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Source: (consider it) Thread: Hell: don't know why you girls aren't attracted to me...
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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You're probably right.

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

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The phrase that struck me (upthread)was 'girls abusing him.' Eh?
It is not abuse to refuse to have sex with you. It is not abuse to refuse to talk to you, especially if you are acting creepy. Women are in fact powerfully, powerfully socialized to do exactly those things.
If you insist that we do these things AND THEN COMPLAIN ABOUT IT, then the problem does not lie with us.
And, purely from the arithmetical perspective, if you want to have sex with women, shooting a number of them with a gun simply lowers your odds. Fewer to go around, you know.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768

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When I was teaching, I came across a document intended for teachers of autistic children. Ours were only primary age, but the document looked at pubertal children and adults as well. (It was for the adults I was reading it, as I had spotted some aspergic features which matched someone I was dealing with outside school.) With regard to pubertal boys, the document warned that some might form the idea that they should have sex, because that would be a literal interpretation of what they learned from education and other sources. They would pursue the aim, and, lacking a theory of mind, and the ability to read the reactions of women, could get things badly wrong. The idea was that teachers would work to prevent the boys forming these ideas, or know how to deal with them.

Some of the concepts expressed above seem to fit with this interpretation.

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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840

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quote:
Originally posted by ecumaniac:
Too bad he didn't just kill himself first.

I really really hope God has a pleasant room in His Mansion for suicides who think hard about killing other folk before themselves, but then decide against it.

I'll leave it to Him/Her to decide what to do with those who don't.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Horatio Harumph
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# 10855

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The #YesAllWomen hashtag on twitter has stemmed from this and Is definTely worth a read, especially if you don't believe in misogyny and rape culture, and violence against women being systemic in today's society.

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www.helenblogs.com
@helen_a13

Chocolate is proof that God wants us to be happy.

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Mere Nick
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# 11827

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quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
but how did he get into the mindset that virgin at 22 meant virgin forever? Which, incidentally, he's now guaranteed.

Not according to movies about prison.
Hardly relevant, since he's dead.
At least he saved the taxpayers some money.

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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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saysay

Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645

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quote:
Well now I will be a god compared to you. You will all be animals. You are animals and I will slaughter you like animals. And I will be a god. Exacting my retribution on all those who deserve it. You do deserve it. Just for the crime of living a better life than me. All you popular kids, you've never accepted me, and now you will all pay for it. And girls, all I ever wanted was to love you, and to be loved by you. I've wanted a girlfriend, I've wanted sex, I've wanted love, affection, adoration. You think I'm unworthy of it. That's a crime that can never be forgiven.
I've only read bits and pieces of his life story/manifesto, but this kid's problems started long before he hit puberty and started having a sex drive and wanting girls to like him. He was an American living in Hollywood. He thought the key to acceptance was buying the right stuff.

His whole entitled attitude applies to everything, not just women.

<shudder>

Maybe watching that video was a bad idea.

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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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This whole article is pertinent to this thread, the first part especially so.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Garasu
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# 17152

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Really?

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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.

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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
Really?

If one dopey blog ripping into another dopey blog can be called pertinent, then yes, it's pertinent.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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Cho also made a video which was shown on television. I wonder if some of the details of this guy's behavior were copied from Cho.

Moo

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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.

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saysay

Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645

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Really? I thought they refused to show that video to deprive him of the attention he so desperately wanted and to discourage copycats.

But I could just be remembering that wrong.

--------------------
"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Really? I thought they refused to show that video to deprive him of the attention he so desperately wanted and to discourage copycats.

But I could just be remembering that wrong.

That's what they SHOULD do with people like him. But shock and outrage sells.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Really? I thought they refused to show that video to deprive him of the attention he so desperately wanted and to discourage copycats.

But I could just be remembering that wrong.

They showed it, despite the fact that they were asked not to. I never saw it, and I don't intend to see this one either. However, I understand that both of them announce that what is about to happen is entirely the fault of the people who have persecuted these innocent men. [Ultra confused]

Moo

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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
This whole article is pertinent to this thread, the first part especially so.

Somebody else besides me read that? Cool.

First off, the author is the impressive David Wong. Just about everything he writes on Cracked is worth reading.

Second, I'm pretty sure the title was meant to be arresting-- to get people to read it. The tone of the article is actually very intelligent and reflective, if a bit pungent.

[ 26. May 2014, 00:47: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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comet

Snowball in Hell
# 10353

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yeah, but.... werewolves?!?

(another big Cracked fan)

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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions

"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin

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Beeswax Altar
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# 11644

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The list gets less believable as it goes on.

Guys do believe we deserve a beautiful woman as a reward for being a nice guy. Most of us grow out of it. I was a nerd in high school (way out of shape and horrible style). Still, I only wanted to date girls who were out of my league. Now, I'm a nice guy. Girls respected that and occasionally I was able to get a date with a girl who was out of my league. The dates were one off.

Eventually, I matured. Looking back at it, I made high school way more lonelier than it had to be. I'm remembering one girl in particular. She was funny, outgoing, relatively intelligent, and had a heart of gold. She also weighed around 250lbs (estimating). One day I thought I might be willing to settle and sort of hinted at asking her out. She expressed interest. I called her once. She wasn't at home. I talked myself out of calling her again and didn't talk much to her anymore.

I'm 37 now. The 23 year old me recognized that I made a mistake. She wasn't my dream girl. Guess what. I wasn't her dream guy either. We would have made a good couple. Several years later, I saw her at a Wal-Mart and told her I regretted not calling her again. She said, "Thank you." Probably thought it was kind of awkward. Oh well...it was just something I wanted her to know.

And it wasn't about sex. She was a fundamentalist. I was a fundamentalist. If all she wanted was to have sex, she could have done way better than me (which sort of comes with being female). Point is I passed up on dating several really awesome girls because I was obsessed with dating girls out of my league. What separated my teenage self from these crazy misogynists was that I didn't hate the girls who rejected me. I hated the jerks they dated.

Now, I'm happily married to Mrs. Mother Beeswax Altar and she is more than beautiful enough for me. [Big Grin]

That said.

How many women if given the choice would pick Mark Hamil over Harrison Ford?

Carrie Fisher wouldn't I tell you that.

[ 26. May 2014, 02:23: Message edited by: Beeswax Altar ]

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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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That's a great post, BA. Really spoke to me.

I genuinely believe most guys I know and who post here are encompassed in your "most guys." Wong, however, was probably aiming his essay at the kind of guys who haunt the comments section of Cracked, as well as the news items he mentioned, where various misogynistic dragons reared their ugly heads in politics. It was just the perfect time for him to write that article.

And I do think, as Marvin hints, that the article is a good primer for the general mindset that informed Eliot Roger.

(and for the record I have always, always had crushes on the weird looking sidekick guy in various films. I was really pissed at Wong for calling Steve Buscemi deformed. He's BEAUTIFUL!dammit!)

[ 26. May 2014, 02:31: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

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So did I. I do not believe anyone I was ever interested in in high school ever knew I was alive. However, I have confidence. Does anyone read Nero Wolfe novels? Nero Wolfe once said of Archie Goodwin (his assistant) that Archie's ego was such that any woman who rejected him would be instantly not worth pursuing. That's me. If you are not interested in me, you poor thing. It is sad for you.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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anoesis
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# 14189

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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
This whole article is pertinent to this thread, the first part especially so.

Somebody else besides me read that? Cool.

I read it just now, after seeing the link Marvin provided. I thought it was pretty well written, on the whole, and contained some very pertinent points. I was particularly impressed that the author (a man) had picked up on another man (George R R Martin's) writing, and pointed out that his idea of the female perspective was...umm... a bit off-beam. Women don't walk around thinking about their breasts and how they are moving inside their clothes...I was pretty tickled by that. They barely think about them at all, in my experience, unless they're trying to jog in the wrong bra...

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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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Or a potato chip falls down your blouse and positions itself above your nipple

(note to men-- that might sound sexy, but it is so the polar opposite of sexy when you own that nipple.)

[ 26. May 2014, 03:50: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
This whole article is pertinent to this thread, the first part especially so.

All that and women get to have more intense and multiple orgasms! oh how terrible it must be to be a man! [Roll Eyes]

As BA says - surely that was written about 16 year olds? Grown men have much better control over the trouser snake, do they not?

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574

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He does over state the case, I think. Of course as grown men we have more control though we still get the odd unexpected stiffy now and then, in which case it's "Think unsexy thoughts. Think unsexy thoughts".
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Gareth
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# 2494

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quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
So this kid was brought up in the make-believe world of Hollywood. He was born with a mental illness, something that would be challenging anywhere else.

Nobody is "born with a mental illness." Mental illnesses develop.

He was born with autism, which is a different developmental neurological state - some would call it a disability, others would accuse you of oppression and prejudice for calling it that.

As Fineline eloquently put it:
quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
No, autism isn't a mental illness. But it sometimes can co-occur with psychosis. Also when the social difficulties caused by autism are met by bullying/oppression/hatred/etc, an autistic person can (just as any victimised person can) develop mental health issues and anger issues. And it may be harder for an autistic person to process these experiences, without some kind of help, because difficulty processing feelings is one of the characteristics of autism.

Add to that an undeniable sense of personal entitlement, the belief that if anything wanted isn't immediately given then a great injustice has been done, and the resulting behaviour could easily be mistaken for common-or-garden sociopathy.

All the business with the PUA crap on the internet was merely a catalyst - not even a trigger.

quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
When I was teaching, I came across a document intended for teachers of autistic children. Ours were only primary age, but the document looked at pubertal children and adults as well. (It was for the adults I was reading it, as I had spotted some aspergic features which matched someone I was dealing with outside school.) With regard to pubertal boys, the document warned that some might form the idea that they should have sex, because that would be a literal interpretation of what they learned from education and other sources. They would pursue the aim, and, lacking a theory of mind, and the ability to read the reactions of women, could get things badly wrong. The idea was that teachers would work to prevent the boys forming these ideas, or know how to deal with them.

Some of the concepts expressed above seem to fit with this interpretation.

I taught kids with autism for ten years - never came across a document that fits this description, but did have professional training from experts in autism and sexuality - including one who dealt with sex criminals on the spectrum (sadly, there are a large enough number to support a correlation.)

It is common for people on the spectrum to develop unusual arousal triggers, and when you couple that with highly instrumental and often downright manipulative relationships with other people who are usually not supported, trained, or even warned of the potential consequences of failing to address nascent dysfunctional sexuality, the results can be catastrophic.

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"Making fun of born-again Christians is like hunting dairy cows with a high powered rifle and scope."
P. J. O'Rourke

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
'Move along, folks, nothing to see here. No cause for anger, more cause for sorrow, more sinned against than sinning etc etc.'

I disagree, my issue is that in the rush to demonise whoever the latest person who does such a thing, we generally try to talk as is if they are somehow inherently evil and always have been.

It is the things they have in common, that will best help us reduce the frequeny of this kind of crime. But that means acting on the near misses too.

A high percentage of people who are seriously violent will have been abused in someway (which includes severe and prolonged peer bullying). Dealing effectively with that, would also reduce the frequencies of these outcomes.

It may be that another hundred people in the same situation as this guy would just have killed themselves with a firearm - but actually, that is not OK either. Because it means your risk management and psychiatric care have failed, and resulted in a death.

I suppose what is bugging me, is people analysing what he said in the run up to his death as causal. Paranoid and hostile ideas will tend to be acute, when someone is acutely paranoid - they can be quite different to how that person thinks when their illness is appropriately treated. I knew someone who used to believe she had dead crystallised foetuses in her intestines when she was acutely depressed, this belief disappeared when she was not depressed.

(Reports suggested this guy had ASD & was mentally ill.)

[ 26. May 2014, 08:26: Message edited by: Doublethink ]

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Horatio Harumph:
The #YesAllWomen hashtag on twitter has stemmed from this and Is definTely worth a read, especially if you don't believe in misogyny and rape culture, and violence against women being systemic in today's society.

Give me the precis and save me the trauma.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
This whole article is pertinent to this thread, the first part especially so.

There's another Cracked article which also came to mind. About, among other things, how unrealistic it is to think a girl should fall into your lap because you're nice.

EDIT: Same author, in fact.

[ 26. May 2014, 09:29: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

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But I suspect that with guys like Rodger there is another layer beneath the 'entitled' stuff, where they hate their own sexuality, despise themselves utterly for having sexual and emotional needs, and hate the people who seem to arouse those needs.

For me, he is eaten up with psychotic envy, and envy always reveals an intense lack, or an emptiness. Yes, he could fill up the emptiness with grandiose visions of the perfect blonde girl, but he knows he will go back to his empty home, with only his mad fantasies for company.

I know when I work with people who hate so intensely, there is a point where I suggest the greatest hatred is for themselves. But this is an intolerable idea at first, and you have to wait to release it.

Ah well, hindsight is an exact science.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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quote:
Doublethink wrote:

I suppose what is bugging me, is people analysing what he said in the run up to his death as causal. Paranoid and hostile ideas will tend to be acute, when someone is acutely paranoid - they can be quite different to how that person thinks when their illness is appropriately treated. I knew someone who used to believe she had dead crystallised foetuses in her intestines when she was acutely depressed, this belief disappeared when she was not depressed.

Yes, it seems obvious in a way, that Rodger should have been sectioned and compulsorily medicated, to calm him down. Then you would review it, and see if he would respond to some kind of therapy.

But I think he was probably a very plausible seeming guy. The police called round, when he was releasing bizarre videos on Youtube, but they are hardly experts.

I suppose also there are plenty of crazy guys putting out crazy videos, and people become inured to it.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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My first thought is always for the parents of the perpetrator and this morning's news tells us that his mother had been trying to warn police for a week. I don't blame the police for not acting, but I do blame the laws that keep everyone's hand's tied when it's time for involuntary commitment.

Last Saturday morning my husband and I were bored to death and trying to find something to watch on TV. We ended up watching about 30 minutes of a movie starring Nicholas Cage called Drive Angry. In the time we watched, Cage, our alpha male hero had killed about twenty people in full blood splattering detail. In one gory scene he was interrupted while having sex with a beautiful woman he had just met and continued to have sex with her while shooting or stabbing about six people.

Now to me and my husband, who grew up watching John Wayne kill one or two bad guys per movie, where you hear the gun go off and someone falls down, (no blood)and at the end of the movie the beautiful woman allows John to kiss her -- well, we were appalled and changed the channel.

But what if we had grown up with thousands of these kind of movies? Watching this on Saturday morning when we were five or six years old and continuing to see nothing but this sort of thing all our lives? What if we were autistic or simply a little more impressionable or sensitive than average?

I don't think the sex and violence on TV and in films are the sole cause of this sort of thing. I don't think easy access to guns is the cause either or lack of good psychiatric care but they all work together and when it comes time to do something about it everyone just argues about it and nothing ever changes. The NRA is going to repeat its message that people with psychiatric problems shouldn't be able to buy guns, as if the gun dealer can look at his customer and make a diagnosis and movies won't change as long as the producers make money.

We're just going to have more and more of this sort of thing as we raise our children in this culture and no one really cares enough to demand gun laws that actually take guns out of circulation and censorship laws that actually keep some of the violence and sex off the screens. Because just saying we should have background checks on who we sell guns to and we should just turn off the TV, doesn't actually do a thing to effect what this young man watched as he grew up or to keep him from getting guns when he wanted them.

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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
There's another Cracked article which also came to mind. About, among other things, how unrealistic it is to think a girl should fall into your lap because you're nice.

EDIT: Same author, in fact.

That's closely related to the pathetic "If I love her enough she will love me back". Do any women do this or is it a male-only thing, and not a young male-only thing AFAICT.

(IMHO he's stating the obvious, if people would only think for a moment, so maybe he isn't stating the obvious after all. There are worse ways to make a living).

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
My first thought is always for the parents of the perpetrator and this morning's news tells us that his mother had been trying to warn police for a week.

[Votive]

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
There's another Cracked article which also came to mind. About, among other things, how unrealistic it is to think a girl should fall into your lap because you're nice.

EDIT: Same author, in fact.

That's closely related to the pathetic "If I love her enough she will love me back". Do any women do this or is it a male-only thing, and not a young male-only thing AFAICT.

(IMHO he's stating the obvious, if people would only think for a moment, so maybe he isn't stating the obvious after all. There are worse ways to make a living).

The trouble with all the analysis of entitlement, is that it ignores the fact, that for men like Rodger, this is fake. Beneath that, he feels an utter shit.

I know plenty of guys who felt entitled, and they went out and got a pretty girl-friend, got married, had a career, blah blah blah. They had a positive self-image, and acted on it.

Rodger can't do that, because he feels a total loser, but also feels intense rage and envy. Somebody has to pay for this.

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
"If I love her enough she will love me back". Do any women do this or is it a male-only thing, and not a young male-only thing AFAICT.

Yes of course. Victims of repeated domestic violence, for one.

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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
There's another Cracked article which also came to mind. About, among other things, how unrealistic it is to think a girl should fall into your lap because you're nice.

Thankyouthankyouthankyouthankyouthankyou! I'd been looking for this article since I first read this thread.

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
As BA says - surely that was written about 16 year olds? Grown men have much better control over the trouser snake, do they not?

No. You might as well try to control a Bandersnatch (no pun intended). Thankfully as I have aged and the testosterone levels have dropped, it has become less of a problem. TMI, I know. But no, one doesn't "control" one's erections, in my experience.

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
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My class of 1965 had 200 kids. About ten of them were paired off into couples who had been, "going steady," for years. I imagine they were probably having sex with each other. Then there were about ten amazingly self-confident kids who dated a wide and varied group of people. They may well have been having sex, too.

Then there were the remaining 180 kids, all of whom spent their high school years pining after either the one handsome football player or the head majorette There seemed to be nothing in between. Niceness didn't matter. If he was mean or she was conceited, it was just a case of shyness misunderstood or the want of a nice partner to change them. They weren't even the two best looking, as ageing soon revealed, they were just the two who had been designated, "most desirable," by the crowd. Sort of the way movie stars are determined.

So that means most of us were virgins because we were waiting for the fantasy one to notice us. Probably after we had saved their life.

We grew up though. We were given that time.

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Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
No. You might as well try to control a Bandersnatch (no pun intended). Thankfully as I have aged and the testosterone levels have dropped, it has become less of a problem. TMI, I know. But no, one doesn't "control" one's erections, in my experience.

Yes - I could have phrased that better. 'Surely grown men have control over their reactions to unwanted erections?' is what I should have said and, of course, the answer is obvious.

[ 26. May 2014, 14:22: Message edited by: Boogie ]

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
My class of 1965 had 200 kids. About ten of them were paired off into couples who had been, "going steady," for years. I imagine they were probably having sex with each other. Then there were about ten amazingly self-confident kids who dated a wide and varied group of people. They may well have been having sex, too.

Then there were the remaining 180 kids, all of whom spent their high school years pining after either the one handsome football player or the head majorette There seemed to be nothing in between. Niceness didn't matter. If he was mean or she was conceited, it was just a case of shyness misunderstood or the want of a nice partner to change them. They weren't even the two best looking, as ageing soon revealed, they were just the two who had been designated, "most desirable," by the crowd. Sort of the way movie stars are determined.

So that means most of us were virgins because we were waiting for the fantasy one to notice us. Probably after we had saved their life.

We grew up though. We were given that time.

Very nice post. Another aspect to this is safety. Desiring the unattainable - whether the singer in a boy-band, or the high-school dream-boat - keeps it all safe and contained, and kids need that, well, most of them. I remember, about the age of 15, when the girl next door asked me if I wanted to sleep with her - I was completely freaked out. Of course I didn't!

Then later, they can emerge from this chrysalis stage and begin to encounter real people.

But I don't think Rodger figures in this scenario, as he feels locked out. He hates and envies those who appear to be entitled, because he knows he is not at all. How he became so damaged - nobody knows I guess.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Yes - I could have phrased that better. 'Surely grown men have control over their reactions to unwanted erections?' is what I should have said and, of course, the answer is obvious.

In which case yes, the answer is obvious. Or should be. Men who don't have control over their reactions to erections have something else going on.

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
'Move along, folks, nothing to see here. No cause for anger, more cause for sorrow, more sinned against than sinning etc etc.'

I disagree, my issue is that in the rush to demonise whoever the latest person who does such a thing, we generally try to talk as is if they are somehow inherently evil and always have been.

It is the things they have in common, that will best help us reduce the frequeny of this kind of crime. But that means acting on the near misses too.

A high percentage of people who are seriously violent will have been abused in someway (which includes severe and prolonged peer bullying). Dealing effectively with that, would also reduce the frequencies of these outcomes.

It may be that another hundred people in the same situation as this guy would just have killed themselves with a firearm - but actually, that is not OK either. Because it means your risk management and psychiatric care have failed, and resulted in a death. )

quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
My first thought is always for the parents of the perpetrator and this morning's news tells us that his mother had been trying to warn police for a week. I don't blame the police for not acting, but I do blame the laws that keep everyone's hand's tied when it's time for involuntary commitment.
.

All this.

This episode has stirred so many emotions in me, and not just or primarily because it happened but a few miles north of where I live.

The perpetrator's words and actions so eerily mirror that of a student I had in my class a year ago that I had to keep double checking the name to make sure it was a different kid. My student didn't grow up in Hollywood, he didn't even grow up in US, but he did say almost word for word very very similar things. It was the only time in over 20 years of teaching that I was truly afraid-- not for myself but for my other students and for that particular student. The scenario that unfolded Friday night north of here was precisely the scenario that I envisioned in my worst nightmares almost every day of the semester. (He is no longer at our uni). And yes, he was severely abused as a child.

I used every resource available to me to try to intervene. We have an excellent mental health response team at our uni, I alerted them. They spent hours listening to my concerns and did everything they could to follow up-- or try to follow up. They-- and I-- constantly ran up against the same exact legal barriers that kept the parents of this perpetrator from getting the help we now know was so desperately needed.

Fortunately, my worst nightmares never happened for my student--- or at least not yet. That will be true for the majority who follow this profile. We don't seem to be very good at identifying the small minority who will cross the line to act out their violent fantasies. But whether my student or any other student will ultimately cross that line, we're not reaching people who are desperately, horribly in pain and lost in a tormented and dark universe. We can't seem to remove the barriers that keep them from getting help, and we can't seem to impose any barriers that prevent them from purchasing deadly weaponry.

Is this a uniquely American problem? I suspect so, and if so, is about the only thing that makes me want to forgo the incredible natural beauty of California to live somewhere-- anywhere-- else.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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We're not good at spotting people who might do something awful. One of my students went home and shot both his parents. Nobody had spotted anything.

But I think Rodger was telegraphing, and then he realized what he'd done, pulled down his videos, and sweet-talked the cops. Maybe an experienced mental health worker might have spotted something, maybe not.

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Curiosity killed ...

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# 11770

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No, I've worked with a few kids who have really worried me in the same way. One is now incarcerated at Her Majesty's pleasure after being found guilty of a fairly notorious murder.

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Gareth
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# 2494

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
We're not good at spotting people who might do something awful. One of my students went home and shot both his parents. Nobody had spotted anything.

But I think Rodger was telegraphing, and then he realized what he'd done, pulled down his videos, and sweet-talked the cops. Maybe an experienced mental health worker might have spotted something, maybe not.

Sorry, but I think this is a bit of an oversimpolification of the matter.

There are times when professionals are good at spotting it - but bad at doing anything about it; times when some professionals do spot it, but others prevent anything from being done about it; times when warnings are issued but those professionals are punished for doing so and then, when vindicated later, blamed for not having done enough.

I've issued warnings about high risk kids myself, and been punished because they embarrased a superior - who later erased my warnings from the records when they turned out to be accurate. Whistleblowers NEVER get thanked.

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P. J. O'Rourke

Posts: 345 | From: Chaos | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Josephine

Orthodox Belle
# 3899

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When Gabby Giffords was shot, it seemed pretty clear that the combination of inflammatory, violent speech ("if ballots don't work, we'll use bullets next time"), easy access to guns, and lack of access to treatment for mental illness created a "perfect storm" -- and nothing has changed since then. Inflammatory, violent speech is still tolerated, guns are readily available, and treatment for mental illness is still hard to get.

Different folks will want to emphasize one or the other of these factors, for various reasons.

I suspect that folks who don't want to restrict access to guns who are most focused on increasing treatment for mental illness. That's an important issue, and we need to provide better care for the mentally ill, but it's clearly not enough to prevent mass shootings. Rodgers had access to treatment. The shooter at the theater in Aurora, Colorado, had access to treatment. Others probably did as well.

The experience of Australia and other countries suggests that restricting access to guns could be enough. But I don't know how many more deaths it will take before that becomes possible in this country.

So, what would be both effective and possible? I'm thinking that maybe stamping out misogyny -- or at least fighting it tooth and nail every time it rears its ugly head -- might be effective, and it's something that we don't have to wait on Congress to do.

We can challenge hateful, violent, hyperbolic rhetoric when we hear it. We can challenge misogynistic attitudes every time we see them. If enough people do, it might just change the culture enough to reduce the number of mass shootings. Maybe.

I don't know that we have another choice.

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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Josephine

Yeah, but Rodger is using misogyny because he is a very damaged guy, and feels he is a total failure. Therefore, he rationalizes this by saying that women reject him, and it's their fault, and he will punish them.

But all of this is an inversion. The hatred of women masks another hatred - of himself.

How do you deal with that? I don't know.

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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I forgot a bit - how come there are so many damaged men around, who need this kind of revenge? I don't know really.

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Josephine

Orthodox Belle
# 3899

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I forgot a bit - how come there are so many damaged men around, who need this kind of revenge? I don't know really.

You read the Cracked articles linked earlier on this thread, didn't you?

The answer to your question is "misogyny and entitlement."

Misogyny: Men in our culture are trained to hate women.

Entitlement: And they are allowed to think that they deserve to have whatever they want, because.

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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!

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Gareth
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# 2494

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quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
So, what would be both effective and possible? I'm thinking that maybe stamping out misogyny -- or at least fighting it tooth and nail every time it rears its ugly head -- might be effective, and it's something that we don't have to wait on Congress to do.

Well, stamping out misogyny is a great ultimate goal - don't for a second think that I would stand in your way - but how about we start with a smaller problem and work up to that biggy?

How about we start by doing something about the English speaking world's nasty habit of overindulging its offspring?

Too many young people grow up in an environment where their every desire is granted by parents who seem to think that their role is first to give in to their children's every desire. Not to equip them with the skills, or work ethic, to make their own way in the world, but only to gratify them.

That alone creates objectionable, obnoxious, self-entitled, selfish individuals.

Yes, there is an element of selfishness to my opinion. After 25 years of hard work in a successful career, I still was unable to afford the type of car this 22-year-old child was given by his parents, in which he sat and bitched into a video about how unfair it was that no-one would fuck him.

Let's deal with the easy, obvious stuff first: if you spoil your kids, your kids will turn into spoiled brats.

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P. J. O'Rourke

Posts: 345 | From: Chaos | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
saysay

Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I forgot a bit - how come there are so many damaged men around, who need this kind of revenge? I don't know really.

Secular American culture is extremely toxic in its definition of both masculinity and femininity (and humanity). There are all kinds of attempts by all kinds of people to remedy this ( The Good Men Project is one that comes from a secular perspective and addresses masculinity).

But nothing seems to be working - or if it is, it's in baby steps.

Culture teaches people what it means to be human and live a human life.

Our culture - or at least the one you tend to absorb through the media and video games and the internet - sucks.

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I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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What the Fuck?! I've met many adults with airs of entitlement and how many of then have gone on a murder spree?

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Hallellou, hallellou

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