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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Styx: Rook - Could it be true? hell thread
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
I'm not quite understanding the new board. To me it represents a breakdown of community. One of the functions of dogpiling (perceived or real), and possibly the most important function is that it can let us know when we have been prats. In real life we might do this by asking other people quietly what they think of a certain situation and if we ask the right people we might get an honest response. We can ask people here on the cafe, but the likelihood is we will only ask those we feel closest too, who again will likely tell us what we most want to hear. Hells 'dogpiling' on the other hand, lets us know when we may indeed have overstepped the mark and when our own perspective is skewed to the point that a large section of the community sees it and says so. In that situation it is only the terminally block headed and stubborn who cannot see that a large group of people might have a point and that we might be wrong.
Now maybe I have got the concept of the new board wrong, but it seems to me that a 'duel' between two or three people removes the litmus test of community. Personally, if I act like a prat I'd rather hear that from the rest of the community and have an opportunity at least to rethink my stupidity, rather than enter a self deluding 'duel' void of community input.
Maybe I have misunderstood the concept though.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
No, I think that you've understood the concept very well.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Liberty
ship's football fanatic
# 713
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Posted
IngoB, I looked at the hell thread and found no-one else that supports the idea. There are a few on the MAAN board though
Not counting people on the MAAN board who say they will try the idea, but don't actually think its a good one, you're at 7.5:
Eliab,
AristonA
Numpty (half)
Yorick
Scarlet
MattBlack
IngoB
DuoSeraphim
I guess its good for you that numbers can mean diddlysquat here.
But if I find out any of my Farmville crops have died while I took the time to do this, I'll... I'll... I'll... ah crap, I'll probably just eat chocolate and cry like a baby.
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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"I'ma be what I set out to be, without a doubt, undoubtedly"
Posts: 1879 | From: SW2 to 20009 | Registered: Jul 2001
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
But in all of this the purpose is not conflict resolution. The purpose of Hell is conflict containment. And it does that admirably. Which is why actually replacing Hell with a Fool Duel (excellent suggestion, GK) isn't useful or ultimately productive. It presupposes something that isn't true. As for the conflict resolution, if both sides are civil enough to do so, the whole thing can be carried off strictly by PM. Which is a good thing. But again it's not what Hell is about.
Nobody's suggesting otherwise. We all know and understand what Hell is about. The MAAN thread is about something else: it's a thread where people can engage in conflict with the intention of resolution without the interference of masses of other people who cannot restrain the urge to vent their feelings.
It's an adjuvant, not a substitute.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
You mean, the Callee, who has made themselves so unpopular by their posting style or content can limit the number of Shipmates telling them that they don't like the Callee's style or content at once? With a soupçon of wishful thinking that the other Shipmates lined up longing to have a go will get bored by the time they can take the Callee on.
With such complicated rules that mean that the rule breakers who are often the Callees will be able to ignore them at will? Sure it's so going to work - not.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
I’m truly fascinated by the negativity here.
Would anyone care to be honest enough to admit they actually want to see the MAAN board fail?
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
I think seeing Eliab debating one to one with someone will be fascinating - but then Eliab is worth reading wherever he posts.
However, this thread has reminded me why I scroll past many of the more interested promoters, so I'm more likely to see who is involved and not bother wasting my time reading it.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
I’m truly fascinated by the negativity here.
Would anyone care to be honest enough to admit they actually want to see the MAAN board fail?
Haven't you noticed? The Ship has a lot of Debbie Downers.
I'll be interested in watching. If it works, cool, it works. Or not.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Arrietty
Ship's borrower
# 45
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
I’m truly fascinated by the negativity here.
Would anyone care to be honest enough to admit they actually want to see the MAAN board fail?
I actually can't see 'negativity', if by negativity you mean being irrationally negative to the idea for some reason other than they don't like the idea.
What I can see is people expressing a range of opinions, giving reasons for those opinions, and engaging with other people.
We each have our own reasons for coming to the Ship. In general, I come to find out what other people think about things and to firm up my own thinking on stuff I don't know a lot about.
For those reasons, I have very little interest in 1:1 combat as described here.
I don't see that as negative. I was (implicitly at least, by the fact that is was being discussed on an open thread) asked for my opinion; I gave it; I read and thought about other people's posts and responded.
I can't imagine it's going to make the slightest bit of difference to my Ship experience, so I have no reason to be negative about it. However if I have an opinion about something that's being discussed on an open thread I'm going to post it if I want to take part.
It has surprised me to learn that anyone thinks that 'winning' an argument on here means anything much. Most arguments on discussion boards eventually die through lack of interest, however lively they are at the start, and there is no way of knowing what the majority of people who read threads on SoF thing about it because they don't post an opinion.
Therefore I don't actually think a discussion board is a format where you can say objectively who has 'won' or 'lost'.
If that is negative, it's not meant to be - I'm just disagreeing with you.
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i-church
Online Mission and Ministry
Posts: 6634 | From: Coventry, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
However, I was being a bit distracted by being buried under a dogpile in Styx. A fair one, of course. There are only fair dogpiles on the Ship, as we have learned.
So you define a dogpile as "more than one person disagreeing with me", is that it? Because a lot of us don't like this idea (and very few of us do) you're being dogpiled?
Well sorry mate, but that's how discussion in a community works. Everyone gets to have their say, even when it doesn't agree with yours.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
So you define a dogpile as "more than one person disagreeing with me", is that it?
You're pretending to be obtuse.
Being dogpiled is like knowing Christ's Love. If you haven't experienced it, you don't know what the fuck you're on about, and have no opinion.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
A perusal of various Hell threads shows that you also start what you now want to call 'dogpiles', Yorick, for instance in your chicken fuckers thread where you started the theme of calling Numpty a cunt in return for his twat posts to you.
Now either there have been some amazing Damascene conversions going on, or there's some amazing mismatch going on here between behaviour and rhetoric.
It seems to me that the people who shout loudest about dogpiles are the people who behave worst in Hell. When called on their behaviour they then point the fingers at everyone else.
L.
[ 14. October 2010, 11:00: Message edited by: Louise ]
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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.
Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
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Arrietty
Ship's borrower
# 45
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Being dogpiled is like knowing Christ's Love. If you haven't experienced it, you don't know what the fuck you're on about, and have no opinion.
Maybe someone on MAAN could sort out the definition of dogpile - it seems to mean what anyone wants it to mean at the moment.
I've certainly had the experience where a dispute between me and somebody else has suddenly drawn in the usual suspects who appear to be using the opportunity to settle some other score with me. My own measure of whether it's an actual dogpile is when certain people turn up with posts along the lines of 'People are mad at you because you are not an exemplary Ship member like what I am' - but again, that's subjective.
Nowadays I just tend to think that people whose self worth resides in how popular they are on a discussion board probably need all the affirmation they can get, so I just go away and do something more productive for a few days till everyone's moved on to the next excitement.
I have joined in existing arguments myself, so I guess that could be classed as me being a dogpiler, so being dogpiled (if that's what it was) myself from time to time seems legitimate even if it doesn't feel subjectively fair.
The more the term is used though the less sure I am that we have a common understanding of what it means. The thread you gave as an example didn't, by your own admission, read like that with hindsight.
[ 14. October 2010, 11:13: Message edited by: Arrietty ]
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i-church
Online Mission and Ministry
Posts: 6634 | From: Coventry, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
I’m truly fascinated by the negativity here.
Would anyone care to be honest enough to admit they actually want to see the MAAN board fail?
Why? Would you like to invite them to talk it through with you mano e mano on the MAAN board?
This thread - and in consequence the duelling board - came out of the Evensong Hell thread. As an example of how this will work, if such a duelling board had been in existence at the time how would the Evensong thing have been handled by the application of MAAN?
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
A perusal of various Hell threads shows that you also start what you now want to call 'dogpiles', Yorick
No, you're wrong: I didn’t start a dogpile, I called the chicken fuckers to Hell. The dogpile happened when all the dogpilers dogpiled. I don’t do dogpiles. In fact, IIRC, I tried my best to limit the dogpiling on that very thread by standing up for CMN.
That's why I like the idea of the MAAN thread so much, see?
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98
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Posted
Clever move, Yorick.
If there aren't any shipmates who "dog-pile", then your provocative OPs would have quickly sunk to the bottom, no?
Thus, the fact that shipmates showed up and posted shows that "dog-piling" does exist.
Sadly, I think the third alternative is that yes, sometimes shipmates wander through Hell and simply add to the chorus for the fun of it (which I think is the accurate definition of "dog-pile"). I personally disagree that the majority of posters on active Hell threads are intentionally dog-piling.
On the other hand, if you were posting provocative OPs expecting a dog-pile...
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
I swear to God – if we didn’t look to be busy in the office today, I'd start a Hell Thread about Yorick just to encourage all and sundry to jump in with their opinion. I’m sure it would go viral.
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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Well sorry mate, but that's how discussion in a community works. Everyone gets to have their say, even when it doesn't agree with yours.
What we see here is not how discussions work in any "real world" community. It is a pure artifact of the board environment, which allows everyone to post a comment whenever they wish. In the "real world", discussion time is a scarce commodity. Hence it gets distributed appropriately. Typically, you have a "statement - response" format, which alternates between speakers from different camps. Sometimes a speaker fields several questions, but rarely more than two or three at once. And the usual response to overwhelming contrary opinion is either to grant more (not less) speaking time to the defender, or to simply break off the discussion as pointless.
The only "real world" format I can think of where one sees something like the dogpiling that is common here is the show trial. If you would read aloud the last 10 pages of this thread, it would indeed sound a lot like a show trial at times. And if I may say so, the "defenders" in this case (including yours truly) were not particularly slack or cowed.
Now, I do not want to make a moral case out of this. A show trial is evil, but as I've said, I think most dogpiling is an artifact of how forums work. Yet just because nobody is typically culpable for the dogpile does not mean that it has no ill effects on the one getting buried by it, or for that matter, on the overall quality of the discussion.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
I didn’t realize ‘quality of discussion’ was an issue in Hell.
Whatever may be the standard of Hell discussions, you play no small part in setting it. However, Marvin and I were chatting about the preceding Styx dogpile.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Whatever may be the standard of Hell discussions, you play no small part in setting it.
Actually these days it’s more Yorick and Silver Faux.
Bad money drives out good.
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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
I think you should call me to Hell, Sine. You're obviously desperate to vent. Or something.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
The only "real world" format I can think of where one sees something like the dogpiling that is common here is the show trial.
I can think of an actual real world format where stuff like this thread happens all the time: a committee meeting. Imagine that one of the committee members puts forward a radical and innovative idea that none of the rest of the committee thinks is particularly good or necessary. What would you see happening? The member puts forward their idea, and then the rest of the committee have the chance to say what they think of it. All of them have that chance, and to say that only one of the other committee members should be allowed to disagree would be ludicrous.
I think a transcript of such a committee meeting would end up looking VERY like this thread, but would you say such a meeting was a dogpile just because all the committee members wanted to say what they thought of the idea?
[ 14. October 2010, 14:40: Message edited by: Marvin the Martian ]
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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duchess
Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liberty:
IngoB, I looked at the hell thread and found no-one else that supports the idea. There are a few on the MAAN board though
Not counting people on the MAAN board who say they will try the idea, but don't actually think its a good one, you're at 7.5:
Eliab,
AristonA
Numpty (half)
Yorick
Scarlet
MattBlack
IngoB
DuoSeraphim
I guess its good for you that numbers can mean diddlysquat here.
But if I find out any of my Farmville crops have died while I took the time to do this, I'll... I'll... I'll... ah crap, I'll probably just eat chocolate and cry like a baby.
A list done once again to gauge something. Is this helpful? Depends.
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♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮
Ship of Fools-World Party
Posts: 11197 | From: Do you know the way? | Registered: May 2002
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I think a transcript of such a committee meeting would end up looking VERY like this thread, but would you say such a meeting was a dogpile just because all the committee members wanted to say what they thought of the idea?
Except that in any formal (usually large) committee somebody would be presiding, and that person would cut off such discussions quickly - usually by pointing out that there are another dozen points or so that need discussing, or by invoking the ultimate weapon, the subcommittee. If the chairman is really good, they will instantly turn the nonsensical suggestions into plenty of extra work for the speaker. Instant shut up.
Whereas in any informal (usually small) committee, people would generally know each other well and know that they have to work with each other day after day. So people would not be hammering each other and typically bend backwards to find some compromise. In the worst case, they would inwardly groan, let the person have their say, agree noncommittally, and then make sure that the nonsense gets comprehensively ignored in practice (and if possible that the person gets shipped to outer Siberia).
If you try to pass off this thread as a transcript of a committee meeting, then the universal reaction will be "WTF happened there?" Nobody has discussions like this in professional life, or if they do, then you can bet that they are busy at night making copies of their CV at the company's expense...
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Loquacious beachcomber
Shipmate
# 8783
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Whatever may be the standard of Hell discussions, you play no small part in setting it.
Actually these days it’s more Yorick and Silver Faux.
Bad money drives out good.
Now, Sine; don't be shy; I have started a thread in Hell just so that you can explore that thought more thoroughly.
And I can respond more appropriately.
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TODAY'S SPECIAL - AND SO ARE YOU (Sign on beachfront fish & chips shop)
Posts: 5954 | From: Southeast of Wawa, between the beach and the hiking trail.. | Registered: Nov 2004
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
Are we still talking about "dogpiling" here? OK, fine.
Let me explain it to you, as it really is, once and for all.
What there is, by virtue of the grand power of this parallel media, is that there can be great bandwidth of conversation. Much of the time, this is a feature. However, finite beings that we are, it can sometimes get to feel like too much and we have an emotional buffer overrun. Annoyingly, we're also leaky emotional beings, and there is a common tendency to project motivations onto others - in these cases, to suit our internal experience of being beset upon.
Thus, the cries of "dogpiling" are mostly just a base rate fallacy. Are there occasional posters who conspicuously belly-flop onto the fat part of the conversational bandwidth just to be dicks? Yes. But their cumulative effect is actually minute, and the vast majority of participants are just independent individuals who are just trying to engage in conversation. Which is the whole point of this place's existence.
And that's not going to change.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
RooK would be a good committee chair.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
Just an observation--I've never understood why Shipmates* who are perfectly capable of ignoring inconvenient posts on every other board which make good points against their stated position in debate are suddenly incapable of using a scroll wheel when in Hell, and pay attention to every single contribution from the most prolific to the most obscure Shipmates.
* I would say "you know who you are..." but I suspect you don't. The rest of us know who you are, however.
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
So, IngoB, if 3 or 4 people on a call-to-Hell thread post disparaging things about the callee, should the host, acting as chair of the committee meeting, say, "Yep, he's an asshole, let's move on to the rest of the agenda"?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Nobody has discussions like this in professional life
Well, very few people in professional life will claim out of the blue that a significant part of their business is inherently disordered and propose a solution to that problem which requires fundamentally changing the way everything works, while virtually everybody else in the company can't see a problem at all and actually quite likes how that part of the business works.
And furthermore, the few people who do do that are usually right at the top of the corporate heirarchy, rather than being fairly low ranking.
You've got to compare like with like, even in hypothetical situations and similies.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
If the chairman is really good, they will instantly turn the nonsensical suggestions into plenty of extra work for the speaker. Instant shut up.
A-HA!
IngoB, this is exactly the trick that I learned when I ventured into local politics (though I didn't have the luxury of doing it as chair of a formal meeting). When someone assaulted me after a public meeting with all their various complaints, my response would be:
"Hey, you have a legitimate concern. But I'm sorry, I just don't have the time to do the ground work. Tell you what: you go out, organize some people and set up a way to do it, I'll be behind you 100% when you bring it to the Board for approval and/or funding."
Over six years, no one who approached me ever followed through.
But you have done it here and you didn't even have to do a bit of work yourself. You managed to get Erin and Rook to do the work of making the board that you wanted.
I suspect you are very happy and self-satisfied.
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
He didn't have to do a bit of work himself? Are you kidding? Have you noticed his posts, discussing the setting up of and running of the MAAN board?
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
A perusal of various Hell threads shows that you also start what you now want to call 'dogpiles', Yorick
No, you're wrong: I didn’t start a dogpile, I called the chicken fuckers to Hell. The dogpile happened when all the dogpilers dogpiled. I don’t do dogpiles. In fact, IIRC, I tried my best to limit the dogpiling on that very thread by standing up for CMN.
That's why I like the idea of the MAAN thread so much, see?
You're not fooling anyone but yourself with this stuff.
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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.
Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
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jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98
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Posted
x-posted!
quote:
Originally posted by jlg:
...you have done it here and you didn't even have to do a bit of work yourself...
ETA: I take it back. You did a lot of work writing all those posts over all these years.
[ 14. October 2010, 16:27: Message edited by: jlg ]
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jlg:
But you have done it here and you didn't even have to do a bit of work yourself. You managed to get Erin and Rook to do the work of making the board that you wanted. I suspect you are very happy and self-satisfied.
I didn't get the board that I wanted. Of course, another common committee technique is to ask big to receive small (and to suck dick to receive big, but let's not go there...). However, I didn't do so here, at least not consciously. I have supported the duel stuff because it was once my idea. And I really like my ideas, like children. All of them. Well, some I eventually kill quietly and bury them in the backyard. But I like this one for now.
I've never called anyone to Hell, and I doubt that I will ever call anyone to a duel. I used to think that this was because I had virtuous principles, but I doubt that now. It just never seemed necessary.
Furthermore, I expect that Erin and RooK are clever enough to have their own agenda. Probably I should watch my back. But then I know a deep, deep secret about the Ship, so I sleep easy...
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
I should add: I might try to call someone to a Purgatorial duel on MAAN. With seconds. That I would enjoy. Actually, what I really feel like doing is seconding in defense of something I disagree with it. That idea tickles me no end...
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
I’m truly fascinated by the negativity here.
Would anyone care to be honest enough to admit they actually want to see the MAAN board fail?
Why? Would you like to invite them to talk it through with you mano e mano on the MAAN board?
This thread - and in consequence the duelling board - came out of the Evensong Hell thread. As an example of how this will work, if such a duelling board had been in existence at the time how would the Evensong thing have been handled by the application of MAAN?
Once again - I expect it was accidentally overlooked - but I think it would be a good practical example to answer the question I put, so the MAAN skeptics can see how it can be applied.
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Actually, what I really feel like doing is seconding in defense of something I disagree with it. That idea tickles me no end...
I'm not a fan of the "Men are from Mars..." school of gender difference, but I have to say that your tickle spot is obviously located on a different planet from mine.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
What we see here is not how discussions work in any "real world" community. It is a pure artifact of the board environment, which allows everyone to post a comment whenever they wish. In the "real world", discussion time is a scarce commodity. Hence it gets distributed appropriately. Typically, you have a "statement - response" format, which alternates between speakers from different camps. Sometimes a speaker fields several questions, but rarely more than two or three at once. And the usual response to overwhelming contrary opinion is either to grant more (not less) speaking time to the defender, or to simply break off the discussion as pointless.
You've just articulated perfectly why it's completely wrong to see a message board discussion in the same terms as a 'real world' one, and to interpret it in 'real world' terms if a lot of people all say similar things in quick succession.
It's one of the most basic facts about internet conversation that there is no orderly queue. It seems to me that some of this discussion has been about people wanting to impose a more rigid sense of order on a process that naturally doesn't have it.
[ 14. October 2010, 20:57: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Actually, what I really feel like doing is seconding in defense of something I disagree with it. That idea tickles me no end...
I'm not a fan of the "Men are from Mars..." school of gender difference, but I have to say that your tickle spot is obviously located on a different planet from mine.
I don't know why gender difference even came to mind. My tickle spot is exactly where IngoB's is.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I should add: I might try to call someone to a Purgatorial duel on MAAN. With seconds. That I would enjoy. Actually, what I really feel like doing is seconding in defense of something I disagree with it. That idea tickles me no end...
Spoken like a true debate team master. (That's a Good Thing.)
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Can someone in favour of this concept explain to me what the purpose is of making a 1-on-1 argument visible to the entire Ship?
The actual argument can already be done via PM. I don't currently perceive the benefit of allowing the same thing to be done in front of a non-participatory viewing audience.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Liberty
ship's football fanatic
# 713
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Posted
Orfeo: having read all of this thread, the one in hell and the ones in MAAD I can confidently say that no, noone can tell you, or anyone else, why it all needs to be public rather than by PM.
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"I'ma be what I set out to be, without a doubt, undoubtedly"
Posts: 1879 | From: SW2 to 20009 | Registered: Jul 2001
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jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98
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Posted
[cross post with liberty]
It's supposed to be educational, orfeo. Or perhaps edifying. Anyway, I think either us plebes and/or the PTBs are supposed derive something meaningful from it.
Or maybe the two people fighting are supposed to derive the meaningfulness.
Or... well, actually I'm not sure who, but it seems some people are supposed to end up educated or edified or derive something. I think.
[ 14. October 2010, 23:26: Message edited by: jlg ]
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Having read more of the pages on this thread, I'm reinforced in the view I expressed earlier. This proposal involves people wanting to make some pretty fundamental changes to the nature of internet communication.
The internet does understand the idea of 'private' communication as well as 'public' communication. But this proposal is to conduct private communication in public.
I've been trying to think of some parallel examples, and there indeed are some instances I can think of where content can be viewed by all, but only added to by some.
The only parallel that makes any kind of functional sense, though, is almost what's already on the Ship: message boards with restricted membership.
After all, if people are conceiving of an opt-in system within the wider Ship...
It is possible to construct a message board that is 'semi-private', ie that while membership/posting rights are restricted, viewing is not. This is unusual, but not unheard of. And it's about the only way I can see this idea working.
(Please note, this doesn't mean I think it's a good idea. There's a difference.)
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Can someone in favour of this concept explain to me what the purpose is of making a 1-on-1 argument visible to the entire Ship?
The actual argument can already be done via PM. I don't currently perceive the benefit of allowing the same thing to be done in front of a non-participatory viewing audience.
It can be justified for the same reasons that we have seen dogpiling justified- that there is a broader, community interest in the personal dispute, in which there are many stakeholders. The justification for making a personal argument public is therefore the public interest. The justification for having the MAAN thread as well as Hell is that it gives the adjuvant opportunity for that personal argument to take place without public interference, which often precludes resolution.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
...The justification for making a personal argument public is therefore the public interest.
I have to admit I can now see the logical consistency of that. The case has been made, let us see the practice.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15
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Posted
It's a good argument for allowing participants in a dispute to disclose their reconciliation - as Yorick and Numpty did. But there are other ways of doing this, as Yorick and Numpty have already demonstrated. Seeing reconciliation in action is a Good Thing, and is the only cogent argument that's been put forward.
But it's an argument in favour of disclosing reconciliation, not of a separate Board. Yorick himself has put forward the justification of "entertainment" for such a board. If that was put forward in any seriousness, some may take the "public interst" arugments to be a little, even if unwittingly, disingenuous.
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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt
Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
... The justification for having the MAAN thread as well as Hell is that it gives the adjuvant opportunity for that personal argument to take place without public interference, which often precludes resolution.
If the "adjuvant" hasn't the focus and discipline to ignore the peanut gallery while resolving their dispute, no new board rules are likely to save them.
Help me! I'm showered with goobers and can't get up!
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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