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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hell: don't know why you girls aren't attracted to me...
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Sure. SioniSais suggested above that 'awareness' is a better term, and I'm good with that. But whatever, guilt works for me, and so does shame.
Yorick, as long as it's only projected inwards, not outwards. I think there's a huge danger in judging by association just because someone belongs to a certain group (even if that person is yourself). Careful you don't take that reasoning and use it elsewhere. It's that kind of thinking that causes a lot of these problems in the first place ("Woman X rejected me, therefore all women should be punished", "Western governments have committed evils, therefore all westerners are legitimate targets", "Some muslims are extremists therefore all muslims are extremeists"). I'd rather we didn't add "some men are rapists therefore the guilt and shame is upon all men" to that list.
(edit: added quote, as this is the top of the page)
[ 30. May 2014, 14:14: Message edited by: goperryrevs ]
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
That’s a very good point. I’m genuinely in two minds about this. One one hand, I feel that if all men took a sort of corporate responsibility towards not raping and murdering women because of our maleness, it would help, and that we are only likely to do so if we all include ourselves in the group of murdering rapists. On the other hand I see how feelings of guilt can backfire in a minority of cases. I wonder which you (and quetzy, perhaps) feel would be the lesser evil in terms of outcome in murder-rape, probability wise.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
My mother lived in Santa Barbara in the late 20th century. In the 1980s, my brother got two degrees from the university and lived in the Isla Vista neighbourhood. The mindless advocates of hand-held deadly weapons with access to all are to blame. These evil people have ruined this country and made it unsafe.
It makes me want to move to Canada, the UK or Ireland if only we could find jobs and housing there and learn to tolerate the snow!
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
From my point of view: corporate influence, awareness, modelling a different way... all that stuff, I'm up for. Responsibility, I'm not so sure. Guilt and shame are a big no-no.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Yorick, I meant "weak" as in the argument is weak.
Actually, that's how I took it, but thank you for your gracious apology for the possibility that I didn't.
Generalising like this has its weaknesses and strengths, but it's certainly easier to change general things if you look at the general principles.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
That’s a very good point. I’m genuinely in two minds about this. One one hand, I feel that if all men took a sort of corporate responsibility towards not raping and murdering women because of our maleness, it would help, and that we are only likely to do so if we all include ourselves in the group of murdering rapists. On the other hand I see how feelings of guilt can backfire in a minority of cases. I wonder which you (and quetzy, perhaps) feel would be the lesser evil in terms of outcome in murder-rape, probability wise.
I think it's telling other people that they are guilty, that can backfire, as you are in effect, blaming them. Blaming people tends to get their backs up, so there are other ways of describing responsibility and awareness.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
My point (in reply to Pyxe's post about mums) is how especially fathers can and should influence their young sons not to objectify women sexually, and that the first step here is to recognise that natural and inevitable testicle-bound tendency (to objectivise women) in ourselves.
Educating against nature is like pissing into the wind...
As usual, I find the traditional approach much more sensible. I refer here to the traditional answer to wherein consists "adultery of the heart", which is condemned by Jesus as equivalent to actual adultery. That's a highly similar concern, if it is not simply a flowery and old-fashioned version of the same. I'll write the following from a man's perspective, but of course the same is true vice versa for women.
The basic idea there is that the initial look at a woman's breasts or ass or whatever body part you prefer, or indeed the initial thought of having sex with her, or the initial phantasy of an imaginary woman doing something erotic is not sinful. Rather, it is a challenge, a question asked of you. It is simply something bubbling up in your mind, a sexual impulse. At this point it is not something you as a person do, are responsible for, it is something happening to you. The moral question, as always, is what you do when things are happening to you, how you react. So if your gaze dwells on that breast or ass, if you think through how you would have sex with her, if you embellish the erotic phantasy, then you are committing adultery of the heart. Then you have taken over the sexual impulse and made it your own, so now it is your responsibility. But if you rather move your gaze, stop thinking about having sex or let go of the erotic phantasy, then no guilt whatever attaches to you. In fact, this will have been mildly meritorious, since you have virtuously dealt with a sinful challenge.
That of course is something one can try to teach children. But note the subtle difference. There is no intention there to suppress the initial objectification (to switch back to our modern version). There is also no statement that the person that is doing this initial objectification is particularly bad due to this act. (Traditionally one would say that this is part of disordered human nature after the fall, but that is a general comment which does not attach blame to the specific act.) There is a simple acceptance that this sort of thing will happen, and frequently at that. The focus is exclusively on what we do with this impulse. The focus is on what we do next.
I agree with this approach. Breast-beating and crying "woe onto me, objectifier of women" will get us men nowhere; and teaching our sons that they are bad people if they look at boobs, rather the person behind them, will just make them hate themselves. Because they sure as heck are going to do just that, and often. And hating yourself very easily flips over into hating what causes you to hate yourself, and then things can get dangerous. For women. No, I say with tradition: Fine, you have looked at the boobs. Notice that. Snap out of it. Move on. Perhaps chat to the owner of the boobs, there's an idea. If you do get on with your life, then no harm done. All clear. But if your eyes stay with the boobs, then you will have only boobs on your mind - and that quite generally leads to a worse world, and one in which boobs will typically elude you at that...
[ 30. May 2014, 16:56: Message edited by: IngoB ]
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
Yup, that's very much how I'd handle the approach to teaching my boys, though without the 'sin' and 'virtue' religious handles, obviously. But yes, nicely put.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
My point (in reply to Pyxe's post about mums) is how especially fathers can and should influence their young sons not to objectify women sexually, and that the first step here is to recognise that natural and inevitable testicle-bound tendency (to objectivise women) in ourselves.
Educating against nature is like pissing into the wind...
As usual, I find the traditional approach much more sensible. I refer here to the traditional answer to wherein consists "adultery of the heart", which is condemned by Jesus as equivalent to actual adultery. That's a highly similar concern, if it is not simply a flowery and old-fashioned version of the same. I'll write the following from a man's perspective, but of course the same is true vice versa for women.
The basic idea there is that the initial look at a woman's breasts or ass or whatever body part you prefer, or indeed the initial thought of having sex with her, or the initial phantasy of an imaginary woman doing something erotic is not sinful. Rather, it is a challenge, a question asked of you. It is simply something bubbling up in your mind, a sexual impulse. At this point it is not something you as a person do, are responsible for, it is something happening to you. The moral question, as always, is what you do when things are happening to you, how you react. So if your gaze dwells on that breast or ass, if you think through how you would have sex with her, if you embellish the erotic phantasy, then you are committing adultery of the heart. Then you have taken over the sexual impulse and made it your own, so now it is your responsibility. But if you rather move your gaze, stop thinking about having sex or let go of the erotic phantasy, then no guilt whatever attaches to you. In fact, this will have been mildly meritorious, since you have virtuously dealt with a sinful challenge.
That of course is something one can try to teach children. But note the subtle difference. There is no intention there to suppress the initial objectification (to switch back to our modern version). There is also no statement that the person that is doing this initial objectification is particularly bad due to this act. (Traditionally one would say that this is part of disordered human nature after the fall, but that is a general comment which does not attach blame to the specific act.) There is a simple acceptance that this sort of thing will happen, and frequently at that. The focus is exclusively on what we do with this impulse. The focus is on what we do next.
I agree with this approach. Breast-beating and crying "woe onto me, objectifier of women" will get us men nowhere; and teaching our sons that they are bad people if they look at boobs, rather the person behind them, will just make them hate themselves. Because they sure as heck are going to do just that, and often. And hating yourself very easily flips over into hating what causes you to hate yourself, and then things can get dangerous. For women. No, I say with tradition: Fine, you have looked at the boobs. Notice that. Snap out of it. Move on. Perhaps chat to the owner of the boobs, there's an idea. If you do get on with your life, then no harm done. All clear. But if your eyes stay with the boobs, then you will have only boobs on your mind - and that quite generally leads to a worse world, and one in which boobs will typically elude you at that...
Gee, Bingo, you keep making my points for me.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
And I actually think I am getting that example of decent men struggling with the issue in a decent manner I was longing for earlier. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Pyx-- I promise you I have some things to say about the role of early childcare in bolstering misogyny-- what women in childcare are doing to help it specifically-- and this will involve what IngoB said about men having to prove themselves through violence. It's just-- the connections I am making are so complex that I know it's gonna need to be a blog entry which I link. But I do have some specific observations of how a boy's ability to be successful socially in academically is eroded by how we treat early childhood education and early elementary education.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
( confession time) One piece of evidence for the presence of a huge animus in me is ... I totally do the boob- gaze. Large breasted women? Eyes straight to rack. Move them away? Back to rack. Not a thought crosses my head about the matter, the eyes just wind up there.
And then I sit there and go "Oh God, I hope she didn't notice that, I am acting like some frat boy." Eyes on face. My mind wanders. (About anything, usually nothing sexual, unless that is the subject under discussion.) I come back to the present. Eyes are on boobs. IT JUST HAPPENS.
Does this resonate?
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
BTW welcome back Yorick. I agree strongly that it is incumbent upon fathers to teach their sons most emphatically that girls and women should be treated as 3D human persons and not objectified and treated like non-persons or sub-persons.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
I'm so dismayed by the terrible sexual violence of men. I feel a strong sense of corporate shame, just for being a man.
please no.
I know the conversation has moved on somewhat but I have to address this. (forgive me, it's been a slow morning)
Yorick, my boys are older than yours. Also, I only have testicles in the metaphorical sense ![[Biased]](wink.gif) and can't directly relate. But I have some observations.
My 12 year old is dealing with massive amounts of guilt and shame, just for being male. The girls he played with happily a few months ago he now has sexual thoughts about, and it freaks him out. He is ashamed of his urges and has turned this into a form of self-hatred that scares the shit out of me. He will randomly say things about his being "disgusting" or "perverted" not because he has done anything wrong, but because of his blossoming libido. And it goes beyond that to his saying things along the line of all men being sick and twisted or dirty, and recently even apologized to me for misogyny.
He is TWELVE.
My older son was not quite as willing to turn this on himself, but that sense of corporate guilt is there for him, too. In his case, it has come out of his being friends with girls who are abused, and like you he feels somehow at fault for what his fellow males have done. This just kills me.
These are boys. their sexual urges are natural and hard-wired. As parents (and members of the community, generally) we need to teach them not to victimize others from the pressure of these urges, but do we need to teach them that there is something "perverted" or wrong about their own bodies? Because they can't win that fight.
And it's just swinging the pendulum too far in the other direction. As girls, we end up getting taught a huge amount of shame for our bodies and it is so damaging. When I developed breasts, I felt disgusting. suddenly I had become a sexual person when I had no interest in being that. I had "boobies" and all of a sudden I went from being the wild child of the woods, running with huskies and playing in mud, to some sort of temptress. I felt evil.
I, as a mother, cannot stand to see this also happen to boys. particularly MY boys. Because they are wonderful awesome smart thoughtful kind young men who have so much to offer the world.
Life is full of bumps and bruises and mistakes, and we all fuck up. I try to teach these kids that if you screw up, you atone for it. you apologize and you do whatever is possible to fix what damage you've done.
But this concept of "corporate guilt" gives them a wrong that they cannot fix. When that happens, they turn the pain inward and hate themselves. And isn't self-hatred one of the core issues we're addressing here? Elliot Roger didn't go on a shooting spree because of a healthy sense of self-worth. His language might have sounded like that, but people talk like that when they're terrified and filled with self-loathing. look at any bully ever.
YES our boys need to be aware of the harm that can come. They need to feel empathy for those who've been wronged. They need to feel enough of a sense of responsibility for our global community to work to fix the harm however they can. But please let's not pile shame on them for something they have not done.
Awareness. Empathy. Restraint. but no shame.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
( confession time) One piece of evidence for the presence of a huge animus in me is ... I totally do the boob- gaze. Large breasted women? Eyes straight to rack. Move them away? Back to rack. Not a thought crosses my head about the matter, the eyes just wind up there.
And then I sit there and go "Oh God, I hope she didn't notice that, I am acting like some frat boy." Eyes on face. My mind wanders. (About anything, usually nothing sexual, unless that is the subject under discussion.) I come back to the present. Eyes are on boobs. IT JUST HAPPENS.
Does this resonate?
Yes, except it's not just large breasted women, and it's not just breasts. There is a part of the male brain (or at least, I can only speak for mine) that is uncontrollable, that immediately objectifies pretty much every woman you meet and assesses them sexually. So you have to develop a massive amount of self control to just ignore that animal part of your psyche and behave like a grown up. But it is always there. It never goes away, or at least it hasn't for me yet.
Which is why Ingo's post is totally spot on, and why the stuff Jesus said is so helpful.
You can't stop that initial impulse, temptation, but you can choose what you do about it. And even when you struggle with that, you can still choose to relate to someone as a human being, rather than a piece of sexy flesh. But it's not easy, and every straight bloke I've ever talked about it honestly with has the same struggles. It's the hardest temptation of all. For example, in my corridor at work there is a lovely woman, who happens to have the finest ass I've ever seen. If she walks past, it takes a gargantuan effort of self control not to at least have a quick look at its beauty. And then, on top of all that there's the fact that our culture is swamped with images of beautiful women to sell products - which works because of all this. And the easy access porn. Temptation abounds. And if temptation was sin, then straight Catholic men would spend the vast majority of their lives in the confessional. But, as Ingo says, it's not, and the battle ground is how we handle our natural urges of objectification, it's not eliminating them altogether. That is honestly impossible.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) Not sure if I am ready to go too far down this road, but it's not just big breasts for me, too. It's nice breasts.
And yes-- Massive amount of self control.
(suddenly pictures every female shipmate I know sitting far across the room from me at a meet.)
And yeah, that's why Bingo's post hit me the way at did--on some level I know what he is talking about. It resonates.
[ 30. May 2014, 18:57: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
But, as Ingo says, it's not, and the battle ground is how we handle our natural urges of objectification, it's not eliminating them altogether. That is honestly impossible.
And this.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
I also don't want to have my son feeling guilt for simply being male, or for the natural results of his hormones (yes, he's freaking out too because he's suddenly started noticing boobs etc. on girls who are his friends). Really, I don't have a problem with that first instinctive male look. I DO have a problem with what the owner of those eyes chooses to do from then on, if it's not befitting a decent human being.
I was told a while ago that I have a terrific ass, by someone who was mildly intoxicated but who is also not, by any stretch of the imagination, intent on objectifying me. I found this information rather pleasant. Probably because I knew damn well that the speaker was never going to act on that observation in any way I didn't want, and because the speaker has always treated me like a real human being and not a chunk of meat.
Under those circs, feel free to have that first automatic appreciative look! But then let's get back to being rational, friendly adults.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I also don't want to have my son feeling guilt for simply being male, or for the natural results of his hormones (yes, he's freaking out too because he's suddenly started noticing boobs etc. on girls who are his friends). Really, I don't have a problem with that first instinctive male look. I DO have a problem with what the owner of those eyes chooses to do from then on, if it's not befitting a decent human being.
I was told a while ago that I have a terrific ass, by someone who was mildly intoxicated but who is also not, by any stretch of the imagination, intent on objectifying me. I found this information rather pleasant. Probably because I knew damn well that the speaker was never going to act on that observation in any way I didn't want, and because the speaker has always treated me like a real human being and not a chunk of meat.
Under those circs, feel free to have that first automatic appreciative look! But then let's get back to being rational, friendly adults.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Oh and GPR-- yes, the ass thing, too. Massive amounts of self control. Yes.
I guess the tipping point for me is two things. 1. The leering thing that LC talks about and 2. Even if none of my parts grabs your eye, I still expect to be treated like a human being. You do not have to fuck me, you do have to be civil. and since I am in fact not invisible, I am justified in being offended when I am treated like I am invisible.
I can speak to whether or not that impulse comes naturally for men, but IME most men seem to get this-- but the ones who have learned that "you only have to respect women for certain values of woman" can do a lot of damage. And (as I noted in y little backstory of misogynistic group experience) IME all it takes is one dildo with a mouth to loosen up compassion and instigate ugly talk against women who do not fall within "certain values."
Again, maybe that's the dude in me that was reacting, protectively, like those women were my sisters and I was their brother-- "Dudes, that's not how you talk about a woman!"
So, part of the work to get past objectification is to reinforce personification-- if that makes sense.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
So if I teach my niece that I think women have an obligation to dress relatively modestly most of the time in order to help Ingo and Kelly maintain custody of their eyes, are Shipmates going to have a problem with that?
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Can't speak for others, but I'd say IngoB and Kelly can suck it up and deal with others' immodest dress.
Edit: Summer seems to be coming early here in southern California, and immodest dress is everywhere, including on yours truly.
[ 30. May 2014, 19:34: Message edited by: RuthW ]
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
And that is just what I do.
I myself got chided by a female friend for wearing a basic sleeveless tee in 101 degree, because I didn't have the arms for it (according to her). Are you shitting me? I should have to swelter because you can't put your eyes somewhere more pleasant for you? Like my boobs, briefly?
[ 30. May 2014, 19:38: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
So if I teach my niece that I think women have an obligation to dress relatively modestly most of the time in order to help Ingo and Kelly maintain custody of their eyes, are Shipmates going to have a problem with that?
yes. Because Kelly and Ingo are responsible for their behavior. What you teach her is that sometimes, people are going to look. GOOD people will then wipe off the drool and say hello and have a conversation. shitheads will attempt to treat her like a giant set of walking tits. She is to treat those people with all the respect they deserve.
And I'm with Ruth. When it's hot and sunny out, I'm wearing the minimal to be legal. If men get to take their shirts off in the sun, I at least get to wear a halter top and short shorts. other people's temptations are no more my problem than my weaknesses should cause bakeries or bookstores to have to black out their store windows.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
What you teach her is that sometimes, people are going to look. GOOD people will then wipe off the drool and say hello and have a conversation. shitheads will attempt to treat her like a giant set of walking tits. She is to treat those people with all the respect they deserve.
And I'm with Ruth. When it's hot and sunny out, I'm wearing the minimal to be legal. If men get to take their shirts off in the sun, I at least get to wear a halter top and short shorts. other people's temptations are no more my problem than my weaknesses should cause bakeries or bookstores to have to black out their store windows.
Good analogy.
And I am ever the gentleman, ladies, for the record.
And as I hinted above, I have gotten more scrutiny from women and opinions about what I should or should not be wearing from women than I have ever gotten squirm-inducing leers from men, so most of y'all gentlemen are probably managing it just fine.
[ 30. May 2014, 19:46: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
I'd expect no less, my dear.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
There's some very sexy guys out there and it's my responsibility to keep my eyes where they belong rather than on their gorgeous bits. I'm an adult, i can handle it.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
I confessed I have a rack problem. I also have a bulge problem.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
God created sculpture just for us, Lamby.
(psst
Undeniably beautiful, but possibly NSFW, like some more cute links downthread
Sioni Sais
Helpful Hellhost)
[ 30. May 2014, 20:38: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
...Bingo, pray for my deliverance, right now.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
Shrug.
Appropriate to the occasion then?
Probably still a no.
Oh well.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Shrug.
Appropriate to the occasion then?
Hell of a lot more appropriate to say that "sweet thing X is in charge of me and Bingo's eyes."
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Also, I think the guy in the towel in your link is showing an admirable respect for academic tradition by donning a form of toga, and I applaud his choice of scholastic attire.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
Undeniably beautiful, but possibly NSFW, like some more cute links downthread
Sioni Sais
Helpful Hellhost)
whoops. didn't even occur to me, since it's statuary. "eek naked rocks!"
sorry 'bout that.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Not sure if I am ready to go too far down this road, but it's not just big breasts for me, too. It's nice breasts.
Well, seeing as you stuck your head above the parapets - err, me too. It doesn't lead me to doubt that men are where it's at for me, but nice breast are just - nice. One sort of can't help appreciating them. And yeah - it just happens automatically...
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
Anger, that's where a lot of it starts I think. Anger can come from frustration but also sadness. We need to be kinder to one another. "A soft word turns away wrath."
Posts: 3689 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Yep. Hurt people hurt people.
Anoesis-- you think it's just a mammal instict that can be sexual or can be just... mammalian, depending on the situation?
I mean, baby girls love boobs, too.
[ 30. May 2014, 23:17: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I mean, baby girls love boobs, too.
I could tell you any number of stories involving waitresses with low-cut tops and small children in high chairs thinking that the first course had just arrived...
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Preschool teacher. Hands down blouse. Constantly.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Ok, story time :
I was working in a toddler room, sand we had a small boy at nap-time who was-- resisting nap-time. i'll spare you my lecture on the battle ground that is nap-time. Anyway, I was helping this kid return to his cot. Each time he burst loose and ran around the room. After the fifth trip, as I laid him back on the cot, he kicked me in the boob. Hard.
I reared back, gasping and clutching my tit, as my co teacher flew over to assist. The little boy then began to get up again. I reached over to put him down again and he lunged forward...
I collapsed in a shuddering heap by the bed.
"Are you all right?" My co teacher asked. She thought I was hysterically crying.
I was hysterically laughing. So hard that I couldn't answer for a minute. I finally managed it--"He kissed it better!"
[ETA: and I am sure he was wondering what the hell we found so damn funny when here he was just trying to be a Nice Guy.]
[ 30. May 2014, 23:34: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
It just so happens that this week there was a repeat of the QI episode about eyes. Which talks about gaze detection. Apparently, men look at genital areas far more than women do whether they are conscious of this or not. The genital areas of women, the genital areas of other men, the genital areas of dogs, doesn't matter. Men's brains are programmed to check out the nether regions.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
That's astonishing. How do they say that functions?
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
( actually I have a guess) this goes back to when we walked on all fours and had more hair, and sexual characteristics were less obvious. You look for the genital region because that is what you sniff in greeting to establish the sex of the sniffee.
I've been hanging out a the zoo a lot lately.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
That's astonishing. How do they say that functions?
They didn't. Being a quiz-comedy, they frequently get away with not delving into the details. Besides, maybe nobody knows for sure WHY, it's just the results of the studies. Women look at faces, and men look at both faces and genitals.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
It just so happens that this week there was a repeat of the QI episode about eyes. Which talks about gaze detection. Apparently, men look at genital areas far more than women do whether they are conscious of this or not. The genital areas of women, the genital areas of other men, the genital areas of dogs, doesn't matter. Men's brains are programmed to check out the nether regions.
The problem with this kind of study is that it can't distinguish between behavior that differs between men and women because of the way we are socialized and innate differences in behavior. And it sometimes has trouble even identifying consistent differences in behavior between men and women. Differences that show up in one context will disappear in another.
Look for Delusions of Gender by Cordelia Fine. It is important reading.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
It just so happens that this week there was a repeat of the QI episode about eyes. Which talks about gaze detection. Apparently, men look at genital areas far more than women do whether they are conscious of this or not. The genital areas of women, the genital areas of other men, the genital areas of dogs, doesn't matter. Men's brains are programmed to check out the nether regions.
The problem with this kind of study is that it can't distinguish between behavior that differs between men and women because of the way we are socialized and innate differences in behavior. And it sometimes has trouble even identifying consistent differences in behavior between men and women. Differences that show up in one context will disappear in another.
Look for Delusions of Gender by Cordelia Fine. It is important reading.
Well yes, isn't that what I just said? It's a finding of fact, not an announcement of causation. Which is how real science works. Get proper data first.
And the RESULTS are not from a quiz comedy show. The REPORT is. If you knew anything about QI, you'd understand that there is actually a lot of research behind the comedy. The factual basis of what is said on the show is checked quite carefully. They are NOT doing the scientific research, they are using the real scientific research as the basis of a show full of surprising and interesting facts.
[ 31. May 2014, 01:00: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
I am pretty sure we had this discussion before, and the data offered then said that women will look at faces, then shoes. I'm assuming they collected this data by having some schlub sit and tick boxes as to the general angle of people's looks. My take on that was the ladies were demurely dropping their eyes so men would not catch them checking out their junk.
Either that or the researchers who looked at the schlubs' data muttered to themselves, "220 degrees?? 220 degrees ? What on earth could they be looking at at that ang-- naaah, gotta be shoes."
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
What? No. The technology for tracking eye movements has been around for years. Seen it on television a number of times. It's all headsets and cameras.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
They still might be presuming things about where the focus of a camera angle falls. I know what you are talking about (despite my silly image), but it is still only going to give a general range-- not pinpoint their exact focus.
[ 31. May 2014, 03:07: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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