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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
IngoB has said that in his estimation, the thing that most seriously stands in the way of the reconciliation of the two churches is the question of remarriage.
Mind you, not necessarily because the doctrinal disagreement is irresolvable in principle. I just cannot imagine either side moving for the fear of the fallout, whether that is conscious or subconscious. Assume that tomorrow the RCC adopted something like the Orthodox position. They would get absolutely hammered for having caused so much grief to separated couples, and who would take any other RC hard line position seriously again? Assume that tomorrow the Orthodox adopted something like the RC position. There would be a massive outcry by those suddenly declared "invalidly remarried", by their supporters and simply by laity seeing a "right" being revoked. Finally, there seems to be no "middle ground" left between the RCs and the Orthodox. (The Orthodox are kind of the middle ground between the RCs and the Protestants on this one.) Hence I just cannot see how a unification on this matter could be handled without major unilateral damage.
This is not a direct parallel but there are some similar elements. In the case of independent Orthodox groups, we say with little reservation that they have no priesthood. Yet, when they are received into the Orthodox Church, whether individually or corporately, (by whatever means, which varies), the view of what went before often differs from one party to the next. Those receiving them consider them new priests while those being received see their priesthood of years simply being exercised in a different place. The done thing seems to be to focus on the present unity and see these differing views of the past as of little significance, for when the present generation is gone, it will have faded from living memory anyway.
Speaking theoretically, therefore, if the Orthodox were to adopt the RC position on marriage and union came about as a result, would those who had been Roman Catholics perhaps find it possible to extend some Orthodox-flavoured economy to those remarried couples who had been Orthodox? Once the present generation had passed, it would be a moot point, but the question is whether even the suggestion of this would cause the sort of shockwaves that you suggest would take place if a more lenient approach were to be taken.
quote:
There's an old joke along the lines of "Heaven is a place where the police are English; the chefs are Italian; the car mechanics are German; the lovers are French and it's all organized by the Swiss. Hell is a place where the police are German; the chefs are English; the car mechanics are French; the lovers are Swiss and it's all organized by the Italians."
I like this.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
Speaking theoretically, therefore, if the Orthodox were to adopt the RC position on marriage and union came about as a result, would those who had been Roman Catholics perhaps find it possible to extend some Orthodox-flavoured economy to those remarried couples who had been Orthodox? Once the present generation had passed, it would be a moot point, but the question is whether even the suggestion of this would cause the sort of shockwaves that you suggest would take place if a more lenient approach were to be taken.
Well. What we would need to suss out is a distinction within the state of "living unrepentantly in sin". If we can do this, I can imagine that the compromise solution would be that one can only marry once in Church, full stop (no ceremony there for "remarriages", which amounts to an official recognition of some kind, however subdued). But that those who "remarry" will not generally be refused communion, due to their unrepentantly remaining in what amounts formally to adultery, but rather be readmitted as Catholics in acceptable standing - perhaps after a period of penance.
The problem is - and perhaps here we see the difference between RCC and Orthodoxy - that the RCC cannot simply just allow this for the case of marriage. If such a distinction is made, it will coherently spread through all RC moral doctrine and practice. Probably very rapidly... Can for example an unrepentant abortion provider get communion? If not, then why not? The distinction concerning ongoing sin must be precise enough to avoid such "license creep". Nothing can be maintained in "splendid isolation" in RC doctrine and practice for long, "if this, then why not that" will be asked near instantly and very persistently.
We really need some very smart theologians on the job. Unfortunately, RCs are heading more for an era of fervour than thoughtfulness, I would say. I see a window of opportunity closing there rather soon. Within a few decades, the remaining intellectual fire power of the Western RCC will be very busy handling the charismatic and eclectic tendencies of the Southern and Eastern RCC.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
We really need some very smart theologians on the job. Unfortunately, RCs are heading more for an era of fervour than thoughtfulness, I would say.
Hmmm. What do you mean by this?
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
Hmmm. What do you mean by this?
What I said in the next but one sentence.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
Well said, Ingo ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
Posts: 733 | Registered: Apr 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
One's me slightly estranged Italian grannie, who'll let me in the house and be lovely and has some really lovely kids, my second cousins or first cousins once removed, but she has a houseful of stuff and won't let me take tea with her. The other's her Greek twin sister. Who has a more exotic cluttered house but who's disturbingly attractive because you can see the girl in her still and when she was young she had a truly beautiful mind which is still in there.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Are you saying then, IngoB, that the job of western Catholic theologians is to tame the southern and eastern ones? That sounds a bit patronising, particularly in a church that claims to be universal. Is it RC teaching that the Holy Spirit speaks through the Holy Father alone, or might He have given some of these other less 'sophisticated' Catholics something to say to the western ones?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Do Orthodox priests get away with murder like Roman Catholic ones ?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Do Orthodox priests get away with murder like Roman Catholic ones ?
Hmmmm, it never occured to me that my parish priest killed anybody but it might explain a few things. I should go check the church basement.
I think I see what IngoB is getting at in his last sentence. The demographic center of the Catholic Church has been moving south and east for a while now and the issues of the South and East are what's becoming important for a majority of Catholics and not so much the issues that get attention in Western Europe and North America. People like reporter John Allen have been pointing this out, and this is true for the rest of Christianity as well (see what's going on in the Anglican Communion, for example). The issues of the white, middle-class West are probably going to become less prominent in discussions within the Catholic Church as Catholics themselves realize this. Even in the U.S. they'll start receding a little because of the growing proportion of Latinos and Asians in the U.S. Church (Latinos now make up something like 40% of the Catholic Church in the U.S.).
I'm not as learned as IngoB but I don't see a "compromise solution" happening as the possibility he envisions for divorced and remarried couples. I don't see how you can square that circle, someone considered to be formally in a state of adultery and still allowed to communion.
Nor do I think we are headed towards an ere of fervour than thoughtfulness. If anything I think the coming years will require more creative thinking as the Church truly attempts to be catholic in it's approach to dealing with issues important to the South and East while keeping tabs on the North and West which for a time will still be the places where issues infecting, I mean affecting the rest of the world are born.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
Its really hard to imagine that if the Orthodox and RCs got to a position where they could contemplate a formal restoration of complete intercommunion then they would allow a comparitively minor matter of church government such as remarriage to stand in their way.
IngoB suggests that it would be a permanent block because if the RCs budged even a little on the absolute authority of the Pope and dropped its dogma-ratchet and admitted that it had got something wrong - even something like this that does not concern the central doctrines of Christianity - then no-one would believe what they said every again.
I think that's wrong for two reasons, one comparitively unimportant, the other convincing. the unimportant one is that if they changed their teaching on this they could no doubt find some form of words to make it look as if they hadn't but they really believed the same thing all along. That's happened before when the Vatican has changed its doctrines and it will happen again. (Not just Rome of course, all churches do it)
The convincing reason is that Rome will never be in a position to formally re-unite with the Eastern patriarchies until after they have already admitted that they have been wrong about some things. And the Orthodox (and also most Protestants) would never be in a position to contemplate joining in with Rome unless the absolute authority of the Pope has already been removed - because that claim to absolute authority is precisely the main block to re-unification.
Any Christian, Orthodox, Protestant, or anything else, who really thought that the Pope was the "perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful" who "has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered" - who can not only govern all churches anywhere in a political or organisational sense but can also define doctrine that must be believed by all Christians at peril of their immortal soul - any Christian who really believed that can just become a Roman Catholic anyway. And maybe they ought to.
So the ones who remain in the Orthodox churches (or any other churches) will mostly be ones who don't believe that. And they aren't going to want to reunite formally with Rome if that means putting themselves under that authority. So there could be no question of any formal unity as long as that claim to authority and control remains.
And of course once its gone, IngoB's scruples about changing even the least bit of papally-defined doctrine in case the whole house of cards falls apart becomes irrelevant.
Of course I'm not Orthodox, I'm a Protestant. I'd be quite happy to see full communion between our churches without any organisational or bureaucratic re-union that requires any church to put themselves under the authority of anyone. And I can imagine circumstances in which that might come about de facto if not de jure. Perhaps only marginally less likely than the disestablishment of the Church of England.
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
The demographic center of the Catholic Church has been moving south and east for a while now and the issues of the South and East are what's becoming important for a majority of Catholics and not so much the issues that get attention in Western Europe and North America. People like reporter John Allen have been pointing this out, and this is true for the rest of Christianity as well (see what's going on in the Anglican Communion, for example).
Yes, and its been happening for a while - going back as far as the Pentecostal revivals of about a century ago, and including the recent rise of charismatic-evangelicalism.
I know I've said it here before, but Anglicanism is the largest black-majority denomination in the world.
quote:
The issues of the white, middle-class West are probably going to become less prominent in discussions within the Catholic Church as Catholics themselves realize this. Even in the U.S. they'll start receding a little because of the growing proportion of Latinos and Asians in the U.S. Church (Latinos now make up something like 40% of the Catholic Church in the U.S.).
Yes, but those Latinos in the USA mostly are part of the "white, middle-class West" (for US rather than British usage of "middle class") and those Asians are already probably on average almost as prosperous as their Anglo neighbours, and quite likely better educated, so maybe there will be fewer changes than we might expect.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Yes, but those Latinos in the USA mostly are part of the "white, middle-class West" (for US rather than British usage of "middle class") and those Asians are already probably on average almost as prosperous as their Anglo neighbours, and quite likely better educated, so maybe there will be fewer changes than we might expect.
Don't be so sure. I'm not white, I'm not middle-class, and the issues concerning us Latinos Catholics still overlap a lot with those of our relatives in Latin America. It's one reason for the prominence of the Charismatic movement among Latinos, for example, or trouble the Church in this country has had in figuring out how to help Latinos. The main Asian groups are Filipinos, Vietnamese, and Koreans, and I'm not sure how widely the first two groups fit into stereotypes of Asian success in this country.
And I've lost my train of thought again, so I may come back to this paragraph later.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Catholicism is holding its own in the US because of immigrants, and they're by and large neither white nor middle class. The Christian churches that are white and middle class are shrinking.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I just wondered if Orthodox clergy would also fear for their pay rather than turn in a murderer Pancho ? Or 'lesser' criminal. Like a serial child molesting ... priest.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
And the Orthodox (and also most Protestants) would never be in a position to contemplate joining in with Rome unless the absolute authority of the Pope has already been removed - because that claim to absolute authority is precisely the main block to re-unification.
Any Christian, Orthodox, Protestant, or anything else, who really thought that the Pope was the "perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful" who "has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered" - who can not only govern all churches anywhere in a political or organisational sense but can also define doctrine that must be believed by all Christians at peril of their immortal soul - any Christian who really believed that can just become a Roman Catholic anyway. And maybe they ought to.
So the ones who remain in the Orthodox churches (or any other churches) will mostly be ones who don't believe that. And they aren't going to want to reunite formally with Rome if that means putting themselves under that authority. So there could be no question of any formal unity as long as that claim to authority and control remains.
I think "be ones who don't believe that" is too polite an understatement. I would go as far to suggest that most of the people who "don't believe it" actually regard this claim as a very serious error, a usurpation of the heavenly throne. I sometimes wonder whether many Catholics appreciate quite how presumptuous, in the Psalm 19 sense, the papal claim looks from outside the Roman obedience. It's almost as though, if it were true, humility would preclude anyone from claiming it.
There are a lot of impediments to church unification. Nevertheless, unless the traditional RC position on papal authority actually is true - and we are all either persuaded or not persuaded by this - it is probably the most far reaching of those impediments.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
But, IngoB, all the Catholic Church doesn't need to allow unrepentant sinners. All it has to do is recognize that marriages can, in fact, end, before the death of either spouse. Which you say is completely and utterly impossible. I do not understand why. It's not in any of the creeds. Has this been expressed as one of those dogmas the Pope makes which you say don't matter because he doesn't do it but once every couple hundred years?
Even our Lord, in the Gospel of St. Matthew, allows for the possibility of divorce and remarriage in cases of πορνεία. Whatever exactly that means, but at any rate it is an exception to the ironclad rule.
[ 16. June 2012, 22:40: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
I just wondered if Orthodox clergy would also fear for their pay rather than turn in a murderer Pancho ? Or 'lesser' criminal. Like a serial child molesting ... priest.
Ah, yes. Those old chestenuts. Funnily enough, this sort of thing popped up on another thread and was being discussed in the Styx. And now here you are, trying to drag this thread down another rabbit hole, rather than asking about differences in spirituality, theology, teaching and culture which I naively thought this thread was about.
For what it's worth, there have been scandals involving Eastern Orthodox bishops and monastics in this country. I hesitate to bring it up but it's only in quick reply to your comment so as to satisfy your curiosity and keep this thread from veering off course (no "junior hosting" implied on my part). I could also mention a story related to the TEC, merely to point out Catholics aren't alone in this sort of thing, or the scandal going on at Penn State, whether or not the accused is guilty but merely to point out churches in general aren't alone in this sort of thing and you're just as likely or more to encounter it in families and schools. Be careful of that funny uncle of yours.
I haven't trained my Spidey-sense to reach across the pond yet but I imagine if I were to train my superpowers correctly I (and frankly, I don't have the time to go digging up other people's dirty laundry) would find some questionable happenings in that green and pleasant land.
If you still haven't got your jollies out of your system snarking about stuff as if we weren't already keenly aware of it you can always start a new thread or revive an old one where that's being discussed. I'm sure there are still a few around in Purgatory.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
I did not realize that the charismatic movement was prominent in Latino Catholics?
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
No, it's prominent with Latinos. People who were generally born Catholic turn* into Charismatic Protestants, often Pentecostals.
A third of Guatemala's population are now Charismatic Protestants. For the Roman Catholic Church to lose such ground in Latin America is unprecedented.
The nearest equivalent would be Quebec's Quiet Revolution which emptied the ultramontane Roman Catholic Church** almost overnight in the 1960's.
*use whatever word you want here, they are all loaded.
** The Roman Catholic Church in Quebec has a history of being fervently ultramontane and extreme even by pre-Vatican II standards.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
But, IngoB, all the Catholic Church doesn't need to allow unrepentant sinners. All it has to do is recognize that marriages can, in fact, end, before the death of either spouse.
Sacramental marriages end with the death of (one of) the spouses only, and I feel confident in predicting that the RCC will not teach otherwise till the Second Coming.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Which you say is completely and utterly impossible. I do not understand why. It's not in any of the creeds.
Sorry? Does your Church hold nothing as dogma that isn't in the creeds? Apostolic succession? Real presence of Christ in the Eucharist? Etc. And what creed, actually? Do you think the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed is enough to establish the orthodox view of the Trinity? I wouldn't think so, with some evidence from Greece that you may well recall...
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Has this been expressed as one of those dogmas the Pope makes which you say don't matter because he doesn't do it but once every couple hundred years?
Nope. I'm not a historian of the Church, so I'm not going to defend the following, beyond providing the link. But it does look as if the Orthodox had divorce imposed on them by the emperor in the 6th century, with its first "canonical" acceptance in the 11th century. Catholics stuck with the original teaching, the pope explicitly resisted the emperor over this matter in the 7th century, and by the tenth century indissolubility was established even as civil law in all Catholic countries. From then on it remained unchallenged until the Protestant came along. And from that time I get my confidence that Catholic teaching will not substantially change, since the Council of Trent hammered down dogma with a series of anathemas. No going back from this, I reckon. And if the "RCC" were to go back from the Council of Trent, then I would certainly put my lot with whatever of the RCC remains true to that Council - for I consider it fully legitimate, and hence empowered to decide irrevocably matters of faith and morals.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Even our Lord, in the Gospel of St. Matthew, allows for the possibility of divorce and remarriage in cases of πορνεία. Whatever exactly that means, but at any rate it is an exception to the ironclad rule.
I'm afraid that you simply misunderstand scripture there. We have just had a long thread on the matter, and I do not (!) wish to repeat all that. To summarise my point of view: I consider the case against your interpretation conclusive from scripture and knowledge of Pharisaic teaching. As for what is right, I find John Piper's explanation very convincing. But my rejection of your interpretation does not depend on this.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Are you saying then, IngoB, that the job of western Catholic theologians is to tame the southern and eastern ones? That sounds a bit patronising, particularly in a church that claims to be universal.
Sorry, I don't do "political correct" Church-speak. The simple facts of the matter are that much of the explosive growth of the RCC in the South and East, particularly in Africa, is in the typical mode of sects, with heavy emphasis on spiritual warfare, enthusiastic prophecy, faith healing, etc. Hand-in-hand with the emphasis on conversion goes intolerance of competing faiths and morals and the ready adoption of whatever local habits push growth. It's "Die Hard" religion, tough, exciting, but also quite "dirty" and certainly lacking clarity and sophistication. The RCC is broad enough to host these growths, but if they are going to be new organs of faith, rather than tumours, they must be contained in a church governance sense and their new contributions to doctrine and liturgy must be integrated and streamlined with tradition. It will take centuries to work this out completely, but it is pretty damn clear that this work will need to be started by the dying remnants of Catholicism in the West. Likely at some point the East and South will reach the required level of organisation and sophistication to deal with this, but not yet. And I would expect that the torch will pass from Europe first to Latin America, rather than to Africa and Asia, in spite of the latter leading in growth.
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Is it RC teaching that the Holy Spirit speaks through the Holy Father alone, or might He have given some of these other less 'sophisticated' Catholics something to say to the western ones?
Without doubt the impact of Southern and Eastern "New Catholics" will change Catholicism massively. But Catholicism is organic in its development. And where there is a rupture, there Catholicism must grown over the break, closing it with particular strength, as the body does for a broken bone. As for the Holy Father, the next one will likely by a Latin American. And perhaps in my lifetime I will still see an African pope, I sure hope so! But the Catholic DNA must never be lost, and we will need the Europeans for a while yet to maintain the Body of Christ healthy and whole.
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
I'm not as learned as IngoB but I don't see a "compromise solution" happening as the possibility he envisions for divorced and remarried couples. I don't see how you can square that circle, someone considered to be formally in a state of adultery and still allowed to communion.
I don't see that either. If I did see how to make the necessary distinction, I would make it, or at least start making it. However, I can see that this is the only "attack line" that realistically exists, even though I do not know how to carry out the "attack" myself.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
For an interesting Catholic perspective on Orthodoxy and the consequences of a possible reunion between the Eastern and Western Churches, the excellent CTS pamphlet by Fr. Robin Gibbons, "The Eastern Churches", is probably the best short introduction.
Fr. Gibbons is an English Melkite priest and a member of the Dominicans.
Realistically, I think the prospect is not on any current timetable.
It was interesting to see earlier that Evensong seemed to have no understanding of what both Catholics and the Orthodox consider to be the key shaper of Church practice from earliest times: Holy Tradition. They would both say that, as the New Testament - the key Christian scripture - came after the time Christ was alive, its interpretation must be within that Tradition guaranteed by him guarded by the Church he founded.
The disagreement is about which Church possesses that Tradition in its fullness.
Certain incidentals, such as vestments, developed within the Tradition but are not a crucial part of it. The Eucharist/Mass/Liturgy is and both would say it has come down to us basically unchanged from Christ himself.
Both Churches would say that, despite the human weaknesses and frailties of human beings within the Church, the essential deposit of the Faith, as made by Christ himself and guarded by this Holy Tradition, has not altered. Certain practices, approved by the Church, may have developed over the centuries as the Church is living, not dead, but they must be in concord with Tradition (not traditions).
The Reformation view of the Church is quite different as is its view on the Bible.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
The Reformation view of the Church is quite different as is its view on the Bible.
Well yes, as unlikely as reunion between Rome and Constantinople is, it's far more likely than either a unified Protestant church or reunion between Protestants and the rest of Christianity.
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
The essential issue between Rome and us as Orthodox, Ken as correctly pointed out, is papal power and authority. We are not opposed to the primacy of Rome as it was practised before that disastrous pope Gregory VII (Hildebrand) ascended the throne of St. Peter but anything more than a primacy of love, respect and leadership (all of which are charismatic rather than juridical) is not going to wash with us at all ... EVER.
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
Right. We RC’s have got the Pope. But just for the record: This fact is hardly such an overridingly important aspect of faith for your average Thinking Roman Catholic™ that it would preclude him or her from harbouring a deep respect of, and longing for, aspects of Orthodox faith: Among them: less scholasticism, the Hesychast tradition, and apophatic theology.
On a personal note, the one book that got me back into Christianity’s fold in my late adolescence was Kallistos Ware’s “The Orthodox Way”.
On a general note, I fear that there's more sympathy among many RCs for the Orthodox than the other way round. Not all of us are ultramontanist ogres or neothomist nitpickers.
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
Posts: 733 | Registered: Apr 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Thanks Pancho, if a schismatic heretic can say that. Is that a G.K. Chestenut? I like him. Nobody has EVER said I'm wrong, that the extra-canonical accretion of the utter sancrosanctity of confession is not ringed by excommunication on Earth and therefore heaven for priests protecting criminals. I just wanted to know if that's the same in Orthodoxy. I know I should know better, as I want to be for the good and any friend of Henri Nouwen is a friend of mine, but I can never get over being regarded as a third class citizen, that the broken Roman Catholics I will be brokenly serving this evening will let me clean their shoes in heaven but still not take tea with them.
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Dear Desert Daughter ... ![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif) ... feel like planning a quiet revolution? We have awkward squads as well of course.
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
Anytime, Father Gregory... it would be an honour and a pleasure
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
The simple facts of the matter are that much of the explosive growth of the RCC in the South and East, particularly in Africa, is in the typical mode of sects, with heavy emphasis on spiritual warfare, enthusiastic prophecy, faith healing, etc. Hand-in-hand with the emphasis on conversion goes intolerance of competing faiths and morals and the ready adoption of whatever local habits push growth. It's "Die Hard" religion, tough, exciting, but also quite "dirty" and certainly lacking clarity and sophistication. The RCC is broad enough to host these growths, but if they are going to be new organs of faith, rather than tumours, they must be contained in a church governance sense and their new contributions to doctrine and liturgy must be integrated and streamlined with tradition. It will take centuries to work this out completely, but it is pretty damn clear that this work will need to be started by the dying remnants of Catholicism in the West. Likely at some point the East and South will reach the required level of organisation and sophistication to deal with this, but not yet. And I would expect that the torch will pass from Europe first to Latin America, rather than to Africa and Asia, in spite of the latter leading in growth.
That still sounds like a velvet-gloved version of the way northern and particularly western hemisphere piskies look down on the Nigerian and Ugandan bishops as uppity 'boys' who have the temerity not to do as their betters tell them on theological and ethical liberalisation/dilution.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
That still sounds like a velvet-gloved version of the way northern and particularly western hemisphere piskies look down on the Nigerian and Ugandan bishops as uppity 'boys' who have the temerity not to do as their betters tell them on theological and ethical liberalisation/dilution.
Piskies have neither a Vatican nor a magisterium. Sorry, it's just not comparable. This is not about power moving to to the South and East in some epic struggle about authority, this is about the South and East growing into the authority structures that exist and will remain, and making them theirs. Latin America is a young man starting to make his mark. Africa and Asia are still children. Little doubt that they will surpass their parents Europe and USA - and what else could parents ever want? I pray for that, let them shape Christianity as we have with what we had to offer. But it's not quite time yet for Europe and USA to finish parenting (or in the case of Latin America, to foot a bill or two...).
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
So there's nothing the Vatican or the Magisterium might gain or learn from these kiddies then, nothing the kiddies might be saying to them that could be worth their while listening to?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
This happens on several levels.
The "kiddie" analogy is deeply flawed, especially in the case of Asia. That part of the world is home to a great range of spiritual traditions and wisdom preceding Christianity and, frankly, they have a lot to teach us.
On the other hand, every corner of the world has its folk religion, and it would be sad to see Christianity turned into just that. Strong in numbers, but no longer in substance.
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
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Mary LA
Shipmate
# 17040
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Posted
from Ingob
Latin America is a young man starting to make his mark. Africa and Asia are still children. Little doubt that they will surpass their parents Europe and USA - and what else could parents ever want?
Really offensive and just plain wrong, no matter what metaphor you were trying to stretch about ecclesial maturity or where you think the church should be headed.
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“I often wonder if we were all characters in one of God's dreams.”
― Muriel Spark
Posts: 499 | From: Africa | Registered: Apr 2012
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
So there's nothing the Vatican or the Magisterium might gain or learn from these kiddies then, nothing the kiddies might be saying to them that could be worth their while listening to?
I have learned from my child since the day he was born. Nevertheless, there is an asymmetry there which comes from maturity and experience.
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
The "kiddie" analogy is deeply flawed, especially in the case of Asia. That part of the world is home to a great range of spiritual traditions and wisdom preceding Christianity and, frankly, they have a lot to teach us.
That's totally besides the point, of course. In the analogy, these religions would be other adults.
quote:
Originally posted by Mary LA :
Really offensive and just plain wrong, no matter what metaphor you were trying to stretch about ecclesial maturity or where you think the church should be headed.
I couldn't care less that you are offended. The "plain wrong" however you will have to argue, or I'll consider your comment to be plain rhetorical.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Mary LA
Shipmate
# 17040
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Posted
There's no point in arguing with someone who hasn't outgrown Catholic triumphalism. There are ways of talking about the church in Africa or Asia without resorting to paternalistic or xenophobic tropes.
You really don't care if you offend a poster here? You know, I get the defensiveness underlying the arrogance and weird grandiosity. Many Catholics feel beleaguered or attacked and even paranoid. But if we don't listen and talk to one another with respect, there is no way forward and you will alienate even those (like myself) who feel sympathetic to where you're coming from.
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“I often wonder if we were all characters in one of God's dreams.”
― Muriel Spark
Posts: 499 | From: Africa | Registered: Apr 2012
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I couldn't care less that you are offended.
If you are interested in constructive debate and understanding each other then you should care. These possibilities diminish the more offence that you give.
Given the legacy of colonialism the parent/child metaphor is particularly unfortunate. I'm sure it's possible to get your point across without that. And whatever metaphor you choose, describing examples of the immaturity of the growing church in Africa and the helpful support of Europe in dealing with it would be more persuasive.
I think you also need to take account of the fact that exercising such cross-cultural authority is fragile, prone to misunderstanding, and prone to building up resentment.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
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Fuzzipeg
Shipmate
# 10107
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Posted
Applause, Desert Daught, MaryLA and mdijon. The problem is that the extremist pedants tend to be the ones who feel that they represent the true RCC point of view where as it is far more disparate and nuanced than is generally represented on these boards.
When it comes to Africa, Asia and Latin America the tail is beginning to wag the dog despite efforts to the contrary. There is an increasing divide within the RCC between a hierarchy that is becoming increasingly conservative in it's approach and shrill in inverse proportion to those who accept its pronouncements unquestioningly and that means majority of the laity, those in consecrated life and the lower clergy. This is probably most noticeable in the USA at the moment. Something has to give in the long run and it's fascinating to watch.
Part of the problem was the long papacy of JPII who appointed bishops and cardinals who agreed with him; whether they were any good pastorally or not was just luck. Benedict XVI is as conservative but at least he has taken more interest in pastoral appointments despite their conservative opinions.
The hierarchy, because of a long conservative papacy, has become self-perpetuating and, in my opinion, increasingly out of touch with the people and situations at grass roots level. Fortunately there are more positives than negatives and I'm sure that the because the Church is a Divine Institution it will obviously survive despite these problems.
[ 18. June 2012, 13:50: Message edited by: Fuzzipeg ]
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http://foodybooze.blogspot.co.za
Posts: 929 | From: Johannesburg, South Africa | Registered: Aug 2005
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
Thank you, Fuzzypeg; at least this discussion shows that we RCs are a refreshingly mixed bag, a foolish dinghy of The Ship.
As to JP II, I agree, the appointments made over his long pontificate still shape what is happening today. But I've heard many times that this was such a "provocative" pope that he triggered discussion and **gasp** critical thought ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) amongst his flock.
Now let me tell you a joke (some of you already know it, my apologies):
The Holy Trinity wants to go on a vacation. They have to decide where to go. The Holy Spirit suggests they go to the desert.
- "Oh well,", says the Father, "I've trecked through that desert for forty years with the people of Israel, and believe me, it was no fun. That place means work for me, not a holiday. How about going to Jerusalem instead?"
-"No way!", says the Son, "last time I went there it ended very badly for me. I've got bad memories of that city. Let's go to Rome instead."
-"Great idea!", says the Holy Spirit, "I've never been to Rome!"
Posts: 733 | Registered: Apr 2008
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
There is nothing offensive about some of the language IngoB used. Condescending and patronizing? Maybe. Offensive, not really. It's the kind of language Catholics use all the time. Catholics call their church "Holy Mother Church". France is called "the Eldest Daughter of the Church". Such-and-such is a daughter church of such-and-such. So-and-so are sister churches. It's normal Catholic language.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274
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Posted
Have I missed it? But should there not be a discussion of Filioque somewhere in this discussion?
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Indeed but such is the state of Rome right now, the internal dialogue / conflict is more pressing. Not that the Ship is a representative slice of that of course ... necessarily ... on the other hand ... (IngoB thinks it a non-issue .... it may not be the most important issue but it's certainly not a non-issue!)
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274
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Posted
What intrigues me about Orthodoxy is the apparent absence of a missionary and evangelising impulse, at least in the modern era, whereas Roman Catholicism is clearly otherwise. Is this an accident of history, because presumably there was a period when Orthodoxy sought to extend its influence, or is there some doctrinal reason for the differences in this regard?
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
The conflict is more "pressing" indeed. I know theologians and/or Religious in both the Americas and in India. We talk a lot about what they indeed call "forces of pressure". The "rebellious" nuns from the West, the Upanishadic Christians (for want of a better term) from the East, both pressing on Rome on different, but important, if not crucial (no pun intended) matters ("they are complementary", I am told). I am no expert on Africa, but I am sure there's "pressure" from there, too.
The Magisterium? Move over! We need a simpler, more pastoral church. At the same time, we need a more intelligent church, a theology that stops using sophistry and pseudo-certitudes borrowed from half-baked enlightenment concepts.
The funny thing is that all this movement appears "centrifugal", ie going away from the centre. True if the "centre" is Rome. But I think it is really "centripetal" ( towards the centre), for the true centre of the Church (beyond admin) might be no longer be Rome.
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Both are knocked in to a cocked hat compared with Syriac Christianity surely ?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Desert Daughter: quote:
The Magisterium? Move over! We need a simpler, more pastoral church. At the same time, we need a more intelligent church, a theology that stops using sophistry and pseudo-certitudes borrowed from half-baked enlightenment concepts.
This is why I like so many Catholics in the pews and parishes. They can cut to the meat of what matters, while the hierarchy and theologians too often just keep doing micro-surgery on over-scarred tissue.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
This is why I like so many Catholics in the pews and parishes. They can cut to the meat of what matters, while the hierarchy and theologians too often just keep doing micro-surgery on over-scarred tissue. [/QB]
Indeed. And that is why I'm still happy in that "family".
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
Posts: 733 | Registered: Apr 2008
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Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274
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Posted
Father Gregory,
Thanks for your reply. I have no axe to grind, it's just that I'm very ignorant as to the spread of Orthodoxy, both historically and contemporary. How many Orthodox Christians are there in Africa?
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274
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Posted
Father Gregory,
Thanks for trying, but I found the index so incomprehensible that I never got to the point where I required a calculator. ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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