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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hell: don't know why you girls aren't attracted to me...
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
So said Elliiot Roger before heading out to kill all those girls who weren't attracted to him.
I don't know yet exactly what to be furious about, but by golly we're gonna need a Hell thread for this one. Right now what's angering the most is the sense of entitlement. The sense that wanting a girl means he gets to have one. The sense that he can prove himself an 'alpha male' by ruining lives.
Who told him that being a virgin at 22 was so dreadful that the right response to it was murder, for fuck's sake? I was a virgin for over a decade longer than that, and yes at times it hurt like hell, but how did he get into the mindset that virgin at 22 meant virgin forever? Which, incidentally, he's now guaranteed.
And once again, what the fuck is wrong with a system that lets someone in this state have ready access to multiple guns?
[ 30. December 2014, 01:09: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Right now what's angering the most is the sense of entitlement.
I almost posted this on the rape culture thread. Because that's what it is - women have sex, and he wants it. It's not about an individual woman at all - any woman would just be a convenient arrangement of body parts.
To your last point, people who "go postal" rather often look normal right up to the point when they suddenly don't. It's possible that you couldn't have stopped this one without something close to a ban on the private ownership of weapons, which, even in California, is politically challenging.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Jesus Christ, what is it going to take? ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
News reports state the man was under psychiatric care, and had legally owned guns. Again.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
And once again, what the fuck is wrong with a system that lets someone in this state have ready access to multiple guns?
He had three interactions with law enforcement in the last year. They were:
July 21, 2013: He was in hospital with injuries consistent with being the victim of an assault.
Cops asked whodunnit.
January 15, 2014: He makes a citizen's arrest and calls cops on one of his roommates for stealing $22 worth of candles from him.
April 30, 2014: deputies came to his apartment in response to a welfare check request made by a relative, presumed to be his mother.
The only thing that's even slightly dodgy-looking is "my mom is worried about me", and on visiting him, the cops found him to be perfectly nice and normal.
Even with hindsight, it's hard to see this coming.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
News reports state the man was under psychiatric care, and had legally owned guns. Again.
Well, OK, but a rich Californian seeing a therapist hardly sticks out in a crowd, you know...
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
The uploading a previous video a few weeks prior regarding murder and suicide was a bit of a red flag.
But you are right, such events are very rare and therefore difficult to predict with certainty.
However, population measures can help such as, not permitting people who are actively psychiatrically unwell to have access to firearms, and getting health professionals rather than police officers to assess risk associated with mental disturbance.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
So said Elliiot Roger before heading out to kill all those girls who weren't attracted to him.
... how did he get into the mindset that virgin at 22 meant virgin forever? Which, incidentally, he's now guaranteed.
Maybe in the next world there will be a rusty farm implement awaiting him.
This counts as a hate crime against women. It doesn't count as a poor kid with AS going off the rails. It is as much a hate crime as the shooting in the Jewish museum in Brussels yesterday.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
This came out a few days ago, when the authors were discussing it on Radio 4 they were careful to point out that most people with ASD are less likely to be violent than the rest of the population.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Right now what's angering the most is the sense of entitlement. The sense that wanting a girl means he gets to have one. The sense that he can prove himself an 'alpha male' by ruining lives.
I can't understand how the hell he thought killing unsuspecting unarmed individuals with a deadly weapon would make him an 'alpha male' in any sense whatever. He's going to be permanently remembered as a pathetic spoiled jerk who had an epic tantrum because he didn't get what he wanted. That's about as far from 'alpha male' as you can get, I reckon.
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
The cause of the murders wasn't Rodgers's position on the autistic spectrum, it was his violent misogyny. He was linked up to the same kind of male supremacy sites that Alex Cockell is forever citing in Purgatory.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
No its not causal, and the article doesn't suggest that. It is suggesting a complex profile of risk factors.
Current psychiatric disturbance would be more relevant to acute risk.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
No its not causal, and the article doesn't suggest that. It is suggesting a complex profile of risk factors.
Current psychiatric disturbance would be more relevant to acute risk.
What you seem to be saying, Doublethink might be paraphrased as,
'Move along, folks, nothing to see here. No cause for anger, more cause for sorrow, more sinned against than sinning etc etc.'
To which I say--to Hell with that. It almost makes me glad that so many of these insane misogynists are 40 stone and upwards and therefore less mobile. (Edited to add: there are lots of lovely, kind, morbidly obese people out there, like that nice Mexican man, what's his name. I don't mean to tar all vast men with the same brush...)
[ 25. May 2014, 08:16: Message edited by: Amos ]
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
This came out a few days ago, when the authors were discussing it on Radio 4 they were careful to point out that most people with ASD are less likely to be violent than the rest of the population.
I'm glad you pointed out that second part, because this thread immediately made me think of a young autistic guy I know, and I was hesitant to post because I don't want to give the impression that people with ASD are likely to be violent. They really aren't in general - but it does happen, just as anyone can be violent. It's the reasoning that's more of an issue here, I suspect.
Actually, the guy I know isn't violent, and I very much doubt he ever will be. But he suffers a lot with depression and bitterness and resentment because of the very reasoning expressed in the title of the thread. He can't get a girlfriend and he's a virgin in his early twenties, and he hates girls as a result.
He blames them for being so 'shallow' that they can't look beyond his disability and fall in love with him, and he also curses the unfairness of the world for giving him this disability. I've tried to talk to him about it (in reality he doesn't actually hate girls - he considers me a friend and I'm female, and he has other female friends - but he somehow doesn't know how else to process this whole frustration). His brain is somehow unable to compute that this isn't something the girls are doing to spite him or because they are evil. I know it sounds like a ridiculous sense of entitlement, but it's something he really can't get his head round.
I've tried to talk logically with him - I ask him if he likes himself and he says he hates himself. So I ask why he would want to impose himself on a girl if he sees himself as such a hateful person. He is actually incredibly intelligent in terms of IQ, but when it comes to this kind of social reasoning, he really struggles. I feel bad for him, and hope that in time he will develop more understanding and a wider perspective.
No other autistic person I know has his attitude, so it's not like it's an intrinisically autistic attitude. It's more that his difficulty with social understanding has combined with a lot of anger from being bullied as a kid, and has somehow produced this very warped logic.
Not that this makes it okay for someone to go round killing girls for not being attracted to him - it is of course awful and shocking - but it's likely to be result from a very disturbed, depressed, self-hating mind, which also is simply unable to process the mechanisms behind social interaction.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
I can't understand how the hell he thought killing unsuspecting unarmed individuals with a deadly weapon would make him an 'alpha male' in any sense whatever.
Well, Hollywood alpha males solve their problems by firing lots of ammunition at the baddies. Whether the baddies are armed is incidental seeing as how the baddies are such terrible shots anyway.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
To which I say--to Hell with that. It almost makes me glad that so many of these insane misogynists are 40 stone and upwards and therefore less mobile.
This is ridiculous - and a bit unfair (even for hell) when Alex has been suspended and so can't defend himself. He doesn't resent girls for not dating him. He is frightened by the idea of feminism, because he sees feminism as what has stopped people acknowledging or taking seriously the abuse he suffered at the hands of girls. And his autism makes it hard for him to see the subtleties of feminism and its positive aspects and the bigger picture in general. Yes, it's warped logic, based on difficulties understanding, but he is not the slightest bit inclined to violence.
You might as well say the same about the gay members of the ship because some gay chap who was bullied horrifically as a kid for being gay has gone murdering innocent people because he thought they were being homophobic. It's a stupid leap of logic to make.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
When I saw the video, I thought he looked very ill in some way. You can't diagnose people off a video, but in technical jargon, mad as a hatter. Not really connected with his autism, is it?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
So this kid was brought up in the make-believe world of Hollywood. He was born with a mental illness, something that would be challenging anywhere else.
This is irrelevant to the fact that he seems to have a sense of entitlement towards women that is also something we see a lot of in Hollywood (and California more generally as well). His access to guns (because they make everyone safer, of course) meant that his acting out of this was lethal.
I suspect that many others in an entitled position who cannot manage a relationship also feel the frustration, I suspect that some of them express this by raping girls. That gets far less press coverage, but also devastated lives.
The real problem here is, IMO, a) the ridiculous sense of entitlement that some people have and b) the access to weapons meaning that the expression of this is deadly.
Of course, both of these are so intrinsic to the culture of the US, they will not be directly addressed. Rather the blame will be deflected onto his mental illness, or all sorts of other aspects.
Oh, and his hatred of women, as something endemic in the culture he was brought up in, will be glossed over, with lots of comments that "not all men are like that". Not all mentally ill are dangerous. Not all children of Hollywood producers behave like this.
One did, and young women are dead because of it. Something needs to change.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
It seems odd to me to say that this will be 'blamed on his mental illness'. As I said, to me, he looks a very ill individual; of course, not all ill people go and kill others. The gun factor is of course very relevant.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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ecumaniac
Ship's whipping girl
# 376
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Posted
Oh fuck the lot of them (ie don't fuck them).
I was a virgin till my 30s you don't see me going off about it.
Anyone else want to claim that rape culture isn't a thing?!
Edit: Damn tablet
[ 25. May 2014, 09:43: Message edited by: ecumaniac ]
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it's a secret club for people with a knitting addiction, hiding under the cloak of BDSM - Catrine
Posts: 2901 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Jun 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
To which I say--to Hell with that. It almost makes me glad that so many of these insane misogynists are 40 stone and upwards and therefore less mobile.
This is ridiculous - and a bit unfair (even for hell) when Alex has been suspended and so can't defend himself. He doesn't resent girls for not dating him. He is frightened by the idea of feminism, because he sees feminism as what has stopped people acknowledging or taking seriously the abuse he suffered at the hands of girls. And his autism makes it hard for him to see the subtleties of feminism and its positive aspects and the bigger picture in general. Yes, it's warped logic, based on difficulties understanding, but he is not the slightest bit inclined to violence.
You might as well say the same about the gay members of the ship because some gay chap who was bullied horrifically as a kid for being gay has gone murdering innocent people because he thought they were being homophobic. It's a stupid leap of logic to make.
I echo fineline's thoughts.
We don't ban shitty personal attacks in Hell, but even by our standards that's a pretty shitty personal attack. Alex is losing weight. So what are you going to say to him, "hey Alex, don't lose weight, I don't think it'll improve your self-esteem, I just think it'll make you mobile enough to attack people"?
That's both horrible and bloody stupid.
It also completely ignores that the issue here isn't just having difficulty with women, the issue here is what you do about that difficulty. There are reasonable solutions and horribly sick and twisted ones. It also ignores that in the UK, getting hold of a weapon to do something like this with is really difficult.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
When I saw the video, I thought he looked very ill in some way. You can't diagnose people off a video, but in technical jargon, mad as a hatter. Not really connected with his autism, is it?
No, autism isn't a mental illness. But it sometimes can co-occur with psychosis. Also when the social difficulties caused by autism are met by bullying/oppression/hatred/etc, an autistic person can (just as any victimised person can) develop mental health issues and anger issues. And it may be harder for an autistic person to process these experiences, without some kind of help, because difficulty processing feelings is one of the characteristics of autism.
So the autism may make a person have faulty reasoning with regards to social subtleties, and occasionally come to bizarre conclusions about others, and it may make a person more likely to be bullied and also have more difficulty processing their feelings about this. But it would be some kind of illness (which may or may not be contributed to by these difficulties) that would lead to killing people.
Trouble with these situations is that they are likely to be a whole combination of things, and we can never fully understand it. And often the person was in dire need of help and support that they weren't getting.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Fineline
Yes, I was just going off the video and some of his written stuff. I've worked a lot with ill people, and boy, does he look ill to me. I would hazard a guess that he was going through a psychotic episode, but for some reason, it wasn't picked up. Of course, the gun thing exacerbates the whole thing.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
Trouble with these situations is that they are likely to be a whole combination of things, and we can never fully understand it. And often the person was in dire need of help and support that they weren't getting.
Yes, absolutely.
But put free, unfettered access to guns into the mix and things get 1000 times worse.
All I could think was "When will they ever learn?"
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Invictus_88
Shipmate
# 15352
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Posted
Really quite sad that the social expectation in our society is that young people will, should, must have sex to be normal/popular/successful.
This apart, there are surely prostitutes in California? All it would have taken was an unfiltered google and he could relax about being a virgin.
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ecumaniac
Ship's whipping girl
# 376
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Posted
Unfortunately, these sorts of men think that they are entitled to FREE sex. They don't want to pay for it by working on improving their personality, their looks* and their social or sexual skills, and they certainly don't want to pay for it with money.
*I don't refer to losing weight here. I mean things like getting a good haircut, dressing well etc. For men as well as women, physical attractiveness can be increased with a bit of effort, and 'pretty/handsome' is a skill, not an innate trait.
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it's a secret club for people with a knitting addiction, hiding under the cloak of BDSM - Catrine
Posts: 2901 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Jun 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
.... the cops found him to be perfectly nice and normal.
Even with hindsight, it's hard to see this coming.
Some many times we find that 'perfectly nice and normal' people are capable of pointing a gun at someone's face and pulling the trigger.
It's a hugely disturbing fact if one dwells on it for too long .
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
Should be pointed out that his first 3 victims were his male housemates.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
All very sad and deeply shocking.
IMO speculation about any 'reason' for this tragedy is futile and arguing about guns, therapy, psychological labels, etc, can only be a sideshow.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
Should be pointed out that his first 3 victims were his male housemates.
I suspect in reality it was due to a lot more than women not being attracted to him. People often use that to describe a much deeper loneliness and unhappiness, to which they assume the answer is a partner who loves them (and the media tends to feed into this delusion). I've seen this in both men and women - it's generally not just about wanting sex, but thinking a partner will fulfill them and solve all their problems. But of course, with that kind of neediness any relationship will be dysfunctional and won't work out, thus adding to the sense of victimisation.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
This reminds me of Cho, who carried out the Virginia Tech shootings. I know quite a lot about it because it happened here.
Cho suffered from selective mutism. He never spoke, even to the men who shared a suite of rooms with him for more than a year. At first they invited him to go out to restaurants with them; he wouldn't say anything, but he would put on his coat and go. Once, in a restaurant, one of the other men saw a woman he knew, and introduced her to Cho. Cho immediately began stalking her. After that, his suitemates stopped making friendly overtures. He also used his cellphone to photograph the legs of women who were in his classes.
I think his problem was that he knew he could never make normal social contact with a woman, and he had a normal young man's sex drive. When someone finds themselves in this kind of situation, they have to decide what to do. Cho decided to slaughter people.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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ecumaniac
Ship's whipping girl
# 376
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Posted
Too bad he didn't just kill himself first.
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it's a secret club for people with a knitting addiction, hiding under the cloak of BDSM - Catrine
Posts: 2901 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Jun 2001
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Wesley J
Silly Shipmate
# 6075
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Posted
To adapt a quote from the singing self-claimed Mother of God: Like a virgin, shot for the very first time. (And quite permanently at that, as mentioned above.)
Will he be one of the 72 virgins that certain suicide bombers find after perpetrating their ghastly deed? They'll all be in for a bit of a shock, I think.
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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)
Posts: 7354 | From: The Isles of Silly | Registered: May 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wesley J:
from the singing self-claimed Mother of God:
There are several stupid things in your post, but let's just focus on this one. You do know that Madonna is the name given to her at birth by her parents, yes?
Actually, you probably don't know that, otherwise you wouldn't be idiotic enough to suggest that she self-claimed it for religious imagery.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
All very sad and deeply shocking.
IMO speculation about any 'reason' for this tragedy is futile and arguing about guns, therapy, psychological labels, etc, can only be a sideshow.
I don't see why the psychological stuff is a sideshow. I know people like this guy who were sectioned and medicated, before they could act out their fantasies. I think that's preferable, although some people inevitably slip through the net.
But I have no idea how it works in the US, I mean whether the equivalent of sectioning applies or not.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
Frankly, the guy himself doesn't worry me as much as some of the responses to him and to his video -- a few examples are captured here. The number of people who are going to have the right toxic cocktail of anger, mental imbalance, access to weapons and whatever the horrific missing ingredient that makes people do this is, is always (mercifully) going to be pretty small, though that's no excuse not to keep constantly trying to make it smaller.
But the men who empathize with a guy like this, who somehow believe that he has a "right" to sex because he's "a nice guy" and that his rage is justified because women didn't give it to him -- their numbers are legion, and that's what really horrifies me.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
Frankly, the guy himself doesn't worry me as much as some of the responses to him and to his video -- a few examples are captured here. The number of people who are going to have the right toxic cocktail of anger, mental imbalance, access to weapons and whatever the horrific missing ingredient that makes people do this is, is always (mercifully) going to be pretty small, though that's no excuse not to keep constantly trying to make it smaller.
But the men who empathize with a guy like this, who somehow believe that he has a "right" to sex because he's "a nice guy" and that his rage is justified because women didn't give it to him -- their numbers are legion, and that's what really horrifies me.
Yes, pretty horrific. The toxic cocktail comment is interesting, and I suppose you could write volumes on this. I agree about anger and mental imbalance; I think also people like this have a lot of self-hatred. In a sense, they hate their own desire, and therefore the object of their desire, who (inevitably) rejects their desire.
Well, it's not going to help now, but if you can catch these people before they act out, you can get into their fantasy system, and stop them acting out. The problem is whether you can catch them, especially if they have a 'smooth' persona.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Well, my wife just said, all this misogyny and hatred of sex, comes straight from the patriarchal system, and of course, from Christianity. Not sure about that.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
Frankly, the guy himself doesn't worry me as much as some of the responses to him and to his video -- a few examples are captured here. The number of people who are going to have the right toxic cocktail of anger, mental imbalance, access to weapons and whatever the horrific missing ingredient that makes people do this is, is always (mercifully) going to be pretty small, though that's no excuse not to keep constantly trying to make it smaller.
But the men who empathize with a guy like this, who somehow believe that he has a "right" to sex because he's "a nice guy" and that his rage is justified because women didn't give it to him -- their numbers are legion, and that's what really horrifies me.
Exactly this.
What it feels like is that women can be horrified till the cows come home, and this "legion" will only increase the contempt. Time and again I have seen the application of one strong , respected male voice cool this shit right down. So, IMO, what we really need is for the guys who have genuinely earned the term "nice guy" --that is, they are nice because they genuinely want to be good people, not to score points-- to speak the hell up.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
but how did he get into the mindset that virgin at 22 meant virgin forever? Which, incidentally, he's now guaranteed.
Not according to movies about prison.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I read the guy's 'manifesto', and it amazed me that he kept seeing counselors and psychiatrists, and apparently nobody noticed that the guy was becoming seriously ill. The police actually came round, when he posted some disturbing videos on Youtube, but it seems he was able to smooth-talk them. I think by the end, he was becoming psychotic, but nobody noticed, partly because he was so isolated, as his old friends had fled, no doubt horrified by him. He should have been sectioned and medicated, and nobody would have died.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
but how did he get into the mindset that virgin at 22 meant virgin forever? Which, incidentally, he's now guaranteed.
Not according to movies about prison.
Hardly relevant, since he's dead.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
I'm not sure if the prison rape allusion was meant to be a joke, but if so, it's a sick one.
In sny case, in Trudy's link, the video author wrote an essay defending his position. It kicks ass.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I read the guy's 'manifesto', and it amazed me that he kept seeing counselors and psychiatrists, and apparently nobody noticed that the guy was becoming seriously ill. The police actually came round, when he posted some disturbing videos on Youtube, but it seems he was able to smooth-talk them. I think by the end, he was becoming psychotic, but nobody noticed, partly because he was so isolated, as his old friends had fled, no doubt horrified by him. He should have been sectioned and medicated, and nobody would have died.
But posting disturbing videos on YouTube is not a crime, and getting someone sectioned is a hell of a lot of work (as it should be), and if you can just walk away from this guy, why would you bother?
A good bit of this stems from a deep-seated misogyny, which sickness runs deep through our society. Becoming a less misogynous society could make guys like this less likely to snap -- growing up in America as an awkward male, you have a ready-made excuse for why you can't seem to turn ladies' heads -- there's something wrong with THEM.
As for autism, a young autistic boy of our acquaintance thought in 6th or 7th grade that everything anybody did that inconvenienced him was done to spite him. It took years of counseling for him to realize people had their own thoughts that by and large had nothing to do with him. If you add this handicap -- and it is a handicap -- to deep-seated societal misogyny and what appears to be psychosis, it can add up to a deadly mixture. As here.
To Kelly: I think I would qualify as one of your "nice guys." I don't know what you are asking for "us" to say. My advice on the subject of "getting women to like you and be interested in you" would be: become a likeable and interesting person. Just because you're a nice guy doesn't mean you're attractive or can expect to be a Don Juan. Nice isn't enough; you need to be likeable, and you need to be interesting. And seething with misogyny is not likeable.
[ 25. May 2014, 16:04: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
You do a lot of shouting against misogynistic rhetoric. That's pretty much what I meant. Keep it up, and God willing younger, more undecided men will follow that example.
And thank you. Orfeo, you too.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
mousethief
Yes, fair enough. I think no-one had realized how mad this guy had become; I suppose there are various reasons for that, for example, he had become very isolated. Also, he may have been very good at presenting a normal persona.
A lot of the misogyny is down to Christianity, isn't it?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
To add: (obvously this is directed at certain heterosexual males, such as the guest of honor of this thread)
If all you think of women is as a place to stick your dick, then it would only be because the world is a grossly unjust place if you don't get exactly what you deserve, which is just slightly less than one-half of nothing. If all you want is to "get laid," then any woman in the world should consider herself lucky if she never comes within five miles of you. And if you feel you are entitled to have some woman fall in bed with you, you are a disgusting vermin who is unworthy of the company of any human being, let alone a woman.
ETA:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
A lot of the misogyny is down to Christianity, isn't it?
I believe so, yes.
[ 25. May 2014, 16:17: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
And qs far as the Nice Guy thing-- what I tell Neph is that having character isn't about impressing anyone, male or female-- it's about making sure you are the kind of person you enjoy hanging out with, because that you will do, no matter what, for the rest if your life.
Whoever said it up there is right-- we lay so much emphasis on partnering off we set people up to be miserable. Our culture uses our desire for sex to sell us stuff, but perhaps even more so it uses our desire for companionship. And a lot of our cultural stories imply that companionship is the ultimate reward for virtue. It's a set-up, and also dilutes a person's ability to appreciate themselves for simply being a good person.
[crosspost-- BRAVO! ]
[ 25. May 2014, 16:18: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Don't have the time to formulate a response right niw, so just dropping this off here:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I finally found my nugget for the day - Christianity is rape culture! Oh-me-oh-my-oh-dee-oh-die.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
Frankly, the guy himself doesn't worry me as much as some of the responses to him and to his video -- a few examples are captured here. The number of people who are going to have the right toxic cocktail of anger, mental imbalance, access to weapons and whatever the horrific missing ingredient that makes people do this is, is always (mercifully) going to be pretty small, though that's no excuse not to keep constantly trying to make it smaller.
But the men who empathize with a guy like this, who somehow believe that he has a "right" to sex because he's "a nice guy" and that his rage is justified because women didn't give it to him -- their numbers are legion, and that's what really horrifies me.
Exactly this.
What it feels like is that women can be horrified till the cows come home, and this "legion" will only increase the contempt. Time and again I have seen the application of one strong , respected male voice cool this shit right down. So, IMO, what we really need is for the guys who have genuinely earned the term "nice guy" --that is, they are nice because they genuinely want to be good people, not to score points-- to speak the hell up.
I wouldn't quibble with that, Kelly, but frequently that sort of mindless hate talk exists (and is tolerated) in places that the better-meaning find profoundly uncongenial. They don't do anything because they are elsewhere. If people started posting that sort of shit here and it seemed tolerated, I would be out of here like greased lightning, and I'll bet many others - male and female - would too.
I suppose there's something to be said for poking your nose into these places, but in the end it does your head in. And you can easily get sucked into unrealistic polarized views, however nuanced your original position. tumblr itself seems to attract a lot of the mentally obsessive types.
Well, that's my excuse. Even though I'm not sure "nice" is something I'd claim for myself.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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