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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy
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Mary LA
Shipmate
# 17040
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Posted
Kwesi, I have no idea of numbers but I know the Coptic Orthodox Church belongs to the All Africa Conference of Churches and is said to be growing fastest in East Africa, following the initiatives of Bishop Antonius Markos. The Coptic Orthodox Church in Gugulethu near Cape Town is very well-attended (liturgy in isiXhosa and Zulu) and there is another Coptic Orthodox church in Soweto.
Alastair Kee has written several articles on the renewal of Orthodox Christianity in the diaspora (a journal called Studies in World Christianity). AFAIK, in South Africa most of the Orthodox immigration has been from Greece and Cyprus, with smaller groups of Russians, Serbs, Bulgarians, Lebanese and Romanians.
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“I often wonder if we were all characters in one of God's dreams.”
― Muriel Spark
Posts: 499 | From: Africa | Registered: Apr 2012
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
Mary the Coptic Orthodox are Oriental Orthodox: like the Armenians. It's interesting they're spreading in East Africa because they are definitely one Church that is Africa based.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
I just wondered if Orthodox clergy would also fear for their pay rather than turn in a murderer Pancho ? Or 'lesser' criminal. Like a serial child molesting ... priest.
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Thanks Pancho, if a schismatic heretic can say that. Is that a G.K. Chestenut? I like him. Nobody has EVER said I'm wrong, that the extra-canonical accretion of the utter sancrosanctity of confession is not ringed by excommunication on Earth and therefore heaven for priests protecting criminals. I just wanted to know if that's the same in Orthodoxy. I know I should know better, as I want to be for the good and any friend of Henri Nouwen is a friend of mine, but I can never get over being regarded as a third class citizen, that the broken Roman Catholics I will be brokenly serving this evening will let me clean their shoes in heaven but still not take tea with them.
Bless you Martin. You have a unique talent for obscurity!
Of course your point re confessional differences is relevant to this discussion. But do have a care over your provocative and sometimes Hellish openers. You are easily misread.
Confessional differences are indeed very much to the point of this thread. Consequences may be a bit more of an issue.
Have a care, Shipmate, to distinguish between the real issue and the overly-provocative opener.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Sir.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Mailbox is full, Martin. I've got a PM in waiting.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
Indeed but such is the state of Rome right now, the internal dialogue / conflict is more pressing.
Oh! The irony!!!
The last Joint International Commission for Theological Dialogue Between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church saw this happen:
quote:
At Ravenna, a dispute between the Churches of Constantinople and Moscow led to the withdrawal of the Moscow delegation from the Ravenna meeting. The occasion for the dispute was the presence of a delegation from the Estonian Orthodox Church, which is associated with the Patriarchate of Constantinople. There is a larger Orthodox Church in Estonia which is associated with the Patriarchate of Moscow. Before the Russian Revolution and after the end of World War II, the Orthodox Church in Estonia was fully within the jurisdiction of the Moscow Patriarchate. The acute dispute over Orthodoxy in Estonia emerged in the 1990s, when part of the Orthodox community in Estonia was accepted by Constantinople. For a relatively short time, the Patriarchate of Moscow stopped commemorating the Ecumenical Patriarch, signaling a temporary break in communion. What emerged eventually was a tacit peace, with two Orthodox Churches in Estonia existing in parallel. From the Moscow point of view, Constantinople’s invitation to one of the Churches in Estonia transgressed against the status quo.
The withdrawal of the Moscow Patriarchate from the Catholic-Orthodox meeting in Ravenna causes awkward complications for the Catholic-Orthodox theological dialogue process. On the one hand, the procedures of this dialogue have acknowledged that the absence of one or several Orthodox Churches does not stop the process or invalidate its results. On the other hand, the absence of the Moscow Patriarchate—the largest Orthodox Church, with many millions of adherents—puts into question the effectiveness and practical results of the Catholic-Orthodox dialogue.
Another dimension of the withdrawal of the Moscow Patriarchate from the Ravenna meeting—ironically—shows again that there are significant unresolved questions within the Orthodox Church. Even as the Catholic-Orthodox statement on “Ecclesial Communion, Conciliarity and Authority” was being composed at Ravenna, the dispute between Constantinople and Moscow demonstrated that the balance between conciliarity and primacy articulated in the Orthodox teaching on the nature of the Church is not easily found in practice.
That's from the OCA Report on the issue.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
I just wondered if Orthodox clergy would also fear for their pay rather than turn in a murderer Pancho ? Or 'lesser' criminal. Like a serial child molesting ... priest.
I find this very objectionable. The absolute confidentiality of confession is nothing to do with pay (for neither RC nor OC) - and the implication that Orthodoxy has anything to do with child molesting (with no evidence whatsoever) is nothing short of slander!
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
Has it not occured to anyone that a priest, after hearing a most grievous confession, might deny absolution until the confessor has done the right thing (like go to the Police and admit his offences?)
This way, absolute confidentiality is still upheld (as it should be). Would you go to a priest, when the confidentiality of the confession was a matter for his personal discretion?
[ 19. June 2012, 20:06: Message edited by: Mark Betts ]
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
I fear this thread, potentially of great interest, especially to Catholics and Orthodox, is becoming lost in the mire of historical ill will and irrelevance.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
I fear this thread, potentially of great interest, especially to Catholics and Orthodox, is becoming lost in the mire of historical ill will and irrelevance.
To be honest it held out longer than I had expected.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
So let's shove it positively in a different direction.
What do the Orthodox to receive and learn from Rome?
(1) That the Church is not to be confused with or subordinated to local cultures, nationalisms and the like.
(2) That a universal primacy can be to the Church's good.
(3) That being efficient, clear and organised is not "of the devil."
In a spirit of genuine irenic goodwill it is not for me to say what they need to receive from us. However, I am not going to get all "hissy" if they point out our frailities .... nor in my experience do RC's here get all hissy when we talk about theirs.
Stop being so b****y English!
[ 20. June 2012, 09:38: Message edited by: Father Gregory ]
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
Stop being so b****y English!
Indeed, that's the Anglican USP.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mary LA:
There's no point in arguing with someone who hasn't outgrown Catholic triumphalism. There are ways of talking about the church in Africa or Asia without resorting to paternalistic or xenophobic tropes.
So you have no arguments worth airing, therefore you decide to try an ad hominem. Surprise, surprise....
quote:
Originally posted by Mary LA:
You really don't care if you offend a poster here? You know, I get the defensiveness underlying the arrogance and weird grandiosity.
Hmm? I'm simply here to speak my mind, and I've done this for many years now. If that offends you, I don't particularly give a shit. As long as I stay within the rules of this place, which I try to do. That is my unrest. Yours may be contemplating whether you should put honey in your cup of tea. Do I deny you the thrill of that? Of course not.
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
If you are interested in constructive debate and understanding each other then you should care. These possibilities diminish the more offence that you give.
In my consistent experience, people who freak out at my frankness have nothing to say that would interest me.
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Given the legacy of colonialism the parent/child metaphor is particularly unfortunate. I'm sure it's possible to get your point across without that.
In my opinion, colonialism was a great boon for the colonies at the level of culture and religion, and a nightmare at the level of politics and economy. I'm entirely unapologetic about bringing them Christianity, which is the only true religion, and hopefully will replace absolutely every other religion, spirituality and philosophy of life on the planet (while absorbing of them what is true and useful). And as for culture, our knowledge production system, our educational system, our ideas about law etc. were and still remain the envy of the world. That we ineptly forced artificial nation states on them, and sucked them dry of their natural and human resources - and try our best to continue to do so - is of course also true.
In many ways the colonies, and by now practically the entire contemporary world, are children of the West. Children grow up, parents grow old. Instead of fighting a metaphor that is so obviously true, people should simply follow it to its logical conclusion. In fact, of course Christianity is not European, certainly not Northern European, but Middle Eastern. We were children in the faith once. It took many centuries for us to grow up in it. But now we are the adults in the faith. To pretend that we are not is actually to shrug off our obvious responsibilities.
quote:
Originally posted by Fuzzipeg:
The problem is that the extremist pedants tend to be the ones who feel that they represent the true RCC point of view where as it is far more disparate and nuanced than is generally represented on these boards.
Nice, more insults... Whenever I claim to speak for the RCC, you will find plenty of quotes from official documents. If you feel that your point of view not represented enough, then there is a simple way of changing that: represent it.
quote:
Originally posted by Fuzzipeg:
There is an increasing divide within the RCC between a hierarchy that is becoming increasingly conservative in it's approach and shrill in inverse proportion to those who accept its pronouncements unquestioningly and that means majority of the laity, those in consecrated life and the lower clergy. ... Something has to give in the long run and it's fascinating to watch.
Naw, nothing will give there at all. That would require some backbone somewhere. For all his heresy and schism, dear old Luther had some good German stubbornness in him "Here I stand, I can do no other." That's just about the last thing you will hear from either side in this. They will all go on with their "constructive debate and understanding each other", to quote mdijon, right until Christ returns. But that's OK, unintentionally all this chicken-shit weaseldom ends up doing the Lord's work, as per Matthew 13:24-30.
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
Thank you, Fuzzypeg; at least this discussion shows that we RCs are a refreshingly mixed bag, a foolish dinghy of The Ship.
Indeed.
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
(IngoB thinks it a non-issue .... it may not be the most important issue but it's certainly not a non-issue!)
Theologically, it is a non-issue. The compromise with which everybody can live is obvious, and backed by the Church Fathers ("and" = "and through" = "through"). The compromise on the Creed is also obvious (simply recognize the status quo as valid variability, as per the theological insight), and could be confirmed dogma by mutual agreement even without calling a council (because one would simply recognize different expression as all meaning what has always been taught). All that would be required here is to turn the argumentative and ecclesiastic intent from "against each other" to "towards each other". That's the issue.
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
In a spirit of genuine irenic goodwill it is not for me to say what they need to receive from us.
Splendid liturgy. Some of the spirituality (though you very much can keep the yogic hesychasts, as far as I am concerned). Icons. Palamite theology as an irritant to grow another pearl of Trinitarian theology around. But most importantly - people, communities, churches. Ecclesiastic disunity is not really an option for Catholics, that's Protestant thinking. We don't need to receive from you, we need to receive you. And vice versa.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Has it not occured to anyone that a priest, after hearing a most grievous confession, might deny absolution until the confessor has done the right thing (like go to the Police and admit his offences?)
This way, absolute confidentiality is still upheld (as it should be). Would you go to a priest, when the confidentiality of the confession was a matter for his personal discretion?
Does this happen? Interested to know.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Has it not occured to anyone that a priest, after hearing a most grievous confession, might deny absolution until the confessor has done the right thing (like go to the Police and admit his offences?)
This way, absolute confidentiality is still upheld (as it should be). Would you go to a priest, when the confidentiality of the confession was a matter for his personal discretion?
Does this happen? Interested to know.
The nature of Confession is such that what is disclosed, any penances given, and the conditions under which a true confession with amendment of life is deemed to have been made, and thus absolution granted, is such that nobody outside of the confessor and penitent would know about it.
All of which is to say that I suspect that your question would only be answered if somebody were to reveal publicly (or at least in a PM) the circumstances of one of his confessions.
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
I just wondered if Orthodox clergy would also fear for their pay rather than turn in a murderer Pancho ? Or 'lesser' criminal. Like a serial child molesting ... priest.
I find this very objectionable. The absolute confidentiality of confession is nothing to do with pay (for neither RC nor OC) - and the implication that Orthodoxy has anything to do with child molesting (with no evidence whatsoever) is nothing short of slander!
Orthodoxy the faith and way of life? No. But Orthodoxy as in those within the Orthodox? Yes, we've had our share of unfortunate incidents. To our credit, in the public cases of which I have known, the church authorities have handled things reasonably responsibly but that doesn't mean that the incidents didn't take place.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
In my consistent experience, people who freak out at my frankness have nothing to say that would interest me.
You wouldn't accept a certain circularity in that assessment? We all have our sensitive spots and I doubt it invalidates everything we might have said on the topic, but it may well degrade what we actually do end up saying when pushed.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
In my opinion, colonialism was a great boon for the colonies at the level of culture and religion, and a nightmare at the level of politics and economy. I'm entirely unapologetic about bringing them Christianity
Interestingly many East Africans I know would be equally positive about the gift of Christianity (although now in flavours that you might not be so keen on) and similarly snooty about the impact on politics and economy. However I don't detect much appreciation for the imported European culture in general.
But none of this changes the point that the adult/child metaphor was part of the justification for the sucking dry of resources that you rightly disapprove of, and therefore most unfortunate.
There is also much in the Beatitudes other Christian ideals that an African Christian might reasonably claim to have a head-start over a European in.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
I fear this thread, potentially of great interest, especially to Catholics and Orthodox, is becoming lost in the mire of historical ill will and irrelevance.
To be honest it held out longer than I had expected.
I think Father Gregory attempted to revive it in a positive way.
As someone who has always been a Western Christian
what do I think Orthodoxy has to offer us?
I think the feeling of deep spirituality as seen in the whole Orthodox Tradition but especially in the Hesychast tradition with the Jesus Prayer and the tradition of genuine spiritual direction as seen in the continuity of Elders coming out of Mt Athos; the monasteries of Romania and Russia (the latter two even under Communism) such as Elder Paisios; Father Cleopa Ilie; St John of Shanghai and Fr. Arseny.
Recent Western Christianity has, indeed, had some remarkably saintly men and women, such as the late and sadly downplayed Michel Quoist but they have tended to live in isolation, or to become, quite against their will, "spiritual celebrities" like Padre Pio, rather than Spiritual Fathers in the Orthodox Tradition who engender further Spiritual Fathers in a continuing tradition.
I think this tradition of engendering saintliness in everyday life (as seen in the West in someone like Brother Laurence) is something the Orthodox can show us.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
@Michael Astley
Not at all, just requires someone to say 'yes, I know this happens'.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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Mary LA
Shipmate
# 17040
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Posted
IngoB: honey in my tea it is then. mdijon put it better than I could.
And the posts by Desert Daughter and Fuzzipeg reminded me why I keep wanting to return to the RCC, despite the self-appointed Defenders of the Faith.
I did a course on ecumenism about 20 years ago and seem to recall that the Orthodox Church was among the founders of the World Council of Churches in 1948? Surprising to me then but impressive Orthodox arguments for unity however elusive and impractical it might be.
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“I often wonder if we were all characters in one of God's dreams.”
― Muriel Spark
Posts: 499 | From: Africa | Registered: Apr 2012
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
Not at all, just requires someone to say 'yes, I know this happens'.
I have a first hand account from a Catholic who had been a serial petty thief (and serial insincere confessor of said petty thefts) of having been ejected from his confession with express instructions to confess his latest petty theft to the victim, repay the money, and then to return to receive his absolution.
I don't know how typical this is, but if it can happen for petty theft I'm sure it can happen for more serious crime.
The individual concerned is now cured of his penchant for petty theft.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB
We were children in the faith once. It took many centuries for us to grow up in it. But now we are the adults in the faith.
Gracious. You'll be saying 'mankind has come of age', next.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
Right, please allow me to be slightly flippant:
grown up? While so frequently displaying behaviour that strongly resembles two quite different age groups
- teenagers (take themselves very seriously and feel misunderstood by the rest of the world),
- old f@rts (closed upon themselves and hankering for the certitudes of a well-ordered nursing home, complete with bossy staff).
None of it very grown up. And I won't start discussing signs of a male mid-life crists (this spawned Opus Dei ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif) )
--- flippancy ends here ---
[ 20. June 2012, 13:08: Message edited by: Desert Daughter ]
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
Posts: 733 | Registered: Apr 2008
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
You wouldn't accept a certain circularity in that assessment?
Nope. I do not consider in this only their output after their buttons have been pressed.
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
However I don't detect much appreciation for the imported European culture in general.
Argumentum ad Monty Python. People tend to forget that there is nothing obvious about having say a university or a court of law with independent judges. Neither has it always been obvious that one protests against a current dictatorship with the aim of achieving democracy. Etc. A lot of things are "obvious" to the world now merely by virtue of us having them or doing them.
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
But none of this changes the point that the adult/child metaphor was part of the justification for the sucking dry of resources that you rightly disapprove of, and therefore most unfortunate.
Really? I would have thought that this metaphor would be more (ab)used to deny self-governance etc. "Because you are to us like children, we will take away all your stuff," doesn't work for me as an argument. What parents let their children die of hunger?
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
There is also much in the Beatitudes other Christian ideals that an African Christian might reasonably claim to have a head-start over a European in.
For sure, I think in some ways "early Christianity" is happening there right before their eyes. However, the truth also is that this is not really "early Christianity" any longer. For many, many things, Christianity can say "been there, done that". So our new "early Christians" will get from the apostolic successors a much more detailed picture of good, bad and ugly than the actual early Christians from the apostles. One may like this or not, that is just naturally the case.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
So here we are evaluating colonialism and metaphors for the relationship between the African and European church on a thread about Catholicism cf Orthodoxy. We should perhaps consider a breakout if you have energy to pursue it.
While considering that, let me point out that it isn't quite as Pythonesque as that. The law courts and other pilars of civil society were instruments to sustain colonial rule in many cases, and turned out to be very fragile in the early days of independence, and haven't been robustly instituted since in some countries. Hence "besides the corrupt judiciary supporting the current quasi-dictatorial rule" isn't such a troublesome line for the Judean People's front.
And I agree with your logic regarding the parent/child metaphor - it was indeed an argument for denying self-rule, but also for confiscating various resources. "Abusive parent" would indeed be an appropriate description in my view.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
In my opinion, colonialism was a great boon for the colonies at the level of culture and religion, and a nightmare at the level of politics and economy. I'm entirely unapologetic about bringing them Christianity
Interestingly many East Africans I know would be equally positive about the gift of Christianity...
Evangelism doesn't, and didn't, require colonialism though. In most of East Africa the first missionaries preceded the conquerors - in Kenya by fifty years. In much of inland West Africa the first mass conversions preceded European imperialist invasions (though there were many colonial settlements on the coast)
You could make an argument that colonialism hinders evangelism. Or is at least unconnected with it. Look at the big Asian countries - there is a a higher proportion of Christians in China (which we interfered with greately but never conquered) than in India, which we ran for over a hundred and fifty years. Of the large East Asian countries South Korea is the one with the largest proportion of self-identified Christians, yet it was never colonised.
But anyway the idea that Africans are religiously in some sense like children compared with Europeans is not only offensive but quite baseless - IngoB's usual scientific objectivity seems to have been left on the laboratory bench on this one.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
But anyway the idea that Africans are religiously in some sense like children compared with Europeans is not only offensive but quite baseless - IngoB's usual scientific objectivity seems to have been left on the laboratory bench on this one.
I'm sure I'll hear some actual counter-arguments soon. I've mentioned the typical signs of their youthfulness above already, to quote myself: "The simple facts of the matter are that much of the explosive growth of the RCC in the South and East, particularly in Africa, is in the typical mode of sects, with heavy emphasis on spiritual warfare, enthusiastic prophecy, faith healing, etc. Hand-in-hand with the emphasis on conversion goes intolerance of competing faiths and morals and the ready adoption of whatever local habits push growth. It's "Die Hard" religion, tough, exciting, but also quite "dirty" and certainly lacking clarity and sophistication."
And by the way, to neatly separate "political / military" colonialism from missionary activity is in my mind an anachronism, to say the least. It probably is not even true today, but it sure wasn't true back then. To quote (probably) Desmond Tutu: "When the missionaries came to Africa, they had the Bible and we had the land. They said "let us close our eyes and pray." When we opened them, we had the Bible, and they had the land."
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Mark Betts in particular. And all my Orthodox - Great Aunt - and Roman - Grandma - brethren, who have to deny me brotherhood (which makes me a spiritual bastard at best), in general. I'm sorry. Even though I am truly appalled, outraged at your non-oecumenical, extra-canonical, mandatory distinctives that don't just exclude me, like the sacrosanctity of confession, which both traditions appear to share in common, I AM sorry.
I'm utterly bemused by Western Thomist reasoning that gives us the Immaculate Conception and Assumption ( Orthodox Dormition ) and other mandatory narratives - dogmata, the etymology of which is so ironic - on the transfiguration, transubstantiation: on the mysteries.
How does Orthodoxy differ from Romanism on these ?
Believe it or not I would argue fully for your right to these exclusive, excluding, esoteric distinctives.
Some of which have only recently dawned on me, in my invincible ignorance, like the sacrosanctity of the confession.
I do NOT want to distance myself from you, from forever extending the hand of brotherhood, of fellowship, of being in this together, regardless that you CANNOT reciprocate and be true to your traditions.
As for horrors like paedophile ministry - 2 Corinthians 11:29 Who is weak, and I do not feel weak? Who is led into sin, and I do not inwardly burn?
That this is apparently a lesser reality for Orthodoxy is good news and a difference to note.
Martin
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Fuzzipeg
Shipmate
# 10107
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Posted
to get back to the Copts in Africa and Bp Antonius Markos. After reinforcing the Coptic Orthodox Church in East Africa he came to South Africa to find a "continuing" Coptic congregation in KZN, the result of a brief Coptic visit by priests just after the 2nd World War which gave him a basis to work on there.
The congregation in Johannesburg is predominantly Egyptian and the cathedral is situated here though there is much fraternal contact with the Ethiopian Orthodox Congregations and also an Indian congregation.
Initially the Copts attempted to evangelise existing African Independent Churches but with mixed success as often they were seen as a source of money and trips to Egypt! Subsequently they have been much more cautious and have managed to establish a monastery in the near Cullinan. It is early days yet but Marcos felt that with the powerhouse of the monastic life spiritual benefits would flow...and I am sure he is right.
The Copts ecumenical relationships with what they refer to as the Apostolic Churches are excellent, even with the Greeks & Russians which might not be the case in Europe! Where Rome is concerned the late Coptic Pope Shenoudah III signed an accord with Paul VI concerning agreement on Christology thus removing the slander of Monophysitism that has hung over them since 451.
They have good sales pitch...We are the ancient church of Africa. we have always been persecuted, except for a brief 200 year period and we have been at the receiving end of colonialism...never part of it.
[ 20. June 2012, 18:55: Message edited by: Fuzzipeg ]
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http://foodybooze.blogspot.co.za
Posts: 929 | From: Johannesburg, South Africa | Registered: Aug 2005
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
So here we are evaluating colonialism and metaphors for the relationship between the African and European church on a thread about Catholicism cf Orthodoxy. We should perhaps consider a breakout if you have energy to pursue it.
It always makes me a little crazy when IngoB says things like this:
quote:
Instead of fighting a metaphor that is so obviously true, people should simply follow it to its logical conclusion.
Metaphors aren't true! Not in the sense you mean, at any rate. They are frequently good illustrations of your point, but they always break down. Metaphors are in fact a very bad way to make an argument because of the many dissimilarities between tenor and vehicle -- because their logic breaks down, they're great poetry, but terrible argument. You do better with analogical arguments, another favorite of yours, but still frequently fail to see where your analogies break down.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
Dear Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard
Even though I am truly appalled, outraged at your non-oecumenical, extra-canonical, mandatory distinctives that stands against the Faith of the Church as believed in the first Millennium by all Christians;
Even though your Orthodox - Great Aunt - and Roman - Grandma - brethren, extend to you the open door of communion and fellowship with that family of faith which reaches back to the first millennium, whereas you choose to place yourself outside that fellowship thereby denying yourself brotherhood (which makes you a spiritual bastard at best), in general.
I'm utterly bemused by your idea that ancient beliefs are Western Thomist reasoning that gives us the Immaculate Conception and Assumption ( Orthodox Dormition ) and other mandatory narratives - dogmata, the etymology of which is so ironic - on the transfiguration, transubstantiation: on the mysteries.
Believe it or not I would argue fully for your right to hold contrary views, which are not the ancient beliefs of the Church but only recent, post 16th century, exclusive, excluding, esoteric distinctives.
Some of those ancient practises have only recently dawned on you, in your invincible ignorance, like the sacrosanctity of the confession, and yet you scorn them as if they were something new-fangled, whereas it's just your awareness of them which is new.
We do NOT want to distance ourselves from you, from forever extending the hand of brotherhood, of fellowship, of being in this together, regardless that you CANNOT reciprocate and be true to your new traditions which reject the ancient traditions.
As for horrors like paedophile ministry - 2 Corinthians 11:29 Who is weak, and I do not feel weak? Who is led into sin, and I do not inwardly burn? Because I sure as hell do not know what "pedophile ministry" is, but it sounds utterly revolting.
That this is apparently a lesser reality for Orthodoxy is good news and a difference to note. I wonder what it would look like if the Orthodox were subject to a little scrutiny and examination. It may be that there is no child abuse in the Orthodox Church, for which I would be most full of praise to Almighty God and filled with admiration for the obvious sanctity of the Orthodox clergy, compared with those vile Westerners. It MAY be.......
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Excellent rhetoric. Full marks TT.
How do I stand against Christ ? His body ? By what mandatory, exclusive, excluding distinctives ?
How does my utterly invincible incapability of integrating extra-canonical dogma exclude you ? Deny you Christ ? Deny your inclusion in Christ ? Make you a second class citizen in the Kingdom ?
I submit to your dogmatism without the slightest comprehension, I fully accept you with it: I have none by comparison.
Again, well done and for making my point: you COMPLETELY reject me as your brother as you must.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
I do NOT want to distance myself from you, from forever extending the hand of brotherhood, of fellowship, of being in this together, regardless that you CANNOT reciprocate and be true to your traditions.
You are so incredibly full of grace, I expect you will become miraculously pregnant next.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
![[Biased]](wink.gif) no more than you IngoB, my sins are ever before you.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Dear TT
quote:
That this is apparently a lesser reality for Orthodoxy is good news and a difference to note. I wonder what it would look like if the Orthodox were subject to a little scrutiny and examination. It may be that there is no child abuse in the Orthodox Church, for which I would be most full of praise to Almighty God and filled with admiration for the obvious sanctity of the Orthodox clergy, compared with those vile Westerners. It MAY be.......
Not hiding anything. We only have 150 or so parishes in this country and the Child Protection protocols are pretty tight across the board. Eternal vigilance and all that though ....
In the US though there have been problems. Comparisons are odious .... statistical or otherwise. A chronicle of shame is kept here ...
Orthodox clerical abuse in North America
No church is immune ... not even those nice Protestant ones where ALL the clergy can have (legitimate) sex.
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
Reverend gentlemen, please, can we get away from the "who has more paedophiles" theme? ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
Both Catholicism and Orthodoxy are about so much more.
BTW, for an Australian Catholic magazine (run by the Jesuits, of course) which does not shy away from difficult topics: http://www.eurekastreet.com.au/?gclid=CJOf3f_s3rACFaVKpgodpWxF1g
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
In fairness, Martin, whilst (as a Protestant) I can understand your outburst, I don't think that the RC posters here are denying that you are their brother in Christ.
I've always found that I've been treated as a fellow-believer (as well as a human being) by both RC and Orthodox clergy even though they might not consider my own ecclesial affiliation to as much 'church' as their own Church is ... if that makes sense.
None that I've met have ever suggested that I mightn't be a Christian or that my eternal destination is in jeopardy because I don't happen to belong to their Church. Although they would like me to cross either the Tiber or Bosphorus should I wish to do so, of course.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
Dear Father Gregory
Thank you for that. I hope you understand that I was not trying to impute or imply anything concerning the Orthodox Church, but was rather responding to Martin's silliness.
Given that, I am nevertheless doffing my hat to you for your readiness to post that link and make the point you did.
The sexual abuse of children is a great evil. Unfortunately, the magnifying glass placed on the Catholic Church, and especially the Catholic Church's mismanagement of the matter, has caused it to be considered a "Catholic issue". That myth needs to be blasted right out of the water or children will continue to be abused and the perpetrators will continue to evade justice.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I spose I should apologize for going off thread. Which I duly do. Much as I'd like to retort to you TT. I must forgo that guilty pleasure.
Back to the thread, surely the first and greatest difference is Augustine ?
"Augustine of Hippo is the fount of every distortion and alteration in the Church's truth in the West" Christos Yannaras
"Lord deliver us from the Augustinian dialectic". Saint Gennadius Scholarius
Doesn't all else - actus purus and theoria - follow from this ?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
No church father is immune from error Martin. Calvin took some of Augustine's worst errors and built a whole monstrous edifice out of them. Some Orthodox (not knowing Augustine properly) indulge in Gussy-baiting. Actually Augustine was a very fine Orthodox Catholic theologian ... but he had his blind spots .... as did all the rest. (For the west's modification of Augustine on predestination, see the Second Council of Orange in 529).
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
"Monstrous edifice?" How much Calvin have you actually read, Fr.Gregory?
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Quite a lot actually. (Remember I had a thoroughly western theological education).
[ 21. June 2012, 14:26: Message edited by: Father Gregory ]
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Calvin's the big villain of the Protestant piece as far as the Orthodox are concerned, Zach82, in case you hadn't noticed ...
Forgive me if I'm teaching you to suck eggs.
An Orthodox priest once told me that Calvin was the 'last of the medieval Scholastics' and I suspect he was right.
I've come across some Orthodox (Tell it not in Gath, or rather, tell it not on Athos) who would concede that Calvin rings true on certain points, but for the most part they see him as epitomising the cold, calculating, Latin mindset to the nth degree - with views that led to double-predestination and all the shenanigans of Dort etc .
I don't know enough about it, but I'm generally inclined to be charitable. What little I know about Calvin convinces me that he wasn't as Calvinist as those who came after ... but I s'pose there was a continuum them - going back to Aquinas, Anselm and Augustine.
We're all under the shadow of it to some extent, even Arminians, who, as Jengie Jon has identified are simply another form of Reformed Christian in that they're reacting against Calvin from within a broadly Calvinist paradigm.
That's also why so many of Charles Wesley's hymns are also popular with Calvinists - because he wrote at his best when ending up writing like a Calvinist when trying to be an Arminian ...
Both are part of the same mindset.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Ah, Fr.Gregory has merely transposed the usual case of "Orthodox Westophobia" from Augustine to Calvin.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Could it not also be that he finds some of what Calvin says to be objectionable on theological grounds? Or is it all just "Westophobia"?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
He's not wrong there. It's a continuum. Calvin is the apotheosis of Augustine on wooden predestinarianism. Modernism took it to its heart where it still is.
I'm not surprised to hear you sing Augustine's Orthodox Catholic praises Father Gregory, as both sides of the Drina are united in knowing that God knows it's going to rain tomorrow and that's what makes predestinarianism inevitable.
So its hypocritical for faiths that believe that God is somehow 'outside' time, that every tick of Ptolemy's eternal future clock is tocked, to call Calvin heretic.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Could it not also be that he finds some of what Calvin says to be objectionable on theological grounds? Or is it all just "Westophobia"?
Which option does "monstrous edifice" fit under better?
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
One of the things I find most attractive about Orthodoxy is the way that the whole Calvinism/Arminian thing is an irrelevance to them.
One of the things I find least attractive about it is its 'Westophobia' but I'm prepared to give both Fr Gregory and Mousethief the benefit of the doubt on this one in terms of listening to what they find most 'monstrous' about Calvinism. Double-predestination, I suspect, the idea that God is some kind of Molech ...
But then, most small r reformed people have long since given up on that one and even at the Big R end of things it isn't always put in such clear-cut or wooden terms.
There are Calvinist universalists around too.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Dort won't go away. When Calvinism resorts to universalism it's still based on the unopposable inexorable will of God. It's determinism-phobia not western-phobia. There's nothing Greek about me.
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Do you believe God creates people He knows will be damned?
[ 21. June 2012, 18:28: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Which is rather different to creating them in order for them to be damned ... or willing them to be damned ...
I know this question is aimed at Fr Gregory, not me, though.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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