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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Is the UK really 'multicultural'
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trouty
Shipmate
# 13497
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pegasus:
[Cross post. This is to Saul the Apostle, obviously]
No, it's not a matter of opinion.
Multiculturalism means encouraging diversity of ethnicity, religion and, uh, culture, and the belief that different groups can happily co-exist within a single country.
O
Multiculturalism can also mean the opportunity to get mugged in 148 different languages.
Posts: 205 | From: Somewhere out there | Registered: Mar 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
We still haven't defined what we mean by being British and "doing as the British do". Until that's nailed down, this is going nowhere.
We haven't and we won't, but I suspect yours is a rhetorical question. Wherever you are, some folk do and others don't: the more people you have the greater the variety. I doubt there are many activities that can be classified as either British or not British as so many things we do have come from overseas and so many others have been exported (Cricket is a fine example: I believe the majority of the world's cricketers live and play in India).
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
That in my mind speaks of (imposed) 'multiculturalism' and it was very much imposed on us,
By whom? And what about Anglo-culturalism being imposed on India, Africa and sundry other places? It would be just deserts, except that we were in a position of power in those places; the poor Bangladeshi immigrant very much not.
[ 04. August 2010, 17:48: Message edited by: Angloid ]
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
That in my mind speaks of (imposed) 'multiculturalism' and it was very much imposed on us,
By whom? And what about Anglo-culturalism being imposed on India, Africa and sundry other places? It would be just deserts, except that we were in a position of power in those places; the poor Bangladeshi immigrant very much not.
This ''imposed multi culturalism'' was a social engineering stunt/experiment recently pulled off by messrs. Blair/Brown. It of course pre-dated both as we needed immigrants to do the shit jobs we didn't want to do.
We had a thriving colonial thrust into Africa/Asia/America for hundreds of years and we are fair game for the ''empire in reverse'' concept. After all, say for example, Germany has baulked at Turkish 'Gastarbeiten' haven't they? But Germany has basically kept its 'white population' intact.
Until 60 years ago, the largest ethnic minority in our islands was the Jewish population. Now we have a veritable united nations and my central point is not that we haven't reaped what we've sown ( a colonial 'reinvasion by the 'subject' peoples)we clearly have; but that the British Isles, and more specifically, England is a small place. So I say no more immigration please; thats my point. Its 'full', we have no 'western frontier' that these teeming masses can go and settle; its better they develop their own countries.
I am ''racist'', in the sense that I believe that heredity can impinge on matters (like ability and IQ) far more than we care to accept. I do not hold certain nations in high regard for the way they are very corrupt and highly inept. Having said that, we of course are far from paragons of virtue here in England, and my argument is not that we should ship, say all Africans back to Africa, but more lets say 'enough is enough' we live on a small island and we haven't the resource or land to accept 000s of yet more immigrants. Where will it end?
Saul
[ 04. August 2010, 18:15: Message edited by: Saul the Apostle ]
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"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
Posts: 1772 | From: unsure | Registered: Jun 2008
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RadicalWhig
Shipmate
# 13190
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
We still haven't defined what we mean by being British and "doing as the British do". Until that's nailed down, this is going nowhere.
We haven't and we won't, but I suspect yours is a rhetorical question. Wherever you are, some folk do and others don't: the more people you have the greater the variety. I doubt there are many activities that can be classified as either British or not British as so many things we do have come from overseas and so many others have been exported (Cricket is a fine example: I believe the majority of the world's cricketers live and play in India).
I think that's pretty much my point. How then can you expect people to "act British" or "do as the British do", if we cannot even define the boundaries of acceptability?
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Radical Whiggery for Beginners: "Trampling on the Common Prayer Book, talking against the Scriptures, commending Commonwealths, justifying the murder of King Charles I, railing against priests in general." (Sir Arthur Charlett on John Toland, 1695)
Posts: 3193 | From: Scotland | Registered: Nov 2007
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
I am racist, in the sense that I believe that herediatry factors impinge on matters (like ability) far more than we care to accept. I do not hold certain nations in high regard for the way they are very corrupt and highly inept; having said that, we of course are far from paragons of virtue and my argument is not that we should ship all Africans back to Africa, but more lets say 'enough is enough' we live on a small island and we haven't the resource to accept 000s of yer more immigrants.
This is sad but not surprising. European nations are inherently xenophobic, it seems to me. The equation between "England" and "Englishness", where the latter is equated with both culture and genetics, is totally unlike anything in the Americas, where we are all immigrants and many if not most of us acknowledge it.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
I am racist, in the sense that I believe that herediatry factors impinge on matters (like ability) far more than we care to accept. I do not hold certain nations in high regard for the way they are very corrupt and highly inept; having said that, we of course are far from paragons of virtue and my argument is not that we should ship all Africans back to Africa, but more lets say 'enough is enough' we live on a small island and we haven't the resource to accept 000s of yer more immigrants.
This is sad but not surprising. European nations are inherently xenophobic, it seems to me. The equation between "England" and "Englishness", where the latter is equated with both culture and genetics, is totally unlike anything in the Americas, where we are all immigrants and many if not most of us acknowledge it.
But aren't most Amercans WASPS? Or are they now the minority?
I knwo the Arizona laws hit a raw nerve didn't they?
But I go back to size and space. Look at most Amercan states, by comparison England is tiny. You guys can sensibly develop a large and rich country; if you ever come to London, you'll see what I'm banging on about!
Saul
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"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
Posts: 1772 | From: unsure | Registered: Jun 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
You totally ignored what I said. That's okay.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
We still haven't defined what we mean by being British and "doing as the British do". Until that's nailed down, this is going nowhere.
We haven't and we won't, but I suspect yours is a rhetorical question. Wherever you are, some folk do and others don't: the more people you have the greater the variety. I doubt there are many activities that can be classified as either British or not British as so many things we do have come from overseas and so many others have been exported (Cricket is a fine example: I believe the majority of the world's cricketers live and play in India).
I think that's pretty much my point. How then can you expect people to "act British" or "do as the British do", if we cannot even define the boundaries of acceptability?
OK, you want boundaries? My mate Rizwan who is a lawyer, speaks and dresses the same way I do, plays on my cricket team and is generally as pleasant an Englishman as I can think of? He's fine by me. Someone like Abu Hamza who calls for Sharia law in Britain, insists on speaking urdu and wearing traditional arabic dress, and refuses to spend any time with any "kafirs"? Much less so.
It's really more about integration and being prepared to live and work alongside people than it is about any partcular belief. That's why I hate the enclaves, and the enclaves are why I think multiculturalism doesn't work.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
<snip>
OK, you want boundaries? My mate Rizwan who is a lawyer, speaks and dresses the same way I do, plays on my cricket team and is generally as pleasant an Englishman as I can think of? He's fine by me. Someone like Abu Hamza who calls for Sharia law in Britain, insists on speaking urdu and wearing traditional arabic dress, and refuses to spend any time with any "kafirs"? Much less so.
It's really more about integration and being prepared to live and work alongside people than it is about any partcular belief. That's why I hate the enclaves, and the enclaves are why I think multiculturalism doesn't work.
I've not met Rizwan but Raja who works with me supports Man United, plays cricket (almost as badly as I ever did), dresses like me and I have to say his manners are better than most of the others in our office. Leila and Rad are Muslims, she is active in and outside 'her' community helping to get people integrated, while he is a builder. The difference is that Rizwan, Raja, Leila and Rad are all real people not news stories like Abu Hamza. For every Abu Hamza there must be at least a thousand getting on with their lives quite uncontroversially.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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RadicalWhig
Shipmate
# 13190
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
OK, you want boundaries?
No, I don't want boundaries, I was just trying to work out what the insistence on "acting British" would actually amount to in practice, considering how the "British" are a very diverse lot.
I do think that some sort of "test" or standard needs to be applied - but think that "civic comity" - willingness to live and work amongst others without causing a nuisance or demanding special treatment - is a better basis than "cultural conformity", which implies a closed culture and a very narrow view of what "acting British" means. The demands of "civic comity", of course, apply both to the recent immigrant and to the long-established indigenous inhabitants.
[ 04. August 2010, 23:48: Message edited by: RadicalWhig ]
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Radical Whiggery for Beginners: "Trampling on the Common Prayer Book, talking against the Scriptures, commending Commonwealths, justifying the murder of King Charles I, railing against priests in general." (Sir Arthur Charlett on John Toland, 1695)
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londonrob
Apprentice
# 14746
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Posted
totally agreeing with on the centric - thing, only would say city centric rather than london centric
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Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
We still haven't defined what we mean by being British and "doing as the British do". Until that's nailed down, this is going nowhere.
We haven't and we won't, but I suspect yours is a rhetorical question. Wherever you are, some folk do and others don't: the more people you have the greater the variety. I doubt there are many activities that can be classified as either British or not British as so many things we do have come from overseas and so many others have been exported (Cricket is a fine example: I believe the majority of the world's cricketers live and play in India).
I think that's pretty much my point. How then can you expect people to "act British" or "do as the British do", if we cannot even define the boundaries of acceptability?
OK, you want boundaries? My mate Rizwan who is a lawyer, speaks and dresses the same way I do, plays on my cricket team and is generally as pleasant an Englishman as I can think of? He's fine by me. Someone like Abu Hamza who calls for Sharia law in Britain, insists on speaking urdu and wearing traditional arabic dress, and refuses to spend any time with any "kafirs"? Much less so.
It's really more about integration and being prepared to live and work alongside people than it is about any partcular belief. That's why I hate the enclaves, and the enclaves are why I think multiculturalism doesn't work.
The famous ''cricket test'' was put forward by Norman Tebbit some years ago as a test of ''Englishness''. Which team do you support when a Test match is in full swing?
I am a ''racist'', in the sense that I believe there ARE differences between races, unfashionable today of course, but if you look into it; blacks, whites and asians all perform 'to type' on IQ tests and in other behavioural ways; there are clear and unambiguous differences, if you care to look at not be bamboozled by the liberal elites propaganda. Thats not the whole story but it says something, at least to me; race differences do exist; so i am racist in that sense and proud to be so, not an ostrich who won't accept that there are clear differences.
But I don't think that those differences mean we need to be at others throats. For example, some (a small number of the total by the way) Muslims, are imbued with an exclusivist and fascist bent; they cannot stand Israel and they cannot stand ''the West''. Abu Hamza was mentioned; he is obnoxious because he resides like a parasite here, instead of a cave in the tribal lands of the NW frontier. I hope he gets extradited to the USA, who will no doubt sentence him to the rest of his natural.
Most of the terrorism in the UK since 2001 has been ''home grown'' by native born Asians (usually from Pakistan) of the Islamic faith. In % terms they account for a small amount of the UK Pakistani, population, however Special Branch and MI5/6 spend inordinate time om this phenomenon of Asian males, who are Muslim.
Multiculturalism is overblown and overhyped. If you live in London there is no escaping it, indeed quite a few folk I know have left London because the city they knew and loved has become this multi cultural ''experiment''. Multiculturalism may not lead to ''rivers of blood'' as Enoch Powell famously said in 1968, but it has given a substantial trickle of blood and uneccesary conflict in what was once a broadly 'united' nation.
If you want to see what we'll as a nation look like in say 50 years time, look at how the USA has developed since the 1960s - in many parts blacks/ whites live ''alongside'' each other, but uneasily and often blacks/whites live apart - even in these days of a black president. Hispanics are 'tolerated' and underneath the chimera of acceptance Arizona shows a different perception of the ''multi cultural'' society.
Saul
[ 05. August 2010, 06:02: Message edited by: Saul the Apostle ]
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"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
Posts: 1772 | From: unsure | Registered: Jun 2008
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by Saul the ApostleI am a ''racist'', in the sense that I believe there ARE differences between races, unfashionable today of course, but if you look into it; blacks, whites and asians all perform 'to type' on IQ tests and in other behavioural ways; there are clear and unambiguous differences, if you care to look at not be bamboozled by the liberal elites propaganda. Thats not the whole story but it says something, at least to me; race differences do exist; so i am racist in that sense and proud to be so, not an ostrich who won't accept that there are clear differences.
Has it ever occurred to you that, for example, IQ tests are in and of themselves, culturally biased. Just google "cultural bias in IQ tests". Most of the studies out there relate to African Americans, but they nevertheless put paid to the idea that intelligence tests test only intelligence. If you are merely saying that tall, muscular Afro-Caribbeans can run the 100 m faster than san from the Kalahari desert, then I suppose you could say that there are racial differences. But your reference to behavioural patterns suggest this is not that of which you are thinking. There is absolutely no reliable evidence to suggest that the behavioural patterns of any group are determined in any way that is not cultural.
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
That in my mind speaks of (imposed) 'multiculturalism' and it was very much imposed on us,
By whom? And what about Anglo-culturalism being imposed on India, Africa and sundry other places?
That, IIRC, was the argument used in The Buddha of Suburbia ("Why the hell should we adapt? The bloody British never did when they were in India!") and the lesson obviously lost there was that ultimately the British had to leave...
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
We still haven't defined what we mean by being British and "doing as the British do". Until that's nailed down, this is going nowhere.
I don't think we can on that sort of macro level, hence my suggestion that we talk instead about integration with the 'host' culture.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
OK, you want boundaries?
No, I don't want boundaries, I was just trying to work out what the insistence on "acting British" would actually amount to in practice, considering how the "British" are a very diverse lot.
I do think that some sort of "test" or standard needs to be applied - but think that "civic comity" - willingness to live and work amongst others without causing a nuisance or demanding special treatment - is a better basis than "cultural conformity"...
"Civic comity" sounds like a very good principle. I think to go further runs the risk of splitting hairs, and worse, coming to the unnecessary conclusion that as Britishness can't be defined, there is no such thing.
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
You totally ignored what I said. That's okay.
Given the way that American whites have treated non-whites down the years, it is quite clearly arguable that differing attitudes to immigration now are to do with space, not genetics.
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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
Until 60 years ago, the largest ethnic minority in our islands was the Jewish population. Now we have a veritable united nations and my central point is not that we haven't reaped what we've sown ( a colonial 'reinvasion by the 'subject' peoples)we clearly have; but that the British Isles, and more specifically, England is a small place. So I say no more immigration please; thats my point. Its 'full', we have no 'western frontier' that these teeming masses can go and settle; its better they develop their own countries.
Saul
There so many gaping holes in your argument as to wonder if you haven't deliberately closed your eyes to any information that doesn't reinforce your opinions.
I've just been listening to Radio 4's programme on old court cases from the Old Bailey. It finished today, but the picture it painted of 18th and 19th century London life was one which was full of immigrants: Africans, Hugenots, Italians, Irish...
Sixty years ago would be 1950. What about the Poles and the French? Earlier the Russians? Docks had thriving communities of African and Asian labourers and sailors. Glasgow, amongst other cities had a big Italian enclave: hint - Paulo Nutini is actually Scottish.
So - the idea of a 'whitebread' UK is simply rubbish. Ever since the Romans (Italian again) stationed auxilliaries from Africa and the Middle East in Britian, it's been rubbish.
Secondly, this island is 'small'. Bollocks. I live in the middle of a big city - the biggest between Leeds and Glasgow - and I look out of my window and I can see fields and woods, and by the simple effort of walking to the end of my street, I can see mountains. About 10% of England is 'built on': of that 1.3% is housing. In Scotland, less than 3% is built on.
We are not 'full'. We are far from full. And those thousands of immigrants are, as far as I'm concerned, welcome.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I've not met Rizwan but Raja who works with me supports Man United, plays cricket (almost as badly as I ever did), dresses like me and I have to say his manners are better than most of the others in our office. Leila and Rad are Muslims, she is active in and outside 'her' community helping to get people integrated, while he is a builder. The difference is that Rizwan, Raja, Leila and Rad are all real people not news stories like Abu Hamza. For every Abu Hamza there must be at least a thousand getting on with their lives quite uncontroversially.
And good for them - they're all clearly not the kind of immigrant I'm against.
You make it sound like Abu Hamza was just made up by a sub-editor one evening. Are you trying to say that no such person exists, or that he's the only one?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
Until 60 years ago, the largest ethnic minority in our islands was the Jewish population.
Never heard of the Irish?
The notion of "imposed multiculturalism" is bollocks. No-one is making you, or anyone else, speak Punjabi (or English), wear a turban (or a trilby), listen to reggae music (or morris dancing), drink wine (or rum), eat curry (or fish & chips), go to the Gudwara (or church), or do any of the other originally non-British things people might choose to do. What has been imposed on you? The whole idea is nonsense.
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
...if you look into it; blacks, whites and asians all perform 'to type' on IQ tests and in other behavioural ways; there are clear and unambiguous differences...
No, there aren't actually. From what you said I suspect that you know effectively nothing about population genetics at all. That's all right - its OK to be ignorant if you want to be, you could hardly be a racist of the kind you are if you weren't. Just don't try to impose your very un-British pseudo-scientific racism on the rest of us please. Or learn a little about the subject first.
quote:
Multiculturalism is overblown and overhyped. If you live in London there is no escaping it, indeed quite a few folk I know have left London because the city they knew and loved has become this multi cultural ''experiment''. Multiculturalism may not lead to ''rivers of blood'' as Enoch Powell famously said in 1968, but it has given a substantial trickle of blood and uneccesary conflict in what was once a broadly 'united' nation.
So that's why London is the safest and least violent really large city in the whole world outside Japan? And why its less violent than it was a hundred years ago (and much, much less violent than two hundred years ago)? Because the racists left? A novel theory.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
I do think that some sort of "test" or standard needs to be applied - but think that "civic comity" - willingness to live and work amongst others without causing a nuisance or demanding special treatment - is a better basis than "cultural conformity", which implies a closed culture and a very narrow view of what "acting British" means.
You know what? I can live with that. One culture which adapts to accomodate new arrivals while retaining the best of its previous self is absolutely dandy. The huge popularity of non-native food styles such as indian, chinese, caribbean, american and even italian is just one example of this being done.
What I object to - all I have ever objected to - is new arrivals locking themselves away in their enclaves and refusing to either adapt or be accomodated. They may not be causing a nuisance, but they're not exactly showing a willingness to live and work amongst others are they?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
I do think that some sort of "test" or standard needs to be applied - but think that "civic comity" - willingness to live and work amongst others without causing a nuisance or demanding special treatment - is a better basis than "cultural conformity", which implies a closed culture and a very narrow view of what "acting British" means.
You know what? I can live with that.
It's a shame that so many white British people would fail this hands down...
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
Isn't it just?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
I do think that some sort of "test" or standard needs to be applied - but think that "civic comity" - willingness to live and work amongst others without causing a nuisance or demanding special treatment - is a better basis than "cultural conformity", which implies a closed culture and a very narrow view of what "acting British" means.
You know what? I can live with that. One culture which adapts to accomodate new arrivals while retaining the best of its previous self is absolutely dandy. The huge popularity of non-native food styles such as indian, chinese, caribbean, american and even italian is just one example of this being done.
What I object to - all I have ever objected to - is new arrivals locking themselves away in their enclaves and refusing to either adapt or be accomodated. They may not be causing a nuisance, but they're not exactly showing a willingness to live and work amongst others are they?
Agreed 100%. And even the food is at times a product of cross-fertilisation: chicken tikka massala isn't indigenous to south Asia and spag bol isn't really Italian.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Isn't it just?
The obvious corollary to this is: why should we hold immigrants to a higher standard than our own citizens?
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
We shouldn't.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
quote:
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Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
I do think that some sort of "test" or standard needs to be applied - but think that "civic comity" - willingness to live and work amongst others without causing a nuisance or demanding special treatment - is a better basis than "cultural conformity", which implies a closed culture and a very narrow view of what "acting British" means.
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You know what? I can live with that. One culture which adapts to accomodate new arrivals while retaining the best of its previous self is absolutely dandy. The huge popularity of non-native food styles such as indian, chinese, caribbean, american and even italian is just one example of this being done.
What I object to - all I have ever objected to - is new arrivals locking themselves away in their enclaves and refusing to either adapt or be accomodated. They may not be causing a nuisance, but they're not exactly showing a willingness to live and work amongst others are they?
I'm an Irish immigrant to the UK and like many immigrants I'm here for slightly accidental reasons, and will quite possiblly return home at some point. If I stay here I'll never give up my Irish citizenship or pass the cricket test (hell, as an Irish person I think the whole concept of cricket is too weird for words). Nor will I ever quite get used to having a monarchy or being pathologically reserved or thinking that 'Europe' stops at Calais (consolingly a minority of natives agree with me on these things). But I would never for a moment want to retreat in some kind of Irish ghetto or bring up any childrenI have in some kind of ersatz Irishy bubble. The issue isn't so much integration (which is and should be a two way thing to some extent anyway) but interaction. Non one expects first generation immigrants to identify or integrate fully with non-immigrant society. The problem is that in some cases second or third or possibly even fourth generation immigrants aren't interacting. To take an example, a female friend of my sig others used to live in an almost completely Muslim area of Birmingham and got to know her female neighbour (UK born and possibly even 3rd generation) reasonably well. The neighbour spoke only basic English, had been married off at fifteen to a much older man (she still wasn't sure where babies came from after having had two of them) and never went further then her sister's house a ten minute bus ride away. A minority of people of immigrant origin have succeeded in constructing ethnic bubbles in the UK and don't seem willing to interact with the culture outside those bubbles.
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Isn't it just?
The obvious corollary to this is: why should we hold immigrants to a higher standard than our own citizens?
If you can show me anywhere where I've said that native citizens who don't want to live alongside immigrants are in the right, I'll be shocked.
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Hail Gallaxhar
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
posted by marvin
quote:
What I object to - all I have ever objected to - is new arrivals locking themselves away in their enclaves and refusing to either adapt or be accomodated. They may not be causing a nuisance, but they're not exactly showing a willingness to live and work amongst others are they?
Do you object to the old timers who have been here since time immemorial who lock themselves away in white ghettos, eat fish n chips at the weekends, whose friends are all white, who only speak english, who take Cassandra and Timothy to horse riding and cricket practice every Sunday morning, etc, etc, etc? They may not be a nuisance, but they're hardly making an effort to reach out beyond their own self imposed confines.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
<snip>
You make it sound like Abu Hamza was just made up by a sub-editor one evening. Are you trying to say that no such person exists, or that he's the only one?
No Abu Hamza isn't a tabloid fabrication, but when a Muslim bogeyman is needed he is our Osama Bin Laden. I'm suggesting that there is a <number with a good few zeroes>:1 ratio between ordinary decent people and his kind. I can't point to anyone I know or have known from North Africa or the Middle East who hasn't been polite and reasonable in person.
As for the Tebbit Test, I support the side playing Australia: What does that make me?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
posted by marvin
quote:
What I object to - all I have ever objected to - is new arrivals locking themselves away in their enclaves and refusing to either adapt or be accomodated. They may not be causing a nuisance, but they're not exactly showing a willingness to live and work amongst others are they?
Do you object to the old timers who have been here since time immemorial who lock themselves away in white ghettos, eat fish n chips at the weekends, whose friends are all white, who only speak english, who take Cassandra and Timothy to horse riding and cricket practice every Sunday morning, etc, etc, etc? They may not be a nuisance, but they're hardly making an effort to reach out beyond their own self imposed confines.
I don't think the comparison works at all. Much of the UK (including the non-descript burb I live in) is largely 'a white ghetto'. See the statistics in the OP if you don't believe me. According to the 2001 census over 90% of the UK population is white and 85% are 'white British'. You can't blame people for having been born in Wales or Cornwall or small town Oxfordshire instead of Bradford or Peckham. If you live in much of the UK you probably don't have non-white friends, because there aren't many non-whites to be friends with. And I'm not sure what the problem is with people in England only speaking English.
PS I have (for the first time in my life) ethnically profiled my friendship group and 50/50 'white other' and 'white British', but has about the proportion of non-white people you'd expect given the proportion of non-white people in the UK (a fifthish). I've never ethically catgeorised my friends before and find the whole thing rather depressing.
[ 05. August 2010, 11:37: Message edited by: Yerevan ]
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Isn't it just?
The obvious corollary to this is: why should we hold immigrants to a higher standard than our own citizens?
If you can show me anywhere where I've said that native citizens who don't want to live alongside immigrants are in the right, I'll be shocked.
You haven't said that, but all this <they> must integrate and <they> must adapt to <our> culture (which is defined exactly nowhere and can't be defined!), which is at the heart of the monoculturalists argument puts all the expectation of change on immigrants. That's a high standard.
In asking them to adapt, while the native inhabitants stand still, taking the benefits immigrants bring, is a long way from fair and reasonable. Integration is a two-way street, on which traffic going in both directions has to give way from time to time.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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Yerevan
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# 10383
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Posted
PS Horrible typos...'ethically' should read 'ethnically' for a start. Argh
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Matt Black
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# 2210
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Posted
Nor am I
[cp with last two posts]
[ 05. August 2010, 11:43: Message edited by: Matt Black ]
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
quote:
You haven't said that, but all this <they> must integrate and <they> must adapt to <our> culture (which is defined exactly nowhere and can't be defined!), which is at the heart of the monoculturalists argument puts all the expectation of change on immigrants. That's a high standard. In asking them to adapt, while the native inhabitants stand still, taking the benefits immigrants bring, is a long way from fair and reasonable. Integration is a two-way street, on which traffic going in both directions has to give way from time to time.
Though it would be fair to say that a minority on BOTH sides aren't interesting in that two way traffic? And that in some cases aspects of one culture may be 'better' or 'worse' than other, an idea that sometimes seems to be taboo in these debates. I prefer the Indian attitude to older relatives to ours, but I also like our attitude to women a hell of alot better than Afghanistan's. I'm monocultural in the sense that I think everyone in a particular place is (ideally) part of a big conversation that results in a messy, complex but to some extent shared (or at least mutually intelligible) culture of that place. Everyone's free to disagree with where the conversation is going, but you can't opt out of it altogether and live in a bubble.
[ 05. August 2010, 11:52: Message edited by: Yerevan ]
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
quote:
You can't blame people for having been born in Wales or Cornwall or small town Oxfordshire instead of Bradford or Peckham. If you live in much of the UK you probably don't have non-white friends, because there aren't many non-whites to be friends with. And I'm not sure what the problem is with people in England only speaking English.
No, thats part of the point I was trying to make. You can't blame non-english speaking immigrants with only one language for being ghettoised. They will naturally gravitate to places where there are shared cultural experiences and where they can get the food they need and support they seek - same as white ghettos. You can take a moral judgement from that - but I wasn't actually suggesting one. It's simply a matter of perception.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
[ You can't blame non-english speaking immigrants with only one language for being ghettoised.
No and yes; if you permanently move to another country, you have an obligation in my boook to learn the language of that country to at least passable standard, whether you're a Bangladeshi moving to Birmingham or a Mancunian moving to Marbella.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
posted by yerevan
quote:
I'm monocultural in the sense that I think everyone in a particular place is (ideally) part of a big conversation that results in a messy, complex but to some extent shared (or at least mutually intelligible) culture of that place. Everyone's free to disagree with where the conversation is going, but you can't opt out of it altogether and live in a bubble.
But you could argue that what you are suggesting is just another form of a bubble. I could argue that the world has moved on, that our cultures can possibly be retained to a certain extent, but cross fertilization is the order of the day whether we like it or not. I could argue that your ideas represent an old order of how the world used to be and that your desire to return to a monoculturlism is a desire to return to your bubble. Again, it's a question of perspective.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
quote:
You can't blame people for having been born in Wales or Cornwall or small town Oxfordshire instead of Bradford or Peckham. If you live in much of the UK you probably don't have non-white friends, because there aren't many non-whites to be friends with. And I'm not sure what the problem is with people in England only speaking English.
No, thats part of the point I was trying to make. You can't blame non-english speaking immigrants with only one language for being ghettoised. They will naturally gravitate to places where there are shared cultural experiences and where they can get the food they need and support they seek - same as white ghettos. You can take a moral judgement from that - but I wasn't actually suggesting one. It's simply a matter of perception.
Sigh, you're using that word 'white ghettos' again. The vast majority of UK people don't conciously gravitate towards 'white ghettos'. Those are just the places they happen to live. And IME many parts of the UK seem to lack genuinely mixed areas. If move out of your so-called 'white ghetto' you'll possibly just end up in someone else's 'ghetto'. And you can legitimately question why some immigrants / people of immigrant origin don't try to learn the local language, particularly when they're born in the UK. A minority of immigrants aren't practising multiculturalism, but are using it as a cover to maintain monoculturalism on their own patch.
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
posted by yerevan
quote:
Sigh, you're using that word 'white ghettos' again. The vast majority of UK people don't conciously gravitate towards 'white ghettos'. Those are just the places they happen to live.
I know! Thats the point I'm making!
Maybe the terms I'm using are getting a rise out of you because you find them loaded. I don't mean it to be that way - just trying to explain in less words. White people don't CONCIOUSLY gravitate to white ghettos, but they are in them. There are other factors too of course. It can be accident of birth, somewhere where you can afford a house, where friends are, where people you relate to live, where the amienities you need are around and easily accessed. It's all the same issues that arise for any immigrant who happens not to be white.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
I do see 'ghetto' as a loaded term (doesn't everyone? It hasn't exactly got good associations).
[ 05. August 2010, 12:18: Message edited by: Yerevan ]
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
posted by yerevan
quote:
A minority of immigrants aren't practising multiculturalism, but are using it as a cover to maintain monoculturalism on their own patch.
That comes back to the issue of whether or not your desire for a monocultural Britain is a desire to return to your bubble - which is what many immgrants are accused of living in. It could be argued that the world has changed; indeed, that Britain has changed and we simply have to find new ways of learning to live with it.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
But the concept of 'white flight' from the inner cities to the 'burbs is known in both the UK and the US. So it does happen - and immigrant populations are effectively excluded from large areas of the UK simply by house price alone.
And to answer Marvin - no, you haven't explicitly said you hold a stricter test on immigrants than you do on indigenous whites: but I'd argue that it is a stricter test simply by expecting (much) more of them than you do of us. What penalties would you impose?
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Forward the New Republic
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
But I'm not sure that approving of local monoculturalism is a good way to deal with it.
To go back to the OP, one of my reasons for questioning the idea of a 'multicultural' UK is that in practise most communities on the ground are monocultural. For me 'multiculturalism' is about interaction, which is both a good thing and something that isn't occuring on a meaningful level in some communities. I don't think wanting to see more interactiion can be interpreted as a desire to return to any particular bubble. IMO there have been real efforts through the education system, diversity training, recuitment policies etc to encourage the majority to interact more with minority cultures and to see that minorities are evenly represented in UK life. Resentment is being fed by the (to some extent fair) perception that a minority of people of immigrant origins aren't returning the favour. And by the fact that multiculturalism is sometimes abused to allow authority figures to impose a very rigid monoculturalism on immigrant communities (ie keeping their wives and children under the patriarchical thumb)
quote:
But the concept of 'white flight' from the inner cities to the 'burbs is known in both the UK and the US.
It is, but I would suggest that the number of white people in the UK who have conciously relocated for that reason isn't exactly large.
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
posted by yerevan
quote:
But I'm not sure that approving of local monoculturalism is a good way to deal with it.
I wasn't making a moral judgement on what may be the reality of the situation on the ground. Learning new ways to live with it could involve challenging it.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
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Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
Until 60 years ago, the largest ethnic minority in our islands was the Jewish population.
Never heard of the Irish?
The notion of "imposed multiculturalism" is bollocks. No-one is making you, or anyone else, speak Punjabi (or English), wear a turban (or a trilby), listen to reggae music (or morris dancing), drink wine (or rum), eat curry (or fish & chips), go to the Gudwara (or church), or do any of the other originally non-British things people might choose to do. What has been imposed on you? The whole idea is nonsense.
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
...if you look into it; blacks, whites and asians all perform 'to type' on IQ tests and in other behavioural ways; there are clear and unambiguous differences...
No, there aren't actually. From what you said I suspect that you know effectively nothing about population genetics at all. That's all right - its OK to be ignorant if you want to be, you could hardly be a racist of the kind you are if you weren't. Just don't try to impose your very un-British pseudo-scientific racism on the rest of us please. Or learn a little about the subject first.
quote:
Multiculturalism is overblown and overhyped. If you live in London there is no escaping it, indeed quite a few folk I know have left London because the city they knew and loved has become this multi cultural ''experiment''. Multiculturalism may not lead to ''rivers of blood'' as Enoch Powell famously said in 1968, but it has given a substantial trickle of blood and uneccesary conflict in what was once a broadly 'united' nation.
So that's why London is the safest and least violent really large city in the whole world outside Japan? And why its less violent than it was a hundred years ago (and much, much less violent than two hundred years ago)? Because the racists left? A novel theory.
Just because I don't subscribe to your liberal views doesn't mean its ''bollocks''. Your view could be said to be ''bollocks'' too...just yours is liberal ostrich like ''bollocks''. ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
I clearly made an un-liberal case for the immediate closure of borders to non EU immigrants. I hold to that view.
Imposed multi culturalism is a socially engineered experiment imposed upon us by the liberal elite. Bliar /Brown are just the latest manifestation of this 'multi culturalism'imposed upon us by our unthinking governors; no wonder working class folk vote in certain areas for the BNP! They feel powerless and disenfranchised.
We are 'getting back' what we colonised, so in one sense there is poetic justice in all of this.
Most people (whites that is) daren't say what they think of the blacks and asians that have come into our country post war. Yes, since 1950. The Irish and Welsh etc are part of the age old mix of our nation. As are the Scottish. We were an anglo saxon/celtic nation, admittedly with waves of immigrants , like the French protestants, over the years.
London safe? You're having a laugh mate! Go talk to a few older people who live in this crime ridden capital. Fear is real and tangible. Actual crime is rampant.
The UK WAS a very different country 60 years ago; very far from perfect and far from blameless in many many ways...but it was relatively white and held to a Judaeo-Christian consensus. Yes, there were pockets of blacks etc. mainly around the larger ports and cities. I saw a fair few blacks in Liverpool as a kid.
A number of people have said to me that they left London ( to find refuge in deepest Sussex) because they saw a once great city become a shadow of its former self, and one colleague said to me he left London specifically due to ''the blacks''. I found this hard to swallow in one way, yet in another way, in one generation a mega-shift in ethnicity has taken place.
The ''small country argument'' does in fact hold water and not just in terms of the ethnic thing but as a general argument. Go to France or Spain and see the ''elbow'' room people have to spread out; here in England we are crammed together in large conurbations and immigrants put pressure on health services, on education, on Police, on customs services. You may not like the argument but there are some British people who believe British jobs for British workers. I think we must say ''no more'' to non EU immigration now, and mean it.
Yes blacks/asians have contributed to the nation, no doubts there, but **ck me, I'd like to talk to a Doctor who can speak English!
I am not a fascist, but I fail to see the benefits in having more black and asian people settle our land. Yes the ''empire in reverse'' argument is valid, we went over there in the 17th 18th and 19th centuries , but I say no more. Let folk build up Ghana or Nigeria or Bangladesh etc. The gravy train is ''full'' ..............in my opinion and I do not hold to your left and / or liberal views.
I hold my views as a ''right winger'' and be proud of them.
Saul
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"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Saul, whilst I have some sympathy with some of your views, you lost me earlier on in the thread when you started spouting quasi-racist Bell-Curve-like nonsense about different races having different IQ levels. You also lose me when you conflate the arguments about multiculturalism with the (yes, important, but discrete) issue about overpopulation in the UK.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Saul - the bollocks to which me and ken refer are not your opinions, but the facts on which you base your opinions.
When it comes down to it, you're just a common or garden, old-fashioned, salt-of-the-earth English racist. Here's hoping you haven't transferred your unwarranted prejudices to any children you might have.
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Forward the New Republic
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