold good.
It does, but Moffat is pushing it a tad. As you rightly say, lots of good set pieces do not make a coherent story. The excellent bits were excellent - Smith's riff about us all being different people throughout our lives, the battles, the arrival of the new Doctor, Amy's farewell to the raggedy man ... And lots of filler like the Christmas dinner sub-plot.
Although Moffat explained a lot of things, there's still tons left to explore - has the new Doctor forgotten all 11's days and where did the Time Lords go?!
Our TiVo box stopped recording just as the regeneration started so Moffat's grand moment was interrupted by some frantic scrambling around on iPlayer, some muttered cuss words and some chuckling from the cheap seats.
Looking forward to the new season! Moffat says the next set of stories will be simpler - let's hope that's not code for more complicated, convoluted time nonsense stretched over multiple seasons.
Tubbs
--------------------
"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I hope Moffat has learned a very important lesson from the last few years: don't overcomplicate. Complex, timey-wimey stories were great when he was writing Coupling, and work well for individual episodes of Doctor Who, but they become boring when they turn into season arcs and multi-season arcs. Nearly four years on, I don't care about Amy's Crack (sorry again); I don't care that "who blew up the TARDIS?" was unresolved at the end of that season. I don't really care that there were things unresolved relating to Madame Kovarian and The Silence. I wouldn't have minded much if we'd never seen Trenzalore again, and could have forgotten about it till he'd regenerated, say, another dozen times.
But I suspect Moffat cares, and imagines the fans care too. And I can't help wondering whether it's a sign that the stories aren't as good as they could be that people generally don't care. In other words we should care about loose ends because if the stories are strong and tight then any loose ends will unravel key issues of character or plot.
But I think you're right that they need to not focus on that stuff. I think this is part of the mixed blessing of having a hard-core fan as a show-runner. He cares about things the enthusiastic but non-fan viewer doesn't. And those are the viewers that make up the vast majority of the audience that keep it on the air.
Any show that runs for more than a few episodes and is not merely procedural accumulates back-story. You see it all the time that shows in season 4 or 5 try to do things that are new or fresh and have to contradict (explicitly or not) stuff they laid down in season 1 or 2. If the show is a genre show then this earlier stuff is liable to be rules about how the world works. And however much this is true for other shows for Doctor Who with its 50 years of back-story...
I think if you want to pull this off you have to really go for it and make sure that what you get in exchange is worth it, really entertaining. If you're going to break continuity then do so boldly! (to paraphrase someone or other)
Posts: 3689 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
|
Posted
I finally got round to watching*, and neither my co-watcher, nor I were much impressed, compared with the 50th anniversary episode. It was bitty, and straggly, and not helpfully explanatory. In our opinion.
Having just found the Comic Relief episode starring loads of people afterwards, we preferred that.
*The first attempt at recording stopped shortly before the end, and, I think, Amy**. (I ran through fast to check, as I'd had power cuts.) **And was Amy wearing a wig?
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pine Marten
Shipmate
# 11068
|
Posted
Yes, both Karen and Matt wore wigs, as they had shaved their hair for current filming reasons. Moffat is quoted as saying that Karen's wig had been made from her own hair.
--------------------
Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde
Posts: 1731 | From: Isle of Albion | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
|
Posted
Every time I wonder why a Dr. Who episode has x or y continuity or logic error, I am reminded that this has always been so.
Some of it was good fun but it seemed rather too crammed with ideas - as if it was written by a committee where every member had to have a bit. i.e. the script needed a good editing.
And the whole "I'm a young female companion so I must be in love with him bit" really really really must stop. If I want a rom-com, I'll get out a DVD of anything involving Drew Barrymore from the last 20 years.
I also thought Moffat had a list of things that happened in the last two regeneration shows and wanted to get some of that stuff in:
Companion that is the bestest ever acknowledged as so - check
Destroying the Daleks, again - check
Making peace with all people encountered - check
Next guy doesn't know what he is doing - check
I still hope for a lot of adventure with the older dude but I have my doubts.
--------------------
I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
|
Posted
On a slight aside - I watch Dr Who at the Proms the other day. Most of the music was excellent, of course, but the standard action stuff.
However, the live performance of The Long Song must have disturbed the dust, because I felt something in my eye. It is still stunning, and a good example of how real quality music can be included in good SF shows.
The great story - with huge holes, but still great - and stunning music. that is DW showing what it does best.
--------------------
Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
And the whole "I'm a young female companion so I must be in love with him bit" really really really must stop. If I want a rom-com, I'll get out a DVD of anything involving Drew Barrymore from the last 20 years.
I've never really seen a romance element in Clara and Matt Smith's Doctor, they appear purely platonic to me. She tells her parents he's her boyfriend to get them off her back, she asks him to do it as a friend. Hence her so shocked by his nakedness. It's one of the things I like about Clara, I see her as a return to the traditional companion.
--------------------
'I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.' Douglas Adams
Dog Activity Monitor
My shop
Posts: 2831 | From: Trumpington | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
|
Posted
When they were under the influence of the truth field, didn't Clara blurt out something about travelling with the Doctor because she fancies him? It went by too quickly for me to catch but I thought there was something about that -- which I found a bit disappointing because up till then I'd been glad the Doctor/Clara thing wasn't getting all romantic. Hopefully bringing in Capaldi will change the dynamic.
On the topic of "tying up loose ends" -- I felt like this episode was entirely structured around the prophecy: "On the fields of Trenzalore, at the fall of the eleventh, when no living creature can speak falsely or fail to answer, a Question will be asked, a question that must never, ever be answered." It was a nice, mumbo-jumbo-y sounding prophecy but a terrible recipe for writing an episode -- especially a regeneration episode -- and especially a CHRISTMAS regeneration episode!
So it has to happen in a place called Trenzalore -- but as it's a Christmas episode, let's make it a town called Trenzalore on a planet called Christmas. And there has to be a war there, because it's the "fields of Trenzalore," and we have to put in a truth field for some reason so no one can speak falsely (although I thought they totally skipped over the "or fail to answer," bit; in essence, all the Doctor did there for 300+ years was fail to answer the question). And then they had to come up with a reason, first, why anyone would ever ask the question "Doctor Who" and second, why it was so vitally important not to answer it ... and somehow it had to all tie in to the "fall of the Eleventh." And ooh, did we mention it's Christmas? So as well as naming the town Christmas, better throw in a turkey dinner!
Once all that had been wedged in and loosely strung together, there wasn't much room left for coherence. I will admit though to crying a bit at Smith's farewell, even though he was never my favourite Doctor. Very glad they brought Amy back to say good-bye.
--------------------
Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
So it has to happen in a place called Trenzalore -- but as it's a Christmas episode, let's make it a town called Trenzalore on a planet called Christmas.
Other way around. Planet was Trenzalore (which we'd been to a couple of episodes ago), town was Christmas.
[ 30. December 2013, 10:58: Message edited by: orfeo ]
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
...
On the topic of "tying up loose ends" -- I felt like this episode was entirely structured around the prophecy: "On the fields of Trenzalore, at the fall of the eleventh, when no living creature can speak falsely or fail to answer, a Question will be asked, a question that must never, ever be answered." It was a nice, mumbo-jumbo-y sounding prophecy but a terrible recipe for writing an episode -- especially a regeneration episode -- and especially a CHRISTMAS regeneration episode!
...
But Clara answered the question by asking the Time Lords for help. It just wasn't the answer anyone was expecting. The Time Lords sent through the regeneration energy and then the crack shut. I'm totally confused about whether this means Gallifry / the Time Lords are back or not.
Tubbs
--------------------
"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Regeneration never used to be this much of a spectacle. In the old days, the Doctor quietly morphed into his new appearance and that was that. Now it's all seething flares of blazing golden light and writhing agony as his head dissolves.
Give it a few years more and there'll probably start to be some kind of fanfare and a dance routine before everybody runs for cover and the Doctor explodes noisily in a shower of gold and silver sparks, taking half the surroundings with him.
Isn't this the same with everything on TV (and, arguably in most of Western life) these days? It all has to be faster, noisier, more dramatic than ever before, or else it's B-O-R-I-N-G... I for one would prefer to return to a much slower paced life like it was in Dixon of Dock Green days. Now there's a thought for a future Dr. Who's Time Travel!
[ 30. December 2013, 16:13: Message edited by: Chorister ]
--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Regeneration never used to be this much of a spectacle. In the old days, the Doctor quietly morphed into his new appearance and that was that. Now it's all seething flares of blazing golden light and writhing agony as his head dissolves.
That's surely because the SFX and CG people can do it ... the electronic smoke and mirrors have got more complex and the budget has presumably grown, too!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
So it has to happen in a place called Trenzalore -- but as it's a Christmas episode, let's make it a town called Trenzalore on a planet called Christmas.
Other way around. Planet was Trenzalore (which we'd been to a couple of episodes ago), town was Christmas.
Absolutely right ... I knew the difference but I was typing faster than my brain was working!
And Clara may have "answered the question" by asking the Time Lords for help, but she only did that after the Doctor had been there alone for a very long time. My point is just that whatever mechanism ensured that the question MUST be answered, was obviously faulty, to allow him to stay there in the presence of the question but leave it unanswered for such a long time.
--------------------
Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I for one would prefer to return to a much slower paced life like it was in Dixon of Dock Green days. Now there's a thought for a future Dr. Who's Time Travel!
The question is, is the doorway of the Tardis high enough for the Doctor to be already wearing his helmet as he comes out, or will he have to carry it under his arm and carefully position it on his head before saying, "Evening, all"?
In any case, I think that most of the Doctor's assistants are more attractive than D.C. Andy Crawford ... but the ladies might disagree!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
And Clara may have "answered the question" by asking the Time Lords for help, but she only did that after the Doctor had been there alone for a very long time. My point is just that whatever mechanism ensured that the question MUST be answered, was obviously faulty, to allow him to stay there in the presence of the question but leave it unanswered for such a long time.
But it still had to be answered, before the Doctor could escape. There was no other way through the impasse. It didn't mean it had to be answered immediately, just that once it had been asked, there was no other way out.
That works for me, anyway. I am easily convinced.
--------------------
Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stumbling Pilgrim
Shipmate
# 7637
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
The question is, is the doorway of the Tardis high enough for the Doctor to be already wearing his helmet as he comes out, or will he have to carry it under his arm and carefully position it on his head before saying, "Evening, all"?
In any case, I think that most of the Doctor's assistants are more attractive than D.C. Andy Crawford ... but the ladies might disagree!
Well, bearing in mind the radio revival of 2008, it might not be entirely beyond the bounds of possibility ... (check out who's playing Andy Crawford)
--------------------
Stumbling in the Master's footsteps as best I can.
Posts: 492 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
|
Posted
And another thing, a tension in the episode was the uncertainty of whether the Doctor was going to die. We all knew that he wouldn't and, like in many episodes, there was the question of how he would get out of that mess. It would have been better if we hadn't known that there was going to be a next Doctor.
Imagine how boss it would have been to suddenly see Capaldi. We would have been just as shocked as Clara.
--------------------
The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
|
Posted
It would be wonderful if regenerations could be surprises, but I doubt that's possible in today's media world. Imagine if you didn't even know Matt Smith was quitting, much less who was replacing him, and then the shock of having the episode end like that! Was it ever like that in the original series, does anyone know? Or was it always known beforehand when the Doctor was going to regenerate, and as whom?
--------------------
Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Rogue
Shipmate
# 2275
|
Posted
When David Tennant started to re-generate at the end of an episode my first though was "how did they keep that quiet?" and very quickly my second thought was "brilliant!!!!". Then he didn't re-generate which wasn't a surprise, I suppose, but was a small disappointment.
--------------------
If everyone starts thinking outside the box does outside the box come back inside?
Posts: 2507 | From: Toton | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Rogue
Shipmate
# 2275
|
Posted
I watched Jon Pertwee, Tom Baker and Peter Davison re-generate and did not expect any of them.
--------------------
If everyone starts thinking outside the box does outside the box come back inside?
Posts: 2507 | From: Toton | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pine Marten:
Yes, both Karen and Matt wore wigs, as they had shaved their hair for current filming reasons. Moffat is quoted as saying that Karen's wig had been made from her own hair.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) I am getting a great deal of pleasure in imagining them rubbing each other's heads and baldy-bonding in the green room.
Aw, I like Karen. Maybe she didn't fit in with the poised, glamorous vision people had of the Companion,but I think she ans Smith sort of bring the kid out in each other, and I wish someone had capitalized on that.
Lots of people are stunning and glamorous. Not everyone can be glamorous but also shave their head bald and kill 'em on Saturday Night Live and zombify themselves (she talked some makeup folk form Walking Dead into it) and bowl a -- what was it, 265 game? Ah, the sandbagger. ![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
Haters go ahead and hate, but I know a kindred spirit when I see one. Karen is my kinda gal, no matter what she ends up doing.
--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
It would be wonderful if regenerations could be surprises, but I doubt that's possible in today's media world. Imagine if you didn't even know Matt Smith was quitting, much less who was replacing him, and then the shock of having the episode end like that! Was it ever like that in the original series, does anyone know? Or was it always known beforehand when the Doctor was going to regenerate, and as whom?
According to Philip Sandifer, the first one was a surprise, and what a surprise at that! Those viewers hadn't heard that Doctors can regenerate.
--------------------
The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Thread closed
Printer-friendly view
