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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Atheism on Purpose
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Coming late to the discussion but the above statement seems to imply atheism is more demonstrably true (via science) than faith?
Yorick did backpedal on that one, if you care to read the thread.
To you. Not to Adeodatus. He said it again.
If you care to read the thread.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
Of course it's anthropocentric; that's the whole idea....
Well, quite. And when you add a god who has apparently made humans in his own image, you've ended up with a situation where humans have made themselves the centre of the universe by proxy.
This doesn't necessarily follow; earthly religions tell the story of earth, not of any other possible world.
In other words, and as the saying goes: we know God is interested in earthlings - but we don't know who else God may be interested in.
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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kankucho
Shipmate
# 14318
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
...many people of faith experience God.
Have people of faith managed to pin down a definition of God yet which makes that statement in any way cognitively meaningful?
When an atheist feels a sense of awe and inner well-being, s/he thinks, 'I'm feeling a sense of awe and inner well-being'. When a person of Christian faith feels the same, s/he thinks, 'This is God (of the Bible) revealing himself to me'. A Hindu is experiencing Krishna, a Buddhist is experiencing Buddha nature. The locus of experience is merely shifted to accord with the anticipated religious context.
quote:
Why is there something instead of nothing?
That's a very pretty question - but, again, one that is not cognitively meaningful. Nothingness is not an option for anyone who has the substantiality to ask the question.
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"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself" – Dr. Carl Sagan
Kankucho Bird Blues
Posts: 1262 | From: Kuon-ganjo, E17 | Registered: Nov 2008
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
To you. Not to Adeodatus. He said it again.
If you care to read the thread.
And here I thought that he would be perfectly consistent.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
I do wonder, though, about Yorick's main point - and I see he didn't answer the question about "being the center of the universe."
To me, one of the best features about religion is that it posits a Greater Power. In A.A., this idea gets used in the service of killing "self-will run riot" - a central problem for addicts. But there is more to it than that, I think, and Christianity does speak to the fact that people generally can't fix themselves - that they need help from outside themselves. (I'm sure other religions speak to this idea, too, although I don't know this firsthand.)
Now, people can get some fixing through psychotherapy - but of course, that's expensive (and you're dependent upon another fallible human being who may or may not be gifted at his/her profession). So religion seems like a good way to go for folks who haven't got that kind of money.
So then, how do poor atheists get their heads fixed? This isn't an idle comment; I certainly couldn't fix myself when I was an atheist, so I'm really wondering. Anyway, I think Yorick is really setting up a duality that doesn't actually exist; I've been both and atheist and theist, and still go back and forth on the question, sometimes in the course of the same day - or minute.
I've found my own way of working this out, but really: it's not like theists are one kind of person and atheists are a completely separate species. So I'm not sure why the need to set up opposing camps on this.....
[ 24. February 2011, 13:16: Message edited by: TubaMirum ]
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
Christianity does speak to the fact that people generally can't fix themselves - that they need help from outside themselves.
I don't need to be fixed.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Why is there something instead of nothing?
Because in all the universes in which there’s nothing, the question doesn’t arise.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
Christianity does speak to the fact that people generally can't fix themselves - that they need help from outside themselves.
The discussion introduced by Yorick is about the claim that atheism posits a world devoid of ultimate purpose and meaning. You are adding another level, but one which is even more subject to ridicule from atheists.
To me, though, your point is right on. Without God we are nothing, and we have no power to move or improve without His help.
The fact that people sometime observe that so-called Christians do not seem to have availed themselves of that aid more than others is neither here nor there. That observation can only be anecdotal based on individual experience. It is also something that is impossible to judge objectively in other people. So the observation is unreliable.
My own experience is that sincere believers are the best people I have ever met and my effort has always been to emulate them.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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anteater
Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
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Posted
quote:
The discussion introduced by Yorick is about the claim that atheism posits a world devoid of ultimate purpose and meaning.
Isn't this whole issue easily squashed by the same sort of kids argument about the creator: Who created him?
So what ultimate meaning and purpose has God? None, outside of himself.
So if we accept and even worship a God without any meaning outside himself, what's so bad about a universe with no meaning outside itself?
I believe because I think it unlikely that reality can be explained purely in material terms, not because I need some ultimate meaning for life. In fact, isn't this search for meaning a sign we are not enjoying life? Who asks for the meaning of drinking a glass of fine wine?
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Schnuffle schnuffle.
Posts: 2538 | From: UK | Registered: May 2006
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
To me, though, your point is right on. Without God we are nothing, and we have no power to move or improve without His help.
But that's only because you define "something" and "improvement" through reference to God!
quote:
My own experience is that sincere believers are the best people I have ever met and my effort has always been to emulate them.
Again, that's because you define what's best according to what you believe God says. Is it any wonder that those who most closely follow what you believe God is saying will also appear to you to be the best people you have met?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Without God we are nothing
I'm something.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
Isn't this whole issue easily squashed by the same sort of kids argument about the creator: Who created him?
You can't get out of it that easily. It's turtles all the way down.
quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
I believe because I think it unlikely that reality can be explained purely in material terms, not because I need some ultimate meaning for life.
That makes sense and I agree that this more adequate explanation of reality is a big attraction for me as well.
But my criticism of Yorick's view had been that atheism leaves us without purpose and meaning to existence, and he disagreed.
I think that ultimate meaning is important. It is not taken care of just by the idea that there is a Creator - because as you note we could then ask who His creator was. Rather it is in the idea of what the creator is and what the whole point is. It all comes together for me in the idea that it is all about love, what love is, and what love does. God is love and as such has no creator but is simply Being itself.
Love is to me a very satisfying explanation that invests everything with purpose, meaning and goodness. The idea that love:
- 1. Requires something outside of itself to love
- 2. Wishes to make that something happy
- 3. Wishes to be freely united to it.
I find this to be an extremely satisfying formula. It's not about some big man in the sky but about the purpose of existence itself. Also the fact that this can only exist as a supreme intelligence - and this can only be an individual person who is a God who is infinitely loving and wise.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Without God we are nothing
I'm something.
My apologies. Of course you are.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
My own experience is that sincere believers are the best people I have ever met and my effort has always been to emulate them.
Again, that's because you define what's best according to what you believe God says. Is it any wonder that those who most closely follow what you believe God is saying will also appear to you to be the best people you have met?
Guilty as charged. Are you saying that this invalidates my experience? I already said that the observation was not reliable since it is necessarily anecdotal and subjective.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
Forgive me, Freddy, if you already explained this, but would you say what convinces you that existence necessarily has purpose? I think we only previously got as far as your gut feeling, as it were.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by kankucho:
quote:
Why is there something instead of nothing?
That's a very pretty question - but, again, one that is not cognitively meaningful. Nothingness is not an option for anyone who has the substantiality to ask the question.
A thing has to be an option for me in order for me to think about it in a cognitively meaningful way? Hmm. So, if I wonder, "does my dog realize he's a dog and not a person" that's not cognitively meaningful, just because I'll never be a dog*? Makes no sense to me to cut off my ability to wonder in that way.
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Why is there something instead of nothing?
Because in all the universes in which there’s nothing, the question doesn’t arise.
Just as in the world that wasn't created by God, you don't exist because there is no such world. This is surely a mere dodge.
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Without God we are nothing
I'm something.
And you're not without God.
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*assuming of course there is no reincarnation and I don't end up going doggy if there is
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
I think that ultimate meaning is important.
Why?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
I think that ultimate meaning is important.
Why?
No, no, that's been tried before and doesn't fit the answer. Why? 42. Just doesn't work. ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Are you saying that this invalidates my experience? I already said that the observation was not reliable since it is necessarily anecdotal and subjective.
It doesn't invalidate your subjective experience, but the circular nature of the reasoning does somewhat devalue it's usefulness as an argument in favour of theism.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Forgive me, Freddy, if you already explained this, but would you say what convinces you that existence necessarily has purpose? I think we only previously got as far as your gut feeling, as it were.
Maybe it is just a gut feeling. We're talking about what makes for a satisfying and adequate explanation, so gut feeling is surely part of it.
Beyond that, though, causation and purpose are essential philosophical aspects of our thoughts about just about everything that happens or exists. Leopards have spots for a reason, and if we don't know what it is then we are happy to speculate. Having no good answer to "Why?" questions is not motivational.
Another way to say that is that cause and purpose are accepted aspects of just about everything in life. They are integral aspects of everyone's moment-to-moment thinking and we are easily conscious of a whole hierarchy of causes and purposes in our life and thoughts. Something always moves us from one moment to the next, and the thought that something is pointless is profoundly demotivating. It is only reasonable to expect that this pattern would apply on both the small scale of individual lives and the large scale of existence itself.
It is certainly possible that existence has no purpose. I would find that disappointing.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
The discussion introduced by Yorick is about the claim that atheism posits a world devoid of ultimate purpose and meaning. You are adding another level, but one which is even more subject to ridicule from atheists.
To me, though, your point is right on. Without God we are nothing, and we have no power to move or improve without His help.
The fact that people sometime observe that so-called Christians do not seem to have availed themselves of that aid more than others is neither here nor there. That observation can only be anecdotal based on individual experience. It is also something that is impossible to judge objectively in other people. So the observation is unreliable.
My own experience is that sincere believers are the best people I have ever met and my effort has always been to emulate them.
Well, the conversation took a turn up there and PaulBC started to discuss the problem of human beings seeing themselves as "the center of the universe." I'm trying to talk about why this is really a problem, because I think it actually is - on a psychological level.
To me, it seems that Yorick ducks every question asked of him, actually! He didn't respond to that one, for example, instead trying to turn it around and use against "theists." Most recently, he's answered the question "Why is there something instead of nothing?" with the non-responsive "Because in all the universes in which there’s nothing, the question doesn’t arise."
But in any case, surely the central idea in Judeo-Christian religion at least, and its whole raison d'être, is human alienation from God? It's about deeply flawed human nature, and how to live under those conditions and in a fallen world? This, and not "how the universe was created," is what Genesis is all about. And this is a serious psychological and existential problem that has been around for a long, long time. Philosophers, too, and not only religionists, have addressed this problem as if it were as centrally important to people as it actually is. And I'm always a bit surprised to hear that some people don't seem affected by it!
But actually I think "theoretical" discussions like this one are an excellent way of creating psychological distance from that central problem.
It would be interesting to hear you expound on your last statement, the one about "sincere believers." I felt that way years ago about Catholics - that their religion had really helped them in some important way and on some very deep level. (I say "years ago" because I remember that impression from my childhood very well.)
I guess maybe I'm disagreeing with the notion that religion is about "giving meaning and purpose to life" - at least, not in the way Yorick discusses it. I think it goes much, much deeper than that.
[ 24. February 2011, 14:55: Message edited by: TubaMirum ]
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
It doesn't invalidate your subjective experience, but the circular nature of the reasoning does somewhat devalue it's usefulness as an argument in favour of theism.
It's not circular, nor am I using it as an argument for theism. I was commenting on Tuba's observation. In fact I was agreeing with you that it's not a strong argument for theism.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
It would be interesting to hear you expound on your last statement, the one about "sincere believers." I felt that way years ago about Catholics - that their religion had really helped them in some important way and on some very deep level.
The world I grew up in was the same as that of "Leave it to Beaver." All marriages were happy marriages, all families were well ordered, all the adults were wise and kind. All of them were devout believers whose lives seemed very much affected by their beliefs. Of course there were exceptions, but there are always exceptions.
My current world is pretty much the same - and I have enormous admiration for many of the people who surround me. Of course it's more complex than a child's world, and I'm much more aware of weaknesses, struggles, and flaws, but the same pattern applies.
It is also obvious to me that my own personal well-being depends on things that spring from belief and trust in God, not to mention obedience to Him. My very happy marriage and happy family life are clearly, to me, dependent on this.
Naturally, of course, this is my subjective assessment based on my subjective observations, presconceptions and prejudices.
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
I guess maybe I'm disagreeing with the notion that religion is about "giving meaning and purpose to life" - at least, not in the way Yorick discusses it. I think it goes much, much deeper than that.
Yes, meaning is just a part of it. It's really about love, which is as deep and elusive as any concept can possibly be.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
It is certainly possible that existence has no purpose. I would find that disappointing.
I would find it liberating. Just think - no consequences. No penalties for getting things wrong, whether you get them wrong through genuine error, believing the wrong things or imbalances in your brain chemistry that simply don't allow you to get them right. It means that no matter how badly you screw up, ultimately it doesn't matter! Take risks! Have fun! If there's no purpose to life then there's nobody and nothing to tell you you shouldn't, or punish you if you do!
Sure, no purpose to life means there's no reason to do anything. But it also means there's no reason not to do anything! And if there's nothing but oblivion beyond the veil of death then that means there's no Heaven - but it also means there's no Hell! Somehow, I find it hard to think of that as a bad thing!
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
It is certainly possible that existence has no purpose. I would find that disappointing.
I would find it liberating. Just think - no consequences.
To each his own.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Squibs
Shipmate
# 14408
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Why is there something instead of nothing?
Because in all the universes in which there’s nothing, the question doesn’t arise.
Hummm... appealing to the largely unscientific multi-verse hypothesis to side-step a very reasonable question.
Posts: 1124 | From: Here, there and everywhere | Registered: Dec 2008
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I think an awful lot hinges on our concept of 'Father'.
If we see a Father God as controlling and despotic, that's how we'll portray him. If we see a Father God as providing, giving freedom and unconditional love, that's how we'll portray him. I see this continuum of our 'picture' of God everywhere.
Some people adhere to their own picture very vehemently (I know I do!)
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) Very important point! I've suggested this, too. Our own family experiences crucially color the meaning of father, mother, etc. for each of us. To some extent, this is probably true of every word in the creed.
It follows that those who imagine that a group of people reciting the same verbal formula are professing the same beliefs are chasing a will-of-the-wisp.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Sure, no purpose to life means there's no reason to do anything. But it also means there's no reason not to do anything! And if there's nothing but oblivion beyond the veil of death then that means there's no Heaven - but it also means there's no Hell! Somehow, I find it hard to think of that as a bad thing!
Yippee! Just hurry up and make sure you do before you're done to.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
We're talking about what makes for a satisfying and adequate explanation
Ah, yes. Satisfying and adequate.
Adequate means sufficient to satisfy a requirement or meet a need. The ‘need’ here is to feel that there’s some higher purpose to existence. For you, only God will do, because nothing else is adequate. You need God.
This is about neediness, isn't it?
[…oh, and to answer those of you who complain I’m ignoring and evading your arguments, I just haven’t had time. I’ve been needing a wee for about three hours now...]
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by kankucho:
^
That's nice. However, the absence of God isn't the same as an absence of general causality. Terms and conditions still apply.
Of course they do, but they're not eternal. That's my point. If I want to eat a bit of shellfish and it's contaminated then whoops, game over. And that would suck. But at least I wouldn't wake up in an afterlife to find some god towering over me saying "eating shellfish is an abomination - you're going to suffer eternal torture in Hell".
I guess it depends on how you view the whole afterlife thing. If your basic assumption is that you'll go to heaven if there is one, of course you'll want it to exist. If your basic assumption is that you'll go to hell, you'll view the whole "eternal consequences" thing rather differently...
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
Yippee! Just hurry up and make sure you do before you're done to.
I was actually thinking of the sheer liberation of not having to worry about whether maybe eating shellfish or pork is hideously sinful, or whether my support for GLBT rights is going to get me damned, or whether it really ultimately matters if I have that extra pack of crisps/pint of beer/lie in on Sunday or not. All the little tiny bits of life that don't hurt anyone else, but that various religions will, in all seriousness, tell you are Abominations Unto The Lord.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I was actually thinking of the sheer liberation of not having to worry about whether maybe eating shellfish or pork is hideously sinful, or whether my support for GLBT rights is going to get me damned, or whether it really ultimately matters if I have that extra pack of crisps/pint of beer/lie in on Sunday or not. All the little tiny bits of life that don't hurt anyone else, but that various religions will, in all seriousness, tell you are Abominations Unto The Lord.
But since you don't worry about any of those things yourself - you're not Jewish, after all, and it seems clear you're not concerned about being damned for any of the other stuff - well, how can you know if it would be liberating for others or not?
BTW, some people who have faith in God - Christians, even - are at the same time agnostic on the question of Life after Death.....
[ 24. February 2011, 16:40: Message edited by: TubaMirum ]
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
(I don't know any Jews, BTW, who think it's "hideously sinful" to eat pork or shellfish. Those who observe the dietary laws don't; those who don't observe the laws, go ahead and eat these things. And there are religious Jews of both persuasions, who attend religious services of their choosing.
Actually, in my experience, people who observe the dietary laws find the eating of certain foods physically repugnant to them, not sinful; it's just become natural to avoid them.
Also, I think "eating extra crisps" offends more against secular morality these days than it does against religious belief....)
[ 24. February 2011, 16:58: Message edited by: TubaMirum ]
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
This is about neediness, isn't it?
It's about answers. Of course if answers aren't what you are looking for then why worry?
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I was actually thinking of the sheer liberation of not having to worry about whether maybe eating shellfish or pork is hideously sinful, or whether my support for GLBT rights is going to get me damned, or whether it really ultimately matters if I have that extra pack of crisps/pint of beer/lie in on Sunday or not.
Well, then, that was rather short-sighted of you, wasn't it?
You did say "anything", and if you may do anything, then presumably others may also do anything, such as rob you in the street and leave you bleeding in the gutter. That would rather spoil your fun.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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IconiumBound
Shipmate
# 754
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Posted
Just to throw a tangent into this discourse, I wonder what would be happening in a world where there was NO God only science; not religion, only atheism. Would there be no cathedrals? No works of religous art? No music based on religous texts?
Seems it would be a much less rich and lively place.
Posts: 1318 | From: Philadelphia, PA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
This is about neediness, isn't it?
It's about answers. Of course if answers aren't what you are looking for then why worry?
That's really the question. Why worry?
More to the point, why start a thread like this one, whose stated purpose is to "convey how people can just as well live in hope and with purpose without god" - and then proceed to turn every question or comment around to focus instead on the beliefs of theists?
So far, the only actual idea I've seen conveyed is that "although one may lose certain 'benefits' by abandoning belief in supernatural (and therefore highly ‘adequate’) purpose, one gains more than enough to compensate for this by knowing that one's beliefs (even that 'we simply don't know') are more demonstrably true." But this just means that any God-botherer who's on the fence should probably just stay on the theist side; it's a wash.
Anyway, all this is a straw man; religious believers have, as has been pointed out all over the place here, all sorts of beliefs - even some that could be classified as atheistic. Why would anybody on this board especially have much interest in "poking holes" in atheism?
Well, what can you do about these anti-God-botherers....?
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
[ 24. February 2011, 17:39: Message edited by: TubaMirum ]
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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kankucho
Shipmate
# 14318
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I was actually thinking of the sheer liberation of not having to worry about whether maybe eating shellfish or pork is hideously sinful, or whether my support for GLBT rights is going to get me damned, or whether it really ultimately matters if I have that extra pack of crisps/pint of beer/lie in on Sunday or not.
Well, then, that was rather short-sighted of you, wasn't it?
You did say "anything", and if you may do anything, then presumably others may also do anything, such as rob you in the street and leave you bleeding in the gutter. That would rather spoil your fun.
I think we agreed that general causality and the Golden Rule would still be observed for their inherent merits.
That certain theists are so afraid of the mayhem they would reek if they lost sight of their imaginary babysitter says a lot more about them than it does about about the godless, the majority of whom are perfectly capable of behaving themselves.
[ 24. February 2011, 17:46: Message edited by: kankucho ]
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"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself" – Dr. Carl Sagan
Kankucho Bird Blues
Posts: 1262 | From: Kuon-ganjo, E17 | Registered: Nov 2008
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The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by kankucho:
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I was actually thinking of the sheer liberation of not having to worry about whether maybe eating shellfish or pork is hideously sinful, or whether my support for GLBT rights is going to get me damned, or whether it really ultimately matters if I have that extra pack of crisps/pint of beer/lie in on Sunday or not.
Well, then, that was rather short-sighted of you, wasn't it?
You did say "anything", and if you may do anything, then presumably others may also do anything, such as rob you in the street and leave you bleeding in the gutter. That would rather spoil your fun.
I think we agreed that general causality and the Golden Rule would still be observed for their inherent merits.
That certain theists are so afraid of the mayhem they would reek if they lost sight of their imaginary babysitter says a lot more about them than it does about about the godless, the majority of whom are perfectly capable of behaving themselves.
I find the idea I need a baby sitter at my age patronising. (tangent The bloody local teenagers cost a small fortune /tangent).
The point of the 'Golden' rule is to free us from the law so we can concentrate on doing the best for others. The way to love God is in relationship with others. The point of God being incarnate was, partly, to show us how. In person. Because God cannot be understood in terms of infinite all powerful being.
It is beyond our comprehension, no matter how aesthetically pleasing the concept is. God as concept is unproveable. God as person is knowable.
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
Posts: 1085 | Registered: Feb 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I was actually thinking of the sheer liberation of not having to worry about whether maybe eating shellfish or pork is hideously sinful, or whether my support for GLBT rights is going to get me damned, or whether it really ultimately matters if I have that extra pack of crisps/pint of beer/lie in on Sunday or not.
Or the things the various religions say about taking care of the poor.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IconiumBound:
Would there be no cathedrals? No works of religous art?
I'm sure that the art would be all wrong. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif) ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Coming late to the discussion but the above statement seems to imply atheism is more demonstrably true (via science) than faith?
Yorick did backpedal on that one, if you care to read the thread.
To you. Not to Adeodatus. He said it again.
If you care to read the thread.
Of course atheism is demonstrably true - if you accept atheism's criteria for what counts as "demonstrably true".
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick
Understanding what really happened in the first 10^-32 seconds of expansion knocks boring old God’s magical zappery into a cocked hat.
It really doesn't, you know. Some of us just haven't got the turn of mind to be impressed by very big numbers. Even less so by very small ones.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by kankucho:
I think we agreed that general causality and the Golden Rule would still be observed for their inherent merits.
I must have overlooked that agreement, but fine.
quote:
That certain theists are so afraid of the mayhem they would reek if they lost sight of their imaginary babysitter says a lot more about them than it does about about the godless, the majority of whom are perfectly capable of behaving themselves.
Count me out. The Bible is not a rule book. Atheists can be just as ethical and virtuous as anyone; and actually Christians who do the right thing only out of fear of going to hell are not virtuous, merely prudent.
I only meant to point out that Marvin appeared to be saying something major with the word "all", but in fact he was just setting up a straw man that Christians knocked down ages ago.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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kankucho
Shipmate
# 14318
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Posted
Straw men aside, could I attempt to move the show along a bit by asking what people do on a day-to-day basis, which is guided by their supposed assurance (if that's the right word) of an ultimate purpose dictated by their religious belief?
An ancient Greek proverb of anonymous origin says:
quote:
A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in.
I'm not all that old (47), but I'm inspired and guided by the wisdom of this proverb. I think many others are too - an indication that we live in a great society perhaps?
As a conservation volunteer, I actually do plant trees, in places I will probably never return to. Through charity donations, I finance two life-changing medical operations each year for people I will never meet and who who will never know who their benefactor was. Crucially, although the prayer of St Ignatius is undeniably an excellent code for living a happy life, religious belief is not required to appreciate and act on either the prayer or the proverb: only a realisation of the pleasure to be had from doing things that benefit others.
So what do people of faith actually do to demonstrate, as cited in Yorick's OP, 'the expectation that [their] relationships and … inner qualities will last forever and therefore have purpose and meaning beyond the obvious'? How do you make this 'ultimate, eternal purpose' show in your life - and would you not do the same things were you not guided by it?
And I put the converse questions to the atheists.
[ 24. February 2011, 22:51: Message edited by: kankucho ]
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"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself" – Dr. Carl Sagan
Kankucho Bird Blues
Posts: 1262 | From: Kuon-ganjo, E17 | Registered: Nov 2008
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The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by kankucho:
i] How do you make this 'ultimate, eternal purpose' show in your life - and would you not do the same things were you not guided by it?
And I put the converse questions to the atheists.
I think +Tom puts it well:
quote:
"But what we can and must do in the present, if we are obedient to the gospel, if we are following Jesus, and if we indwelt, energised and directed by the Spirit, is to build for the kingdom. This brings us back to 1 Corinthians 15:58 once more: what you do in the Lord is not in vain. You are not oiling the wheels of a machine that's about to fall over a cliff. You are not restoring a great painting that's shortly going to be thrown on the fire. You are not planting roses in a garden that's about to be dug up for a building site. You are- strange though it may seem, almost as hard to believe as the resurrection itself- accomplishing something which will become , in due course, part of God's new world. Every act of love, gratitude and kindness; every work of art or music inspired by the love of God and delight in the beauty of his creation; every minute spent teaching a severely handicapped child to read or to walk; every act of care and nurture, of comfort and support, for ones fellow non-human creatures; and of course every prayer, all Spirit-led teaching, every deed which spreads the gospel, builds up the church, embraces and embodies holiness rather than corruption, and makes the name of Jesus honoured in the world- all of this will find its way, through the resurrecting power of God, into the new creation which God will one day make. That is the logic of the mission of God"
Tom Wright, "Surprised by Hope" SPCK London, 2007. Chapter 13, pp 219. His emphasis.
The answer is through everything- because God is a redeeming God.
I'm lucky enough to have a job where I get to steward the environment, although more money and volunteers are always welcome!
[ 25. February 2011, 05:25: Message edited by: The Midge ]
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
Posts: 1085 | Registered: Feb 2002
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by kankucho:
Straw men aside, could I attempt to move the show along a bit by asking what people do on a day-to-day basis, which is guided by their supposed assurance (if that's the right word) of an ultimate purpose dictated by their religious belief?
I don't think religious belief offers the answer to why (ultimate purpose and meaning) anymore than atheism does.
The difference between them is that the religious person believes there is one (even if we can't know it), and the atheist doesn't.
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Adequate means sufficient to satisfy a requirement or meet a need. The ‘need’ here is to feel that there’s some higher purpose to existence. For you, only God will do, because nothing else is adequate. You need God.
This is about neediness, isn't it?
I saw what you did there.
If we turn back neediness to something more akin to Freddy's original point then we have 'natural desire' - like thirsting for water or hungering for food.
Is the person who either suppresses or doesn't possess natural human desires somehow subhuman?
See what I did there? The same as what you did.
Posts: 6834 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2007
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
Is the person who either suppresses or doesn't possess natural human desires somehow subhuman?
No, I think you’re missing the point. This desire is simply the human condition (the clue here is in your own word ‘natural’). We’re hardwired with these desires and needs- they are the result of our natural makeup. Similar natural (and deeply primitive) instincts inform much of our behaviour- sex, hunting, territory, and so on. The desire/need for higher purpose (and god) is innate. I don’t think it’s subhuman to suppress it; rather, it is a sign of the capacity of our intelligence that we can see and understand it, and even ‘rise above’ it and control it. Although I’d quite like to fuck most human females of fertile age, I elect not to. I control the impulse to murder my neighbour in his sleep and steal his wine cellar. In the same way, I appreciate my natural desire to believe in purpose/god for exactly what it is, and reconcile it with my experience that he/she/it does not exist.
Furthermore, for me, my own natural neediness tells me something essential about the prevalence of gods in human history (in the last 6,000 years, we have amassed a catalogue of at least 3700 supernatural beings, of which 2870 can be considered deities). Obviously, we need god in some form or other, and that is why we invented it. The Christian God happens to be exceptionally durable, because the religion and theology that is constructed to support the deity is remarkably robust and effective in reinforcing this naturally innate human desire/need.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
But since you don't worry about any of those things yourself - you're not Jewish, after all, and it seems clear you're not concerned about being damned for any of the other stuff - well, how can you know if it would be liberating for others or not?
Yeah, but what if the Jews are right? And I'm not saying it should be liberating for anyone else - just that I would find it so, if only I could actually believe it.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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