Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hell: don't know why you girls aren't attracted to me...
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Josephine: quote: Originally posted by Marvin the Martian: quote: Originally posted by orfeo: I dunno, but I'm not entirely buying this idea that men are struggling THIS much to find women, but women can find a man when they want one.
Not all men, obviously. But enough of us do to make it a known phenomenon.
You know, from time to time, my children used to tell me that they got in trouble in class more than any of the other children, or that they got made fun of by classmates, or any of a number of other unpleasant things happened to them more than they happened to anyone else they knew.
And sometimes there is someone who is a magnet for bad stuff.
But more often, as I told my children, it's a matter of awareness and attention. You are with yourself 100% of the time, so you are aware of the bad things that happen to you 100% of the time. If 10 bad things happen to you, if you are, say, rejected by someone you fancy 10 times, you are painfully aware of every single one of those times.
But it is impossible for you to be aware of every single rejection that someone else has faced. You do not know of the 10 or 20 or 50 rejections that a woman has faced.
So it seems obvious to you, and to the men that you compare notes with, that men struggle more than women to find a partner. But that's simply because you haven't yet figured out that other people have experiences that you know nothing about. And you haven't listened to the women who tell you that women also struggle to find partners, too, and that women also feel pain and rejection and frustration over their romantic struggles.
Actually, the cause of my angst wasn't comparing my experiences to women's. It was comparing it to other men's
-------------------- Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider: Actually, the cause of my angst wasn't comparing my experiences to women's. It was comparing it to other men's.
I would suggest that the same principle applies.
-------------------- I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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art dunce
Shipmate
# 9258
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Gwai: or good-looking but non-typical Janes who feel plain watching Firefly.
(crossposted with Gumby)
Interesting. I never considered plain being the opposite of good looking but the opposite of made up in a way that is generally considered "beautiful" or "hot". Must be a language nuance I was not aware if. They are lovely girls.
-------------------- Ego is not your amigo.
Posts: 1283 | From: in the studio | Registered: Apr 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Amen to that, too.
[crosspost] [ 29. May 2014, 16:05: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
-------------------- I cannot expect people to believe “ Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.” Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider: I'm not sure they're dramatically solvable. Might be as much as you can do to spot the signs.
[cartharsis]In adolescence, girls letting boys down a little more gently than strongly implying they'd rather stick their legs in a blender, or reacting with disbelief that for a second the boy in question could possibly think they'd ever dream of lowering themselves to going out with them would help in the making blokes feel less shit about themselves stakes, as well. Comments to friends along the lines of "can you believe it? He asked me out! As if! Eww!" tend to get back to the asker.[/catharsis]
OTOH, sometimes a woman tries politely to tell a man that she's not interested, and he refuses to believe her. I'm not talking about stalking--just repeated attempts to make her change her mind.
I once spent months trying to convince a man that it was a no-go, and he kept trying.
Moo
-------------------- Kerygmania host --------------------- See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider: [cartharsis]In adolescence, girls letting boys down a little more gently than strongly implying they'd rather stick their legs in a blender, or reacting with disbelief that for a second the boy in question could possibly think they'd ever dream of lowering themselves to going out with them would help in the making blokes feel less shit about themselves stakes, as well. Comments to friends along the lines of "can you believe it? He asked me out! As if! Eww!" tend to get back to the asker.[/catharsis]
Girls should be taught not say this sort of nasty thing about boys.
Likewise, boys should be taught not say similarly nasty things about girls.
But there is absolutely no reason to believe that adolescent boys are subjected to more of this kind of nastiness than adolescent girls are. Yes, it's painful to be subjected to it. (I certainly on the receiving end of my share of it.) But part of growing up, for the person who dishes this kind of garbage, is to learn that it makes them look ugly and not cool. And part of growing up, for the person who is subjected to this kind of garbage, is to realize that their nastiness says a great deal about them, and very little about you.
-------------------- I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Marvin the Martian: quote: Originally posted by orfeo: In other words, it cuts both ways. While men might be moping about despairing at how many women reject then, women are despairing at how hard it is to find a decent man.
Yes. And the way that looks from the male side of the equation is like there's one person starving to death while the other one is surrounded by food but complaining that it's not nice enough.
I'm sure it looks very different from the female side of the equation, and I'm certainly not saying the women are doing anything wrong. But we're talking about subjective perceptions here, not objective truths.
From what I can tell, the "male" view (oh pity us, don't we have it so rough, women might actually say no and hurt our widdle egos!) is that we're all starving, that there's no food, and if there was the jerks who got there first already ate it. How dare women complain that they have to settle for angel cake like us rather than black forest? They should be grateful to have food at all! Why, we'd kill for just a crust of bread!
To which the reply might be that it's not just that you dislike what's on offer, but you know a fair bit of it is poisoned, and if you get sick, you'll get blamed for even having a fork.
Look, I get that dating fucking sucks. I KNOW that it ends in rejection, depression, and absolute soul-rotting despair. There's a reason why I've basically given up on the whole thing—there's no way it's worth all this shit, and I still don't see a way to do this without running unacceptable (that is, any) risks of infringing on another person's right to live free from unwanted advances—as I'm pretty sure the whole entire Ship knows. I have my issues, I have my baggage, I've earned my scars from shit blowing up in my face.
And you know who I have to blame? Nobody but myself.
Sure, I'd like it if the system were tilted more in my favor. Wouldn't we all? I'd love it if I were tall, dark, and handsome, rather than looking like something that fell off the cathedral in the last earthquake. But I'm not. Even if everything was tilted in my favor, would it really matter, though? I still wouldn't have the right to infringe on another person's right to determine her own actions, and I'd still have to respect her desires, especially the one to have nothing to do with a strange man if she so wishes.
And so what? If the most I have to worry about is some nice, hard, soul-crushing and going without affection for years at a time, that's not that bad by comparison. It's not rape, it's not assault, it's not the ever-present reality of socially overlooked harassment, objectification, and othering that women deal with every day.
Nobody's ever called me a slut for rejecting them. Nobody's ever chased me for blocks asking me for my number. Nobody's ever stalked me, even after I tried to drop some not-so-subtle hints. I may not like the hand I've been dealt, but it's the fault of exactly zero women, individual or collective. The worst I've ever had to deal with are mixed signals, being strung along, and some rejections that really could have been a bit less harsh.
No, I take that back. If you're worried about someone not getting the hint, of going into stalker mode—which is a legitimate worry—I think you might want to throw off your socially conditioned "ladies, be nice to men, their egos can't take what you really think, let them down easy" bullshit and tell the truth. In all reality, I probably deserved more than what I've received, and I blush to think of what I've done, of the lines I've crossed, and what I should have been given.
I mean, I may be a gentleman—yes, I open doors for everyone because that's what my mother taught me, but, surprise surprise, I've never met a single woman who gave me so much as a dirty look for doing so (and I call more than a few radical feminists friends)—a nice little morsel of angel cake, but I recognize that I'm not without my own poison. I'm no rapist, nor would I ever assault someone, but I've crossed lines and ignored hints, some of which weren't subtle. Even nice guys aren't safe.
So, by comparison, a bit of nasty rejection, awful and soul-crushing as it is, might not be the Most Horrible Thing Ever.
-------------------- “Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
Posts: 6849 | From: The People's Republic of Balcones | Registered: Jan 2006
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Realizing some of my own damage in this issue-- as I have noted, at times in my life, I have been assimilated into groups of guys, and in two very formative such situations, those guys really supported each other in talking all kinds of truly awful shit about women. A lot of these guys I trusted reasonably one on one, but It was like they surrendered their will when they got in the group and the trash talk started. In each group, there was only one guy who had the stones to talk back, but I can imagine it must have been exhausting to shout all that crap down. I feel I have learned to trust certain individual men, but I think a good thing for my personal development would be to see a group of healthy, non-misogyny- infected guys interact with each other.
-------------------- I cannot expect people to believe “ Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.” Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
crosspost-- Ariston, tearing up.
-------------------- I cannot expect people to believe “ Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.” Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Ditto Hats off to you, Sir!
-------------------- "Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Ariston: quote: Originally posted by Marvin the Martian: quote: Originally posted by orfeo: In other words, it cuts both ways. While men might be moping about despairing at how many women reject then, women are despairing at how hard it is to find a decent man.
Yes. And the way that looks from the male side of the equation is like there's one person starving to death while the other one is surrounded by food but complaining that it's not nice enough.
I'm sure it looks very different from the female side of the equation, and I'm certainly not saying the women are doing anything wrong. But we're talking about subjective perceptions here, not objective truths.
From what I can tell, the "male" view (oh pity us, don't we have it so rough, women might actually say no and hurt our widdle egos!) is that we're all starving, that there's no food, and if there was the jerks who got there first already ate it. How dare women complain that they have to settle for angel cake like us rather than black forest? They should be grateful to have food at all! Why, we'd kill for just a crust of bread!
Honestly, no one's saying that at all, and that you think we/they are (and I don't care what version of junk you have in your pants) makes me a little bit angry.
I appreciate this isn't All Saints, but, you know...
-------------------- Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Thanks, Ariston.
Marvin (and any other guy who wants to know what it's like from women's side), get on Twitter and read the #YesAllWomen posts.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Doc Tor: quote: Originally posted by Ariston: quote: Originally posted by Marvin the Martian: quote: Originally posted by orfeo: In other words, it cuts both ways. While men might be moping about despairing at how many women reject then, women are despairing at how hard it is to find a decent man.
Yes. And the way that looks from the male side of the equation is like there's one person starving to death while the other one is surrounded by food but complaining that it's not nice enough.
I'm sure it looks very different from the female side of the equation, and I'm certainly not saying the women are doing anything wrong. But we're talking about subjective perceptions here, not objective truths.
From what I can tell, the "male" view (oh pity us, don't we have it so rough, women might actually say no and hurt our widdle egos!) is that we're all starving, that there's no food, and if there was the jerks who got there first already ate it. How dare women complain that they have to settle for angel cake like us rather than black forest? They should be grateful to have food at all! Why, we'd kill for just a crust of bread!
Honestly, no one's saying that at all, and that you think we/they are (and I don't care what version of junk you have in your pants) makes me a little bit angry.
I appreciate this isn't All Saints, but, you know...
if not exactly quoting, he is paraphrasing something that was said on the last page.so, be angry at whoever used that food analogy first.
-------------------- I cannot expect people to believe “ Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.” Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by RuthW: Marvin (and any other guy who wants to know what it's like from women's side), get on Twitter and read the #YesAllWomen posts.
I haven't read a single one yet that I didn't agree was talking about something that shouldn't happen.
But what's that supposed to mean, exactly? That my feelings don't matter or aren't important, as Ariston states? Because there's a strong vibe of "men's emotions are stupid and childish and shouldn't be taken seriously" going on here.
-------------------- Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Marvin the Martian: But what's that supposed to mean, exactly? That my feelings don't matter or aren't important, as Ariston states? Because there's a strong vibe of "men's emotions are stupid and childish and shouldn't be taken seriously" going on here.
It's not that men's emotions shouldn't be taken seriously -- women HAVE to take men's emotions seriously. We know that. And we take them very, very seriously, because we know that not taking them seriously can get us killed. Literally.
If that doesn't help you understand, then you might try googling the expression "But what about the men?" and reading a few of the links you find.
-------------------- I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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ecumaniac
Ship's whipping girl
# 376
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider: Male prostitutes servicing women do exist, do they not?
Not exactly.
Male prostitutes service men. The ones who are actually straight and doing "gay for pay" will see women as a sideline.
-------------------- it's a secret club for people with a knitting addiction, hiding under the cloak of BDSM - Catrine
Posts: 2901 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Jun 2001
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Moo: {tangent alert}
I think it's partly because I belong to an older generation, (I was born in 1934) but it amazes me that people get their ideas of what life should be like from movies, television, etc. rather than real life.
<snip>
What I wonder is, how many people get their expectations from the media, and how many from real life? The media present such a thin and pallid picture of things.
{/tangent alert}
Moo
It's not just because you're from an older generation. I wonder the same thing myself. I think it may be because I, like most of the people I know, had my mass media time and content restricted by my parents and other adults, but I've been surprised by how often I've felt the urge to remind people that this is life, not a movie.
quote: Originally posted by Josephine: I'm still puzzling over the idea that men are typically only willing to date women who are higher status and more desirable than they are, and, that being the case, we should feel sorry for them because of the pain they feel when their advances are rebuffed.
I learned something in my introduction to sociology course that had a profound effect on my life. Someone did a study (can't find it online) and determined that the person who was perceived to be the more powerful person (to have more social power) was responsible for initiating any kind of social relationship. And they also found that most people measured men's power in terms of wealth and official positions of authority, while they measured women's social power in terms of her appearance (attractiveness, adherence to arbitrary beauty standards).
IME, almost everyone wants to date someone who is equal or higher status to them. It's just that how we measure that status (achievement vs. looks) is different. And of course ignores that we probably should actually be focusing on whether or not the person is a decent human being who treats others the way they would like to be treated etc. Which is not necessarily the kind of information you find out in a bar or at a party.
-------------------- "It's been a long day without you, my friend I'll tell you all about it when I see you again" "'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Josephine, Kelly - while belittling someone for expressing their feelings is in no way comparable to raping someone because they won't put out, it's still a pretty shitty thing to do. That's all, and you're perfectly free to disagree.
-------------------- Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Josephine: quote: Originally posted by Marvin the Martian: But what's that supposed to mean, exactly? That my feelings don't matter or aren't important, as Ariston states? Because there's a strong vibe of "men's emotions are stupid and childish and shouldn't be taken seriously" going on here.
It's not that men's emotions shouldn't be taken seriously -- women HAVE to take men's emotions seriously. We know that. And we take them very, very seriously, because we know that not taking them seriously can get us killed. Literally.
I don't think stating and restating this is helpful. Frankly, doing anything can get you killed. the chances that the man you've rejected will rape or kill you are there - but they're relatively small. The chances that a women that a man has rejected will rape and kill him may be smaller, but they also still exist.
I don't fear that how I deal with a man will get me raped or killed. of course that chance is there, but so is the chance I'll go off the road in a snowstorm and die. it doesn't keep me from driving all winter. And most forays in the car are returned from safely.
If I need to reject a man I'll do so politely and gently. Not because I'm afraid he'll kill me but because I don't want to hurt him unnecessarily.
Generally, I really appreciate this whole conversation, while at times getting very frustrated because I want to somehow dive in and keep the walls from being built. I really like seeing the conversation happen. I think we all need to air grievances before we can really come to an understanding, but let's remember that each "side" has just as valid experiences as the other. Because I want to see this conversation continue. I'm learning a lot.
and of course it's all about me.
More seriously, I can't help wondering if there is a wider societal disconnect here, or a) Ship men are generally more enlightened/self-aware than average, or b) the men I've encountered are generally less enlightened/self-aware than average. I suspect it's A.
I can't help but attempt to address what some of the men here are saying, about women being choosy and men being set up for rejection. hear me out.
I'm perfectly willing to admit that I have been quick to judge. But that judgement is based on some pretty bitter experiences. Guys - you are not the only ones to suffer from rejection. (yes, I know you know that. hear me out) I find all of this talk of men being "willing" with far more women than vice-versa frustrating. I really don't think that's true. I'm beginning to suspect, though, that the selection of women in your hypothetical hook-up experiments are limited.
If the women in those experiments were all one or more of the following: large or obese, not-made-up, from minority groups, over 40, or with "strong" personalities, would you still say the men will be attracted to 50% of them? I doubt it. In my experience, men tend to not even notice these women, except as asexual friend potential. Ask any women - turn 35 or break 200 lbs or being over 6' tall or have a strong/aggressive personality or career field, and you disappear. poof. gone. My understanding is that it's the same for minorities, outside of being an "exotic" hook-up.
I'm not claiming that women are not choosy, because we sure as fuck are. but on those surface details - looks and race and age - I think we are more willing to sit and have the conversation and see if it's worth going further. I believe (very much generalizing, here) that we are seeking less surface-based attributes. Not that we can't be just as shallow, but we're shallow in other ways.
I am hesitant to say the following, because I have been snarled at pretty hard in the past for saying so, but here goes. I'm a good-looking woman. I'm no exotic Angelina Jolie, I think I fall more in the cute-redhead-and-freckles category. Merida in 25 years. Aside from the packaging, I have lots of other attributes that generally make me attractive to men.
Because of this, I've historically had no problem gaining a man's appreciation and attention. Then I turned 35 or so. suddenly, I'm not here any more. And the men who are interested in me are either 20 years old or 60. To the first category, I'm a "Graduate" style experience, to the second, I'm a younger woman.
my personality hasn't changed. my waistline changes fairly regularly, but the reality is that I've basically been shaped like this since my early 20s. I have no grey hair, and the wrinkles are minimal. But still - I've gone from conquest to buddy (or worse, mama) in what seems like an overnight change in the eyes of the men I've known.
It's been very enlightening.
So yes, women aged 15-35 have a lot of opportunity to reject a lot of men. When every man from puberty to retirement age is flinging themselves at you like bugs to a porchlight, you get to be choosy.
But I think you guys are setting yourselves up for rejection by narrowing your own criteria, while bemoaning that women are being too choosy.
Now, if we're going with our hypothetical experiment of people seeking each other out for 15 minutes of play, no strings, then yes, women will come out the winners, according to the male-driven criteria of physical sex. But according to other criteria, criteria that I suspect more women would follow, then the men win. An experiment like that is based almost solely on the physical packaging. basically, find a body you wouldn't mind taking home as a toy.
I've played that game. it's not much fun. it leaves you feeling embarrassed and empty and in need of a shower.
instead, change the criteria around where we're seeking to match compatible personalities. Imagine our same experiment, but everyone in the room has a blindfold on, and the goal is to, say, spend 7 days on a deserted tropical island with this person. I think it would level the playing field.
-------------------- Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by comet: quote: Originally posted by Josephine: quote: Originally posted by Marvin the Martian: But what's that supposed to mean, exactly? That my feelings don't matter or aren't important, as Ariston states? Because there's a strong vibe of "men's emotions are stupid and childish and shouldn't be taken seriously" going on here.
It's not that men's emotions shouldn't be taken seriously -- women HAVE to take men's emotions seriously. We know that. And we take them very, very seriously, because we know that not taking them seriously can get us killed. Literally.
I don't think stating and restating this is helpful.
You may be right. But at some point, "but the men get their feelings hurt!" starts to sound an awful lot like, "I'm sorry the kids died, but my second-amendment rights are more important."
That might not be fair. And it might not be helpful. But when a flaming misogynist has a plan -- not a fantasy, but a plan -- to kill every single woman in an entire sorority house, then to lure other women back to his apartment where he can torture and murder them, because some other women refused to put out for him, and when a bunch of other flaming misogynists go online (not here, but elsewhere) and say, "See what happens, girls? Maybe you'll be nicer next time," then maybe this isn't the thread for men to talk about how their feelings get hurt when women don't fancy them.
It's like the online groups for people with autism, and the threads that pop up after someone with autism gets murdered by their caregivers, and post after post after post is expressing sympathy and support for the caregivers. I understand, deeply and intimately, how hard it is for the caregivers. But there's a time and a place for caregivers to talk about how hard they have it, and what kind of support and help they need -- and that's not it.
Nor, it seems to me, is this thread the right place for men to talk about how hard they have it. They can if they want to, of course. But they might be better off starting a thread in All Saints. [ 29. May 2014, 20:57: Message edited by: Josephine ]
-------------------- I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by comet: Ask any women - turn 35 or break 200 lbs or being over 6' tall or have a strong/aggressive personality or career field, and you disappear. poof. gone.
If you're a man looking for something that might turn into wife-and-kids, women over 35 are no use to you. By the time you've got to know each other and are settled and stable, she'll be too old to have kids. Older men do also get progressively less fertile, but it's a much slower effect.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
I get what you're saying, Josephine, and I don't completely disagree.
But I feel the thread has moved on/diverged in a way that can be a helpful conversation.
The reality is, people like this murderer are rare. (and that god for that, or we'd all be dead) but this incident has opened up a wider conversation and opportunity for us all to have the conversation from the perspective of normal people who don't go on killing sprees. and I, for one, have learned a lot from the guys here. I only wish conversations like this one were happening throughout society so people like Elliot Roger could hear and get some perspective, or even so others could get an idea of what's going on and see the warning signs a little more starkly. because change can come from analyzing the extremes, but at some point we need to step back and discuss the norms.
-------------------- Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Leorning Cniht: quote: Originally posted by comet: Ask any women - turn 35 or break 200 lbs or being over 6' tall or have a strong/aggressive personality or career field, and you disappear. poof. gone.
If you're a man looking for something that might turn into wife-and-kids, women over 35 are no use to you. By the time you've got to know each other and are settled and stable, she'll be too old to have kids. Older men do also get progressively less fertile, but it's a much slower effect.
I don't know how long settling into a relationship takes you, but women are generally fertile for 10 or so years beyond 35. That would be moving really slow.
however, from the bitter "I'm only appreciated for my body" camp - what you appear to be seeking with this statement is an incubator. Can you see why some women might get awfully frustrated being seen as only the sum of their physical parts?
What if she's beautiful and perfectly fertile but a complete bitch? is the fertility part more important?
-------------------- Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
FUCK EDIT WINDOWS! can I be a host again, please? GRRR.
... and flood protection! GAH!
-------------------- Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
There's a TICTH thread for that comet, plus periodic whinges in The Styx.
-------------------- "He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Josephine: That might not be fair. And it might not be helpful. But when a flaming misogynist has a plan -- not a fantasy, but a plan -- to kill every single woman in an entire sorority house, then to lure other women back to his apartment where he can torture and murder them, because some other women refused to put out for him, and when a bunch of other flaming misogynists go online (not here, but elsewhere) and say, "See what happens, girls? Maybe you'll be nicer next time," then maybe this isn't the thread for men to talk about how their feelings get hurt when women don't fancy them.
I guess it depends on if you're interested in why they became flaming misogynists or not.
-------------------- Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Sioni Sais: There's a TICTH thread for that comet, plus periodic whinges in The Styx.
yeah yeah yeah. guess which finger I'm holding up right now, Sioni?
(I know, I know. get the fuck over it. once I've dried my tears and calmed my heart breaking sobs, I'll move on. Tomorrow is another day, Scarlett.)
-------------------- Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Two of the norms are men telling other men to "man up" (see Ariston's post), and women slut-shaming other women for being too forward (see my exchange with ecumaniac, or the Prom dress thread). Both feed into the same idea that men's feelings are dangerous and shouldn't be awakened.
-------------------- Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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art dunce
Shipmate
# 9258
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Posted
In the world, "Women aged 15-44 are more at risk from rape and domestic violence than from cancer, car accidents, war and malaria, according to World Bank data."
"Several global surveys suggest that half of all women who die from homicide are killed by their current or former husbands or partners. In Australia, Canada, Israel, South Africa and the United States, 40 to 70 per cent of female murder victims were killed by their partners, according to the World Health Organization."
UN.
-------------------- Ego is not your amigo.
Posts: 1283 | From: in the studio | Registered: Apr 2005
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Doc Tor: Two of the norms are men telling other men to "man up" (see Ariston's post), and women slut-shaming other women for being too forward (see my exchange with ecumaniac, or the Prom dress thread). Both feed into the same idea that men's feelings are dangerous and shouldn't be awakened.
absolutely. Ariston's post made me want to cry and the whole prom thread had me shrieking to the empty room.
And in all honesty, this is how I was raised. It's only really started chafing in recent years. We are taught (we=girls) that if you flirt too hard or dress a certain way then you are in danger. and I, at least, was taught that it is not my fault, but that's just how it is. And is that wrong? Not necessarily. Even if your chances of being attacked are super slim, you still don't want to increase it any.
But it goes beyond that, too. you dress conservatively (for instance) for your safety, but then if you don't, it means you are welcoming that danger, right? And even now, where I'm actually pretty damn good at defending myself should the need arise, and nobody who knows me really feeling otherwise, I get little lectures for having cleavage showing or even (for gawd's sake!) wearing my hair down and long, because "you're sending the wrong message". And not just from women - actually the worst experience I had in that "slut shaming" category came from a man who was neither husband nor father.
But how to we fix this? because us parents really do need to have the conversation with our daughters about not setting yourself up for danger, and we can't control how everyone else raises their sons. But we can stop the morality judgements for how a woman behaves or dresses, and trust that her mother and father did have that conversation with her and she gets to make her own choices, and cleavage and short-shorts are not a sign of low morals. [ 29. May 2014, 21:40: Message edited by: comet ]
-------------------- Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by comet: I don't think stating and restating this is helpful. Frankly, doing anything can get you killed. the chances that the man you've rejected will rape or kill you are there - but they're relatively small. The chances that a women that a man has rejected will rape and kill him may be smaller, but they also still exist.
I don't fear that how I deal with a man will get me raped or killed. of course that chance is there, but so is the chance I'll go off the road in a snowstorm and die. it doesn't keep me from driving all winter. And most forays in the car are returned from safely.
If I need to reject a man I'll do so politely and gently. Not because I'm afraid he'll kill me but because I don't want to hurt him unnecessarily.
Generally, I really appreciate this whole conversation, while at times getting very frustrated because I want to somehow dive in and keep the walls from being built. I really like seeing the conversation happen. I think we all need to air grievances before we can really come to an understanding, but let's remember that each "side" has just as valid experiences as the other. Because I want to see this conversation continue. I'm learning a lot.
Exactly. Me too. This
I have the feeling there's a certain amount of entrenchment starting to happen, and I hate to see that, as most of the views expressed on the thread (about misogyny, anyway, were not miles apart to begin with).
-------------------- The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by comet: I don't know how long settling into a relationship takes you, but women are generally fertile for 10 or so years beyond 35. That would be moving really slow.
Biological reductionism only ever produces half-truths when applied to humans. But as far as the relevant half-truth here goes: the underlying biological calculus would not be whether the woman can still conceive a child, but rather how much offspring she is likely to produce over the entire course of the relationship. At around 20, you would be looking at about 7 children on average. At >35, perhaps at 3. And then you need to take into account that there is a higher likelihood for the child having medical issues if born to an aged mother, as well as an increased likelihood of the mother dying before the child is raised (think pre-modern life expectancy). That's a considerable reduction in "expected procreation success".
quote: Originally posted by comet: however, from the bitter "I'm only appreciated for my body" camp - what you appear to be seeking with this statement is an incubator. Can you see why some women might get awfully frustrated being seen as only the sum of their physical parts?
Sure. But our sexual drives and desires are at least as much biologically determined as they are culturally shaped. That it is reasonable to be attracted to someone, or indeed culturally favoured, does not make you attracted to them. There is a certain autonomy to our sexual impulses, they are not under our comprehensive control. Youth just is sexually attractive, on average, and more so in women.
quote: Originally posted by comet: What if she's beautiful and perfectly fertile but a complete bitch? is the fertility part more important?
Experience suggests that men will grit their teeth and bonk the beauty... [ 29. May 2014, 21:53: Message edited by: IngoB ]
-------------------- They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Josephine: But when a flaming misogynist has a plan -- not a fantasy, but a plan -- to kill every single woman in an entire sorority house, then to lure other women back to his apartment where he can torture and murder them, because some other women refused to put out for him, and when a bunch of other flaming misogynists go online (not here, but elsewhere) and say, "See what happens, girls? Maybe you'll be nicer next time," then maybe this isn't the thread for men to talk about how their feelings get hurt when women don't fancy them.
But none of those flaming misogynists are going to come onto ship of fools and spout their shit. Because if they did they'd be shot down by every single poster here. So at some point this thread is going to develop beyond "misogyny is bad, isn't it?"..."yes it is", and try to understand why these things happen and how someone can end up like that.
quote: Originally posted by Josephine: Nor, it seems to me, is this thread the right place for men to talk about how hard they have it. They can if they want to, of course. But they might be better off starting a thread in All Saints.
I've allowed myself one small section of one post to talk about how hard I have it, and that was just to give context. I initially thought about posting some of the stuff I did in the 'rape culture' thread, but in terms of where the conversation was going, it fitted here. Otherwise the rest of what I have posted is solely for the benefit of mutual understanding. I can only post from the point of view of being a man, because that is what I am. I'm not looking for sympathy, I'm trying to explain (from my point of view) some of the dynamics of how men end up like Elliot, but also how a lot of men don't, despite having gone through similar experiences.
I don't need to post in All Saints. I'm not looking for support (though I appreciated Boogie's and SCK's sentiments). I have support from RL friends. I'm aware I'm posting in Hell, and the discussion we've been having can, in a way, only happen in Hell - it wouldn't be the same in Purgatory. If Ariston or whoever tells me to pull my big girl panties up I can deal with that.
I've said it enough times, Josephine. You are one of the wisest people on the ship. I still remember things that you have posted years ago. You are awesome. On this thread though, it seems like you're so keen on telling that you're not willing to listen or understand. By my nature, I just don't understand women. I need women like you and other similarly awesome shipmates to tell me as it is, and I appreciate that so much. But we're talking on this thread about a man, and how he turned into a monster. None of us want what he became and did to happen to anyone else. On this thread you have a bunch of men trying to understand and explain a tiny sliver of what might have been going through his head, because as men they have had some vaguely similar experiences. To understand, and to look for ways to change things so this kind of thing happens less often.
Honestly, that caricature you made in reply to my earlier post was so crazy far off the mark of how I (and, I believe, most men) feel. But that's fine. You're a woman, and I don't expect you to get what it's like to be a man (and by a man, I mean the vast majority of normal, non-misogynistic men that abound, not the hate-filled weirdos you're encountering elsewhere).
So, if you think my motive for posting here is for sympathy or support, you are dead wrong. I am only trying to learn, and share the little understanding and insight that I do have.
Oh, and Comet, you win the prize for being fully awesome yet again.
-------------------- "Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by comet: But how to we fix this? because us parents really do need to have the conversation with our daughters about not setting yourself up for danger, and we can't control how everyone else raises their sons.
We need to have 'the conversations' with our sons, as well, for a start. And no, I don't know quite how you would approach it, exactly, and yes, I'm sure it would be one of the most uncomfortable conversations it's possible to have.
But then, how's this for a fucked-up exchange? One of my colleagues, who had her first baby, three weeks before I had my first (a girl), said to me (without any trace of irony or anything), 'Oh, I'm so glad I had a son! If you have daughters it seems to me you never stop worrying about them!' 'What on earth do you mean?', say I. 'Well, you know, when they're teenagers,' she says, 'Girls! They can get pregnant! They might get raped!'. I raised my eyebrows and said 'You know, if I had to choose between being the parent of a rape victim and the parent of a rapist...'
This is the thing - people can see the danger of someone dear to them falling victim to being assaulted, but they close their minds to the possibility that someone dear to them might become an assaulter. Even when, as I have unfortunately seen, there is documentary evidence right in front of their eyes and everyone else believes it.
-------------------- The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by comet: Even if your chances of being attacked are super slim, you still don't want to increase it any.
I suppose it depends on how you're defining an attack. If you're talking about an altercation that results in a black eye, broken bones, and the like, your chances of being attacked probably are super-slim.
But if your definition of an attack includes being grabbed by a man and kissed or groped against your will, your chance of being attacked are not slim at all. In fact, I suspect that most women have been attacked in this way. The first time it happened to me, I was not at a bar, or a nightclub, or on a date. I had not been drinking. I was not provocatively dressed. I was a 14-year-old tourist out seeing the sights in a crowded public area in broad daylight.
I don't think my experience was unique. I don't even think it was particularly unusual.
-------------------- I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by comet: women are generally fertile for 10 or so years beyond 35.
In the sense of "still ovulating", sure, but female fertility starts to drop pretty quickly at age 35.
quote:
however, from the bitter "I'm only appreciated for my body" camp - what you appear to be seeking with this statement is an incubator.
No, I don't think that's right. A lot of people - perhaps most people - want children. This doesn't mean they are seeking a brood mother or sperm donor - but that they see marriage, kids and the white picket fence as part of their ideal future.
Unless you believe all the "one true soulmate" business, each person has many potential partners that would make a good match. The purpose of dating is to determine whether you have found one of them, and, mutatis mutandis, whether you are a good match in return.
Given that, a rational person whi wants children is going to concentrate his or her efforts in the direction of those who are more likely to be fertile.
This doesn't, of course, preclude meeting and falling in love with someone who turns out to be infertile, but those who want children won't be deliberately seeking out the infertile or less fertile.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Josephine: For those of you who empathize with how frustrated poor nerdy guys who don't get the girl must feel, please read this.
And then read this.
Thanks for sharing these, Josephine - the first one, in particular, just goes to show how pernicious is the idea that women like being pursued, even when they have indicated that they don't, that they want to have their wishes overridden, because they are looking for evidence of grand passion, or something.
And because my mind was attuned to it, I found another example - this execrable song, which was playing at the gym this morning. As it's by a New Zealand artist, it probably won't have been inflicted on the rest of the world, except maybe Australia - but honestly, take a look at the lyrics here ; - pretty much a textbook example of what has been talked about in stalking/objectification terms, presented, if you watch the video, as all sort of cute and sweet and wholesome and summer-fun. Thanks, Sony Music. Epic. Well done. Thanks NZ On Air for helping fund that - what the fuck were you thinking? Oh wait, you weren't. This stuff is ingrained. It doesn't get noticed until someone points it out.
Thanks (non-sarcastic thanks) to the people who have and are pointing it out.
-------------------- The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by goperryrevs: I'm trying to explain (from my point of view) some of the dynamics of how men end up like Elliot, but also how a lot of men don't, despite having gone through similar experiences.
Yes, all men -- probably 100% of men -- get rejected by some women some of the time, and I am as certain as I can be that all of those men feel pain from that rejection. And I am sorry for that. I don't like it when other people feel pain.
But I don't think that has anything to do with whether or not they turn into Elliott Rodgers. I honestly don't.
Men turn into Elliott Rodgers, not because they are rejected, but because they think that women don't have the right to reject them. When they are rejected, they think they've been cheated out of something that is theirs by right.
And so the pain that normal, healthy, ordinary men like you feel when you've been rejected doesn't seem to me to have anything at all to do with Elliott Rodgers.
I understand that it hurts to be rejected. I've been rejected. It hurts.
But bringing it up the pain that men feel when they're rejected in a discussion of a man who tried to kill women because he was rejected makes it sound like you're trying to justify what he did. Yeah, it was evil and misogynistic. But, look, he was rejected, and that hurt, and ...
And what?
The implication seems to be that women, by rejecting men, are responsible for the violence that gets directed against them by those men. The implication seems to be that, if women would just be nice to every man that fancies them, all this could be prevented.
And I know you don't mean to be saying that. But that's how it sounds.
(And thank you for your kind words. I do appreciate them, whether or not I deserve them.)
-------------------- I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by anoesis: We need to have 'the conversations' with our sons, as well, for a start. And no, I don't know quite how you would approach it, exactly, and yes, I'm sure it would be one of the most uncomfortable conversations it's possible to have.
Coming out of the blue, yes, I imagine it'd be excruciating. But as part of an ongoing conversation on how the world sort-of works, what's expected of adults and how far short we can all fall from those expectations, it's not going to be any more difficult than some of the other conversations I've had already.
As a result of the Rodgers shooting, I've already had part of the conversation with my daughter, where I've told her that some men will want to hurt her even if all she's done is ignore them. Even if all they think she's done is ignore them. That was fun.
-------------------- Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote: Josephine wrote:
But when a flaming misogynist has a plan -- not a fantasy, but a plan -- to kill every single woman in an entire sorority house, then to lure other women back to his apartment where he can torture and murder them, because some other women refused to put out for him, and when a bunch of other flaming misogynists go online (not here, but elsewhere) and say, "See what happens, girls? Maybe you'll be nicer next time," then maybe this isn't the thread for men to talk about how their feelings get hurt when women don't fancy them.
I'm sorry, I find this completely incredible. You are really saying that men cannot start to talk about their feelings then. How the hell else are we ever going to understand male psychology, including misogyny?
Words fail me really. I feel like wearing one of those gags.
-------------------- I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Leorning Cniht: quote: Originally posted by comet: women are generally fertile for 10 or so years beyond 35.
In the sense of "still ovulating", sure, but female fertility starts to drop pretty quickly at age 35.
quote:
however, from the bitter "I'm only appreciated for my body" camp - what you appear to be seeking with this statement is an incubator.
No, I don't think that's right. A lot of people - perhaps most people - want children. This doesn't mean they are seeking a brood mother or sperm donor - but that they see marriage, kids and the white picket fence as part of their ideal future.
Unless you believe all the "one true soulmate" business, each person has many potential partners that would make a good match. The purpose of dating is to determine whether you have found one of them, and, mutatis mutandis, whether you are a good match in return.
Given that, a rational person whi wants children is going to concentrate his or her efforts in the direction of those who are more likely to be fertile.
This doesn't, of course, preclude meeting and falling in love with someone who turns out to be infertile, but those who want children won't be deliberately seeking out the infertile or less fertile.
Boy, oh boy. You think she might have meant "usefulness outside of dating", maybe?
Here Kelly makes a gratitude list.: I am so glad I am friends with Ariston. He doesn't give a shit whether I am fertile or not. i am so glad I am friends with Marv. Differences in rhetoric aside, he treats mr like a sister. I am so glad I sm friends with Mousethief. He will be angry at me for weeks, but always wind up being my friend. He doesn't give a shit whether ir not I am fertile. I am so glad I am friends with/ possibly flourting eith E. He likes me for my creative energy, and doesn't seem to give a shit whether I am fertile. All I have to be is me.
I am thankful that most of the young virile men I meet are up for a friendly chat,. How they make up fir the occasionsl young dildo that treats you like you insulted their vision by appearing before them with imfertile characteristics. I was shiiting around about peopke sucking in general--i ahd just gotten off the freeway-- but the truth of the matter is that humans are social, and most people treat each other like people, and figure out the dateability index later.
God-- yeah, I'm invoking God-- did not just create us to breed, he created us to feed each other's souls. People who leave infertile old crones out of that eqation do so at their peril.
-------------------- I cannot expect people to believe “ Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.” Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Fucking iPad.
-------------------- I cannot expect people to believe “ Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.” Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
Comet Posted:
quote: But how to we fix this? because us parents really do need to have the conversation with our daughters about not setting yourself up for danger, and we can't control how everyone else raises their sons.
Lord help me for sticking my toe in this mess but hey here goes...............
When are the Mums going to talk to the sons? Raise the sons? Teach the sons? When are the women going to take responsibility for their parenting of abusive men?
I know many, many women are hurt by men. Many of them will go on to have sons. Many mothers, sisters, daughters and friends know of women who they love who are hurt by men. Where is the decision to say it stops with my sons? In all this stuff about the Elliot Roger I did not read anything about his mother.
I an NOT pointing fingers or blaming. I am just asking a question. Who has the biggest potential influence on the monsters?*
Pyx_e
* this is a rhetorical question we ALL know the answer.
-------------------- It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Would you be shocked if I said I know what you mean?
I have to get to a proper keyboard for this, but I just got back into regular early childhood work, I keep thinking about this thread, and I am pissed. Hold that thought.
-------------------- I cannot expect people to believe “ Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.” Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Pyx_e: Comet Posted:
quote: But how to we fix this? because us parents really do need to have the conversation with our daughters about not setting yourself up for danger, and we can't control how everyone else raises their sons.
Lord help me for sticking my toe in this mess but hey here goes...............
When are the Mums going to talk to the sons? Raise the sons? Teach the sons? When are the women going to take responsibility for their parenting of abusive men?
See my post, above. My son is only two, so it's early days, but I certainly intend to talk with him about it.
However, I think you are laying it on a bit thick saying 'when are women going to take responsibility for their parenting of abusive men?' As a mum, you can already get blamed for loving your son too much and therefore making him all sort of dependent and 'unmanly', as well as blamed for being too cold and creating a man who is emotionally constipated. And that's before we even get to the crap about making them gay with your parenting style... A better way to put it might be 'When are women going to wake up to the possibility that they could be the parent of a potential abuser?'
-------------------- The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
When one of my sons was in third grade, his teacher was a man.
One day, the teacher overheard a couple of boys in the class talking about a classmate's boobies. The teacher grabbed them by the scruff of the neck, took them out into the hall, and read them the riot act. He told them that they did not have the right to talk about other people's bodies that way. Her body was not there for them to mock or judge. They owed it to her, and to themselves, to treat her, and her body, with respect. (And he didn't close the door, so every child in the classroom heard the lecture.)
My son told me about it when he got home from school that day. It made quite an impression on him. And I think it's possible that, if other adults (not just moms, but dads, uncles, teachers, neighbors, coaches) all responded the same way, it would begin to make a difference.
And I think it's especially important for boys to hear that kind of message from men.
-------------------- I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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ecumaniac
Ship's whipping girl
# 376
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by comet: But it goes beyond that, too. you dress conservatively (for instance) for your safety, but then if you don't, it means you are welcoming that danger, right?
"But if you don't show a bit of leg/boobs and do your hair and makeup, then how do you expect to attract a man? You'll be alone for the rest of your life." - my parents
-------------------- it's a secret club for people with a knitting addiction, hiding under the cloak of BDSM - Catrine
Posts: 2901 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Jun 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
"Of course people in general are going to dismiss you if you don't appear to be making an effort." ( and that means boobs and makeup.)
-------------------- I cannot expect people to believe “ Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.” Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Boy, oh boy. You think she might have meant "usefulness outside of dating", maybe?
The context was exactly dating. Comet was talking about how women of 35-40 or so find that all the similar-aged men have vanished - they get dating interest from kids looking for Mrs. Robinson and from older men.
My contention is that this is because men of that age are, on average, looking for a wife and kids, and that if you are a man looking for children, a woman in her 40s is a bad bet.
quote:
most people treat each other like people, and figure out the dateability index later.
Umm, yes? I think I'm missing the point here. Nobody is talking about not treating people like people. I am saying that if a single man in his 40s who wants a family is looking to meet new women, with a view to dating someone, the women he seeks out are going to tend to be closer to 30 than 40.
If we're talking about feeling attracted towards people you already know, that's a different dynamic.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Josephine: But bringing it up the pain that men feel when they're rejected in a discussion of a man who tried to kill women because he was rejected makes it sound like you're trying to justify what he did. Yeah, it was evil and misogynistic. But, look, he was rejected, and that hurt, and ...
And what?
What I actually originally brought up when I started posting on this thread was the idea that Elliot Roger felt powerless:
quote: Originally posted by goperryrevs: For me, as a result of a huge bunch of factors, encompassing all those that have been talked about on this thread, Elliot Roger felt totally powerless. Powerless over his disability, powerless over his mental health problems, powerless over women, powerless over 'strong' men.
The reason that he did what he did was not because some girl(s) that rejected him. There is no one reason he did what he did. I do think it was one of the many factors that led to him feeling generally powerless. By the sounds of it, his online interactions fed into that worldview and led him, tragically, towards what he did.
The thing is, no-one questioned my saying that he felt powerless over his disability or mental health. But the idea that he might (shock!) feel powerless when it came to women was challenged, which is why I've tried to explain why men might feel like that.
And besides, it's about something bigger than being sad because you're rejected. So, while it's nice that you understand it hurts to be rejected, it's not just about that. It's about things that you can't understand because you're not a man. You don't have to navigate having a male libido. You don't have the conflicting societal expectations around being a gentleman (did anyone else notice that Elliot described himself as "the supreme gentleman"?), the pressure of feeling that you have responsibility but no power, the pressure to restrict and inhibit your emotions because to be honest about them is not seen as 'manly'.
The remnants of a patriarchal society and male privilege mean that women experience barriers and struggles that men just don't. And they're probably harder than the things we have to deal with, so kudos to all you women for getting through regardless.
But that doesn't mean that men are just women, only minus those barriers. Men have barriers and difficulties of their own that are unique to men. You don't experience them. You don't struggle with them. You don't understand them. So when you say you understand, you're proving that you don't, because you can't. I don't understand what it like to walk down the street fearing that someone will rape me. You can't understand the male experience either, but I'm doing my best to give you a clue.
-------------------- "Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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