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Source: (consider it) Thread: Hell: Come on down, Trisagion
Jahlove
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# 10290

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or that they are, in fact, a Bore [Razz]

--------------------
“Sing like no one's listening, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody's watching, and live like its heaven on earth.” - Mark Twain

Posts: 6477 | From: Alice's Restaurant (UK Franchise) | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784

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I've been looking for the "Act like a little kid" signal. I just haven't found it yet.

It must be on somewhere.

On an entirely different topic, Ruth, it bothers me no end that buggery went on and that some folks in church hierarchy did nothing about it, or even helped cover it up.

I am bothered no end that buggery happened in the Boy Scouts as well. And, as an adult volunteer in the Boy Scouts I take specialized training every year to help make sure it doesn't ever happen again. Even with the training being required before any adult leader can be around any scouts, I feel certain it will happen again because human beings are human beings.

That being said, every time someone brings up a reference to my being associated with buggery because I have on a Boy Scout uniform* I feel strongly like reaching out and giving them a black eye.

Knowing how I feel about the Boy Scouts, I think I better understand how members of the RCC feel about pedophilia being discussed in connection with the RCC.

I think I understand your feelings as well. And, no, jumping on you for not being nice to some of the forceful posters here is not fair, or necessary.

I guess when you come down to it, I am saying that you may never be able to have a rational discussion on this topic because it is almost incapable of being discussed rationally unless everyone is willing to discuss it rationally.

And no one seems to be willing.

__________
*I look idiotic in it, BTW.

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Eliab
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# 9153

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quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
Check out the Differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy thread to see the effect in practice on a thread that should be brimming with comments from Catholic Shipmates but who just know that if we show up out will come the prejudices and half-arsed bullshit.

I'm sympathetic to that. It must be tiring to be always having to answer the same accusations, often as irrelevant tangents, whenever a specifically Catholic viewpoint is discussed.

But RuthW is right on this one. She isn't saying that it's right to have this dragged into every vaguely Catholic thread - she's saying that where a major point of contention is whether the Catholic Church is infallible (or at least authoritative) on questions of morals, the moral record of the Catholic Church is something which can arguably be considered relevant.

If it were being argued that Bishop N is right about Issue X because he is learned, wise and good, then arguing the contrary is true because Bishop M was a cad about emotive Issue Y is irrelevant, and can fairly be ruled out of order to encourage discussion of Issue X to keep on topic. But if it is argued that Bishop N is right because he is a Catholic bishop, then it is relevant that Catholic Bishop M was a rotter, because it supports the view that merely being a Catholic bishop does not give one moral authority. The fact that Bishop M's faults have been discussed at tedious length elsewhere doesn't make it any less a relevant argument, and people should be allowed to argue it.

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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"

Richard Dawkins

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Jahlove
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[Overused] Tortuf

--------------------
“Sing like no one's listening, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody's watching, and live like its heaven on earth.” - Mark Twain

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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163

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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
For those, like Ruth W, who think all Catholics shy away from certain subjects ...

Where have I said this?
I thought you might be inferring it Ruth. It was not meant maliciously but for your elucidation.

"Pete's World": I'll leave that to him.
[Big Grin]

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Well...

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RooK

1 of 6
# 1852

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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Trisagion issued a personal attack in the Styx. The hosts there read right over it the first time around, so I couldn't call it a personal attack in the OP on this thread without the risk of being charged with usurping hostly authority in levelling an accusation of commandment-breaking.

It is true that of all the boards on the Ship, The Styx is the most lazily-Hosted. Buncha fuckin' slackers.

And I'm sorry.

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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357

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quote:
Originally posted by Jahlove:
Dear Christ, you're a bore RuthW

quote:
Originally posted by Jahlove:
or that they are, in fact, a Bore [Razz]

quote:
Originally posted by Jahlove:
[Overused] Tortuf

Given the deep, fascinating, and thrilling nature of your total contribution to this thread, your accusing RuthW of being a bore has a certain irony value.

quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
On an entirely different topic, Ruth, it bothers me no end that buggery went on and that some folks in church hierarchy did nothing about it, or even helped cover it up.

I am bothered no end that buggery happened in the Boy Scouts as well. And, as an adult volunteer in the Boy Scouts I take specialized training every year to help make sure it doesn't ever happen again. Even with the training being required before any adult leader can be around any scouts, I feel certain it will happen again because human beings are human beings.

That being said, every time someone brings up a reference to my being associated with buggery because I have on a Boy Scout uniform* I feel strongly like reaching out and giving them a black eye.

Knowing how I feel about the Boy Scouts, I think I better understand how members of the RCC feel about pedophilia being discussed in connection with the RCC.

Oh, possibly. But the claims made about the Boy Scouts are qualitatively different, so are the campaigns they launch. As far as I know, the Boy Scouts are not in the business of first claiming a spurious moral authority and then using this claimed moral authority to launch a mendacious* war on a major aspect public health, and many major aspects of rights about people I care about.

Every time the Roman Catholic Church makes a claim backed by its supposed moral authority that we should do something that directly attacks those I care about**, the demonstrated lack of moral authority becomes relevant.

I understand how Roman Catholics feel about being beaten with the child abuse issue. But in my experience it only comes up when they've been using their non-existent moral authority as a club with which to hurt other people.

* And given regular attempts by the RCC to confuse contraception with abortion, I mean mendacious.

** A category that includes just off the top of my head women, gay men (and women), transsexuals, and atheists.

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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.

Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.

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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784

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You wanna talk about the mendacious war on women's health and I am there with you 100%.

Anytime it is OK to have hospitals pay for little pills to make guy's weenie's bigger, but not for contraception is wink and a nod theology.

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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032

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I think Eliab has covered the issue pretty well, at least from my own take on it.
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
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Eliab generally does.
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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
I understand how Roman Catholics feel about being beaten with the child abuse issue. But in my experience it only comes up when they've been using their non-existent moral authority as a club with which to hurt other people.

Exactly. They're sitting in their glass house throwing stones all over the place and expecting us not to throw any back. It's hypocrisy, plain and simple.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
I understand how Roman Catholics feel about being beaten with the child abuse issue. But in my experience it only comes up when they've been using their non-existent moral authority as a club with which to hurt other people.

Exactly. They're sitting in their glass house throwing stones all over the place and expecting us not to throw any back. It's hypocrisy, plain and simple.
Doesn't make them unique. The RCC is the biggest and has been going on for longer than any other but there are new kids on the block who are no better. I just thank God they are smaller, so don't hold sway over so many.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Doesn't make them unique.

I never said it did.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Justinian
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Doesn't make them unique. The RCC is the biggest and has been going on for longer than any other but there are new kids on the block who are no better. I just thank God they are smaller, so don't hold sway over so many.

They RCC isn't qualitatively unique. Just very large, very loud, incredibly single minded for an organisation that size, and as arrogant as sin because they think they hold The Truth. I believe there are quite a number of denominations (starting with the Latter Day Saints and the Jehova's Witnesses) that if they had the size and influence of the RCC would be much, much worse.

But although the RCC may not be qualitatively unique, it is quantitatively unique. It claims about half of all Christians in the world - or more than any other religion except the combined total of Islam.

--------------------
My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.

Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.

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Matt Black

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# 2210

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quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
I think Eliab has covered the issue pretty well, at least from my own take on it.

Seconded. Or thirded.

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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Barnabas62
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# 9110

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quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
Check out the Differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy thread to see the effect in practice on a thread that should be brimming with comments from Catholic Shipmates but who just know that if we show up out will come the prejudices and half-arsed bullshit.

I'm sympathetic to that. It must be tiring to be always having to answer the same accusations, often as irrelevant tangents, whenever a specifically Catholic viewpoint is discussed.

But RuthW is right on this one. She isn't saying that it's right to have this dragged into every vaguely Catholic thread - she's saying that where a major point of contention is whether the Catholic Church is infallible (or at least authoritative) on questions of morals, the moral record of the Catholic Church is something which can arguably be considered relevant.

If it were being argued that Bishop N is right about Issue X because he is learned, wise and good, then arguing the contrary is true because Bishop M was a cad about emotive Issue Y is irrelevant, and can fairly be ruled out of order to encourage discussion of Issue X to keep on topic. But if it is argued that Bishop N is right because he is a Catholic bishop, then it is relevant that Catholic Bishop M was a rotter, because it supports the view that merely being a Catholic bishop does not give one moral authority. The fact that Bishop M's faults have been discussed at tedious length elsewhere doesn't make it any less a relevant argument, and people should be allowed to argue it.

That issue has been discussed in the Styx, Eliab. Opinions differ. Nothing wrong in making your point there.

BTW, did you notice that RuthW thinks Trisagion was right? Purely on the thread issue which gave rise to the Styx thread and this Hell thread. RuthW and I aren't arguing about whether the nuns should submit to the internal procedures, or even whether the internal procedures were properly applied. Simply whether other actions by other Bishops might be argued as relevant in discussions here.

RuthW and I are also in agreement over the nuns seeking to have it both ways. The authority of the Catholic church is not non-existent for them, however much it may appear so to others. I also agree with RuthW in that I think they should walk on a major issue of conscience. The options are put up with it or get out.

It's different for us nonco or TEC prot types. We have greater scope to stay inside the tent and piss out. Diversity, sometimes to the point of incoherence, is perfectly normal in our neck of the woods. Catholicism doesn't work that way.

The argument in the Styx isn't a moral issue, but a procedural issue, which has a few wider implications. Just saying. These things can get very muddled.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Jahlove
Tied to the mast
# 10290

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quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
quote:
Originally posted by Jahlove:
Dear Christ, you're a bore RuthW

quote:
Originally posted by Jahlove:
or that they are, in fact, a Bore [Razz]

quote:
Originally posted by Jahlove:
[Overused] Tortuf

Given the deep, fascinating, and thrilling nature of your total contribution to this thread, your accusing RuthW of being a bore has a certain irony value.


That word, I do not think it means what you think it means.


Irony

--------------------
“Sing like no one's listening, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody's watching, and live like its heaven on earth.” - Mark Twain

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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163

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Like most Hell threads this one seems to have meandered cheerfully and not so cheerfully around the block, with the usual misunderstandings and the odd, unusual, occasional glimpse of what-might-actually-be-reality. [Big Grin]

--------------------
Well...

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Trisagion issued a personal attack in the Styx. The hosts there read right over it the first time around, so I couldn't call it a personal attack in the OP on this thread without the risk of being charged with usurping hostly authority in levelling an accusation of commandment-breaking.

It is true that of all the boards on the Ship, The Styx is the most lazily-Hosted. Buncha fuckin' slackers.

And I'm sorry.

Thanks, though, for the record, I wasn't meaning to point a finger or elicit an apology, just to assert that I'm not entirely lacking in regard to good form.

Jahlove: Bite me.

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Jahlove
Tied to the mast
# 10290

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Pass. Thanks all the same.

--------------------
“Sing like no one's listening, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody's watching, and live like its heaven on earth.” - Mark Twain

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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones - and the RCC lives in a crystal palace.

But they don't call it that anymore

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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
Check out the Differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy thread to see the effect in practice on a thread that should be brimming with comments from Catholic Shipmates but who just know that if we show up out will come the prejudices and half-arsed bullshit.

This is precious. "I'm not going to post on that thread because of the violence inherent in the system. Thus the fact that I'm not posting there proves the system is inherently violent! QED!"

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520

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quote:
Originally posted by Jahlove:
Dear Christ, you're a bore RuthW

quote:
Originally posted by Jahlove:
or that they are, in fact, a Bore [Razz]

quote:
Originally posted by Jahlove:
[Overused] Tortuf

quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
Given the deep, fascinating, and thrilling nature of your total contribution to this thread, your accusing RuthW of being a bore has a certain irony value.

quote:
Originally posted by Jahlove:
That word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

Irony

quote:
2.a. Incongruity between what might be expected and what actually occurs: "Hyde noted the irony of Ireland's copying the nation she most hated" (Richard Kain).


--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493

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quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
... the claims made about the Boy Scouts are qualitatively different, so are the campaigns they launch. As far as I know, the Boy Scouts are not in the business of first claiming a spurious moral authority and then using this claimed moral authority to launch a mendacious* war on a major aspect public health, and many major aspects of rights about people I care about.

Also, I am not aware of any case where Scouting authorities knew a Scouter was abusing boys and just moved him to another troop, without telling anyone in the new troop about the abuse. Can anyone correct me on this?

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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin

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Uncle Pete

Loyaute me lie
# 10422

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Even BSA doesn't have the power to move scouters like that, Joanna P.

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Even more so than I was before

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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493

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So that is another reason why the comparison between Scouting and the RCC is not valid. It is the cover-up that causes outrage, as much as (if not more so than) the abuse.

--------------------
"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin

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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153

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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Eliab:
[qb] That issue has been discussed in the Styx, Eliab. Opinions differ. Nothing wrong in making your point there.

I'm reading the original Purg thread only occasionally, and don't intend to contribute to it, so the hosting guidance there, and the discussion of it in the Styx doesn't really affect me. But I do like both Trisagion and RuthW, and care more about their dispute than I did about the hosting decision, hence choosing to post here.

[QUOTE][QB] BTW, did you notice that RuthW thinks Trisagion was right? Purely on the thread issue which gave rise to the Styx thread and this Hell thread. RuthW and I aren't arguing about whether the nuns should submit to the internal procedures, or even whether the internal procedures were properly applied. Simply whether other actions by other Bishops might be argued as relevant in discussions here.
[...]
It's different for us nonco or TEC prot types. We have greater scope to stay inside the tent and piss out. Diversity, sometimes to the point of incoherence, is perfectly normal in our neck of the woods. Catholicism doesn't work that way.

I think that supports RuthW's point. The way that internal discipline works within Catholicism is directly on the point under discussion. But Catholic internal discipline works that way because the Catholic Church believes certain things about itself as an institution, and as a source of authority. It isn't just a given, in the "oh, that's just the Catholics for you" sense, it is the product of a specific view of Catholic moral authority.

It is therefore possible to engage with and challenge Catholic moral authority in a way that is relevant to the question of how the Catholic bishops should treat the dissenting Catholic nuns. It is an arguable position that (for example) "The bishops are too heavy handed, because they ought not to have the confidence that they do in the rightness of their position as representatives of the magisterium, because the moral authority of the magisterium was holed below the waterline when other Catholic bishops in good standing did this, this, this, this and this."

And, because we can all fill in the reasons that would be given for ourselves, I can see why Catholics like Trisagion find it so vexing. We've heard it before, many, many times. But that doesn't make the argument irrelevant whenever the question of Catholic moral authority is raised. Allowing the argument to be made and answered on threads where it is directly relevant (which is what RuthW wants) is not about turning Purg into a:

quote:
liberal anti-Catholic echo chamber
.

It is about wanting relevant points to be admissible in serious debate, even when those points can confidently be predicted to piss people off.

On the hosting issue, there's a balance to be struck, because if this becomes the primary point in dispute on all vaguely-Catholic threads, it will kill off debate on secondary issues. Trisagion is quite right that there is a risk to be avoided. But I can't see any evidence that killing off debate is what RuthW wants, and I don't think that anyone at all familiar with RuthW's character on these boards could reasonably think that that was want she wants. Trisagion's irritation is understandable, but the accusation is unwarranted.

--------------------
"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"

Richard Dawkins

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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

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I understand your point perfectly, Eliab. Sometimes there is a difficult balance to be struck here. It helps a lot if folks become more aware of the difficulty which I think is inherent in our guidelines and our ethos.

I guess what I'm trying to do is make that point more visible. You are a very "discerning" Shipmate. I always get a lot out of reading your stuff. I'm looking to you for understanding. I really don't mind if you see things a bit differently.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Louise
Shipmate
# 30

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quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:

On the hosting issue, there's a balance to be struck, because if this becomes the primary point in dispute on all vaguely-Catholic threads, it will kill off debate on secondary issues. Trisagion is quite right that there is a risk to be avoided. But I can't see any evidence that killing off debate is what RuthW wants, and I don't think that anyone at all familiar with RuthW's character on these boards could reasonably think that that was want she wants. Trisagion's irritation is understandable, but the accusation is unwarranted.

What seems to me to have got off lightly is the role of Trisagion's heavy-handed anti-abortion rhetoric in derailing that thread, and the lame excuse he gave for it. He seemed to be claiming he expected people to take his comment on 'the holocaust of abortion' without thinking of the most normal and obvious connotations of the word in English - the Nazi genocides (and Trisagion is, if I recall correctly, not shy of making those connections elsewhere when he posts about eugenics).

This is a bit like someone posting 'the Pope and secretary are definitely gay' and then after causing outrage, claiming they just meant Benedict XVI and Fr Georg merely looked awfully jolly.

He then played the victim when his flame-baiting had fairly predictable consequences. Perhaps he's just clunkingly clueless in an IngoB sense in that he doesn't see such pronouncements as provocative or hurtful to others or self-defeating, but if you don't want the debate to head for Godwin and the gutter, common sense should tell you not to fling about the term holocaust, however you choose to define it.

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Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

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quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
.. if you don't want the debate to head for Godwin and the gutter, common sense should tell you not to fling about the term holocaust, however you choose to define it.

Word to the wise, Louise. I hope it will be heard.

Bloody Godwin was a side show anyway. I liked this observation from the Wiki article on Godwin's Law.

quote:
Godwin has stated that he introduced Godwin's law in 1990 as an experiment in memetics.

Godwin's law does not claim to articulate a fallacy; it is instead framed as a memetic tool to reduce the incidence of inappropriate hyperbolic comparisons.

Ain't that the deep truth underlying quite a lot of this stuff.

"Beware inappropriate hyperbolic comparisons!."

Just hard to work out what is hyperbolic sometimes. Rather than just bollocks. Comparisons are odious.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
Perhaps he's just clunkingly clueless

No, I think it's worse than that. I think he's of the school of thought that says "it's OK when I do it but it's out of order when you do it". So in his own twisted sense of morality, it's fine for him to accuse us of being nazis, but it's emphatically not OK for us to reciprocate.

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Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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For the love of Mike, Barnabas62, the reference to the Nazis on the Vatican v. nuns thread wasn't a comparison! Why is that so hard to see? Croesus referred to the historical fact that the Vatican did a deal with the Third Reich. He did not compare the Vatican with the Nazis -- he said the Vatican and the Nazis had an association with each other, which was relevant to the thread because the Vatican is pissed off at the nuns because it doesn't like some of their friends.

Godwin's Law is therefore irrelevant. My word. It's a really simple concept, the difference between a comparison and the citation of an historical fact.

I can certainly see the point that every thread having to do with Catholicism shouldn't be bogged down with anti-Catholic venomous rant. At the same time, the likes of Trisagion shouldn't be allowed to cry foul every time a non-Catholic criticizes their their church. His bitching about me not sending him a PM and not having anything else to say for himself and his completely inappropriate comments in the Styx to me show that my original post here was entirely accurate - he needs to grow up.

Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

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It was a comment on Louise's observation about the use of "holocaust", RuthW. A cat which Trisagion let out of the bag.

Nowt to do with Croesos. At least, not in my mind at that point.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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This thread needs to stop straying into the discussion of hostly decisions - now.

Think²
Hellhost

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

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Sorry for the stray, HellHosts. Just didn't see it. Too close, I guess.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163

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Oh no! People are "straying" in Hell!

I thought, once you strayed there, you couldn't stray further.

Oh, I see! Even Hell has rules. [Big Grin]

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Well...

Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
Oh, I see! Even Hell has rules. [Big Grin]

Of course it does. If it didn't, I'd be able to disemvowel every fucker who posts something I don't like.

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Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688

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There wouldn't be a H&A day coming along any time soon, would there? [Two face]

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Rent my holiday home in the South of France

Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397

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Tht wld hrt.

[fckng xpst]

[ 20. June 2012, 12:19: Message edited by: Patdys ]

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Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.

Posts: 3511 | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
I'm getting tired of taking crap while the likes of Trisagion get to cry, "Oh, ouch, you're hurting me because I'm Catholic, you bigot you! Waaaaaaaaah!!11!!" every time someone criticizes their church.

I can see that. The near constant screaming noise would be like having a bad case of tinnitus.

I think Trisagion has been unusually short-tempered on SoF for quite a while now. No idea why. Best I can see, nothing much has changed here, and there never has been any indication that it would. I hope he recovers his balance soon, or simply gives this place a rest.

Finally, on this moral authority stuff: If a child abuser says that stealing is wrong, it does not become right due to his own moral turpitude. If a celibate (and continent) nun says that adultery is right, it does not become right due to her own moral rectitude. Catholics do not assign moral authority to a bishop on account of his personal behaviour, but on account of his office. An office that is - as far as universally binding decisions are concerned - not exercised individually, but communally with the other bishops. The authority that the Church claims in these matters is ultimately given by Christ through the Holy Spirit, not "earned". You can reject this claim, of course. But the Church is not in fact asking anyone to follow her moral pronouncements because her official mouthpieces are so morally pure. Cries of hypocrisy are hence simply mistaken. And not a little boring.

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
But the Church is not in fact asking anyone to follow her moral pronouncements because her official mouthpieces are so morally pure. Cries of hypocrisy are hence simply mistaken. And not a little boring.

My "cry of hypocrisy" was not directed at that, though. It was directed at the attitude that it's OK for the RCC to attack people over and over again for the same reason (i.e. their sexuality), but it's not OK for other people to attack the RCC over and over again for the same reason (i.e. covering up paedophile priests).

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Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
But the Church is not in fact asking anyone to follow her moral pronouncements because her official mouthpieces are so morally pure. Cries of hypocrisy are hence simply mistaken. And not a little boring.

My "cry of hypocrisy" was not directed at that, though. It was directed at the attitude that it's OK for the RCC to attack people over and over again for the same reason (i.e. their sexuality), but it's not OK for other people to attack the RCC over and over again for the same reason (i.e. covering up paedophile priests).
I think you could have been clearer on that.

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
We don't turn any scouting or police threads into a thread about paedophilia.

To the best of my knowledge neither the scouting movement nor the police force claim to be the ultimate perfect arbiters of morality, sent to earth by God Himself to tell the rest of us exactly what we should do and how we should live.

If they were to make such claims, then any evidence proving that they are, in fact, just as morally bankrupt as they claim the rest of us are would be very relevant when discussing instances of them coming down like a ton of bricks on those they perceive as falling short.


This post, for instance, seems to imply that - unlike the police and the scouts - Catholic clergy claim to be the ultimate perfect arbiters of morality, despite being as "morally bankrupt" as the rest of us. As IngoB says, the Church's authority does not stem from the good behaviour of its priests and bishops, nor does the Church make any such claims.

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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.

Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Triple Tiara

Ship's Papabile
# 9556

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To Marvin:

In which case you are simply batting the wrong ball.

It's quite correct for the Catholic Church to be criticised - attacked, even, if you wish - for its moral failures.

What the name of the game has become, however, is that whenever a new issue arises we inevitably leap back at the same old issue. That then makes the new issue quite impossible to discuss because the old issue is such an easy one to get outraged about.

[ 20. June 2012, 15:45: Message edited by: Triple Tiara ]

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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.

Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Chesterbelloc

Tremendous trifler
# 3128

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
My "cry of hypocrisy" was not directed at that, though. It was directed at the attitude that it's OK for the RCC to attack people over and over again for the same reason (i.e. their sexuality), but it's not OK for other people to attack the RCC over and over again for the same reason (i.e. covering up paedophile priests).

Catholic Shippies here on the boards are "attacking people over and over again for their sexuality"? Really?

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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."

Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644

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Apparently each time the Roman Catholic Church refuses to change its teaching on human sexuality counts as an attack on a person's sexuality.

[ 20. June 2012, 16:47: Message edited by: Beeswax Altar ]

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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan

Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
ToujoursDan

Ship's prole
# 10578

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The Catholic Church can teach what it wants.

When it sponsors referrenda taking away the right for gay couples to receive (secular) tax benefits, property rights, hospital visitation rights, etc. than I'd call that an attack. When bishops issue statements demonizing gay couples as an affront on all that is good and holy, I'd call that an attack. When I see the Catholic Church accepting public funding from the taxpayer for its schools but refusing to allow gay students to call themselves gay openly, I'd call that an attack.

I'm not a Catholic. I don't accept the moral authority of the Catholic Church. I should not be bound to Catholic dogma any more than I should be to Hasidic or Shia dogma. I don't see the latter two groups trying to make me so.

[ 20. June 2012, 16:53: Message edited by: ToujoursDan ]

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"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan

Posts: 3734 | From: NYC | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Chesterbelloc

Tremendous trifler
# 3128

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quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
I should not be bound to Catholic dogma any more than I should be to Hasidic or Shia dogma. I don't see the latter two groups trying to make me so.

Actually, on the gay marriage issue here in the UK, many Islamic and Jewish groups have indeed been campaigning to keep the law as it is. I would be surprised if this were not the case in the US too.

As citizens of their countries, religiously observant people, like their non-(or differently-)religious fellow citizens, are entitled to get involved in campaigning for or against certain changes in the law. It doesn't mean they are "making you live by their dogmas" - the law will be as the legislators enact, and in democracies you get to vote for them every bit as much as they do. Catholics in democracies have to live with legislation that permits what they believe to be the mass-murder of innocents every day. We pretty much have to suck that up unless we can change the law. That's the way democracies work.

Anyway, Marvin's post was about a ship-related phenomenon. I don't see much attacking of people for their sexuality from Catholics hereabouts. Do you?

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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."

Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
<snip>
I'm not a Catholic. I don't accept the moral authority of the Catholic Church. I should not be bound to Catholic dogma any more than I should be to Hasidic or Shia dogma. I don't see the latter two groups trying to make me so.

In those circumstances, why post? You'll only raise your blood pressure and give yourself bad digestion.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
ToujoursDan

Ship's prole
# 10578

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quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
I should not be bound to Catholic dogma any more than I should be to Hasidic or Shia dogma. I don't see the latter two groups trying to make me so.

Actually, on the gay marriage issue here in the UK, many Islamic and Jewish groups have indeed been campaigning to keep the law as it is. I would be surprised if this were not the case in the US too.

As citizens of their countries, religiously observant people, like their non-(or differently-)religious fellow citizens, are entitled to get involved in campaigning for or against certain changes in the law. It doesn't mean they are "making you live by their dogmas" - the law will be as the legislators enact, and in democracies you get to vote for them every bit as much as they do. Catholics in democracies have to live with legislation that permits what they believe to be the mass-murder of innocents every day. We pretty much have to suck that up unless we can change the law. That's the way democracies work.

Anyway, Marvin's post was about a ship-related phenomenon. I don't see much attacking of people for their sexuality from Catholics hereabouts. Do you?

So Islamic groups are campaigning to take away the right to drink alcohol or for women to be uncovered in the UK?

(As for attacks on sexuality on this Ship, read Dead Horses.)

[ 20. June 2012, 17:15: Message edited by: ToujoursDan ]

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"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan

Posts: 3734 | From: NYC | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
ToujoursDan

Ship's prole
# 10578

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quote:
It doesn't mean they are "making you live by their dogmas" - the law will be as the legislators enact, and in democracies you get to vote for them every bit as much as they do.
Of course it does.

quote:
We pretty much have to suck that up unless we can change the law. That's the way democracies work.
Ummm... No. Democracies shouldn't be holding votes on minority rights in the first place. They're Rights by definition and not up to the tyranny of the majority to grant them or take them away.

(Next you'll be telling black people in the South that States should've been given the opportunity to hold referrenda to repeal Jim Crow Laws and determine whether blacks could have been given the opportunity to attend white schools or drink from white water fountains. If they lost (which given the mood at the time, they would have) they should suck it up and accept their inferior status. That,s easy for someone that isn't affected to say.

You really don't understand how democracies work at all.)

[ 20. June 2012, 17:28: Message edited by: ToujoursDan ]

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"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan

Posts: 3734 | From: NYC | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged



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