Ship of Fools: Purgatory: Ghosts

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Thread: Purgatory: Ghosts

Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

Posted

It's weird (says she sceptically) how often ghostly sightings involve clothes.

It seems to me, you need some clear idea of what a ghost might be. So, for example, if you believe it to be a lost soul - you might not expect it to be visible. Or perhaps you think it to be the dead person's soul reprojecting its own image of itself into the world ?

You also really need to be able to exclude quite long list of well recognised phenomena:

Hypnompic phenomena (which are commoner in children)
Sleep paralysis - descriptions of which have been widely linked to being hag-ridden, visited by an incubus or succubus and alien sexual abuse (i.e. written descriptions of said encounters all fall into a similar pattern)
Abnormal mental perceptions, not just present in people with a diagnosis of mental illness - approximately 1 in 4 people report hearing a voice (auditory hallucination) at some point during their lives & any extreme emotional state or exhaustion, including grief, raises the chance of transitory psychotic symptoms. For example, people who are severely depressed may experience nihilistic hallucinations / delusions such as blood dripping off the walls - that sound exactly like something out of a horror movie and are mood congruent.
PTSD, historically ghosts were often of people who had died violently - and this or its aftermath had been observed. I imagine flashback could be a lot like hearing or seeing a ghost.
Environmental effects, there are reasonably well documented impacts of sub-auditory threshold low frequency noise "infrasound"
Confabulation, human memory is not a documentary record - there are predictable changes over time in what and how people remember. This article contains a good discussion of some of the available evidence - from, for an academic paper, a reasonably sympathetic perspective.
Flashbulb memory, when you believe yourself to have an immediate vivid memory of an important such as the Kennedy assassination, or an important personal event, is not as accurate as you perceive it to be. The emotional importance makes you think you recall exactly, whereas in fact the memory changes over time. For example, people have reported they know exactly where the were at the moment they heard of JFK's death - listening to such and such a sports match on the radio, and when checked it turns out the fixture was not on the radio at that time.

This list is not exhaustive - but it comes back to the idea that if you are going to make extraordinary claims, to be credible, you need to have a reasonable go at excluding ordinary causes.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005 | IP: Logged

Walsingham Tilde
Apprentice
# 17311

Posted

Back to smelling a rat:
Yes, rats were our immediate thought. Years ago my wife had lived in an old farmhouse with dead rats under the floorboards: vile, but nothing supernatural!

I quite like (in a grisly sort of way) hatless’ theory that some rotting matter was being pushed along by another creature until the decaying process was complete, at which point the smell ceased; but that this should coincide with the house blessing is rather pushing it. Neither would it explain how that limited and specific area of smell could climb stairs.

What made the experience so sinister was the accompanying feeling of dread: a strong sense that something was implicitly wrong. OK, a sceptic could say that we are hard-wired to equate the smell of decomposition with death and danger - and so we shrink from it.

But widening the point: what does make a phenomenon “supernatural”? Can “hard evidence” ever prove (rather than disprove) such an event?

Posts: 4 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Sep 2012 | IP: Logged

Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

Posted

That's got to depend on your theory of the supernatural surely ?

If you assert that, say, a poltergiest flings a knife across your kitchen at 15:00 precisely everyday Friday, it ought to be possible to film that. And to test out a series of alternative theories as to why it is happening - i.e. does it only happen when people are in the house, what happens if you remove all the knives, what happens if everything in the knife drawer is plastic etc.

Were we definitely to show that the knife gets thrown, and also when you are not there, and also when plastic, and all the drawers open in sequence then get banged shut when there are no knives in the kitchen - then the thing you would probably do next is bring in every kind of scanner known to beast and see if you could image what was happening.

Because you are assuming something is able to exert physical force in the material world and therefore must have some kind of energy in the physical world.

Someone appearing to you as they were dying sounds like some kind of telepathic link - and would call for a very different kind of investigation. But one could only investigate if it is believed that the phenomena are happening in the physical world - if you are being vouchsafed a vision of an angel then you are straight back to the world of faith.

Anything seems supernatural until you can explain it, imagine God turned out to be the emergent consciousness of the complexity that is the universe - that somehow we were able to verify that was where all religious experience and action came from - would God still be supernatural at that point ?

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005 | IP: Logged

Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768

Posted

I onced had an odd experience with a doorbell, observed by a collection of physicists who could not explain it.
I was an early adopter of wireless doorbells, and had a model which had the option of the receiver being powered from the mains. This was necessary as it devoured batteries with an unbelievable hunger.
After I had had it for a while, it started to ring when there was no-one at the door.
I checked out to make sure that there was no-one about playing Knock-down-ginger, but no-one seemd to be around. The nearest similar bell was several hundred yards down the road (I knew after collecting charity envelopes).
Assuming that there was a fault, or perhaps, an effect from someone's electrical equipment, I put a note by the bellpush, asking people to press twice.
And after a brief while, the fault started to ring twice, too.
The evening with the physicists, it began to ring about the hour, each hour. It did not ring when disconnected from the mains. I did not have any equipment with a timer or a thermostat which could have produced a signal through the mains. there was a car in a neighbouring road which had broken down. I asked the repair guy if there had been hourly attempts to restart it, but there had not.
And, during the evening, as we discussed, without changing the note, upping the number of rings, the number of rings at each event started to increase.
The next day I took it back to the shop for a refund. The shop had discontinued the model.
But it does stick in my mind, and that of the friend who was the contact for the physicists, that there had begun to be evidence of cunning about it.

[ 16. September 2012, 15:22: Message edited by: Penny S ]

Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009 | IP: Logged

Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

Posted

quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
I think, though I lack the knowledge and evidence to prove it, that the ghosts people see are really examples of what their culture believes a ghost to be, and that the ghosts people in other cultures see are therefore different.

Which means that there is no natural phenomenon behind it. That's not to say that it isn't important or significant, but that it needs to be approached in different terms.

This is roughly where I've got to in my thinking - especially the last part.

I think that a lot of what is reported about ghosts resembles cultural constructs - but this view should not be misinterpreted as pooh-poohing such reports.

Cultural constructs have power and have, if you wish, a life of their own (regular readers may note the similarity with my working theory of territorial spirits for which I am indebted to Tom Marshall). These constructs affect our feelings, reactions, and behaviours in ways that can be far-reaching, and that we don't fully understand.

I think problems start when we try to apply a remedy from one set of cultural constructs to problems framed within a different set of constructs. [ETA: The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul could be described as exploring the comic aspects when cultural constructs collide]. That's one of the reasons the Bethel-style deliverance ministry alarms me. It's cultural dissonance or something.

I would be tempted to explain Trudy Scrumptious' relative's experience in terms of some sort of 'hive mind' interconsciousness than in terms of someone coming back from the dead.

Saying a prayer of exorcism over a mobile bad smell? I'm not sure. If it worked, great - I think the danger would be to generalise too much or think that one had a recipe for dealing with such problems.

[ 16. September 2012, 16:25: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002 | IP: Logged

ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716

Posted

Just based on the beliefs of most people at most times, and that it conflicts with nothing in my understanding of Christian theology, I have no problem with the existence of ghosts (nor with a variety of peculiar sapient whatsits that are, in theory, neither human nor angel/demon; they would still be created by God, whether fallen or not, of course, like everything else in Creation). I think some experiences of ghosts (and the like) are definitely not really ghosts (as we see on shows like Ghost Hunters, in which they point out structural or mechanical factors that wholly account for the described experiences); some are probably paranormal experiences which need not be ghosts in the conventional sense (imprinted emotions or memories in a location which are like a psychic "photograph" without anyone still hanging about, etc.); and some are probably, indeed, sapient discarnate humans (or other things, depending).

I've had some experiences, particularly with my own beloved Daddy Vern (well, in the ghost-related category; there are other experiences in other categories as well), but not many, and I don't like to make assumptions. I trust that God is taking care of him, and I believe that he is always with me in whatever way is most appropriate for his situation.

I'm OK with not being wholly sure of any given experience being pinned down as absolutely, definitively supernatural. If I encounter what I think is some sort of ghost in future, I'll certainly pray for them apart from anything else.

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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001 | IP: Logged

Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551

Posted

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:

quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
I was sleeping in a church hall, and woke up during the first night. I felt what I can only describe as a heavy presence in the room - so heavy I was finding it difficult to breathe. I prayed until I fell asleep but it was an uncomfortable experience. The team prayed in the room the next day and I slept better for the rest of the week.
It sounds to me like you experienced an episode of sleep paralysis:
quote:
Folk belief in Newfoundland, South Carolina and Georgia describe the negative figure of the hag who leaves her physical body at night, and sits on the chest of her victim. The victim usually wakes with a feeling of terror, has difficulty breathing because of a perceived heavy invisible weight on his or her chest, and is unable to move
One cause of this can be anxiety - quite understandable at the start of a mission and sleeping in a strange location, especially a church hall (yes I could tell some stories. I remember the one in Paris where the chap in the next sleeping bag along turned in saying "I suppose this is where we get to play 'meet the rodent'").

I'm glad this condition went away after prayer - but that's as likely to be because you were reassured as anything else.

quote:
During the week a couple of local young ladies started to come to our meeting. They were pleasant and engaging, but always wore black. During the week they came to faith. Explaining their spritiual journey they related how they had held seances in the church hall.
I assume you are intending to imply a connection between this and your experience - although you don't specifically say so.

Once again we come back to the problem of reporting. I presume that you heard these ladies' testimony first hand, but even if you did, how can you be sure they were telling the truth? And even if they were telling the truth, what would lead you to believe that their actions somehow explained what you experienced?

Yes I saw the two incidents as connected, yes I heard the ladies first hand, no I didn't see any reason to disbelieve them. I know what stress related sleeplessness feels like, having a highly stressful job.... Your alternative explanation is interesting, but less convincing to me personally.

Didn't see any hags - or rats. Some friends of mine doing mission in India used to say you really had to get worried when the rats all ran away. Usually an indication that there was a python in the room

[Ultra confused]

Posts: 950 | From: Virtually anywhere | Registered: Jul 2011 | IP: Logged

Truman White
Shipmate
# 17290

Posted

quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
[QUOTE]. If one wishes to have an extraordinary claim accepted by another person one should present extraordinary proof.

I think Daffyd answered this argument on a previous thread .

Posts: 476 | Registered: Aug 2012 | IP: Logged

HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614

Posted

quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:

quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
[QUOTE]. If one wishes to have an extraordinary claim accepted by another person one should present extraordinary proof.
I think Daffyd answered this argument on a previous thread .

I don't

Daffyd takes issue with the use of the word extraordinary - the need for proof is not addressed.

Human beings are not born with a belief in a supernatural world – they have to be taught it. Teaching should include evidence that what is being taught is valid or it should be taught as hypothesis. The more unlikely a hypothesis the greater the need for validation. Unlikeliness(?) can be graded with reference to evidence.

Believing it will rain tomorrow (here in Middle England) is currently fairly rational based upon weather records/forecasts.

Believing that there is an unknowable dimension to our universe which requires liberal applications of my time, effort and money so that other humans may enjoy power, wealth and status at my expense seems, to me, to need a more rigorous standard of validation (but I’d settle for the same scientific method that validates doctor’s prescriptions).

As Carl Sagan is claimed to have said “Skeptical scrutiny is the means, in both science and religion, by which deep thoughts can be winnowed from deep nonsense.”

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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)

Posts: 894 | From: Middle England | Registered: Apr 2010 | IP: Logged

Noxious
Apprentice
# 17318

Posted

I think the sleep paralysis explanation while compelling is not complete enough in itself. I've had a few dreams of either being in another place unable to move and also waking dreams where I've been in the darkness of my own room and paralysed. But on all those occasions the panic associated with the paralysis is in response to and secondary to a powerfully realised external threat. Mostly this would be manifest as being literally pinned down in the bed by something but occasionally it would be the perception of some entity being nearby and approaching. It's not a perception/feeling I've had at any stage in the real world, a combination of concentrated "unclean" and evil that literally turns the stomach - and very much personified, not at all vague.

The times this has happened I've managed to pray, once only managing to slur out a 'Jesus...' with great effort when I felt my jaw was being pressed into the pillow. And every time in an instant the presence left. Despite being fairly sober as far as supernatural manifestations are concerned, I've little doubt that these have been of demonic origin, not something I'd interpret as "ghost" activity. And not least because the paralysis/evil dreams stopped since I've backslidden from a more active practicing faith. If the combination was a natural, if infrequent, human experience I would have expected to still be having those dreams.

(And now I'm off to bed [Paranoid]

)

Posts: 6 | Registered: Sep 2012 | IP: Logged

Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

Posted

I don't know if you have come across Dr Susan Blackmore's research on this phenomenon. It can be experimentally induced, and she actually underwent the procedure and describes her experiences in that link.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005 | IP: Logged

saysay

Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645

Posted

quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
Human beings are not born with a belief in a supernatural world – they have to be taught it.

I don't think that's true. I've known a lot of kids who are born with a gift of seeing things in the spirit realm; we just usually train them out of it with our belief in strict scientific materialism.

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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."

Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004 | IP: Logged

Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379

Posted

quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
Human beings are not born with a belief in a supernatural world – they have to be taught it.

Or experience it untaught/unsought.

Paul on Damascus road. Various other classic saints startled by an unsought encounter with a personality they didn't believe in. Occasional modern day folks similarly startled.

On the whole I'd say kids live closer than adults to awareness of this realm, are more likely taught by adults not to "see" it.

Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008 | IP: Logged

Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

Posted

I would love photos to be put on a high shelf where people have 'out of body' experiences. If they see the photos then we will have scientific proof.

[Big Grin]

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Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008 | IP: Logged

Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322

Posted

Tangent alert
This isn't about a claimed paranormal experience and so strictly is outside the OP. However, that doesn't seem to have bothered a lot of other shipmates who have posted their opinions rather than experiences on this thread.

Why does it have to be assumed that if there are what we call paranormal experiences, there is a separate spiritual realm, one that is quite different from the natural one that we can see and touch? Why shouldn't the invisible be part of the same universe as we are in, and not a different one? We can't see the ultra-violet or infra-red. We can't hear sound outside the range of our ears. But we accept they are all there because scientists tell us so.

Why then do we not accept that what we might call the spiritual is there, just because clergy and others tell us it is?

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008 | IP: Logged

passer

Indigo
# 13329

Posted

quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
I've known a lot of kids who are born with a gift of seeing things in the spirit realm

This sounds very interesting. I would love to hear more about it. How many of them, how the gift manifested, how did they share these experiences with adults, how they came to lose it, what happened to them then, what their memories of it are - that sort of thing.

Posts: 1289 | From: Sheffield | Registered: Jan 2008 | IP: Logged

angelfish
Shipmate
# 8884

Posted

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I would love photos to be put on a high shelf where people have 'out of body' experiences. If they see the photos then we will have scientific proof.

Have you read this ?

Not sure whether the results are out yet.

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"As God is my witness, I WILL kick Bishop Brennan up the arse!"

Posts: 1017 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2004 | IP: Logged

saysay

Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645

Posted

quote:
Originally posted by passer:

quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
I've known a lot of kids who are born with a gift of seeing things in the spirit realm
This sounds very interesting. I would love to hear more about it. How many of them, how the gift manifested, how did they share these experiences with adults, how they came to lose it, what happened to them then, what their memories of it are - that sort of thing.

I don't know exactly. In my experience most kids (under 5) have some sort of sense of something else, something other than the strictly material. They just don't know how to talk about it. Of course, kids that age don't necessarily know how to talk about the material world, either - they simply don't have the vocabulary for it and adults fill it in by providing or correcting words when they can figure out what their kids are trying to say.

But a lot of adults don't have the vocabulary either (because they don't believe in those things and/or have lost the ability to see them). IME this doesn't just happen with spiritual/supernatural things, but with other intuitions - ie, the kid knows that their parents are upset or angry about something, but instead of reassuring them that they are upset about something that happened at work not something the kid did or that they are angry with each other because adults sometimes argue and become angry they simply deny that the kid's intuition is correct. So the kid learns not to trust it and not to talk about it (there's no point in telling someone you see a ghost if they respond that ghosts don't exist). When it comes to the supernatural/spiritual mostly parents don't know what the hell the kid is talking about and just ignore it, although occasionally you'll run across someone either with a strong enough gift or a powerful enough ghost who wants to get a message through that people have to acknowledge that something weird is going on.

Most of the kids I've known grow out of having this skill around age 5 - I don't know if that's a developmental thing or the result of the fact that in the US that's when we send our kids to school and even if parents tend to be tolerant of the kids talking about it, teachers are not. Most of the people I've known who have retained some ability in this area had teachers who were tolerant - even if they didn't think the kid was talking about something real they chalked it up to them having an active imagination and didn't discourage them. The ones who get trained out of it generally don't remember having the gift at all (most people I've encountered don't remember a lot that happened before they were five). The ones who don't grow up to be adults who are generally thought a bit weird.

Does that answer your question? (Not really sure what you're looking for here)

--------------------
"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."

Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004 | IP: Logged

Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379

Posted

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I would love photos to be put on a high shelf where people have 'out of body' experiences. If they see the photos then we will have scientific proof.

Not unusual to read of people who "die" on the operating table and have an out of body experience and later tell what they saw in the operating room and in the waiting room -- who was doing what -- that the NDE person had no other way of knowing but the details were correct.

One problem with your proposed experiment is, why would the person having an out of body experience be interested (during that out-of-body time) in looking at those photos? Even if interested enough while fully conscious to agree to the experiment, priorities may be quite different during the experience.

Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008 | IP: Logged

Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322

Posted

quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I would love photos to be put on a high shelf where people have 'out of body' experiences. If they see the photos then we will have scientific proof.

Not unusual to read of people who "die" on the operating table and have an out of body experience and later tell what they saw in the operating room and in the waiting room -- who was doing what -- that the NDE person had no other way of knowing but the details were correct.

One problem with your proposed experiment is, why would the person having an out of body experience be interested (during that out-of-body time) in looking at those photos? Even if interested enough while fully conscious to agree to the experiment, priorities may be quite different during the experience.

I don't think there are many people who would be willing to be very nearly killed for experimental purposes, so as to find out whether they could check what pictures were on a shelf. I certainly wouldn't.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008 | IP: Logged

saysay

Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645

Posted

Yeah, the problem with these sorts of experiences is that they're by definition non-replicable, meaning there's never going to be scientific proof for those who require that sort of thing.

Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004 | IP: Logged

Truman White
Shipmate
# 17290

Posted

quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:

quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:

quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
[QUOTE]. If one wishes to have an extraordinary claim accepted by another person one should present extraordinary proof.
I think Daffyd answered this argument on a previous thread .
I don't

Daffyd takes issue with the use of the word extraordinary - the need for proof is not addressed.

Human beings are not born with a belief in a supernatural world – they have to be taught it. Teaching should include evidence that what is being taught is valid or it should be taught as hypothesis. The more unlikely a hypothesis the greater the need for validation. Unlikeliness(?) can be graded with reference to evidence."

You're arguing in a circle, and avoiding Daffyd's point. You're saying that an "unlikely hypothesis" is one that requires "validation." But since you've defined neither an "unlikely hypothesis" nor what would constitute an appropriate "validation" the statement is vacuous. Hume's original proposition popularly expressed as "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" is disproved by probability theory. The claim that the winning lottery number came up on the Euro draw is an extraordinary claim given the unlikeliness of the event. But you don't need extraordinary evidence to validate the claim.

Daffyd's point is well made. What should be considered likely or unlikely, ordinary or extraordinary, will depend on the background beliefs of the people concerned. If your a priori assumption is that the material world is all that exists, then any reference to a non-material or supernatural reality will be extraordinary. But this is based not on evidence, but on a philosophical world view - metaphysical naturalism.

Posts: 476 | Registered: Aug 2012 | IP: Logged

The5thMary
Shipmate
# 12953

Posted

quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Nope. And I never will. There again I didn't believe in Irritable Bowel Syndrome either ...

Sigh. Irritable Bowel Syndrome... oh, how I wish this disease was just a made-up fairy tale!

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God gave me my face but She let me pick my nose.

Posts: 3451 | From: Tacoma, WA USA | Registered: Aug 2007 | IP: Logged

Michael Reilly
Apprentice
# 16025

Posted

What Are Ghosts?

-- from "Everything You Ever Wanted to Know about Heaven", by Dr. Peter Kreeft (Ignatius Press, 1990).

"Without our action or invitation, the dead often do appear to the living. There is enormous evidence of 'ghosts' in all cultures .... We can distinguish three kinds of ghosts, I believe. First, the most familiar kind: the sad ones, the wispy ones. They seem to be working out some unfinished earthly business, or suffering some purgatorial purification until released from their earthly business. These ghosts would seem to be the ones who just barely made it to Purgatory, who feel little or no joy yet and who need to learn many painful lessons about their past life on earth."

"Second, there are malicious and deceptive spirits - and since they are_deceptive, they hardly ever appear malicious. These are probably the ones who respond to conjurings at seances. They probably come from Hell. Even the chance_of that happening should be sufficient to terrify away all temptations to necromancy."

"Third, there are bright, happy spirits of dead friends and family, especially spouses, who appear unbidden, at God's will, not ours, with messages of hope and love. They seem to come from Heaven. Unlike the purgatorial ghosts who come back primarily for their own sakes, these bright spirits come back for the sake of us the living, to tell us all is well. They are aped by evil spirits who say the same, who speak 'peace, peace, when there is no peace'. But the deception works only one way: the fake can deceive by appearing genuine, but the genuine never deceives by appearing fake. Heavenly spirits always convince us that they are genuinely good. Even the bright spirits appear ghostlike to us because a ghost of any type is one whose substance does not belong in or come from this world. In Heaven these spirits are not ghosts but real, solid and substantial because they are at home there: One can't be a ghost in one's own country."

"That there are all three kinds of ghosts is enormously likely. Even taking into account our penchant to deceive and be deceived, our credulity and fakery, there remain so many trustworthy accounts of all three types of ghosts - trustworthy by every ordinary empirical and psychological standard - that only a dogmatic prejudice against them could prevent us from believing they exist. As Chesterton says, 'We believe an old apple woman when she says she ate an apple; but when she says she saw a ghost, we say 'But she's only an old apple woman.' A most undemocratic and unscientific prejudice."

-- from "Everything You Ever Wanted to Know about Heaven", by Dr. Peter Kreeft (Ignatius Press, 1990).

quote:

Food for thought.

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"The joys and the hopes, the griefs and the anxieties of the people of this age, especially those who are poor or in any way afflicted, these are the joys and hopes, the griefs and anxieties of the followers of Christ" - Gaudium et Spes

Posts: 6 | Registered: Nov 2010 | IP: Logged

HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614

Posted

Look heah, now, I’ve got the works of all the old mastahs-the gweat ahchaeologists of the past. I wigh them against each other-balance the disagweements-analyse the conflicting statements-decide which is pwobably cowwect-and come to a conclusion. That is the scientific method. At least”-patronizingly-“as I see it. How insuffewably cwude it would be to go to Ahcturus, oah to Sol, foah instance, and blundah about, when the old mastahs have covahed the gwound so much moah effectively than we could possibly hope to do”
Lord Dorwin – Foundation by Isaac Asimov

"If you tell people that an invisible man in the sky created the universe and everything in it then they will believe it without question BUT tell them that the paint is wet and they have to touch it...just to make sure!"
the late George Carlin

If I claim that my impression is valid evidence, if I claim that my preferred tradition is valid evidence, if I claim that something someone wrote/told me is valid evidence and if I claim that not being able to disprove my theory is valid evidence then, for me, nothing is true – because, if I so choose, nothing is untrue – it all just is.

And that is silly.

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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)

Posts: 894 | From: Middle England | Registered: Apr 2010 | IP: Logged

passer

Indigo
# 13329

Posted

quote:
Originally posted by saysay:

quote:
Originally posted by passer:

quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
I've known a lot of kids who are born with a gift of seeing things in the spirit realm
This sounds very interesting. I would love to hear more about it. How many of them, how the gift manifested, how did they share these experiences with adults, how they came to lose it, what happened to them then, what their memories of it are - that sort of thing.
I don't know exactly. In my experience most kids (under 5) have some sort of sense of something else, something other than the strictly material. They just don't know how to talk about it. Of course, kids that age don't necessarily know how to talk about the material world, either - they simply don't have the vocabulary for it and adults fill it in by providing or correcting words when they can figure out what their kids are trying to say.

I don’t see how your observation of children’s behaviour makes the leap to “the spirit realm”. If they don’t know how to talk about it, how do you know it is what you think it is? I’m assuming that you don’t use your own powers of adult suggestion to provide words for them?

quote:
But a lot of adults don't have the vocabulary either (because they don't believe in those things and/or have lost the ability to see them).

It’s only your personal opinion that we have lost the ability to see something we can’t understand or define. I can’t know that I don’t know about something I don’t know about in the first place.

quote:
IME this doesn't just happen with spiritual/supernatural things, but with other intuitions - ie, the kid knows that their parents are upset or angry about something, but instead of reassuring them that they are upset about something that happened at work not something the kid did or that they are angry with each other because adults sometimes argue and become angry they simply deny that the kid's intuition is correct.

This is slightly different, as you’re referring to behaviour within our understanding. In such cases I don’t think the child’s intuition is being impugned. It’s social intercourse, and this is how the child learns it, through the parents. As long as the parents don’t transfer responsibility for the upset to the child the child learns that sometimes it’s best not to get involved.

quote:
So the kid learns not to trust it and not to talk about it (there's no point in telling someone you see a ghost if they respond that ghosts don't exist). When it comes to the supernatural/spiritual mostly parents don't know what the hell the kid is talking about and just ignore it, although occasionally you'll run across someone either with a strong enough gift or a powerful enough ghost who wants to get a message through that people have to acknowledge that something weird is going on.

You’re back to the spirit world here and I think you’re extrapolating too far. I believe that in the example you use the child is more likely to learn the opposite – to trust the feeling that there’s stuff going on between people significant in his life that he should not try to get involved in. This doesn’t relate to abstract things that the child might perceive that aren’t relationship based. Because children don’t talk about ghosts you can’t just deduce that they choose not to; perhaps it’s because they don’t see them.

quote:
Most of the kids I've known grow out of having this skill around age 5 - I don't know if that's a developmental thing or the result of the fact that in the US that's when we send our kids to school and even if parents tend to be tolerant of the kids talking about it, teachers are not.

I don’t understand how you can determine the personal development of very young children who are not within your own family circle but are within another family circle. You’re positing opinions based on personal suppositions about third and fourth parties that are unverifiable.

quote:
Most of the people I've known who have retained some ability in this area had teachers who were tolerant - even if they didn't think the kid was talking about something real they chalked it up to them having an active imagination and didn't discourage them.

So you know people who have retained this ability to see into the spirit world?

quote:
The ones who get trained out of it generally don't remember having the gift at all (most people I've encountered don't remember a lot that happened before they were five).

Maybe they don’t remember having said gift because they didn’t have it.

quote:
The ones who don't grow up to be adults who are generally thought a bit weird.

I see.

quote:
Does that answer your question? (Not really sure what you're looking for here)

Not really. I can see that you broke my query down and addressed the individual points, but what you’ve written is strong on generalisation and supposition and weak on detail. However, thanks for the response. I can accept that you believe it to be the case, but I am unconvinced. Sometimes people just want to believe stuff so hard, in order to satisfy some inner need, that they find ways of convincing themselves. It's allowed.

I've never experienced a ghost, though my wife has. She was on a back (once servant's) staircase of a Victorian building when she was working alone in the building in the small hours. She was editing radio programmes at the time and on her way to the record library to fetch something. She was aware that there was a bit of a history of a fleeting figure being seen in the building at night, so kind of knew what it was when she unlocked a door to the staircase and was physically pushed and kept back as something went past her. She didn't see anything. She didn't find it frightening, just surprising, and is completely convinced of it.

Posts: 1289 | From: Sheffield | Registered: Jan 2008 | IP: Logged

saysay

Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645

Posted

quote:
Originally posted by passer:
I don’t see how your observation of children’s behaviour makes the leap to “the spirit realm”. If they don’t know how to talk about it, how do you know it is what you think it is? I’m assuming that you don’t use your own powers of adult suggestion to provide words for them?

No, I don't use my powers of adult suggestion, I use my adult vocabulary, in the same way I use my adult vocabulary to provide my niece with the word for 'dog'.

quote:
It’s only your personal opinion that we have lost the ability to see something.

My bad. I thought it was clear that I was talking about some people; I do in fact know people who have lost the ability to see these things. It isn't actually only my personal opinion, although it certainly is a belief that not everyone shares.

quote:
This is slightly different, as you’re referring to behaviour within our understanding. In such cases I don’t think the child’s intuition is being impugned. It’s social intercourse, and this is how the child learns it, through the parents. As long as the parents don’t transfer responsibility for the upset to the child the child learns that sometimes it’s best not to get involved.

Either your understanding of child development is vastly different from mine or you've completely missed my point. Apparently you don't understand it when someone makes an analogy to an experience another person might have had in order to explain an experience they might not have had either.

You're right, it's social intercourse, and this is how the child learns it. Sometimes the child learns that even if its parents are yelling and throwing things, they are not actually angry, and they shouldn't say that they are. In less extreme cases, sometimes the child learns not to develop their intuition.

quote:
You’re back to the spirit world here and I think you’re extrapolating too far. I believe that in the example you use the child is more likely to learn the opposite – to trust the feeling that there’s stuff going on between people significant in his life that he should not try to get involved in. This doesn’t relate to abstract things that the child might perceive that aren’t relationship based. Because children don’t talk about ghosts you can’t just deduce that they choose not to; perhaps it’s because they don’t see them.

Who is deducing that because children don't talk about ghosts it's because they choose not to? I was talking about kids who talk about ghosts, are told ghosts don't exist, and demonstrate to others that something is communicating with them by telling others true information concerning, for example, their recent death. And I still think you're wrong that a child learns to trust the feeling that there's something significant going on between the people significant in his life that he shouldn't get involved in it when they completely deny having certain feelings. A more extreme and abusive form of this behavior is called gaslighting.

quote:
I don’t understand how you can determine the personal development of very young children who are not within your own family circle but are within another family circle. You’re positing opinions based on personal suppositions about third and fourth parties that are unverifiable.

No, they're unprovable and undemonstrable to a third unrelated party who has never talked to any of these people (you).

quote:
So you know people who have retained this ability to see into the spirit world?

Yes.

quote:
Maybe they don’t remember having said gift because they didn’t have it.

Nobody ever said everyone had this gift. I was talking about people that I know. As I think I said upthread, I know two brothers. We once saw a ghost together - the ghost of one of their elderly relatives in another country who told us he had died and gave us specific information to tell their father. I don't remember this, but I've been told their father laughed it off until later when he received a phone call that the relative had in fact died. One brother now has no sense of anything supernatural or spiritual, while the other retains a sense that there's sometimes some other presence in the room.

quote:

quote:
Does that answer your question? (Not really sure what you're looking for here)
Not really. I can see that you broke my query down and addressed the individual points, but what you’ve written is strong on generalisation and supposition and weak on detail. However, thanks for the response. I can accept that you believe it to be the case, but I am unconvinced. Sometimes people just want to believe stuff so hard, in order to satisfy some inner need, that they find ways of convincing themselves. It's allowed.

Sorry, I didn't realize you wanted convincing. I could have saved us both some time, as IME it's impossible to convince someone who hasn't experienced something of its existence. Although who the hell would want to believe in the spiritual world or G-d if they didn't have to? It's terrifying.

--------------------
"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."

Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004 | IP: Logged

Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379

Posted

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I would love photos to be put on a high shelf where people have 'out of body' experiences. If they see the photos then we will have scientific proof.
One problem with your proposed experiment is, why would the person having an out of body experience be interested (during that out-of-body time) in looking at those photos? Even if interested enough while fully conscious to agree to the experiment, priorities may be quite different during the experience.
I don't think there are many people who would be willing to be very nearly killed for experimental purposes, so as to find out whether they could check what pictures were on a shelf. I certainly wouldn't.

Yes, it is hard to envision someone agreeing to be put into a "temporary" brain-dead condition just to do the photo test -- not all people who get that near death recover!

Also hard to envision a family member saying to a loved one about to go in for risky surgery, "dear, if things go bad and you have an out of body experience, I'll be holding photos in the waiting room and I want you to come look at the photos, and then when (if) you return to your body tell me what they are photos of, so we can prove NDE out of body experiences are real or fake." Usually family members of people about to be surgeried upon have wholly other concerns dominating their minds.

I would love to hear a practical non-dangerous proposal for an experiment about whether NDE out-of-body experiences could be real. Kinda hard to take seriously claims that experimental proof is needed if no experiment is (ethically) possible.

And of course if someone did correctly identify the photos in an experiment, skeptics would say he was a lucky guesser or it was a fraudulent set-up or -- all the usual reasons for clinging to determined disbelief that the not-quite-natural could be real.

(But as I said, I'm under the impression people who report NDE out of body experiences have different interests during that time than solving this-world minor curiosities.)

Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008 | IP: Logged

Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119

Posted

quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Not unusual to read of people who "die" on the operating table and have an out of body experience

Something similar is sometimes reported by victims of torture and sex abuse.

Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011 | IP: Logged

angelfish
Shipmate
# 8884

Posted

The article I linked to describes an experiment carried out various hospital emergency rooms, where pictures have been placed on high shelves, visible only from the ceilong. No ethical problem - just wait until a person suffers cardiac arrest in the normal course of events, and then when they have been resucitated and safely tucked into bed, ask them if they had an out of body experience, and did they see the pictures. Although, I agree that people having such experiences might feel they have better things to do than contribute to this debabte by looking at some (presumably by now very dusty) pictures.

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"As God is my witness, I WILL kick Bishop Brennan up the arse!"

Posts: 1017 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2004 | IP: Logged

Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322

Posted

quote:
Originally posted by angelfish:
The article I linked to ...

Unfortunately, when I followed that link, all I got was a site of advertising listings, including one called asianbeauties.com!

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008 | IP: Logged

Gregory's Girl
Shipmate
# 16275

Posted

Some very interesting points here that lead me to try and coalesce my thoughts on this topic.
My mother had an NDE. When she was 5 a dog jumped up and knocked her over on the beach. No malice but: big dog + small child = fell over and knocked her head, whether on a stone or merely the hard wet sand is unknown, but serious concussion was the result. She was taken home and a doctor called.
From the ceiling of the bedroom she was pleased to note that her mother had put her in her favourite nightie but was somewhat shocked to see that her mother was standing while the doctor sat on the edge of the bed examining her (in her experience a gentleman always stood for a lady). She also noticed that the doctor seemed to be wearing a shirt that was too tight for him as, from her vantage point on the ceiling, she could see that the back of his neck was red and raw where his collar had rubbed it. For years she just thought of it as an odd memory while wondering what she was doing on the ceiling. It was only as adult she told a priest of her aquaintance about it who commented: "that was a Near Death Experience, you silly woman!"

A generation earlier, my grandmother dreamed of her father shortly after he had died. In life he was an Edwardian gentleman who would never have been seen without the stiff high collar that such gentlemen wore. However, in her dream he was collarless and seemed much less formal. He was pleased to see her but said apologetically: "I must go, there's so much to learn!"
I always felt that the episode in the Bible where the Witch of Endor summons the dead prophet Samuel and he exclaims angrily: "why have you brought me up?" fits theologically (!) with my granmother's dream: whatever God is doing with the souls of the dead it is bound to be far more interesting than our earth-bound concerns, and so Samuel was irritated to be dragged away from it for a spot of hand-holding with the down-in-the-dumps Saul!
This drags my brain along to the conclusion that contacting the dead is a bit like tapping on a classroom window. Much as I love, care and think about the Greglet who started school last week, it would be wrong, though technically possible, for me to stand outside his classroom window waving, saying "hello darling! Are you OK?" I must get on with my life and trust the teachers to look after him. Although I trust that, should a family emergency arise, the teacher might call him out of school for me. By the same token, my gut feeling is that it is "wrong" (in that it denotes a lack of faith in God's ability to look after our loved ones) to try to contact the dead but the dead might contact us due their own or our crises.

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Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering.
There's a crack, a crack in everything.
That's how the light gets in. L.Cohen

Posts: 61 | From: Surrey | Registered: Mar 2011 | IP: Logged

Noxious
Apprentice
# 17318

Posted

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
I don't know if you have come across Dr Susan Blackmore's research on this phenomenon. It can be experimentally induced, and she actually underwent the procedure and describes her experiences in that link.

That's a neutral observation IMHO. It is evidence which satisfies the usual experimental scientific criteria, fair enough. It can be interpreted as suggesting our brains have a natural propensity for unpredictable and intense experiences due to mundane electromagnetic external influences which we may subsequently dress up in whichever mystic cultural clothes we prefer - as the author indicates. An alternative explanation is that the procedure is stimulating that area of the brain which is responsible for perception of supernature. The fact that this stimulation is hard work to provoke experimentally would further suggest the perception in most people at least is weak, which concurs with the comparatively unusual experience of supernatural perception.

Also, if it's not a sense that we use all that often, it's little surprise that it would be most clearly experienced during sleep/darkness/quiet/childhood/advanced old age or illness when other loads on the sensory system are impaired or reduced.

Posts: 6 | Registered: Sep 2012 | IP: Logged

Flossymole
Apprentice
# 17339

Posted

Back to ghosts – a personal experience. This happened in about 1968 in a 'New Town' council house, probably built in the late 1940s/early 1950s. I was 23 years old, spending the weekend with parents-in-law. It was Sunday morning, just before dinner (i.e. lunch) time. Everybody (mother-in-law, my husband, his two younger brothers and little sister, and me) was in the kitchen/dining-room, milling about getting the dinner ready and laying the table. Father-in-law did a Sunday morning shift at the factory and wasn't home yet. I splashed gravy on my blouse, went upstairs and changed it. There was no mirror in our bedroom so I went to check my appearance in my mother-in-law's dressing table mirror (being a vain little so-and-so) knowing that there was no-one there and mother-in-law wouldn't mind. As I pushed the door open (it was ajar) I suddenly heard breathing – very loud and heavy – like a large man either ill or drunk, coming from the middle of the room where the bed was. Without thinking I said 'Oh, sorry' and started to close the door again. As I did so I overcome by a feeling of absolute terror. I looked in the mirror (a big triple dressing-table mirror on the right hand wall, next to the door). I could see almost the whole room in it. There was nobody there, although I didn't stop to think about that – I legged it downstairs as fast as I could. At the bottom of the stairs I tried to pull myself together and think. I went into the kitchen and counted everybody. They were all there. No-one could have got up or downstairs past me. I asked my husband where his dad was – 'Not back from work, he'll be here any minute' was the reply. I went to the front window and he was coming along the road in his overalls.

Possible explanations. Middle brother playing a trick with a tape recorder? But how did he work that whilst seeing to the potatoes, and where would he have got hold of such a thing? They weren't a well-off family. Noise carrying from next-door? These were good solid houses and although it was a terrace you didn't get noises from next-door. In the end I decided it was a hallucination and thought I would see the doctor if anything similar happened again. It didn't, but I couldn't get over a great dislike of that room.

There is a sequel to this. About twenty years later, when the family were living elsewhere, my father- and mother-in-law and husband's youngest brother (now in his twenties) came to stay with us. Someone casually mentioned the house at XXXX Road and brother-in-law immediately said 'I hated that house, it was haunted'.
This was like opening a dam – everybody started talking at once. It seemed that everyone except my husband and his middle brother had had strange experiences in that house, but hadn't said anything for fear of frightening people or being thought barmy. Father-in-law's was the most striking. The little girl, who slept in that room with her parents, had woken one evening, crying. She said the lady who came out of the wardrobe and went out of the door had touched her. (the wardrobe was a big double one built into the wall, an original feature of all those houses). Her parents told her she'd been dreaming, but father-in-law said he knew she hadn't – he'd seen the woman himself. Apparently she crept out of the wardrobe, round the bottom of the bed and out of the door.

I wonder whether three of us could have experienced the same event from different perspectives – two from the point of view of somebody in bed and one from the point of view of the woman making her get-away. Perhaps it was some sort of replay rather than ghostly presences. I don't know of any tragedy there that could have given rise to this – but I've never done any research. I've concealed the address of the house to protect the peace of mind of the present occupants. I'd be glad to hear privately from anyone who thinks they recognise the place.

I'm afraid this is a long post – I wanted to deal with the usual questions that arise in advance.

Posts: 43 | From: Derbyshire UK | Registered: Sep 2012 | IP: Logged

saysay

Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645

Posted

quote:
Originally posted by Gregory's Girl:
By the same token, my gut feeling is that it is "wrong" (in that it denotes a lack of faith in God's ability to look after our loved ones) to try to contact the dead but the dead might contact us due their own or our crises.

That's what I think too.

--------------------
"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."

Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004 | IP: Logged

leo
Shipmate
# 1458

Posted

quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
One problem with your proposed experiment is, why would the person having an out of body experience be interested (during that out-of-body time) in looking at those photos? Even if interested enough while fully conscious to agree to the experiment, priorities may be quite different during the experience.

They'd look at them, not out of interest but, because the first stage of a NDE is confusion and trying to work out what is happening, which involves looking carefully at everything to see what is happening.

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001 | IP: Logged

Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379

Posted

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
why would the person having an out of body experience be interested (during that out-of-body time) in looking at those photos? Even if interested enough while fully conscious to agree to the experiment, priorities may be quite different during the experience.
They'd look at them, not out of interest but, because the first stage of a NDE is confusion and trying to work out what is happening, which involves looking carefully at everything to see what is happening.

Interesting, I have not heard that, although I expect reactions vary. More often I hear of peace. Freedom from pain. Wanting to reassure loved ones. And not really wanting to go back to the body.

One preacher pointed out no one in the Bible who is reported to have been resurrected by Jesus is reported to have thanked Jesus for that. Their friends are grateful but we don't hear from the resurrected one. OK, just an "argument" (or observation) from silence, but an intriguing silence.

Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008 | IP: Logged

angelfish
Shipmate
# 8884

Posted

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:
Originally posted by angelfish:
The article I linked to ...
Unfortunately, when I followed that link, all I got was a site of advertising listings, including one called asianbeauties.com!

Mwahaha! My dastardly plan to get shipmates hooked into my Thai brides business is working. It should of course have been a newspaper article describing the experiment.

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"As God is my witness, I WILL kick Bishop Brennan up the arse!"

Posts: 1017 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2004 | IP: Logged

leo
Shipmate
# 1458

Posted

quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
why would the person having an out of body experience be interested (during that out-of-body time) in looking at those photos? Even if interested enough while fully conscious to agree to the experiment, priorities may be quite different during the experience.
They'd look at them, not out of interest but, because the first stage of a NDE is confusion and trying to work out what is happening, which involves looking carefully at everything to see what is happening.
Interesting, I have not heard that, although I expect reactions vary. More often I hear of peace. Freedom from pain. Wanting to reassure loved ones. And not really wanting to go back to the body.

Reports of NDEs suggest several stages: first awareness of being out of the body = looking down on the body e.g. seeing oneself on the road after a car accident and watching people try to resuscitate you; moving down corridors and being surprised that no one greets you back; visiting loved ones and getting no response; seeing one's whole life as in a movie but going backwards; moving up a tunnel towards light

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001 | IP: Logged

Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649

Posted

Two young people I knew died unexpectedly. I believe that both came and touched me before they went on to wherever they were going. The first was what I can only describe as a dreadful icy finger tapping on me to wake me up. I knew who it was, and told him to go toward the light (I must have heard that somewhere, I didn't know at the time about Christ being the light). The second was a warm embrace. A number of people have told me of 'seeing' grandparents soon after death, but I haven't heard of anyone else being touched.

Close relatives claim to have experienced a ghost. It used to frequently flush the toilet, pull the bedclothes off, close doors behind them, move things on shelves, and climb the metal stairs outside one step at a time and knock on the front door. They never knew whether it came in when they opened the door. They didn't see it, and were not afraid of it. They assumed it was someone who used to live there and didn't want to leave once he had died.

The way I reconcile this to my theology is by assuming that the ghosts are the essence of people who were not living close to God in life and do not seek God out in death. They remain clinging onto the world that they don't want to leave. They may be afraid of the light, they may ignore it, perhaps they don't see it. The implications are that people do immediately move on after death, that they're raised up straight away. This ties in with descriptions of NDE's.

I found interesting the BBC2 programme 'Dead Good JOB' last night at 9pm. It describes the work of funeral directors over various faiths (and none). The Hindu director took great care to let the deceased know that he was dead, and encouraged his departure from the world.

I wonder whether the deceased attend their own funeral.

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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10

Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011 | IP: Logged

ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715

Posted

Another experience to relate .... in the 1980's I was the manager of a branch of a well known UK Building Society in a bedfordshire market town.

It was a 2 story office and had once been a hotel. The upstairs was only used for storgae for past records of our and other branches. From time to time I had to retrieve documents from the store. The main room had a heavy iron door always closed on exit. When next I visted, I always found it open. It needed a good push to open it: I had the only key to the upstairs on my key ring.

Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009 | IP: Logged

Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

Posted

quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
Close relatives claim to have experienced a ghost. It used to frequently flush the toilet, pull the bedclothes off, close doors behind them, move things on shelves, and climb the metal stairs outside one step at a time and knock on the front door. They never knew whether it came in when they opened the door. They didn't see it, and were not afraid of it.

This sounds like a poltergeist. I am not committing myself on whether there are such things as ghosts and poltergeists.

Moo

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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.

Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001 | IP: Logged

Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649

Posted

quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
This sounds like a poltergeist. I am not committing myself on whether there are such things as ghosts and poltergeists.

Moo

I guess unless we ourselves have an experience, we may remain non-committal. Much like religion?

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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10

Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011 | IP: Logged

Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

Posted

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Another experience to relate .... in the 1980's I was the manager of a branch of a well known UK Building Society in a bedfordshire market town.

It was a 2 story office and had once been a hotel. The upstairs was only used for storgae for past records of our and other branches. From time to time I had to retrieve documents from the store. The main room had a heavy iron door always closed on exit. When next I visted, I always found it open. It needed a good push to open it: I had the only key to the upstairs on my key ring.

"And that, your honour, is why we cannot produce the documents required that would evidence the plaintiff's claim for compensation against our mis-selling"

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001 | IP: Logged

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