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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Ghosts
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trin:
If 5% of people had had credible experience of the supernatural, such phenomena would now be well documented fact.
A number of people here have reported personal unexpected experiences, aren't those reports a documentation of some sort?
In many countries the spirits are assumed part of reality -- a friend in Asia would not allow use of the Chinese version of ouija board in her house because she said sometimes after you put the board away the spirits don't leave, they stay in the house. Highly educated and successful business owner.
But in the West if you say something like that in public you get labeled "crazy" which can hurt your business or career, so of course people don't say too publicly that they had an encounter with something not of this physical world.
And if you take a photo, or play a recording of the spirit talking, your documentation will be discounted as fraud. (There's plenty on the web, some probably fraud, some -- ?).
If the spirit world does not operate by our material rules, nor obey us unless we ask something they want to do anyway, no "repeatable measurable" test is possible, but that only proves they aren't rocks, they are creatures of their own wills and interests and not manipulated by our agendas.
So, what kind of documentation are you thinking should exist?
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
I think it's not just be good science, but good theology to say that there is just one world, and that there isn't another world alongside it, no spirit dimension, no supernatural realm. Everything that happens, that is real, happens in this one world.
It's not a purely material world. There are ideas, culture, language and more and these things have an effect on each other. A message from one person to another can have a physical effect. A joke told out there may make my keyboard wet with coffee.
Ghosts, though, inhabit an in-between world. They are supposed to have direct physical effects - temperature drop, say. People believe they are actual entities and try to investigate them, buying equipment and dedicating many years to try and film them or detect them electronically.
There are never any definite positive results to convince an open-minded sceptic, but often some ambiguous, vague shadowy shape or possible recording, or maybe it was a bit of interference or a trick of the light. Meanwhile millions of security cameras record hundreds of thousands of locations around the world and pick up nothing.
But still people believe in ghosts, and still report experiences of the paranormal.
It could be that the paranormal exists but deliberately stays out of clear view. That gives you a seriously weird world to live in, a Trueman show version of reality.
It could be that the whole paranormal including ghosts is better understood as a human and cultural phenomenon. That is, that some people will sometimes see things, and that what they see will depend on where they live, what ideas they've grown up with, what stories they heard as a child, and what they expect. We would expect that the experiences people report will be shaped by their culture. They will be experiencing a cultural phenomenon, but as if it were an external event.
If that's the case, then we would expect ghosts to be different in China from Mexico, in Ancient Egypt from modern Russia, and so on. There would be similarities, of course, because there is much that is common to being human in any time and place, but much that is specific to a time and place, and clearly reflects the culture there, and not any underlying natural reality.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trin:
Well.. the SOF forums, I believe, play host to something like 300 active members at any one time. Of those who've seen this thread 17 have responded with stories - a total of 13 first hand experiences and 14 second hand.
Just taking the eyewitnesses 13/300 = 4.3%
You'd think ghosts would be a widely acknowledged fact of life.
17 people have responded to this thread but as with any thread on this forum, there are many more people who read than post, who may be perfectly capable of contributing relevant experiences but haven't.
I'm fairly open about my own belief in the paranormal. Over the years I've heard many stories from people who have had strange, anomalous experiences they can't explain rationally. I'd place the number of people who are open to the possibility of the existence of the paranormal at far higher than 4.3%. Definitely in double figures. There will be people reading this thread now who don't want to post, but recognize similar experiences posted here to their own.
Reasons for not admitting to this publicly are usually fear of ridicule, or censure, or not wanting to admit that what they experienced is a possibility but unable to explain what happened any other way.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
I'm torn about ghosts. As a boy I did believe in them, desperately wanted to see one, and never did. So, from personal experience, they don't exist. On the other hand, over the years various different friends I trust have told me about their experiences of seeing ghosts. So, from the experience of others, they do exist.
The two main possibilities, as far as I'm concerned, are: a) these friends have some innate sensitivity that I lack b) they have made an honest mistake about what they saw, or what they remember (I don't think they were trying to deceive me).
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Tubifex Maximus
Shipmate
# 4874
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
...The two main possibilities, as far as I'm concerned, are: a) these friends have some innate sensitivity that I lack b) they have made an honest mistake about what they saw, or what they remember (I don't think they were trying to deceive me).
Or perhaps what we call a ghost is a transient and unpredictable phenomenon. You've never seen a ghost but you've never been struck by lightning either, sort of thing. At least, I hope you haven't.
I believe that I have seen a ghost, twice, and so has my father. The experience was of standing in a room, reasonably lit, late at night. The room suddenly became cold, I was aware that I was looking through a mist that had condensed in the room. The mist contracted into a vaguely human outline, greyish white and opaque and then dissipated. the entire experience lasted about 5 seconds. The room then slowly returned to its normal temperature; the central heating was on
I take no view as to whether I saw the spirit of a human being, but I'm certain that this was an objective phenomenon and not a hallucination. My father's experience agrees with mine remarkably, he had the experience before I was born and told nobody until I confided my first experience in him, so there was no scope for his experience to have influenced mine.
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Sit down, Oh sit down, sit down next to me.
Posts: 400 | From: Manchester | Registered: Aug 2003
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
The two main possibilities, as far as I'm concerned, are: a) these friends have some innate sensitivity that I lack b) they have made an honest mistake about what they saw, or what they remember (I don't think they were trying to deceive me).
The memory aspect is interesting. I've had friends tell me about some sort of "encounter" in detail shortly after the event, but a few years later when I mention it they claim not to have any idea what I'm talking about. Not "oh, I later realized it was the cat" but "no such thing ever happened and I never said it did."
Forget? Get ridiculed too much (or by one person important to them) and decided to drop the topic for good? Fear that being older makes them vulnerable to being locked up in a old age home as incompetent if they say unconventional things? Afraid of the implications if there really are creatures that we cannot control?
Just last night at a friend's house one woman said her (long dead) son had visited her briefly the night before, it's been a while, she always has the impression when it happens that he's busy, on his way somewhere, just stopping by for a quick moment. But it gives her a contentment. No one suggested she's crazy, but made supportive comments agreeing occasional (rare) visits from a dead loved one are -- I don't know the word. Treasured.
Just the brain imaging things? Maybe. Can have a powerful helpful effect sometimes.
Awful lot of my friends report various encounters in private gatherings but would never say anything about it in general public. But then, we don't usually talk about deeply personal things in public, and a visit of reassurance or encouragement or love from one's dead son or dead mother is deeply personal.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
I think it's not just be good science, but good theology to say that there is just one world, and that there isn't another world alongside it, no spirit dimension, no supernatural realm.
Where did the resurrected Jesus ascend to, where is Jesus right now? Where did Gideon's angel go? Who did Moses talk to at the bush or on the mountain?
I have no problem with your concept that there is one world, but a world broader in the whole than the part we see and measure.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Alaric the Goth
Shipmate
# 511
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Posted
I have another, more personal, ghostly experience to recount. I was with my late mother when she died on Boxing Day, 2007 in an old people’s home. At the end of August 2008 I had at last managed to sell her house, and brought most of the contents down to the one I now live in, including the double bed she had slept in the last few years she was still living in her own house.
My partner was stopping one night and I couldn’t sleep for her loud snoring. Except that I wasn’t hearing the snoring through my ears and it wasn’t her snoring, I later realised, because I have ‘heard’ it again many times since, a quite distinctive sound, even though alone. I did not at first assume it was a ghost, as I say the very first time I thought it was my partner, and I even thought on other occasions, when alone, that it was me (my heartbeat or something coming through the bed/pillow). But attempts to shift position so I didn’t hear it, etc. and the way I realised I wasn’t getting it through my ears, convinced me it was ‘supernatural’ even before I realised ‘who’ it was. I know I haven’t dreamt it as, particularly at first, it kept me awake.
I initially wondered whether it was the ghost of a man who had lived in the house, husband of the woman I bought the house off, or could it be a resident from before that? But then the obvious occurred to me: I had heard this particular breathing before, as it was the same (I would describe it as ‘tragic’) noise my late mother was making in her last days/hours before she died. It has grown fainter with time, but even now I still sometimes ‘hear’ it (I have prayed, more than once, that my mum goes to find rest with the Lord, and I have not had the sound as ‘loud’ since). It seems to be from above and to the left now, if a sound you don’t get through your ears can be located (I cannot explain this any better: if you have had a similar experience you would understand). I only receive(d) it in that bed in that room.
[ 10. September 2012, 15:25: Message edited by: Alaric the Goth ]
Posts: 3322 | From: West Thriding | Registered: Jun 2001
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
A further "strange" experience to relate. My mother on 3rd October 2009. I, my father, my wife and my eldest daughter were with her.
When we returned home to my daughters house (soem 40 miles away) we were met by a very agitated son in law. We couldn't say anything but he claims he had heard and sensed grandma in our granddaughters bedroom. What happened at 3.20 am he asked: her time of death had been given to us as 3.20 am.
Did great grandma come for a last look at the little grandchild she loved so much?
The other fact of the story is this: our son in law clearly heard our grandaughter talking to someone she seemed to know. She never but never woke up and was a sound sleeper.
Was this wishful thinking? He's a pretty sound sort of chap not given to fancies. No one knew she was dying when we went to the hospital.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
Four close family members were at a bedside in a hospital at 3.20am, but "no one knew she was dying" when you went to the hospital? It must surely have been an emotionally charged time.
I'm not wishing to doubt or discredit anything you, Exclamation Mark, or anyone else says. It's just that so many stories of the paranormal do tend to shift when you investigate them. I remember a friend, a scientist and a sceptic, telling a group of us about a haunted house he had lived in, and the many people who went there and were so scared they couldn't stay for the whole night. It was very impressive and credible evidence. On another occasion he talked about it again, and admitted that he had never seen or heard a single suspicious thing, and that those who had stayed, all university students, had probably all been well aware of the house's reputation, and in many cases quite deliberately primed with a few good creepy ghost stories. He said he was sure it could all be explained by suggestion, expectation and the atmosphere of a very remote and old house.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
I worked in a building, supplies were kept in the basement, closing up at night the staff were to turn out all the lights before locking up. Morning after morning I'd come to work and see the basement light on and remind staff to turn out ALL the lights.
Finally one night when I was on late shift one of the staff said after we locked up "wait here and watch." After ten minutes I was impatient, but he said "just wait." After 20 minutes the basement light came on. (It had those basement windows in wells with just a bit of glass above ground level.)
He said "See? It's not us failing to turn the lights off."
I assumed a electrical issue and called he electricians. They couldn't find any problem.
I started checking the light switch, (staff were glad to have me go fetch supplies sometimes, they said the basement was "creepy" and hated to go there). The light switch was the lever kind like I grew up with. By mid-afternoon it would be partially raised from the fully down position.
I said to myself, someone is seeking light. So one afternoon I said (to the empty room, no living human anywhere near), "You are seeking light, the light you want is Jesus." I explained briefly the gospel message, and suggested the, um, whatever, go to Jesus, and I assured the, um, whatever, of a loving welcome.
I had as if a sense of listening, someone listening to me, and then a sense of departure, someone going diagonally up and away.
I told no one (except many years later). Hey, I didn't want to be laughed at, scorned! But the basement light never again came on by itself. Staff stopped resisting if I asked them to fetch supplies from the basement.
Some Pentecostal friends assume all encounters are "demons," but this incident is when I started wondering if there is something to the concept of "lost souls." Not lost as in "gone to hell" but as in not knowing where to go, what do do, after they are dead.
Doesn't make sense to me theologically, but I try not to let academic theology overrule reality.
Reports of visits from the dead shortly after death, even a visit being the way people first learn of a loved ones death, are startlingly common. Again, I don't care what theology says, with so many reporting it, I'm not going to say "can't happen."
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Noxious
Apprentice
# 17318
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Posted
I've had more than a few supernatural experiences of one type or another but on this particular subject, a fairly distant cousin died in a car accident some years ago and I wasn't able to get to the funeral. On the day, my toddler son had finished up his dinner and started giggling and cooing at the wall opposite. This was out of the ordinary for him - goodness knows if walls had been that fascinating we'd have saved a fortune on toys - and his animation lasted for a minute or two before normal service was resumed. I was puzzled and a bit spooked anyway but looked at the clock to see where he was at with his impending nap and it was 1.15 - precisely the time of her funeral which had been completely out of my mind. It would have been entirely her style to pull a few cheeky faces at the relative she'd never met before slinging her hook (and, for what it's worth, he was looking at not far off eye level for her diminutive stature). I'm well aware it falls short of the scientific method and it doesn't quite fit with my theology but I'm prepared to be open-minded.
His brother never had a similar experience but don't get him started on the 'Oval Man' he says he can see from his bedroom window jumping from roof to roof every night... visions of some Chinese demon meets Humpty Dumpty character terrorising neighbourhoods, misaligning satellite dishes and knocking slates out of kilter...
Posts: 6 | Registered: Sep 2012
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Trin
Shipmate
# 12100
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Just taking the eyewitnesses 13/300 = 4.3%
You'd think ghosts would be a widely acknowledged fact of life.
17 people have responded to this thread but as with any thread on this forum, there are many more people who read than post, who may be perfectly capable of contributing relevant experiences but haven't.
The point is, even if the figure is as low as 4.3% or even 1%, ghosts ought by now be well documented fact.
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
So, what kind of documentation are you thinking should exist?
Hatless has a very good point about the amount of cctv footage that never captures anything.
According to a conservative 1% estimate, out of a world population of 7 billion, and assuming an inflated average lifespan of 80 years, 2400 people around the world will see a ghost today, and day after day, not one of them happens to be captured on film with anything credible enough to make the 9 o clock news. Or even just convinces someone with the clout to initiate a study that then documents inexplicable drops in temperature or objects moving around etc.
Av. Lifespan = 80yrs x 365 = 29200 days in an average life
Chances of seeing a ghost in your lifetime = 0.01
Chances of it being today = 0.01/29200 = 0.00000034
0.00000034 x 7 billion = 2397 people
If we assume a lower lifespan, or a higher sighting percentage, the daily figure will of course increase.
Posts: 442 | From: UK | Registered: Nov 2006
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
While keeping an entirely open mind on this, not having ever seen anything identifiable as a ghost while awake, though having had a few odd unsought for experiences, the absence of records on film or digital media doesn't prove anything. Since, even with normal sight, it is the brain that does the seeing, it is quite possible that people can see things that gadgets can't.
One of those experiences was of seeing the face of someone I had never met, as if through the eyes of someone else in whose company she probably was. That the face appeared on the tiled splashback of a basin in a place she has never been to my knowledge was irrelevant. I was convinced at the time that I was projecting the image outside myself, but was really seeing it inside. I saw her later, and the image details were confirmed.
I would expect sightings (and hearings) of ghosts to be the same sort of thing, perceptions generated in the head, but interpreted as being outside in the real world.
I wouldn't have read this thread last night in my old home, in case I woke something. There was an odd feeling in the spare bedroom, almost confirmed by someone else. (1960's maisonette, top floor). Almost, because he would have been thinking of a reason why I asked him to go in there, so could have come up with a fellow feeling. I used to go in and pray, but to no avail.
It disappeared when I had a friend who had lost the roof of his park home in October 1987 to stay until his place was replaced. Part of his life was to say the offices, so the room had Compline in it every night he was there. He never mentioned anything.
I was never quite sure that it hadn't simply moved next door or something, so did nothing to encourage it. Like thinking about it.
[ 11. September 2012, 10:36: Message edited by: Penny S ]
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Thyme
Shipmate
# 12360
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Posted
Many millions of people testify to experiences of an encounter with/seeing/meeting Jesus, but it has never been captured on film.
Like answers to prayer and miracles the supernatural can never be conclusively proved or disproved by films or photo or other tangible things.
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The Church in its own bubble has become, at best the guardian of the value system of the nation’s grandparents, and at worst a den of religious anoraks defined by defensiveness, esoteric logic and discrimination. Bishop of Buckingham's blog
Posts: 600 | From: Cloud Cuckoo Land | Registered: Feb 2007
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thyme:
Many millions of people testify to experiences of an encounter with/seeing/meeting Jesus, but it has never been captured on film.
Like answers to prayer and miracles the supernatural can never be conclusively proved or disproved by films or photo or other tangible things.
I've never understood why anyone would expect ghosts, or anything of the spirit world to be caught on film It's one argument against ghosts I'd take off the table. After all, many of us believe in angels, despite there never being a single example caught on film. And despite the overwhelming number of people who believe in God and angels, you'll never see a scientific study or anything proving their existence either. I will add that I'm another who has never seen a ghost or had a paranormal experience.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thyme:
Many millions of people testify to experiences of an encounter with/seeing/meeting Jesus, but it has never been captured on film.
Like answers to prayer and miracles the supernatural can never be conclusively proved or disproved by films or photo or other tangible things.
nor, of course, can it be conclusively proven by intangible things - which is why acceptance of anything supernatural is a belief/faith/superstition.
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
Posts: 894 | From: Middle England | Registered: Apr 2010
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egg
Shipmate
# 3982
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
I think it's not just be good science, but good theology to say that there is just one world, and that there isn't another world alongside it, no spirit dimension, no supernatural realm.
Where did the resurrected Jesus ascend to, where is Jesus right now? Where did Gideon's angel go? Who did Moses talk to at the bush or on the mountain?
I have no problem with your concept that there is one world, but a world broader in the whole than the part we see and measure.
I think it's largely a matter of terminology, whether you say that there are a material world and a non-material world co-existing, or a single world only part of which is susceptible to scientific investigation. The whole was created by God.
Professor Wiebe, who subjects accounts of this kind to critical examination and does not simply treat accounts given by apparently truthful percipients as genuine, says that there are so many recorded "Christic visions", i.e. visions of Jesus, that, although at one time the truth of them was doubted, it is now widely accepted in the academic world that they genuinely occur.
The situation is similar to that of Near Death Experiences (NDEs). Until quite recently accounts of NDEs were commonly dismissed as fantasy; but with the great increase of modern methods of resuscitation, the accounts of NDEs have become so common that it is accepted that most of them are genuine accounts of objective events.
If it is accepted that the accounts of Jesus's Resurrection appearances are largely true, and that accounts of Christic visions in the 20th and 21st centuries are also largely true, Belle Ringer's questions demand an answer. My answer is that Jesus (like many others who have departed from mortal life) is alive in a non-material sphere which exists at the same time as, or alongside, the material world which scientists can investigate. Belle Ringer's answer that it is all one world, only part of which is susceptible to scientific investigation, is just as good. As I say, it is a matter of terminology, and the whole of whatever exists was in my belief created by God, whose existence is itself not susceptible to scientific investigation.
[ 11. September 2012, 14:03: Message edited by: egg ]
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egg
Posts: 110 | From: London UK | Registered: Jan 2003
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Trin
Shipmate
# 12100
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thyme:
Like answers to prayer and miracles the supernatural can never be conclusively proved or disproved by films or photo or other tangible things.
The sorts of things people describe - seeing figures, drop in temperature, objects moving around - sound quite tangible. It's a bit convenient to be able to say "ah yes well the ghostly manifestations are only real in your mind", although having said that, that's quite a good summary of my position.
Posts: 442 | From: UK | Registered: Nov 2006
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by egg:
I think it's largely a matter of terminology, whether you say that there are a material world and a non-material world co-existing, or a single world only part of which is susceptible to scientific investigation. The whole was created by God. That is your opinion. You are entitled to say that it is your opinion. You may even be right but unless you can produce irrefutable evidence to support your belief you really shouldn’t suggest that you have certain knowledge which you don’t have/can’t demonstrate.
Professor Wiebe, who subjects accounts of this kind to critical examination and does not simply treat accounts given by apparently truthful percipients as genuine, says that there are so many recorded "Christic visions", i.e. visions of Jesus, that, although at one time the truth of them was doubted, it is now widely accepted in the academic world that they genuinely occur. Professor who? which bit of the academic world would that be then? links? arguments from possible authority are not evidence – do you have any?
The situation is similar to that of Near Death Experiences (NDEs). Until quite recently accounts of NDEs were commonly dismissed as fantasy; but with the great increase of modern methods of resuscitation, the accounts of NDEs have become so common that it is accepted that most of them are genuine accounts of objective events. by whom? From Wikipedia Many NDE reports, however, originate from events that are not life-threatening. With recent developments in cardiac resuscitation techniques, the number of reported NDEs has increased. The experiences have been described in medical journals as having the characteristics of hallucinations, while parapsychologists, religious believers and some mainstream scientists have pointed to them as evidence of an afterlife and mind-body dualism.
If and I trust you realise it is a pair of very big ifs it is accepted that the accounts of Jesus's Resurrection appearances are largely true, and that accounts of Christic visions in the 20th and 21st centuries are also largely true, Belle Ringer's questions demand an answer. My answer is that Jesus (like many others who have departed from mortal life) is alive in a non-material sphere which exists at the same time as, or alongside, the material world which scientists can investigate. Belle Ringer's answer that it is all one world, only part of which is susceptible to scientific investigation, is just as good. As I say, it is a matter of terminology, and the whole of whatever exists was in my belief created by God, whose existence is itself not susceptible to scientific investigation. "God, whose existence is itself not susceptible to scientific investigation" thus placing God (all of them?) on the same indefensible plane as homeopathy, chi, feng-shui, dowsing, applied kinesiology and his blessed noodliness the Flying Spaghetti Monster et al .
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
Posts: 894 | From: Middle England | Registered: Apr 2010
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
some people will sometimes see things (...) what they see will depend on where they live, what ideas they've grown up with, what stories they heard as a child, and what they expect. We would expect that the experiences people report will be shaped by their culture. They will be experiencing a cultural phenomenon, but as if it were an external event (...) and not any underlying natural reality.
I quite like the theory explored by Douglas Adams in The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul in which Norse deities have not ceased to exist but are now irrelevant in the modern world, and have to eke out a living by having bit-parts in TV commercials and so on.
I similarly find hatless' explanation quite attractive, but I'm not sure I agree with his implied conclusion that a "cultural phenomenon" precludes "any underlying natural reality" and wonder if it might not even create something that is as "real" as the tangible, material sort of things that everybody bumps into.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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egg
Shipmate
# 3982
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Posted
May I take up some of HughWillridme’s comments:
1. “unless you can produce irrefutable evidence to support your belief you really shouldn’t suggest that you have certain knowledge which you don’t have/can’t demonstrate”. That is the difficulty with all non-material occurrences. Some with a scientific bias are so unwilling to accept any evidence that is not measurable by a scientist or is not repeatable to order that they refuse to accept that the non-material world exists That is why Keith Ward entitles his book “Why there almost certainly is a God – Doubting Dawkins”. The evidence for the existence of telepathy, acquired using scientific methods, is very strong, but because it is not repeatable to order some sceptics still refuse to accept it – because if it is accepted it means that the materialist explanation of the world does not give the full picture.
2. “Professor who? which bit of the academic world would that be then? links? arguments from possible authority are not evidence – do you have any? Professor Phillip Wiebe is, or was in 1997, Professor of Philosophy and Dean of Arts and Religious Studies at Trinity Western University in Canada.. Links: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phillip_H._Wiebe; and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_Western_University. His book “Visions of Jesus” contains the most thorough critical evaluation of accounts of visions or appearances of Jesus, from the New Testament to the late 20th century, with copious references to the works of other philosophers and theologians, that I have read. Obtainable on Amazon: for a fair and not wholly favourable review (***) see http://www.amazon.com/Visions-Jesus-Direct-Encounters-Testament/product-reviews/0195126696/ref=sr_1_1_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&s howViewpoints=1
3. NDEs: “The experiences have been described in medical journals as having the characteristics of hallucinations,..." Perhaps my use of the word “objective” was going a little too far. Hallucinations may be self-induced, or (in Bishop Hugh Montefiore’s term) veridical hallucinations, i.e. induced by an outside agent. As you say, NDEs are accepted by many as falling into the latter category and as “evidence of an afterlife and mind-body dualism”.
4. "God, whose existence is itself not susceptible to scientific investigation" thus placing God (all of them?) on the same indefensible plane as homeopathy, chi, feng-shui, dowsing, applied kinesiology and his blessed noodliness the Flying Spaghetti Monster et al .” I don’t think this is acceptable language on this ship, coming from someone who obviously has not read my earlier posting with an open mind. Most shipmates accept the possibility of the existence of God. If you do not, perhaps you should blog elsewhere.
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egg
Posts: 110 | From: London UK | Registered: Jan 2003
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by egg:
May I take up some of HughWillridme’s comments:
1. “unless you can produce irrefutable evidence to support your belief you really shouldn’t suggest that you have certain knowledge which you don’t have/can’t demonstrate”. That is the difficulty with all non-material occurrences. no it’s not – the problem with non-material occurrences is that they cannot be shown to occur, and therefore the rational conclusion is that they either don’t occur (they are better called material non-occurrances) or that their occurrence is irrelevant to matter (including human beings).
Do you consider it morally acceptable to present belief as fact?
Some with a scientific bias are so unwilling to accept any evidence that is not measurable by a scientist or is not repeatable to order that they refuse to accept that the non-material world exists would you try to defeat a life-threatening disease by the use of drugs whose effectiveness cannot be measured or repeated despite the existence of proven alternatives? " That is why Keith Ward entitles his book “Why there almost certainly is a God – Doubting Dawkins”. The evidence for the existence of telepathy, acquired using scientific methods, is very strong, but because it is not repeatable to order some sceptics still refuse to accept it – because if it is accepted it means that the materialist explanation of the world does not give the full picture. what evidence re telepathy? If you make such an assertion you should provide something to support it. A book does not, of itself, justify anything, otherwise you would expect me to believe in the Bermuda Triangle, Robin Hood and a talking snake.
2. “Professor who? which bit of the academic world would that be then? links? arguments from possible authority are not evidence – do you have any? Professor Phillip Wiebe is, or was in 1997, Professor of Philosophy and Dean of Arts and Religious Studies at Trinity Western University in Canada.. Links: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phillip_H._Wiebe; and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_Western_University. His book “Visions of Jesus” contains the most thorough critical evaluation of accounts of visions or appearances of Jesus, from the New Testament to the late 20th century, with copious references to the works of other philosophers and theologians, that I have read. Obtainable on Amazon: for a fair and not wholly favourable review (***) see http://www.amazon.com/Visions-Jesus-Direct-Encounters-Testament/product-reviews/0195126696/ref=sr_1_1_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&s howViewpoints=1
My knowledge of academia is poor but this doesn't seem to me to be a main-stream scientist employed at a typical university.
There is only one review which includes "The author also points out the strange fact that all percipients he interviewed immediately recognized the person in their visions as Jesus, despite nobody knowing how Jesus really looked like" and concludes “Wiebe never reaches a firm conclusion, and as already mentioned, his book became tedious to read after a while. I admit that I didn't read literally every word of it..."
Suggesting that it is “ now widely accepted in the academic world that they (Cristic visions) genuinely occur." based on these links seems to me akin to saying that it is now widely accepted in the academic world that the pyramids were built by aliens because someone published a website saying that it could be so.
3. NDEs: “The experiences have been described in medical journals as having the characteristics of hallucinations,..." Perhaps my use of the word “objective” was going a little too far. Hallucinations may be self-induced, or (in Bishop Hugh Montefiore’s term) veridical hallucinations, i.e. induced by an outside agent. As you say, NDEs are accepted by many as falling into the latter category and as “evidence of an afterlife and mind-body dualism”. actually it’s the Wikipedia writer who says so, but many people have accepted that lightning was the gods hurling thunderbolts, that the earth was the centre of the universe and that wisdom comes with age.
4. "God, whose existence is itself not susceptible to scientific investigation" thus placing God (all of them?) on the same indefensible plane as homeopathy, chi, feng-shui, dowsing, applied kinesiology and his blessed noodliness the Flying Spaghetti Monster et al .” I don’t think this is acceptable language on this ship, coming from someone who obviously has not read my earlier posting with an open mind. I don’t have an open mind, my brain hasn’t fallen out. The common basis for all these concepts is that not one of them is "susceptible to scientific investigation". Most shipmates accept the possibility of the existence of God. If you do not, perhaps you should blog elsewhere. Not exactly a rational response is it?
Actually I accept the possibility of the existence of some sort of supernatural being(s) which might equate to god(s). Just as I accept the possibility of unicorns, the Loch Ness Monster and Bertrand Russell's teapot. However, the absence of any evidence to support a possibility means, to my mind, that belief in that possibility is premature, unnecessary and, frankly, somewhat silly.
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
Posts: 894 | From: Middle England | Registered: Apr 2010
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passer
Indigo
# 13329
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by egg:
Most shipmates accept the possibility of the existence of God. If you do not, perhaps you should blog elsewhere.
ITTWACW ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Posts: 1289 | From: Sheffield | Registered: Jan 2008
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egg
Shipmate
# 3982
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by passer:
ITTWACW [/QB]
I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with this one and can't work it out. Would you kindly translate.
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egg
Posts: 110 | From: London UK | Registered: Jan 2003
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passer
Indigo
# 13329
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Posted
Apologies - I assumed that as a long-time member you'd have come across the acronym before. It stands for: "I Thought This Was A Christian Website". I was using it sarcastically, which is the normal practice. It's generally levelled at people who post protestations such as the one by you which I quoted. Not accepting the possibility of the existence of God does not disqualify anyone from being a member of SoF and contributing to the discussions on the boards.
You can contribute to the Ship's finances by buying a mug with it on - I'm drinking tea from one right now.
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egg
Shipmate
# 3982
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
Actually I accept the possibility of the existence of some sort of supernatural being(s) which might equate to god(s). Just as I accept the possibility of unicorns, the Loch Ness Monster and Bertrand Russell's teapot. However, the absence of any evidence to support a possibility means, to my mind, that belief in that possibility is premature, unnecessary and, frankly, somewhat silly.
[/QUOTE]
[ 14. September 2012, 16:13: Message edited by: egg ]
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egg
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egg
Shipmate
# 3982
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Posted
[Continued] Actually there is a great deal of evidence for the existence of a supernatural being, stretching back at least 4000 years. It just doesn't happen to have been tested in a laboratory. However most of those who do not believe would hesitate to call it silly, any more than they would call a belief that a rose smells sweeter than a dandelion, or that a sunset can be beautiful, or that love can exist between husband and wife, silly. Bem and Honorton, Does psi exist? (http://www.dina.kvl.dk/~abraham/psy1.html) suspect that "one's reactions to the data [on telepathy] are ultimately determined by whether one was more severely punished in childhood for Type I or Type II errors" (Type I being to assert that an effect exists when it does not, Type II being to assert that an effect does not exist when it does). I think they mean that those who were more severely punished for Type I errors tend to turn out to be among those who refuse to accept the considerable amount of evidence that telepathy exists.
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egg
Posts: 110 | From: London UK | Registered: Jan 2003
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egg
Shipmate
# 3982
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by passer:
Apologies - I assumed that as a long-time member you'd have come across the acronym before. It stands for: "I Thought This Was A Christian Website". I was using it sarcastically, which is the normal practice. It's generally levelled at people who post protestations such as the one by you which I quoted. Not accepting the possibility of the existence of God does not disqualify anyone from being a member of SoF and contributing to the discussions on the boards.
Thank you. At least I would have thought that most contributors would have an open mind on most subjects of this kind that have not been scientifically proved. HughWillRidMe claims not to have.
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egg
Posts: 110 | From: London UK | Registered: Jan 2003
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Truman White
Shipmate
# 17290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
quote:
Originally posted by egg:
May I take up some of HughWillridme’s comments:
"[qb]
2. “Professor who? which bit of the academic world would that be then? links? arguments from possible authority are not evidence – do you have any? Professor Phillip Wiebe is, or was in 1997, Professor of Philosophy and Dean of Arts and Religious Studies at Trinity Western University in Canada.. Links: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phillip_H._Wiebe; and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_Western_University. His book “Visions of Jesus” contains the most thorough critical evaluation of accounts of visions or appearances of Jesus, from the New Testament to the late 20th century, with copious references to the works of other philosophers and theologians, that I have read. Obtainable on Amazon: for a fair and not wholly favourable review (***) see http://www.amazon.com/Visions-Jesus-Direct-Encounters-Testament/product-reviews/0195126696/ref=sr_1_1_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&s howViewpoints=1
My knowledge of academia is poor but this doesn't seem to me to be a main-stream scientist employed at a typical university..
Yes, your knowledge of academia is poor. The book is published by
Oxford University Press (US branch). Like any academic work it has stimulated debate. You may not agree with the conclusions, but anything published by OUP should be taken as serious academic research. Where the author works is less of a guide to the seriousness of the content than who has decided to print it.
[ 14. September 2012, 21:35: Message edited by: Truman White ]
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Walsingham Tilde
Apprentice
# 17311
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Posted
Some years ago, when we moved into a brand-new vicarage, we noticed an unpleasant smell around the front door. It grew stronger, so the drains were checked (new drains don’t always flow smoothly) but all was well. As the stench increased, we noticed three sinister things: first, that it was the unmistakeable smell of rotting flesh; secondly, that it was contained within a definite area - roughly a square metre; thirdly, that the area was moving. Over about a week it had moved through the hall – and then it started to come up the stairs.
At this point I did a house blessing and home Eucharist – and the phenomenon ended at once.
No explanation – but I promise this is true.
Have other shipmates experienced supernatural smells?
Posts: 4 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Sep 2012
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Welcome to the Ship Walsingham Tilde ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Did you not consider co-incidence as an explanation?
That the smell would have gone at that moment anyway?
I don't believe that anything is supernatural. Unexplained,yes. Many, many things which were once considered supernatural can now be explained. The same is true for all such phenomena imo.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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angelfish
Shipmate
# 8884
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Posted
It is notable that doubters are often unable to produce any alternative explanation beyond "it was a coincidence". What, in the phantom smell case, do you think caused it Boogie? I am sure that some alleged supernatural phenomena are in fact caused by more mundane events, but I am also sure that there are genuine supernatural occurrences in the world. My parents together witnessed a figure of a man crouching at the foot of their bed. When Dad told it to leave, it crouched lower as if trying to hide, so Dad told it in no uncertain terms to leave and it fled through the window, causing the curtains to waft as it passed through them. Are shared hallucinations or dreams possible? Or is the more likely explanation that they in fact saw what they think they saw?
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"As God is my witness, I WILL kick Bishop Brennan up the arse!"
Posts: 1017 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2004
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Walsingham Tilde:
Some years ago, when we moved into a brand-new vicarage, we noticed an unpleasant smell around the front door. It grew stronger, so the drains were checked (new drains don’t always flow smoothly) but all was well. As the stench increased, we noticed three sinister things: first, that it was the unmistakeable smell of rotting flesh; secondly, that it was contained within a definite area - roughly a square metre; thirdly, that the area was moving. Over about a week it had moved through the hall – and then it started to come up the stairs.
At this point I did a house blessing and home Eucharist – and the phenomenon ended at once.
No explanation – but I promise this is true.
Have other shipmates experienced supernatural smells?
A dead rodent under the floor? It's astonishing how much they smell, it's most unpleasant, and it's very localised. It grows in intensity for a week or so, and then the corpse dries out and stops smelling (or the maggots finish their work). And of course one rat or mouse could move the body of another one very easily, or a change in the wind direction could affect the place where the smell gets into the house and you detect it.
I've lived in houses where this has happened twice. It's not common. But why, I wonder, would you think a smell was a sign of the supernatural? Well, you didn't at first, but then you did.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Walsingham Tilde:
Some years ago, when we moved into a brand-new vicarage, we noticed an unpleasant smell around the front door. It grew stronger, so the drains were checked (new drains don’t always flow smoothly) but all was well. As the stench increased, we noticed three sinister things: first, that it was the unmistakeable smell of rotting flesh; secondly, that it was contained within a definite area - roughly a square metre; thirdly, that the area was moving. Over about a week it had moved through the hall – and then it started to come up the stairs.
At this point I did a house blessing and home Eucharist – and the phenomenon ended at once.
No explanation – but I promise this is true.
Have other shipmates experienced supernatural smells?
I was doing a week's mission in a small northern town some years ago. I was sleeping in a church hall, and woke up during the first night. I felt what I can only describe as a heavy presence in the room - so heavy I was finding it difficult to breathe. I prayed until I fell asleep but it was an uncomfortable experience. The team prayed in the room the next day and I slept better for the rest of the week.
During the week a couple of local young ladies started to come to our meeting. They were pleasant and engaging, but always wore black. During the week they came to faith. Explaining their spritiual journey they related how they had held seances in the church hall.
There are very good reasons why the idea that the material world is all that exists is, and always has been, a minority view amongst humanity.
[ 15. September 2012, 16:14: Message edited by: Ramarius ]
Posts: 950 | From: Virtually anywhere | Registered: Jul 2011
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by angelfish:
It is notable that doubters are often unable to produce any alternative explanation beyond "it was a coincidence". What, in the phantom smell case, do you think caused it Boogie?
I have no idea - it could have been one of many things. We had a terrible smell when a rat died in the cavity wall, it stopped smelling when nothing was left to smell, but was only discovered years later. Anyone could have called this unexplained smell 'supernatural'.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by angelfish:
Are shared hallucinations or dreams possible?
Yes they are. The power of suggestion is incredibly strong.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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angelfish
Shipmate
# 8884
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by angelfish:
Are shared hallucinations or dreams possible?
Yes they are. The power of suggestion is incredibly strong.
Yes, but in my parents' case, who was doing the suggesting? They both woke up at the same time and saw the same thing. Nobody told them to expect it, or said that the house was haunted (although they did discover some time later that the previous owner had called in a spiritualist healer to try to help her mentally ill son). It is hard to see how the "power of suggestion" was at work in that case.
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"As God is my witness, I WILL kick Bishop Brennan up the arse!"
Posts: 1017 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2004
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
What is 'a figure of a man'? Why not a man? If you see a man, you see a man. If you see a figure of a man, it strikes me that you may be talking about indistinct shapes, about light and shadow. Who knows.
In your story, Angelfish, your father orders 'it' to leave, and it 'flees' through the window. This is already the description of a phantom. A real person at the foot of the bed could, conceivably leap through a window, but it wouldn't be described as fleeing. The curtains wouldn't waft, they would tangle and flap. Most people would be scared by a person in the bedroom, but would probably try to talk to them, rather than commanding them to go.
So the description you've given us is of something your father saw and, even as he saw it, decided was a phantom of some sort. So it seems to me. That your mother says she saw the same is hardly surprising. If I was woken from sleep by someone talking to a shadow, I've no idea what I'd see or think was going on, but I could well seize on another person's interpretation of events; I'm not very good in those first seconds of consciousness.
I've never seen a ghost or experienced anything paranormal. Nor have any of the CCTV cameras around, or people making YouTube videos. One of our shipmates once said he worked in a concentration camp and spent the night there on occasion and never saw a thing. The stories we do get are almost always very 'soft' in terms of facts, and often told in ways that show the person telling them has a propensity to believe in the supernatural, that is they describe things that I wouldn't assume to be paranormal, but which they do.
The evidence just isn't there, for me. And the desire to believe in a parallel reality is, I think, theologically and spiritually suspect.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
I was sleeping in a church hall, and woke up during the first night. I felt what I can only describe as a heavy presence in the room - so heavy I was finding it difficult to breathe. I prayed until I fell asleep but it was an uncomfortable experience. The team prayed in the room the next day and I slept better for the rest of the week.
It sounds to me like you experienced an episode of sleep paralysis: quote:
Folk belief in Newfoundland, South Carolina and Georgia describe the negative figure of the hag who leaves her physical body at night, and sits on the chest of her victim. The victim usually wakes with a feeling of terror, has difficulty breathing because of a perceived heavy invisible weight on his or her chest, and is unable to move
One cause of this can be anxiety - quite understandable at the start of a mission and sleeping in a strange location, especially a church hall (yes I could tell some stories. I remember the one in Paris where the chap in the next sleeping bag along turned in saying "I suppose this is where we get to play 'meet the rodent'").
I'm glad this condition went away after prayer - but that's as likely to be because you were reassured as anything else.
quote:
During the week a couple of local young ladies started to come to our meeting. They were pleasant and engaging, but always wore black. During the week they came to faith. Explaining their spritiual journey they related how they had held seances in the church hall.
I assume you are intending to imply a connection between this and your experience - although you don't specifically say so.
Once again we come back to the problem of reporting. I presume that you heard these ladies' testimony first hand, but even if you did, how can you be sure they were telling the truth? And even if they were telling the truth, what would lead you to believe that their actions somehow explained what you experienced?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Walsingham Tilde:
Some years ago, when we moved into a brand-new vicarage, we noticed an unpleasant smell around the front door. It grew stronger, so the drains were checked (new drains don’t always flow smoothly) but all was well. As the stench increased, we noticed three sinister things: first, that it was the unmistakeable smell of rotting flesh; secondly, that it was contained within a definite area - roughly a square metre; thirdly, that the area was moving. Over about a week it had moved through the hall – and then it started to come up the stairs.
At this point I did a house blessing and home Eucharist – and the phenomenon ended at once.
No explanation – but I promise this is true.
Have other shipmates experienced supernatural smells?
Welcome Walsingham Tilde.
I can confirm that dead rats seem attracted to new vicarages. We found one in the foundations of one we were to move into (before they were built upon fortunately) in 1953!
Why do you think the smell was supernatural?
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
Posts: 894 | From: Middle England | Registered: Apr 2010
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by egg:
quote:
Originally posted by passer:
Apologies - I assumed that as a long-time member you'd have come across the acronym before. It stands for: "I Thought This Was A Christian Website". I was using it sarcastically, which is the normal practice. It's generally levelled at people who post protestations such as the one by you which I quoted. Not accepting the possibility of the existence of God does not disqualify anyone from being a member of SoF and contributing to the discussions on the boards.
Thank you. At least I would have thought that most contributors would have an open mind on most subjects of this kind that have not been scientifically proved. HughWillRidMe claims not to have.
Thanks passer - though I admit that I also was unaware of the meaning of ITTWACW.
Egg: I suspect that very few SoF contributors have an entirely open mind on the existence of the supernatural - it's just that most tend to acceptance rather than rejection. Do you have an open mind about the possibility that there is no supernatural?
quote:
Originally posted by egg:
[Continued] Actually there is a great deal of evidence for the existence of a supernatural being, stretching back at least 4000 years. such as?
It just doesn't happen to have been tested in a laboratory. It doesn’t have to be – The Templeton Foundation carried out a well organised and well funded trial relating to prayer without needing to go into a laboratory. The STEP Project
However most of those who do not believe would hesitate to call it silly, any more than they would call a belief that a rose smells sweeter than a dandelion, or that a sunset can be beautiful, or that love can exist between husband and wife, silly. You know the minds of most who do not believe? Even at 51% that's a heck of a lot of minds.
I have excellent evidence for the existence of roses and dandelions (though many modern roses have little or no scent) and can evaluate my preference without recourse to the supernatural. Similarly I can appreciate beauty without invoking some unknown agency and there is (in addition to my personal experiences) good experimental evidence for changes within the brain when people experience “love” click
You offer Bem and Honorton, Does psi exist? (http://www.dina.kvl.dk/~abraham/psy1.html). (Published 1994) – a more up-to-date comment is found here and includes
"Skepticism and controversy
Although not a recognized scientific discipline, people who study certain types of paranormal phenomena such as telepathy refer to the field as parapsychology. Parapsychologists claim that some instances of telepathy are real. Skeptics say that instances of apparent telepathy are explained as the result of fraud, self-delusion and/or self-deception and that telepathy does not exist as a paranormal power.
Parapsychologists and skeptics agree that many of the instances of more popular psychic phenomena, such as mediums, can be attributed to non-paranormal techniques such as cold reading. Magicians such as Ian Rowland and Derren Brown have demonstrated techniques and results similar to those of popular psychics, without paranormal means. They have identified, described, and developed psychological techniques of cold reading and hot reading.
A technique which shows statistically significant evidence of telepathy on every occasion has yet to be discovered. This lack of reliable reproducibility has led skeptics to argue that there is no credible scientific evidence for the existence of telepathy at all. Skeptics also point to historical cases in which flaws in experimental design and occasional cases of fraud were uncovered."
I return to my earlier point - that claiming (or appearing to claim) certain knowledge when it does not exist is wrong/immoral whether the claimant is promoting a second-hand car, a cure for arthritis or a belief in the supernatural. If one wishes to have an extraordinary claim accepted by another person one should present extraordinary proof. If one cannot present such proof what one has is an opinion, a belief, a conviction, a faith etc.. To my mind people are entitled to think what they like (oops - tenth commandment override?) but surely they are not morally allowed to claim certainty when discussing/promoting their (however sincerely held) beliefs?
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
Posts: 894 | From: Middle England | Registered: Apr 2010
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angelfish
Shipmate
# 8884
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
What is 'a figure of a man'? Why not a man? If you see a man, you see a man. If you see a figure of a man, it strikes me that you may be talking about indistinct shapes, about light and shadow. Who knows.
In your story, Angelfish, your father orders 'it' to leave, and it 'flees' through the window. This is already the description of a phantom. A real person at the foot of the bed could, conceivably leap through a window, but it wouldn't be described as fleeing. The curtains wouldn't waft, they would tangle and flap. Most people would be scared by a person in the bedroom, but would probably try to talk to them, rather than commanding .
... And the desire to believe in a parallel reality is, I think, theologically and spiritually suspect
Well, I would have to ask him, but I am pretty sure my Dad described it as a "figure" because there was something not quite human about it, and the curtains wafted because that's how they moved. They didn't act as though a real human had just leaped through them (out of a closed first storey window by the way). As for the "commanding", I believe he said "get out" the first time which you might say to any unwelcome visitor, then when it crouched lower, "I can still see you, in Jesus' name get out". I am pretty certain that most burglars would have gone the first time, or bopped them both on the head.
You assume there is no paranormal, and therefore assume that people witnessing such things are layering meaning onto physical events but maybe it is you who are offering a post facto explaining-away of strange happenings.
Your point about the theologically suspect nature of all these things is interesting, and I would like to hear more on what your objections are on these grounds. For my part, I find evidence in scripture that there is indeed a spiritual plane, but that we are neither to seek to interfer with it, nor to fear it because we have authority in Jesus over any such beings.
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"As God is my witness, I WILL kick Bishop Brennan up the arse!"
Posts: 1017 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2004
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
"Folk belief in Newfoundland, South Carolina and Georgia describe the negative figure of the hag who leaves her physical body at night, and sits on the chest of her victim. The victim usually wakes with a feeling of terror, has difficulty breathing because of a perceived heavy invisible weight on his or her chest, and is unable to move."
One cause of this can be anxiety - quite understandable at the start of a mission and sleeping in a strange location, especially a church hall (yes I could tell some stories. I remember the one in Paris where the chap in the next sleeping bag along turned in saying "I suppose this is where we get to play 'meet the rodent'").
I had this happen to me once as a teenager (I was about 15) when I woke up early one morning at home in my own bed, feeling unusually sluggish, seeing a repulsive leathery creature crouched on my chest draining my energies. It felt exactly like the above, and I was unable to move. The image faded out and strength slowly started to return.
Mornings for me have almost always started pretty high-pitched - far from sluggish, I'm usually awake very quickly. That morning I felt drained. There's never been a repeat experience, but it fits the description. It is essentially what the succubus/incubus is said to do: they aren't always sexual, but are always vampiric in nature.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
angelfish said
quote:
You assume there is no paranormal, and therefore assume that people witnessing such things are layering meaning onto physical events but maybe it is you who are offering a post facto explaining-away of strange happenings.
A problem, I agree. How can one choose between two different viewpoints, each of which has its own assumptions?
Perhaps I could make two points in support of my viewpoint. First, that we have two good examples on this page of supposed paranormal events being easily explained by natural phenomena: dead rodent and sleep paralysis. Your father's experience isn't being dealt with so easily. The point is not only that the non-supernatural viewpoint offers a better or more elegant description, but that comparing the two viewpoints often reveals that the paranormal alternative includes what I'm reluctant to call a leap of faith (I like leaps of faith!), but that sort of thing, a readiness or eagerness to make the paranormal assumption.
The second point is that paranormal beliefs seem to be strongly culturally conditioned. The beliefs people pick up about ghosts, demons, telepathy and so on strongly influence the experiences they report. A trivial example would be the apparitions of Jesus or Mary that people see in toast or flaking paintwork. They are really apparitions of the traditional depictions of Jesus and Mary, because we have no idea how either of them looked. Similarly I think, though I lack the knowledge and evidence to prove it, that the ghosts people see are really examples of what their culture believes a ghost to be, and that the ghosts people in other cultures see are therefore different.
Which means that there is no natural phenomenon behind it. That's not to say that it isn't important or significant, but that it needs to be approached in different terms.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
The oddest experience I know of is that of my aunt, who woke (or perhaps was still asleep and dreaming, but felt at the time like she woke) one night in October 1942 to see her grandfather sitting beside her bed. He didn't say anything and she reported later a feeling of unease rather than the sense of comfort she normally had in her grandfather's presence. When she really woke in the morning and mentioned this to her family (she was 12 at the time) they reminded her that it was impossible for her grandfather to be there as they all knew he was on a ship at sea at the time.
Only a couple of days later, wartime communications being what they were, did they find out that on the same night she claimed to have seen her grandfather, his ship was torpedoed and sunk, and her grandfather was among those killed.
What strikes me as very odd about this story is that the belief that the dead "check in" with living family members as they're dying someplace far away is very common here in Newfoundland and many families would have stories similar to my aunt's. But my aunt and her family were very staunch Seventh-day Adventists and the belief that "the dead know not anything," and can make no "visits" or have no contact (due to there being no immortal soul) was extremely strongly ingrained in them. They would all, my then-12-year-old aunt included, have been horrified at the idea. So it goes directly against the grain of the common belief that in paranormal experiences people see what they expect to see and what is congruent with their belief system.
My aunt would NOT have believed in ghosts or spirits, and would have had no possible way of knowing of her grandfather's death (he was an officer on a civilian passenger vessel, though during wartime when there was certainly some risk of enemy action, but no immediate reason why she would have been anxious about his safety on that particular voyage). Yet there are numerous family members, some still living, who can attest that she reported the dream/vision/visitation well before anyone knew of the vessel's sinking.
I don't believe in ghosts but have always had to file this story under "there are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio..."
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
I think it's not just be good science, but good theology to say that there is just one world, and that there isn't another world alongside it, no spirit dimension, no supernatural realm. Everything that happens, that is real, happens in this one world.
This is, of course, not "good science", it is simply not (modern) science at all. It is a philosophical stance. Confusion arises because the working hypothesis of modern natural science is that all observations, or at least all repeatable ones, can be related to each other by regular relationships. But it is not necessary that one makes this hypothesis the foundation of one's philosophy. Instead one can consider this merely as a methodological principle. That is to say, having made (repeatable) observations, (modern) scientists always start by seeking their regular relationships to previous observations.
You further confuse the discussion by claiming that a "spirit dimension" or "supernatural realm" would require "another world". This is true only in a trivial sense, i.e., if we simply make use of the broad meaning of "world" to use it as a synonym for "dimension" or "realm". However, it is entirely possible and coherent to believe that there is only "one world" in a more profound sense, but that this one world has aspects that one may distinguish from each other by talking about dimensions and realms.
Finally, as far as Christian theology is concerned, it is terribly bad theology to insist that there is exactly and only one world. In fact, this simply isn't Christian by any stretch of imagination. Quite apart from any "next world" of eschatology, the utter minimum a Christian must admit is that there is on one hand the world, and on the other hand God, and that however closely related they may be, they are distinct entities. So if we wish to call God a Spirit or supernatural, and why would we not, then it is a sine qua non for Christian theology to assume a separate "spirit dimension" or "supernatural realm" at least in this sense.
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
It's not a purely material world. There are ideas, culture, language and more and these things have an effect on each other. A message from one person to another can have a physical effect. A joke told out there may make my keyboard wet with coffee. Ghosts, though, inhabit an in-between world. They are supposed to have direct physical effects - temperature drop, say.
You apparently think that you have made a distinction here. However, you did not. The not-purely-material (according to you) ideation of the joke had a direct physical effect: the control of muscles that made you spit your coffee. You need to argue why this is distinct from a ghost making temperatures drop. The materialist will of course simply answer that neither joke nor ideation thereof have any real existence apart from being instantiated in matter, providing a clean distinction from the ghost. But you apparently are not a materialist. Hence you must say how the incorporeal aspect of you is distinct from an incorporeal ghost, such that one can have direct physical effects and the other can't.
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
It could be that the paranormal exists but deliberately stays out of clear view. That gives you a seriously weird world to live in, a Trueman show version of reality.
Homing pigeons apparently have magnetoception, i.e., they can sense the earth's magnetic field and use that for orienting themselves. This may seem weird to us, but it would seem natural to the pigeons. Until the invention of the compass, none of the observations with our senses would have picked up what they are seeing. Insects use the polarisation of light to navigate. Until we invented polarising filters, this kind of observation was closed to us as well. Finally, there are indications that some people are born as tetrachromates, having four photopigments rather than three, and that they may have a richer colour experience in consequence (being able to see actual colour differences that trichromates can't perceive). There is hence nothing inherently illogical with the assumption that people have senses out of reach to current science and technology, and furthermore with the assumption that only some people have access to these sensations. Whether that is likely is a different question, but ghosts certainly could stay out of clear view of cameras and "untalented" sceptics, without implying any kind of "Trueman show" conspiracy.
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
It could be that the whole paranormal including ghosts is better understood as a human and cultural phenomenon. That is, that some people will sometimes see things, and that what they see will depend on where they live, what ideas they've grown up with, what stories they heard as a child, and what they expect. We would expect that the experiences people report will be shaped by their culture. They will be experiencing a cultural phenomenon, but as if it were an external event.
Exactly the same could be said if there was a real perception, however. Nobody doubts that the perception of sound is real, yet what music sounds well is culturally shaped. Nobody doubts the reality of visual input, yet what one makes of modern Western art depends on one's upbringing. The question what kinds of smell are acceptable still varies strongly across the world, and certainly has varied in our own cultural history - yet all of them are detected by the nose. All that is required for the perception of ghosts to become culturally shaped is that this perception has a minimum of complexity to it. Since the actual reports are not simple, we would expect to get variations depending on time, place and person, with perhaps some "core phenomenon" lurking in an ill-defined intersection of the various reports.
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
I remember a friend, a scientist and a sceptic, telling a group of us about a haunted house he had lived in, and the many people who went there and were so scared they couldn't stay for the whole night. It was very impressive and credible evidence. On another occasion he talked about it again, and admitted that he had never seen or heard a single suspicious thing, and that those who had stayed, all university students, had probably all been well aware of the house's reputation, and in many cases quite deliberately primed with a few good creepy ghost stories. He said he was sure it could all be explained by suggestion, expectation and the atmosphere of a very remote and old house.
This is all quite possible, of course. However, it is also possible that this scientist and sceptic simply happens to be "deaf and blind" to any kind of "supernatural" sensations. Indeed, perhaps he is a sceptic (and even a scientist) precisely because of this supernatural handicap. There certainly is no a priori reason to dismiss the evidence of many people against the evidence of one person, just because the former may have been "primed and biased". For what do we know of the priming and biases of that single person?
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
I've never seen a ghost or experienced anything paranormal. Nor have any of the CCTV cameras around, or people making YouTube videos. One of our shipmates once said he worked in a concentration camp and spent the night there on occasion and never saw a thing. The stories we do get are almost always very 'soft' in terms of facts, and often told in ways that show the person telling them has a propensity to believe in the supernatural, that is they describe things that I wouldn't assume to be paranormal, but which they do. The evidence just isn't there, for me.
All of this is entirely compatible with some different sense being involved here, which is generally quite weak and/or irregularly used, and gets "projected" into the regular senses in the final percept. A kind of synesthesia, if you will, perhaps caused at brain level by the lack of a well-formed dedicated sensory area dealing with this kind of input. It would also be quite natural for people who have more such experiences to attribute more phenomena in the world to this category. Perhaps they explain too much by this, but perhaps also you "explain away" too much.
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
Similarly I think, though I lack the knowledge and evidence to prove it, that the ghosts people see are really examples of what their culture believes a ghost to be, and that the ghosts people in other cultures see are therefore different. Which means that there is no natural phenomenon behind it.
Well, but there precisely could be a common "supernatural" phenomenon behind it, which is sufficiently complex to allow cultural loading. This certainly would be helped if the phenomenon is also difficult and/or rare to perceive, which is what is typically reported. Basically, what you make of some kind of presence at the edge of detection of some uncommon perceptual mode is easily modified by cultural expectations.
Having said all this, I do not have any supernatural experiences to report myself, at least not of the direct "ghostly encounter" kind. I have however had meditative / contemplative experiences that ultimately turned me into a theist. (I'm not sure that I could share these if I wanted to, but I don't want to anyway...) So I'm open to the idea of valid perceptions that go beyond the regular senses. This does not necessarily make "ghosts" real, but it makes the possibility that some of these observations are based on something real more plausible - for me.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
The oddest experience I know of is that of my aunt, who woke (or perhaps was still asleep and dreaming, but felt at the time like she woke) one night in October 1942 to see her grandfather sitting beside her bed. He didn't say anything and she reported later a feeling of unease rather than the sense of comfort she normally had in her grandfather's presence. When she really woke in the morning and mentioned this to her family (she was 12 at the time) they reminded her that it was impossible for her grandfather to be there as they all knew he was on a ship at sea at the time.
Only a couple of days later, wartime communications being what they were, did they find out that on the same night she claimed to have seen her grandfather, his ship was torpedoed and sunk, and her grandfather was among those killed.
What strikes me as very odd about this story is that the belief that the dead "check in" with living family members as they're dying someplace far away is very common here in Newfoundland and many families would have stories similar to my aunt's....
I've never been the sort of person who has these experiences, and would prefer not to, but I'm under the impression that this sort of thing happens quite often and in Britain also is widely believed in.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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