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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Styx: MAAN overboard
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
Sine, your tone is showing.
Despite all the prior naysaying and the post told-you-so-ing I still think MAAN could have been of genuine overall benefit for the Ship, and I remain mystified by the ‘discussion at the expense of inclusivity’ argument. It was worth a pop, and I’m truly grateful, especially to RooK and Erin, that it at least got a little flarrrp.
Okay, I’m done.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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IntellectByProxy
Larger than you think
# 3185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I think it is quite obvious how MAAN could have worked, namely as a general "focused discussion" place. "Debate team" like discussion would have provided the main traffic, "duels" would have occasionally provided some spice. The latter have been demonstrated to work. The former was stopped by Erin before it could be tested, but there can be very little doubt that the four people gearing up for it would have made it work.
I was one person who was excited about MAAN and willing to support it financially if it took off.
The reason I loved the idea was because it gave a chance for formal debate (MAAN-Purg) between two participants - for example I would have loved to see the Alan Cresswell/Myrrh climate change debate, or the me/Yorick indoctrinating children debate, and so on.
This is different from Purg in that it gives proponents chance to gather their arguments without the thread diverging into parallel arguments between many posters; the Alan/Myrrh climate threads are type exemplars of that where repeatedly-raised points don't get answered due to one protagonist (Myrrh in that case) getting distracted by intervening parallel posts.
The formal debate space works extremely well on another board I'm a member of, and it is self-policing to a large extent. And it's not about self-aggrandisement or intellectual masturbation - it's about having a space where debate can happen without 100 other people chipping in.
I find it valuable, and I'm sorry it was aborted so early here because it had the potential to be a nice development given time.
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www.zambiadiaries.blogspot.com
Posts: 3482 | From: The opposite | Registered: Aug 2002
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IntellectByProxy
Larger than you think
# 3185
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Posted
For fuck's sake MouseThief and Sine, why not lay off Yorick?
Why do you have such a hard time believing what he says about his "intentions", or lack thereof?
Seriously, I respect both of you hugely (believe it or not), but you come across as angry teenagers on this thread.
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www.zambiadiaries.blogspot.com
Posts: 3482 | From: The opposite | Registered: Aug 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IntellectByProxy:
I find it valuable, and I'm sorry it was aborted so early here because it had the potential to be a nice development given time.
Lots of things work really well in lots of places. Does that mean they need to work here?
quote:
Originally posted by IntellectByProxy:
For fuck's sake MouseThief and Sine, why not lay off Yorick?
Why do you have such a hard time believing what he says about his "intentions", or lack thereof?
Seriously, I respect both of you hugely (believe it or not), but you come across as angry teenagers on this thread.
This wouldn't come across as special pleading from somebody who disagreed with Yorick rather than someone who agreed.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
Perhaps this is the appropriate time to point out that if you want to get personal, do so in Hell, not here.
Spike
Styx Host
[ 24. November 2010, 15:40: Message edited by: Spike ]
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
About the idea of the Purg variant -- it may have been my failure to read carefully, but I never thought this was going to be part of the plan. When IngoB recruited me to be his second, I assumed that the proposed debate with Yorick arose from a heated exchange of words on some thread I just hadn't seen.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IntellectByProxy:
the Alan/Myrrh climate threads are type exemplars of that where repeatedly-raised points don't get answered due to one protagonist (Myrrh in that case) getting distracted by intervening parallel posts.
I'm absolutely sure that it wasn't the intervening posts that precluded adequate engagement for that example.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IntellectByProxy:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I think it is quite obvious how MAAN could have worked, namely as a general "focused discussion" place. "Debate team" like discussion would have provided the main traffic, "duels" would have occasionally provided some spice. The latter have been demonstrated to work. The former was stopped by Erin before it could be tested, but there can be very little doubt that the four people gearing up for it would have made it work.
I was one person who was excited about MAAN and willing to support it financially if it took off.
The reason I loved the idea was because it gave a chance for formal debate (MAAN-Purg) between two participants - for example I would have loved to see the Alan Cresswell/Myrrh climate change debate, or the me/Yorick indoctrinating children debate, and so on.
I've tried occasionally to promote the use of the cafe for virtual events - and had the occasional detailed discussion there. I have always thought it would work well for hosting a debate if someone wished to do so. Realtime debate would make it more difficult to completely talk past one another, and would be naturally self-limiting in terms of time.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Loquacious beachcomber
Shipmate
# 8783
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Posted
One of the things I find very interesting about this thread is that there have been a number of occasions when Shipmates have posted their concerns in the Styx after a Shipmate has been thrown - Splash! - overboard, but this is the first time since I have been here that people are discussing a forum being thrown - Splash! - overboard.
Lots of commonality in the commentary for the two different types of events, IMO.
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TODAY'S SPECIAL - AND SO ARE YOU (Sign on beachfront fish & chips shop)
Posts: 5954 | From: Southeast of Wawa, between the beach and the hiking trail.. | Registered: Nov 2004
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rufiki
Ship's 'shroom
# 11165
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
What I want is an interested audience which is voluntary and self-selecting.
quote:
Originally posted by IntellectByProxy:
The reason I loved the idea was because it gave a chance for formal debate (MAAN-Purg) between two participants - for example I would have loved to see the Alan Cresswell/Myrrh climate change debate, or the me/Yorick indoctrinating children debate, and so on.
Perhaps debates could work as an occasional/one-off event? Potential protagonists could put themselves forward stating what their debate will be about and who would be involved. The community could then vote for which debate they would like to see (and if no potential debate gets enough votes, we don't bother).
Just a thought - I don't have a dog in this fight.
Posts: 1562 | Registered: Mar 2006
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Think˛:
I've tried occasionally to promote the use of the cafe for virtual events - and had the occasional detailed discussion there. I have always thought it would work well for hosting a debate if someone wished to do so. Realtime debate would make it more difficult to completely talk past one another, and would be naturally self-limiting in terms of time.
That's not a bad idea at all! ![[Smile]](smile.gif) Do that on a regular basis, with topics of interest. Would be a nice one also for advertising on the frontpage (which does exist, I'm told): "Upcoming debate on X, on the Yth at Z o'clock!"
However, I would like to get a "log" of the discussion then. Or even better, see it posted - say as Purg thread, a bit like a MW report in Eccles. That would then likely spark a discussion of the discussion in Purg!
Win-win.
However, I'm afraid in the cafe one really would have to "silence the crowd" somehow. There is no way the participants can keep track of what is being said, if lots of "noise" from an audience keep the text scrolling by. (Uhh, I haven't been in the cafe for ages. This comment applies to what it was like way back when...)
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
Since the following could be interpreted wrongly
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
About the idea of the Purg variant -- it may have been my failure to read carefully, but I never thought this was going to be part of the plan. When IngoB recruited me to be his second, I assumed that the proposed debate with Yorick arose from a heated exchange of words on some thread I just hadn't seen.
I briefly want to clarify what I said to RuthW. With kind permission from her, I hence post the first paragraph from my initial PM to her about becoming my second:
quote:
Yorick wants to duel me on "the religious indoctrination of children", with him as contra and me as pro. Style would be Purgatorial, not Hellish, and the intent is - beyond the interest of the topic itself - to demonstrate that such a Purgatorial duel is possible and hopefully interesting.
The topic itself did arise from a fairly intense exchange Yorick had in Purg about that topic, namely here and below. However, I was not involved in that thread myself (which actually makes sort of sense: there would have been no point in just duplicating existing Purg contributions).
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
That's not a bad idea at all! Do that on a regular basis, with topics of interest. Would be a nice one also for advertising on the frontpage (which does exist, I'm told): "Upcoming debate on X, on the Yth at Z o'clock!"
However, I would like to get a "log" of the discussion then. Or even better, see it posted - say as Purg thread, a bit like a MW report in Eccles. That would then likely spark a discussion of the discussion in Purg!
Win-win.
However, I'm afraid in the cafe one really would have to "silence the crowd" somehow. There is no way the participants can keep track of what is being said, if lots of "noise" from an audience keep the text scrolling by. (Uhh, I haven't been in the cafe for ages. This comment applies to what it was like way back when...)
I think if you held the debate in one of the subsiduary rooms rather than the main bit you could reasonably expect - at an advertised debate - people would watch for the duration and then perhaps comment or vote afterwards.
I don't think reprinting it in purg afterwards would be a good idea - you lose the immediacy. But it might spark an idea that someone then wanted to OP.
Bear in mind you can't write screeds - short paragraphs at a time - so it would be a quicker moving event.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IntellectByProxy:
The reason I loved the idea was because it gave a chance for formal debate (MAAN-Purg) between two participants - for example I would have loved to see the Alan Cresswell/Myrrh climate change debate, or the me/Yorick indoctrinating children debate, and so on.
You might "have loved to see the Alan Cresswell/Myrrh climate change debate" in MAAN-Purg. I wouldn't have liked to participate in such a discussion under those terms. In the discussion in Purg there were several other people who made very valuable points, which saved me from posting a response to everything Myrrh said. And, it wasn't unusual for others to make points better than I did, or to make the same point in a different way which may have been more easily understood than the way I said it. And, there were times when others corrected points I'd made that weren't entirely correct. Trying to help Myrrh understand my position was tedious hard work, and it appears ultimately fruitless, the bouncing ideas off others was good fun. If I was forced into a strict one-on-one discussion with Myrrh I'd have probably not bothered - all the effort without any of the fun.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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David
Complete Bastard
# 3
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
(Can't think why. I reckon I'd be a brilliant and very popular Host or Administrator.)
Have a guess at the fastest way to remove yourself from the "Potential Host" list.
Posts: 3815 | From: Redneck Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2001
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
You think I was on it?
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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David
Complete Bastard
# 3
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Posted
Of course not.
Posts: 3815 | From: Redneck Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2001
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IntellectByProxy
Larger than you think
# 3185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
Perhaps this is the appropriate time to point out that if you want to get personal, do so in Hell, not here.
Noted, but I didn't think it warranted a hell call: I thought it was appropriate to leave it on this thread, but if not then I apologise.
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www.zambiadiaries.blogspot.com
Posts: 3482 | From: The opposite | Registered: Aug 2002
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IntellectByProxy
Larger than you think
# 3185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
This wouldn't come across as special pleading from somebody who disagreed with Yorick rather than someone who agreed.
So what if I disagree or agree. Incredibly I am able to detatch my personal feelings about someone from my consideration of what they say. And I'm not Yorick's protectorate, nor does he (I suspect) need me to be.
My point to you was not about you disagreeing with Yorick (which, by thunder, you are entitled to do), but about the way you are treating him. For the record I think he has comported himself extremely well on this thread in the face of highly dubious treatment.
Now I couldn't care less if you like or dislike his ideas; I happen to like them, many others don't. But it would be nice to debate them as simply ideas rather than as Yorick-the-former-transgressor's ideas.
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www.zambiadiaries.blogspot.com
Posts: 3482 | From: The opposite | Registered: Aug 2002
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Loquacious beachcomber
Shipmate
# 8783
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by David:
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
(Can't think why. I reckon I'd be a brilliant and very popular Host or Administrator.)
Have a guess at the fastest way to remove yourself from the "Potential Host" list.
I think I would make a wonderful Host or Admin; I have great experience with expounding on the way things should be, while watching people pretend to listen and then look for ways to slip whatever they choose to do past anyhow.
And I know that I could definitely "host light," I would have a quick shot of single-malt Scotch and go off to bed if the "infraction" could safely be ignored.
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TODAY'S SPECIAL - AND SO ARE YOU (Sign on beachfront fish & chips shop)
Posts: 5954 | From: Southeast of Wawa, between the beach and the hiking trail.. | Registered: Nov 2004
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Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Think˛:
I've tried occasionally to promote the use of the cafe for virtual events - and had the occasional detailed discussion there. I have always thought it would work well for hosting a debate if someone wished to do so. Realtime debate would make it more difficult to completely talk past one another, and would be naturally self-limiting in terms of time.
While I think that's a very good idea, one of the benefits of non-real time debate is that it gives protagonists the time to go away, gather information, maybe cool down or rehearse their arguments, and come back a day or two later with their response. I've found with the slow-moving Dead Horse boards, I've found that quite beneficial, and on rare occassions a two or three-participant debate has developed naturally, though with a slow shelf life as they are freely derailed into other conversations. I enjoyed them though, and have enjoyed reading them when not a participant. Purgatory is free-flowing and fast-moving and ideas and thoughts are thrown in off the bat - this is good for what it is, but a different forum that artificially provides time and opportunity for someone to go away and draw up a more studied response might give a different flavour to the conversation.
Maybe a real-time pre-arranged debate event could be good - I'd certainly be interested in watching. But I clicked onto the Yorick thread on the MAAN board when I noticed it and read his opening post and was extremely interested. I'd have loved to have read it and thought it was a brilliant idea. I was very disapointed when Erin came wading in to stomp all over the discussion before it even got a chance to start.
I don't even care if it is intellectual wankery in any case - what does that matter - the main boards are fine for a free-for-all and no one's proposing they be replaced, just supplemented with what I expect would have been something quite uncommon, though intriguing when it occurred - sometimes it's good to have different rules for different styles of conversation.
And there could have been good debates between single duellists, or pre-arranged teams. And new participants could have been allowed to join a team during it's course if accepted by both lead duellists by PM - the possibilities were endless.
A shame MAAN wasn't given a chance. I thought it should at least have been allowed to run for one debate and then evaluated on the back of that, rather than Erin's preconceptions. But of course she gives and takes away, may Erin's name....etc etc.
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“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
A shame MAAN wasn't given a chance. I thought it should at least have been allowed to run for one debate and then evaluated on the back of that, rather than Erin's preconceptions.
Me too - there would have been no harm in letting some Purg - style debates run, seeing how it went, then a review imo.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
Purgatory is free-flowing and fast-moving and ideas and thoughts are thrown in off the bat - this is good for what it is, but a different forum that artificially provides time and opportunity for someone to go away and draw up a more studied response might give a different flavour to the conversation.
No one is stopping someone from going away and doing a bit of research, or just plain think, before answering. I do it quite regularly. I'd expect that the vast majority, if not all, people would prefer a thought out and considered response (even if there are a dozen or more other posts in between) than some quick oneliner that adds very little to the actual discussion.
The best Purgatory threads are not just ideas and thoughts thrown in off the bat. Even in the days when Purgatory was a very busy board, there was always time to think through what you posted. With the small number of active threads and lower post rate these days that's even more true.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
That's quite true, Alan, but I've got to say there's a sort of pressure that becomes exasperating to even the most beligerent of us, when multiple posters make long posts with multiple points in multiple directions to which they rightly expect their correspeondent to reply fairly promptly.
The idea of a slow-burn, one-on-one, unpressured Purg-MAAN was delicious.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
One of my professors in law school would not answer the telephone at home unless he felt like answering it. I asked him about it and he said "You wouldn't invite people in unless they were expected company would you?"
He enjoyed his home life more because he would not let other peoples' expectations make him do what he was not otherwise inclined to do.
I am not suggesting Purg is what you wanted MAAN to be. However, an attitude of "if they do not like waiting it is not my problem" may be a useful thing.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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Arrietty
Ship's borrower
# 45
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
That's quite true, Alan, but I've got to say there's a sort of pressure that becomes exasperating to even the most beligerent of us, when multiple posters make long posts with multiple points in multiple directions to which they rightly expect their correspeondent to reply fairly promptly.
The idea of a slow-burn, one-on-one, unpressured Purg-MAAN was delicious.
I genuinely don't feel obliged to read and answer long posts that I'm not interested in, just because I want to reply to a certain poster.
And I'm not sure if people 'rightly' expect to be answered - more often than not nobody refers to my posts, I don't have a clue if anyone reads them most of the time, and actually, I don't see why they should read them if they don't want to.
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i-church
Online Mission and Ministry
Posts: 6634 | From: Coventry, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
And if a rambling poster makes one valid point, you can always reply to that one point only by trimming the quote. I do this often, and would expect an experienced poster to know how to do that.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
That's quite true, Alan, but I've got to say there's a sort of pressure that becomes exasperating to even the most beligerent of us, when multiple posters make long posts with multiple points in multiple directions to which they rightly expect their correspeondent to reply fairly promptly.
I think this pressure to reply comes from yourself. I have never felt that in the entire time I have been on the ship.
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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The Weeder
Shipmate
# 11321
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
That's quite true, Alan, but I've got to say there's a sort of pressure that becomes exasperating to even the most beligerent of us, when multiple posters make long posts with multiple points in multiple directions to which they rightly expect their correspeondent to reply fairly promptly.
I think this pressure to reply comes from yourself. I have never felt that in the entire time I have been on the ship.
Yes, life is too short
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Still missing the gator
Posts: 2542 | From: LaLa Land | Registered: Apr 2006
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