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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Styx: MAAN overboard
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
This concludes our latest experiment with a Hellish Annex. Thanks to those who offered ideas and those who worked with the ideas.
The results were interesting, but from my perspective I think it mostly demonstrated that such a board is undesirable. Even ignoring that the vast majority of its content was really just discussion about what its content should be, it failed to conjure anything unambiguously novel or useful to the boards. In fact, it failed to evoke much of anything at all other than frustration. And the concept of limiting general discussion on a general discussion medium needed to offer something suitably transcendent.
I still stand by the idea that experimentation and testing is worthwhile. And while not every test is a success, even failures can be learned from.
Please feel free to use this thread as a repository of whatever final thoughts or deconstructions or comments you might have that are MAAN-relevant.
[ 05. January 2015, 23:42: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Buh-bye.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Loquacious beachcomber
Shipmate
# 8783
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Posted
Nice touch, replacing the MANN board with the In-Crowd board, and making it impossible for anyone to post there, when a major issue with the MANN board was that it wasn't workable on a general discussion board because its proposed rules sought to prevent people from joining the discussions.
What fun!
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TODAY'S SPECIAL - AND SO ARE YOU (Sign on beachfront fish & chips shop)
Posts: 5954 | From: Southeast of Wawa, between the beach and the hiking trail.. | Registered: Nov 2004
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David
Complete Bastard
# 3
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Posted
People can post there, you're just the wrong people.
Posts: 3815 | From: Redneck Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2001
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Loquacious beachcomber
Shipmate
# 8783
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Posted
It was the MANN board to which I was referring; perhaps neither of you are even permitted to navigate there, and mistakenly believed that I was referring to the MAAN board.
Easy to understand how certain Shipmates could make that error.
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TODAY'S SPECIAL - AND SO ARE YOU (Sign on beachfront fish & chips shop)
Posts: 5954 | From: Southeast of Wawa, between the beach and the hiking trail.. | Registered: Nov 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I'm not sorry to see it go, but I was wondering whether the actual posts are preserved for posterity somewhere? The Call Me Numpty reconciliation one was rather fine, and posts aren't usually dispatched to the void without warning.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
You can still find it here.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
That was funny as hell! How did you manage to restrict additional comments to a select few? I wasn't aware till now they weren't visible to everyone. Har!
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
You can still find it here.
78? I gave up looking at around 22. Now I wonder what's at 77...?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Not sure what the access restrictions are but 66 is my favourite closed board (The Da Vinci Code). If you can open it, this link will bring back the content.
So far as the MAAN experiment is concerned, I think it demonstrated that simple guidelines will always be more durable than more complex ones, and that guidelines which seek to limit participation (to fall in with some "wider" objective) are bound to come into conflict with the SoF ethos.
Perhaps that was foreseeable at the outset, as some have argued? I'm not sure anyone is likely to look back on its contents in a year or two's time with the same warmth as the contents of The Da Vinci Code board evoked (in me anyway).
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Not sure what the access restrictions are but 66 is my favourite closed board (The Da Vinci Code). If you can open it, this link will bring back the content.
This one is, well, Mysterious - to judge by the title, at any rate...
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
That appears to be one of the private boards (or was one of the private boards)
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
So far as the MAAN experiment is concerned, I think it demonstrated that simple guidelines will always be more durable than more complex ones, and that guidelines which seek to limit participation (to fall in with some "wider" objective) are bound to come into conflict with the SoF ethos.
And just how did all that get demonstrated?
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
So far as rules are concerned, I'm agreeing with this para from RooK's OP.
quote:
The results were interesting, but from my perspective I think it mostly demonstrated that such a board is undesirable. Even ignoring that the vast majority of its content was really just discussion about what its content should be, it failed to conjure anything unambiguously novel or useful to the boards. In fact, it failed to evoke much of anything at all other than frustration. And the concept of limiting general discussion on a general discussion medium needed to offer something suitably transcendent.
Even allowing for the formative nature of the forum, there were many more posts on how to play than there were duels. I think one might argue that the attempt to formulate the rules, having due regard to the preconditions, was bound to introduce more complexity than if the forum existed in isolation - and I wouldn't disagree with that. Which leads to the issue of ethos.
So far as ethos is concerned, particularly relating to limiting general discussion, I think one only has to read the "Duel between Yorick and IngoB" thread to see conflicts of outlook (never mind other conflicts). YMMV, but I doubt very much whether there are any satisfactory means of resolving those conflicts within SoF.
At any rate, that is what I see. Happy to admit upfront my scepticism about the value of this experiment, my willingness to see if some practice might dent that scepticism, and my current conclusion that the practice, such as it was, tended to confirm that scepticism.
Perhaps "demonstrated" was too strong? I wouldn't quarrel with that. It is what I inferred from the contents, and I freely admit that I was probably influenced by my initial scepticism. We can all be tempted into "told you so".
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Even allowing for the formative nature of the forum, there were many more posts on how to play than there were duels.
I think that's a red herring. All it proves is that we have a fair number of people who like to talk about rules (and a fair number of others who like to criticise them for it). It was completely irrelevant to the success or failure of the MAAN board.
I would note that there was absolutely no controversy about rules which impinged on any actual dispute. No participant expressed any concern about rules, and all 'spectators' showed perfect respect for the rules that the participants had agreed to, despite it being clear that they had absolutely no obligation to do so. The rule that the participants could request others to stay off the thread, but the hosts would not enforce compliance worked.
I also think that it's a bad criticism of MAAN that there were few disputes taken there. Firstly, because in terms of numbers of disputes, it was roughly comparable with the incidents of personal Hell calls in the same period, and no one suggests that Hell is underused (or that it would matter if it were - it was said that Hell could be doing its job even if it were empty). Secondly, because MAAN was supposed to be a way of resolving or containing disputes, and it is an odd criticism that it failed to generate animosity.
It seems to me that MAAN worked for its stated purpose - sorting out disputes without interference - but that was never the important question. The question is one of policy: does the Ship want to deal with personal disputes by giving everyone the opportunity to vent their frustration, or by allowing those most closely concerned to have a semi-private space to argue things out? The experiment showed that there is a way of doing the second option which is workable. It didn't show that as a matter of policy the second option is preferable.
Hell does something which MAAN did not do and wasn't meant to do. It can also help to resolve disputes in the way that MAAN did, but that is not its primary function. If, as Erin suggested, board policy is not directed at all at dispute resolution but purely at containment, then MAAN was not shown to have any advantage over Hell.
It was an interesting experiment. My personal view is that if it were up to me to choose only one of Hell or MAAN then I'd choose Hell, but if both were available, there might well be some issues I'd take to MAAN in preference (but then I'd not exactly a prolific Hell-caller).
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
What Eliab said.
Hell-MAAN was a success, and Purg-MAAN was aborted in its birth.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
If, as Erin suggested, board policy is not directed at all at dispute resolution but purely at containment,
This is something I was wondering whether or not to challenge when posted in MAAN. If the purpose of Hell is to keep conflict away from Purgatory, then surely anything that encourages conflict resolution is a good thing, to the extent that it reduces the potential for further conflict?
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
Hell does something which MAAN did not do and wasn't meant to do. It can also help to resolve disputes in the way that MAAN did, but that is not its primary function. If, as Erin suggested, board policy is not directed at all at dispute resolution but purely at containment, then MAAN was not shown to have any advantage over Hell.
Though I don't agree with it all, I don't want to argue about the rest of your post here, simply because I agree with you over this essential point.
It is I think more accurate to say that Erin wasn't suggesting anything about policy. Rather, she was, as Community Editor, making a policy statement; a clarification and confirmation about the stance on conflict resolution. And she also made clear that the policy of containment had arisen as a result of Admin/Owner response to historical difficulties.
This policy does not limit our actions if we seek to resolve conflicts with other Shipmates. I like PMs as a means. Conflict resolution is rarely helped by an audience, even a silent one. Playing to the gallery is hard to avoid.
If there is a good case for incorporating a fostering of conflict resolution into the policies for running the Ship, I haven't seen it yet. Anyway, it's not me you'd have to convince.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
(xposted with Ricardus)
Keeping some semblance of order is a different, and more modest, aim, isn't it? Unrest is an essential part of the ethos.
[ 23. November 2010, 11:41: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
(xposted with Ricardus)
Keeping some semblance of order is a different, and more modest, aim, isn't it? Unrest is an essential part of the ethos.
What I'm trying to say is that if MAAN helps to reduce conflict, by means of successful conflict resolution, then it's a useful tool in the Ship's policy of keeping conflict out of Purg, even if the Ship has other tools at its disposal as well.
It's possible that MAAN wouldn't have that effect, for the reasons you state (and I'm pretty sceptical about it myself, as I think I stated when it was first mooted), but I don't think that's actually been demonstrated.
(For the record: the reason I didn't join in on the thread in MAAN is because I didn't particularly want to align myself with the "Erin does nothing and the Admins' policy is evil" line run by some of MAAN's supporters. I think Erin and the Admins do a fantastic job.)
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
Honestly, we're all about facilitating discussion about the issues of the day. If Simon popped up tomorrow and said that we could only keep one board, the automatic, no-brainer answer would be Purgatory. The other boards have evolved to have their own purposes, but their original raisons d'etre were to pull extracurricular shit out of the main, serious discussion board. Our current set up is to provide for that with the least amount of host work necessary. The hosts and administrators put in many, many long hours -- every post on these boards has been read by at least one host. Because of that, I'm loath to require more things, especially along the lines of facilitating conflict resolution. Which when I think of the Hell hosts makes me laugh like a loon.
Something has stirred deep in my repressed memories, though. I think at one point we tried barring others from posting on threads they did not start or were not the subject of, but that was unworkable and tiring, because really, no one paid any attention to it and everyone posted like their lives depended on it. We abandoned that quickly. This incarnation did not do anything that could not be done in Hell or by PM or e-mail. Ultimately it devolved into a slap fight between me and Ingo, so there really wasn't a need to keep it going.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
Something has stirred deep in my repressed memories, though. I think at one point we tried barring others from posting on threads they did not start or were not the subject of,
we certainly did but it was dead by summer 2002, tomb and I got bored enforcing a rule you couldn't enforce.
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
I am one of the people who resolved differences on the MAAN board.
Nothing about the experience tells me it could not have been done in Hell. Call me Numpty was quite gracious with his post (and a pm) and I tried to match his grace. The location did not matter to me.
There is an argument about that the MAAN rules didn't have to be followed. That, in fact, they were not followed on the two successful threads. I am not sure how that makes the MAAN board any more relevant as it begs the question of "What then is the purpose of a board with those rules?"
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
OK, first I should like to say thank you to all involved in giving this a try. It matters a lot more to me that something new was tried, rather than how well it ultimately went. This thank you of course first of all goes to RooK, who brought MAAN into existence, but also to all others who may have been involved behind the scenes and at least tolerated the trial. In particular then, thanks also go to Erin for that.
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
This incarnation did not do anything that could not be done in Hell or by PM or e-mail. Ultimately it devolved into a slap fight between me and Ingo, so there really wasn't a need to keep it going.
The first statement is factually false; and if MAAN got killed simply because of our "slap fight", then that's sad-silly. But I don't particularly want to revive the latter.
I think it is quite obvious how MAAN could have worked, namely as a general "focused discussion" place. "Debate team" like discussion would have provided the main traffic, "duels" would have occasionally provided some spice. The latter have been demonstrated to work. The former was stopped by Erin before it could be tested, but there can be very little doubt that the four people gearing up for it would have made it work.
MAAN hence ran into trouble because of ideology, or as Barnabas62 wants to have it, "SoF ethos". Its Purg variant ran into the narrow definition of "open discussion" Erin has, which apparently means that everybody must be able to talk at the same time. Its Hell variant was doing fine, but it excelled at what is - according to Erin and David - of no particular interest to the Ship, namely conflict resolution between Shipmates. The former I find silly, the latter shocking. However, these are not my decisions to make.
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
I am one of the people who resolved differences on the MAAN board. Nothing about the experience tells me it could not have been done in Hell.
I would agree that it is possible that your exchange would have been left as undisturbed in Hell, given the unusual OP. However, there can be little doubt that the MAAN setting facilitated the peace given to this. Furthermore, there is no way that Eliab vs. Martin would have gone the same way in Hell.
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
There is an argument about that the MAAN rules didn't have to be followed. That, in fact, they were not followed on the two successful threads.
There seems to be an assumption here that there were lots of MAAN rules about running a duel. There were not. They were some about setting up a duel. All three actual threads obeyed the rules by limiting the number of participants to four or less. All two threads that were allowed to proceed showed that in spite of a lack of hostly enforcement, the "SoF public" followed the rules, too. Namely by not posting while the main players engaged.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
All two threads that were allowed to proceed showed that in spite of a lack of hostly enforcement, the "SoF public" followed the rules, too. Namely by not posting while the main players engaged.
That's probably because the vast majority of people didn't give a crap so didn't even bother reading the board.
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
A lot of the Shipmates I've been talking to (in real life at a meet and in the café) just didn't bother reading the MAAN board. And some of these people are prolific posters in Purgatory.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
MAAN hence ran into trouble because of ideology, or as Barnabas62 wants to have it, "SoF ethos". Its Purg variant ran into the narrow definition of "open discussion" Erin has, which apparently means that everybody must be able to talk at the same time. Its Hell variant was doing fine, but it excelled at what is - according to Erin and David - of no particular interest to the Ship, namely conflict resolution between Shipmates.
The "Purg variant" mainly seemed to run into difficulty because it suddenly appeared out of nowhere without any indication it was even on the cards, as an example solution to an apparant problem in Purgatory that noone had previously even indicated existed. I was under the impression that the combination of containing personal disputes in Hell and circular arguments in Dead Horses had left Purgatory as our serious discussion board with the least problems, a place for rigorous discussion of a wide range of subjects with all views welcome. Clearly I was wrong there, as one person felt that there were too many people posting there. Even though I had no interest in the MAAN experiment (I've always thought it was a stupid idea) the title of Yorick v IngoB caught my eye - I thought you were going to have a personal dispute resolution, and I admit to voyeristic tendancies when I saw that.
As regards the two Hell-version threads. Yes, they resulted in a form of resolution between two pairs of people. But, they were also related to ongoing proper Hell threads and it's not unusual for Hell threads to spawn PM exchanges that result in limited resolution between some offended people. What I saw didn't seem any different from PMs in public. And, of course, there are other people who have unresolved issues with Numpty and Martin who never bothered with MAAN ... and those are either unresolved or simply forgotten for now.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98
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Posted
As a long-time Shippie, many years hosting, and now free to simply read what interests me, I found that I simply forgot to even check in on the MAAN board after the first few weeks.
Ingo, it was boring. If I want to watch people arguing, I will do it in Hell (where it can be fun, in a primitive way, which includes the possibility of dogpiles) or Purgatory (where you get more than two viewpoints).
The sort of duel you seem to be idealizing seems also to be the sort of duel carried out when duels were declared illegal and thus needed to be carried out in private. I trust you see the irony of trying to recreate that "two men alone in the forest with only their weapons and their seconds" situation here on the internet?
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Ethos and ideology are, in dictionary terms, close bedfellows. As one definition puts it "the guiding beliefs or ideals that characterize a community". I prefer ethos because ideology has pejorative overtones.
In this context, ISTM that the main ideological question is whether rules should be formulated which by their nature exclude any Shipmate from any debate which takes place here. In principle, I'm opposed to that, which is why I didn't like the duelling concept here. If it appears in the open here, nobody can say "that's none of your business". We give Shipmates the freedom to participate, and the freedom to exchange PM's/email addresses if what they want to talk about is nobody else's business. That freedom is only qualified by the guidelines for allowable posting.
The subsidiary question of Board boundaries (Purg and Hell, Purg and DH for example) does not curtail freedom to debate, it simply redirects the traffic for the sake of some measure of order.
I guess there is some scope for further discussion re more proactive conflict resolution policies. My present view is on record that I see neither a good argument for doing that nor a good means of doing that which would not do some damage to the essential freedoms we give Shipmates to be unrestful, nasty even, provided they stick to the guidelines. There is a tolerance in that which I think adds to the place, rather than detracts from it.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
Y'all post like you are arguing facts. What proof do any of you have about how many people read, or didn't read, the MAAN board? Was it really boring, or did you just not like it? Arguing from a few of your friends is not an overwhelming piece of logic.
The decree that anyone who posted on it had to be prepared to duel on it may well have frightened more than one poster off. Of course, that seems to have been one of the central points of the board.
Ingo, I have no idea how the other duel might have gone elsewhere, and neither do you.
The board is gone. Those who supported it liked it and those who did not support it didn't like it. Gosh, what a surprise. The decision to dump the board has been made and every single argument that could have been made for, or against, it has been made.
Continued argument on the point actually supports one of the premises of the MAAN board.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
I never noticed it but then I haven't read the ship much over the past 6 months.
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
Continued argument on the point actually supports one of the premises of the MAAN board.
All it seems to demonstrate to me is that many of us enjoy discussing all sorts of issues, usually well beyond the point where there is actually anything new to say. But, it didn't take MAAN to demonstrate that!
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
Y'all post like you are arguing facts. What proof do any of you have about how many people read, or didn't read, the MAAN board? Was it really boring, or did you just not like it? Arguing from a few of your friends is not an overwhelming piece of logic.
...
I looked at the recent visitors list each time I read MAAN and then compared it to some of the other boards. Most of the time, people were more interested in what was going on elsewhere. (Sadly no screengrabs for either proof or comparision purposes).
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
In this context, ISTM that the main ideological question is whether rules should be formulated which by their nature exclude any Shipmate from any debate which takes place here.
Erin’s chief objection to the MAAN board was indeed that it excluded people from discussion. The fact that some of this discussion might not actually happen without the MAAN board was considered irrelevant. In other words, it’s better that the discussion doesn’t take place than that anyone should be excluded from it, because, by jiminy, freedom to take part in discussion is more important than discussion happening.
It seems astonishingly upfucked to me that, in order to serve the ideology that everyone should be equally included in discussion, an extra board, which might permit certain discussions to take place that otherwise would not, should be terminated. And it should be terminated at the very birth of a discussion! An extra board, mark you, that in no way interferes with other discussion that happens absolutely unaffected elsewhere (indeed, it might well stimulate more of this), but that only adds extra facility for discussion.
Maybe they should call this an 'inclusivity board' or something.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
It seems astonishingly upfucked to me that, in order to serve the ideology that everyone should be equally included in discussion, an extra board, which might permit certain discussions to take place that otherwise would not, should be terminated.
But but but that's too easy. You can get a private board, restrict membership to whomever you please, and blather to your heart's content. Or you could get your own URL, and set up your own discussion site for just the people you want. Or you could go to one of the many one-on-one debate boards on the internet.
No, what you want is to have a playground on someone else's dime where you can display your intellectual prowess before an audience. And when the people with the dime say, "that's not how we want to use our dime," you denigrate them as stifling the free exchange of ideas (or some such). THAT is what's upgefucked.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
It seems astonishingly upfucked to me that, in order to serve the ideology that everyone should be equally included in discussion, an extra board, which might permit certain discussions to take place that otherwise would not, should be terminated.
Well see, this is the part I haven't understood…one can have any discussion one wants via PM or for that matter email, should one want to exchange email addresses. But this seemed all about private discussion with audience – sort of like lawn tennis with nicely dressed spectators on the sidelines going 'Bravo! Good shot!" with polite applause. And that's pretty much all about ego as best as I can tell. But for God's sake call a spade a spade and don't pretend it's something else or try to make it for the betterment of all mankind rather than the greater glorification of the participants. Because it's not fooling anybody with any sense (or even me).
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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
You can get a private board, etc. ...
what you want is ... an audience.
Not so fast, mousethief. What I want is an interested audience which is voluntary and self-selecting. Anyone else can scroll past, same as Kerrysvagina, or whatever it's called.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Loquacious beachcomber
Shipmate
# 8783
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
What I want is an interested audience
Don't we all. But not everyone feels they're entitled to have one.
I am entitled to have one; our Presbytery says so.
Further, I am entitled to have my audience pay me a stipend and provide me with housing.
Except that - the true audience for Sunday worship is God.
Which makes such claims by me rather problematic, IMHO.
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TODAY'S SPECIAL - AND SO ARE YOU (Sign on beachfront fish & chips shop)
Posts: 5954 | From: Southeast of Wawa, between the beach and the hiking trail.. | Registered: Nov 2004
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
Nope. I don’t feel I’m entitled to anything, Sine; I know very well I’m here by privilege and the skin of my teeth.
You cannot see how the MAAN idea would benefit the community, but I can. The fact that it would certainly benefit me in no way detracts from its potential to benefit the rest of the community. Indeed, if it keeps me out of Purgatory or Hell, the section of the community that currently prefers to scroll past my every word would surely have found it easier to please itself if I’d been ‘contained’ on a MAAN thread.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
Yes, well, all I could do about that was offer my services as Host, but this apparently caused Erin some considerable distress.
(Can't think why. I reckon I'd be a brilliant and very popular Host or Administrator.)
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Nope. I don’t feel I’m entitled to anything, Sine; I know very well I’m here by privilege and the skin of my teeth.
Then why is the tone of your posts one of indignation rather than humility?
quote:
The fact that it would certainly benefit me in no way detracts from its potential to benefit the rest of the community.
It sounds like Ronald Reagan's trickle-down economics to me. You get what you want and the common folks also possibly benefit in some undefined way – maybe.
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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
You can get a private board, etc. ...
what you want is ... an audience.
Not so fast, mousethief. What I want is an interested audience which is voluntary and self-selecting. Anyone else can scroll past, same as Kerrysvagina, or whatever it's called.
You've ignored mousethief's key point. If you want these things, why should someone else provide them. No one's said that you can't have those things, all that's been said is that you can't have them here. It's not like the Ship's the only show in town.
BTW, you might get a better response if you could resist the snarky remarks. "Kerrysvagina or whatever it's called". ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
Myeh. I shouldn't worry about the lack of dignation in tone of my posts, if I were you. Notoriously unreliable business.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
If you want these things, why should someone else provide them. No one's said that you can't have those things, all that's been said is that you can't have them here. It's not like the Ship's the only show in town.
Indeed, but you could say that about the entire Ship, couldn't you? The point is, I was sincerely hoping MAAN might be of general benefit to the community.
Believe it or not.
(And the Kerrysvagina thing was an attempt at humour. I actually do know it's called Kerygmania really. I was trying to be funny. For the amusement of others as well as myself.
Believe it or not.)
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Myeh. I shouldn't worry about the lack of dignation in tone of my posts, if I were you. Notoriously unreliable business.
I've got a nickel. Can I have some advice too?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Indeed, if it keeps me out of Purgatory or Hell, the section of the community that currently prefers to scroll past my every word would surely have found it easier to please itself if I’d been ‘contained’ on a MAAN thread.
This rather uncharitable thought had crossed my mind, along with the equally uncharitable analogy of a sump well--not that I scroll past your posts (as I'm sure you know) but the topic you were undertaking in the abortive duel holds absolutely no interest for me.
To be frank, I was far from convinced at the outset that you actually believed the position you were working to defend, although in keeping with the best tradition of any formal debate society I'm sure you would have defended your position vociferously. I suspect I'm not the only one who felt this way--and I suppose it's just barely possible Erin might have taken a slightly longer "wait and see how it develops" attitude had the topic not felt so artificial.
So after my initial glance over your opening cannonade, I determined to keep an eye in case Ruth W or Duo Seraphim posted, but otherwise to completely ignore the thread. I returned when I noticed Erin was posting (feel free to think of vultures and carrion, if you wish).
I was initially sorry that Erin shut down the thread, because I had felt it would keep both of you "occupied", as it were, which meant we wouldn't find your longer contributions across the boards. I'll be the first to admit I find your shorter contributions more interesting and more "natural" than your massive epistles. I would probably say the same of Ingo. What I failed to realize at the time, however, was that as host of the board she was facing the perusal of every single word.
There would have been an enforced audience of two (RooK and Erin) and an "interested audience" of an undetermined number for a somewhat longer period of time than I expected to invest, perhaps. Given the posting styles of the Shipmates involved, however, I find it hard to believe the thread wouldn't have continued to be an exercise in intellectual Onanism long after anyone cared.
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
The point is, I was sincerely hoping MAAN might be of general benefit to the community.
I know what your mean. On Sundays I sincerely hope the rest of the congregations enjoys seeing how great I look.
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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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