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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Styx: Rook - Could it be true? hell thread
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
Do you know what the answser to "Please provide a Welsh Ship of Fools" would be?
Yes. Try to justify the need for it, and try to demonstrate the benefits.
Look, I can see that lots of people, like you, cannot imagine the benefits of a duel board. I can. I've tried to explain how I feel it might be a general benefit, but I certainly can't make you imagine it. That may be because I'm an inadequate articulator or a fanciful imaginator, or because you're all inadequate imaginators and better articulators than what I are. Either way, I know when I'm banging my head against the wall because I get a headache.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
For the same reasons that people currently take their disagreements to Hell. So that the community can see what they're disagreeing about, and why.
So the desire for a captive audience? I don't see that it's in the communities interests to observe without participating. I can understand why some posters might enjoy the audience, but that's a different issue.
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
If they're better able to achieve resolution without external interference, so much the better for everyone, I'd have thought.
That's a big if. I would have thought a better yet way of achieving resolution would be by pm, with neither the interference of outside posters butting in, nor the playing to the gallery and rhetorical flourish that an audience would encourage.
In real life, if I have a serious wish to resolve a conflict I do it in private. If I can't and it relates to a group, there may need to be a wider meeting, but that includes participation. The group can only assist in conflict resolution by participating.
[ 13. October 2010, 11:41: Message edited by: mdijon ]
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
probably the only major proposal in many years ... community is perfectly comforable with ideas being brought forward ... butterfly of creativity is systematically crushed
You know, I can almost connect the dots there. But I'm too busy right now dealing with a wave of negative responses.
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
IngoB, isn't refusing to discuss whether the existing solution is better or worse than the new one being proposed kind of missing the point?!
No, because neither I nor RooK suggested that this is about replacing Hell at this point in time. RooK said it will never do that, and I said it might if it proves sufficiently popular. But for now, all that would happen is that Shipmates would vote with their feet.
Anyway, I'll trade whatever stake I may be seen as having in the duel board idea for the establishment of an official "experimental" board on the main boards, where new ideas suggested by Shipmates will regularly be given a chance to prove themselves. I mean a new fixture, not just some temporary means of shutting me up. A place where stuff can be trialed on the big stage, with regular calls for novel ideas.
If such a thing be established, I will pledge Euro 100,- for an "ideas" competition. The details of that competition I don't care about, perhaps part of the money should be a prize for the best suggestion, perhaps all of it should go to the Ship. Whatever. Just get people doing new things.
There, that's my money where my mouth is. And now I really have to get back to work.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
Bravo. I'll match that pledge.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I don't see that it's in the communities interests to observe without participating.
I think it would serve the community if the personal argument were resolved publicly. A few months ago, I had a very public fight with Call Me Numpty about comments he made to me in a PM. Although there was a heated exchange in Hell, we actually resolved our differences by PM. He apologised to me privately, and we subsequently agreed that I should post his apology for the community to see it. I did, and several people commented that this was a good thing.
If that entire exchange had taken place in a duel thread, I’m convinced it would have been better for Numpty, for me, and for all the rest of you people. Without a massive Hell thread, there would have been less bandwidth use, less hosting demand, and possibly less general disaffection.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
Isn't the lesson that it would have been better for the entire exchange to have been by PM in the first place?
Even if you'd done it on a limited-participation thread, we'd all have commented about it somewhere else.
[ 13. October 2010, 12:34: Message edited by: mdijon ]
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
You know, I....a.m...too...negative....
See, I can misrepresent people by using ellipses as well. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
To be clear, what are you and Yorick offering - 200 Euro for a permanent board where people can put forward and work out ideas for improving the Ship?
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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt
Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Anyway, I'll trade whatever stake I may be seen as having in the duel board idea for the establishment of an official "experimental" board on the main boards, where new ideas suggested by Shipmates will regularly be given a chance to prove themselves. I mean a new fixture, not just some temporary means of shutting me up. A place where stuff can be trialed on the big stage, with regular calls for novel ideas.
How many Shipmates do you expect will have such ideas? How regular do you suppose they will be? And how many of them do you seriously expect will even be worthy of a trial run 'on the big stage'?
I mean, people are perfectly free to suggest new things right now, but very few do. Sometimes the things they suggest are taken up and implemented, like the Gallery or The Circus. Sometimes they're not, like renaming Dead Horses. Bottom line: there already exists a procedure for Shipmates to suggest new ideas for the Ship, and it falls to you to explain why that procedure is in need of such drastic amendment.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Isn't the lesson that it would have been better for the entire exchange to have been by PM in the first place?
Even if you'd done it on a limited-participation thread, we'd all have commented about it somewhere else.
Ah, but the tsunami of comments wouldn't interfere directly with the actual argument and its resolution, since it could be ignored by both parties. The benefit to the community would be that it could observe the exchange, and the benefit to the individuals would be that it wouldn't disrupt it.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15
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Posted
But you've already created a perfectly good model for achieving this - you and Numpty sorted your differences and then, by mutual agreement, made that public. You didn't need a separate, privileged board for that.
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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt
Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
The benefit to the community would be that it could observe the exchange
Enabling voyeurism isn't quite what I'd call a benefit. One is reminded of the old quote: "just because the public is interested in something doesn't mean it's in the public interest".
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
But you've already created a perfectly good model for achieving this - you and Numpty sorted your differences and then, by mutual agreement, made that public. You didn't need a separate, privileged board for that.
Yes, but while that was happening there were at least two people repeatedly calling me a cunt specifically because I'm a Calvinist. One has apologised; the other hasn't. I think we're talking about avoiding that type of thing on top of the original argument.
[ 13. October 2010, 13:33: Message edited by: Call me Numpty ]
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
Several people on this thread – and I won’t name them because I don’t want to cause them unnecessary suffering and distress – seem to think that the issue is other people disagreeing with them in, one supposes, an intellectual sort of way that might be resolved through frank and open discussion in a controlled environment.
Generally when I disagree with someone on the Ship in an intellectual sort of way I was just say to myself ‘what a moron’ and go on about my business. It’s when I deeply and sincerely loathe them as human beings I’m forced to share the planet with that I need some release or outlet. And for that there’s nothing to beat a good old-fashioned Hell Call with the traditional peanut gallery, dog-piling, and Mousethief Coolers.
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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
The benefit to the community would be that it could observe the exchange
Enabling voyeurism isn't quite what I'd call a benefit. One is reminded of the old quote: "just because the public is interested in something doesn't mean it's in the public interest".
Yes, but simply ignoring the antics of the peanut gallery in its current form doesn't help either. It's a bit like refusing to do any CRB checks for fear of finding out that someone shouldn't be a Sunday School teacher.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
But you've already created a perfectly good model for achieving this - you and Numpty sorted your differences and then, by mutual agreement, made that public. You didn't need a separate, privileged board for that.
Yes, but while that was happening there were at least two people repeatedly calling me a cunt specifically because I'm a Calvinist. One has apologised; the other hasn't. I think we're talking about avoiding that type of thing on top of the original argument.
Precisely. What started off as a personal dispute between Yorick and Numpty then got hijacked by at least two others who had no particular axe to grind in that dispute wading in and being gratuitously abusive. It's that kind of phenomenon that I would like to see discouraged.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
...then got hijacked by at least two others who had no particular axe to grind in that dispute wading in and being gratuitously abusive.
That’s your opinion. They obviously felt they did have an axe to grind. Why is your opinion ‘more better’? How can you possibly know?
(Many a Hell Call has backfired on the callee when the community felt it was uncalled for or unjustified. But apparently there are those who feel they know better than the community.)
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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Because it was unnecessary: it had absolutely jack to do with the dispute between Yorick and Numpty and therefore was irrelevant to the thread and was just - to my mind - another example of the peanut gallery being nasty for the sake of it.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Either that or chimed in on Yorick's thread with details of the conduct of Numpty's to which they objected (hint: that does not involve calling him a Calvinist cunt).
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
But ‘Calvinist cunt’ would have been okay, had it been on the ‘Numpty is a Calvinist Cunt’ thread, one presumes.
(Of course the hosts might get annoyed if there were four or five Numpty threads running simultaneously.)
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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Yes, but there should have been particulars of why Numpty had been an (alleged) Calvinist cunt, not a bare accusation/ insult flung out apparently baselessly and conveniently because others were taking a pop at him.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15
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Posted
So, I suggest once more that the actual substance of this discussion is not "let's set up a special new type of board for 'duelling'", but rather "Please, PTB, can we have no dog-piling rule."
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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt
Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
I can see it now -- fifteen threads on MAAN (which is totally what it will be called if it happens) challenging the asshole du jour. Which I have to admit is an idea I find hugely entertaining and almost makes me want to go set it up right freaking now.
However, I want to repeat a point that Arrietty made a couple of pages back, and I am directing this specifically at IngoB, Yorick and Numpty:
quote:
The whole idea seems to be rooted in the idea of having 'winners' and 'losers' which ISTM is inimical to the aims of the SoF boards which are about discussion - everyone who thinks they have a dog in the fight gets a say, and H & A s are there to ensure things all participants are playing by the rules.
All of your rhetoric aside, I have no objection to making changes when they enhance the forum experience for the majority of posters. Right now I'm convinced this is for the benefit of a few to the detriment of many. If this is just another means to vanquish your foes, rather than engage in discussion, say so now.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
You know, if I were going to suggest a change to the Hell board, one that would tend to limit hurtful dog-piling while still respecting the apparent need of other members of the community to chime in, I think I would suggest that the PTB restore Hell's peanut gallery. The setting up of deck chairs, the selling of peanuts and cashews, that sort of thing.
I know it annoyed the hosts. But it gave people who were interested in the argument, but not a part of it, a way to say, "I'm here, I'm watching, and I have an interest in the outcome. I'm a member of this community, so I have a reason to be here, but I don't have a dog in this particular fight."
I think that visible presence of the peanut gallery had a number of beneficial effects. It told the caller, "People aren't calling you a jerk, but they're not jumping in on your side, either. Are you sure what you're expressing here is righteous indignation? Or maybe what you're upset about isn't that big a deal."
I think the presence of the peanut gallery told the callee, "People aren't chiming in with the OP, but they're not coming out on your side, either. So maybe the OP isn't that big a deal -- but the OPer is upset. Maybe you should offer a soft answer rather than responding in kind."
For both the caller and the callee, it reminds them that others are watching, and that they are part of a community, and that the thoughts and feelings of other members of the community matter, and that the other members of the community care about how the argument is conducted and about how it is resolved.
I think that, because it is a community, there are certainly times when many members of the community are seriously offended and want to have their chance to express that offense. But sometimes, because it's a community, people just want to show up when there's something going on. Setting up deck chairs allows them to do that, without needing to say anything to either the caller or the callee. Their need to be there is met, without the need to pile on.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Yes, but there should have been particulars of why Numpty had been an (alleged) Calvinist cunt, not a bare accusation/ insult flung out apparently baselessly and conveniently because others were taking a pop at him.
Would justifying the insult have made it okay then? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Tubbs
[ 13. October 2010, 14:48: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Sounds good to me.
[reply to Josephine. To Tubbs: it would at least have provided the comment with a context, rather than raise the suspicion that the poster though, "Oh look, some of the regular Hellions are having a go at Numpty; I'll join in and let fly with something gross and abusive because I can get away with it here."]
[ 13. October 2010, 14:49: Message edited by: Matt Black ]
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
Right now I'm convinced this is for the benefit of a few to the detriment of many. If this is just another means to vanquish your foes, rather than engage in discussion, say so now.
I would hope it would make engagement in a proper discussion of the actual issues giving rise to the disagreement rather easier, because that’s exactly what can be so fucking difficult on a Hell call in which the peanut gallery are swamping the dispute with flung shit. I seriously doubt there would be any vanquishing of foes, but I’d hope and expect the results of a duel would be compromise and/or agreement to differ, if it were run with that intention. It seems likely this sort of resolution would be more achievable in a duel thread than in a Hell dogpile, which I think tends to make people more intransigent and less willing to accept another’s point of view. And such resolution, it is hoped, would be best for everyone.
It’s what Jesus would do.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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jedijudy
Organist of the Jedi Temple
# 333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
But I'll ignore any further comments how Hell is so much better than a duel as being besides the points that interest me.
So this is really just all about you? If a MAAN board shows up, will you point to all and sundry informing them that it was all your idea?
Yup, this seems just a potential wet dream for so many reasons.
[preview post is my friend]
[ 13. October 2010, 14:54: Message edited by: jedijudy ]
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Jasmine, little cat with a big heart.
Posts: 18017 | From: 'Twixt the 'Glades and the Gulf | Registered: Aug 2001
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
I think I would suggest that the PTB restore Hell's peanut gallery.
I'm confused. Isn't there still a peanut gallery on Hell threads? People who show up to say "Oh, this should be good" or "Here I am with my peanuts," etc.?
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
Right now I'm convinced this is for the benefit of a few to the detriment of many. If this is just another means to vanquish your foes, rather than engage in discussion, say so now.
I would hope it would make engagement in a proper discussion of the actual issues giving rise to the disagreement rather easier, because that’s exactly what can be so fucking difficult on a Hell call in which the peanut gallery are swamping the dispute with flung shit. I seriously doubt there would be any vanquishing of foes, but I’d hope and expect the results of a duel would be compromise and/or agreement to differ, if it were run with that intention. It seems likely this sort of resolution would be more achievable in a duel thread than in a Hell dogpile, which I think tends to make people more intransigent and less willing to accept another’s point of view. And such resolution, it is hoped, would be best for everyone.
But what if I just don't like you?
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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
I think I would suggest that the PTB restore Hell's peanut gallery.
I'm confused. Isn't there still a peanut gallery on Hell threads? People who show up to say "Oh, this should be good" or "Here I am with my peanuts," etc.?
Yep. Now try to imagine what it was like before it was clamped down on ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
To be clear, what are you and Yorick offering - 200 Euro for a permanent board where people can put forward and work out ideas for improving the Ship?
No. What I had in mind is a board, let's call it MAAN then, where one actually runs board experiments. People can put forward and work out ideas in Styx. However, every quarter of a year, or perhaps every half of a year, I want the H&As to decide: "Well, let's see how this one works in practice now." Merely for sake of argument, let's say MAAN turns into a duel board for a quarter/half year or so. After that, we can talk about how good or bad it was. If it was really, really good, it might get established on the main boards. If not, then it's bye, bye.
Yet MAAN always remains, and runs a new experiment a short while after. Maybe it functions as a board about prayer next (another idea I have floated before). Or it runs as a board that works like Purgatory but explicitly allows tangents. Or it will be a board in which all discussion has to be in haiku form. Or it will be a feminist theology board. Or it will be board dedicated to flower arrangements in liturgical practice. Or whatever else gets the vote as interesting enough to try.
In short, I hope to see a lab for board experiments, with an explicit plan to actually run new experiments regularly there. Thus the question should not be whether we will run an experiment, but rather which one. I think this will completely change the dynamics of the discussion. Nobody will feel particularly threatened by an experiment, if they know that some experiment is always running anyhow and almost all of them will disappear again shortly as not making the cut.
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
All of your rhetoric aside, I have no objection to making changes when they enhance the forum experience for the majority of posters. Right now I'm convinced this is for the benefit of a few to the detriment of many. If this is just another means to vanquish your foes, rather than engage in discussion, say so now.
I'm not getting the "detriment of many" part. It seems rather simple to ignore a duel board if one doesn't like it, in particular if Hell is still around. I have never called anyone to Hell myself. I have on occasion played part in a dogpile, but I tend to get Purgatorial on these occasions rather quickly. I "vanquish my foes" in Purgatory, if at all.
quote:
Originally posted by jedijudy:
So this is really just all about you? If a MAAN board shows up, will you point to all and sundry informing them that it was all your idea? Yup, this seems just a potential wet dream for so many reasons.
So here is a nice example why I think we need an experimental board. Such ad hominem attacks contribute nothing to anything and really are just pure "tall poppy syndrome". If however there was an experimental board, then nobody would have to justify their desire to try this or that out. It would become normal to think creatively and suggest new things.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
But what if I just don't like you?
Then take it to the MAAN board.
We can work it out, Sine. I don't want to walk away from everything we have. We just need to talk.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
How many Shipmates do you expect will have such ideas? How regular do you suppose they will be? And how many of them do you seriously expect will even be worthy of a trial run 'on the big stage'?
I expect that a considerable number of Shipmates will put in plenty of suggestions, if they know for sure that one of them will be tried. That's just human nature. I do think one can do this every half of a year, or even quarter of a year, without exhausting the creativity that is out there.
As for how worthy most ideas will be, I have no idea. But I would say that the Ship can invest a bit more in being quirky and perhaps even foolish on occasion. My point is precisely to relax the guard a bit: in a sandbox. Maybe things go bang, maybe they snuff out with a whimper. But isn't it simply interesting to see if and how they do? And now and then you will strike gold, I'm sure of that.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Yet MAAN always remains, and runs a new experiment a short while after. Maybe it functions as a board about prayer next (another idea I have floated before). Or it runs as a board that works like Purgatory but explicitly allows tangents. Or it will be a board in which all discussion has to be in haiku form. Or it will be a feminist theology board. Or it will be board dedicated to flower arrangements in liturgical practice. Or whatever else gets the vote as interesting enough to try.
My first observation is that boards for all of those things already exist. Circus, Circus, Purg, Eccles.
My second is that such an ever-changing board would be an absolute bitch to host.
And my third observation is that running "board experiments" just for the sheer hell of it is silly. It's not meeting any needs or responding to any criticisms, it's just change for the sake of change. Would you have a certain room of your house which you completely redecorate four times a year just to see if you like the new style better than the previous ones?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Such ad hominem attacks contribute nothing to anything and really are just pure "tall poppy syndrome".
Or perhaps not...
quote:
"But he hasn't got anything on," a little child said.
"Did you ever hear such innocent prattle?" said its father. And one person whispered to another what the child had said, "He hasn't anything on. A child says he hasn't anything on."
"But he hasn't got anything on!" the whole town cried out at last.
The Emperor shivered, for he suspected they were right. But he thought, "This procession has got to go on." So he walked more proudly than ever, as his noblemen held high the train that wasn't there at all.
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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
But what if I just don't like you?
Then take it to the MAAN board.
But what if lots of people don’t like you?
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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
I'm not interested in them, Sine. I'm only interested in you.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Yet MAAN always remains, and runs a new experiment a short while after. Maybe it functions as a board about prayer next (another idea I have floated before). Or it runs as a board that works like Purgatory but explicitly allows tangents. Or it will be a board in which all discussion has to be in haiku form. Or it will be a feminist theology board. Or it will be board dedicated to flower arrangements in liturgical practice. Or whatever else gets the vote as interesting enough to try.
My first observation is that boards for all of those things already exist. Circus, Circus, Purg, Eccles.
My second is that such an ever-changing board would be an absolute bitch to host.
And my third observation is that running "board experiments" just for the sheer hell of it is silly. It's not meeting any needs or responding to any criticisms, it's just change for the sake of change. Would you have a certain room of your house which you completely redecorate four times a year just to see if you like the new style better than the previous ones?
No but I imagine you'd want to redecorate if someone had been scrawling profanities and pejoratives all over your freshly painted walls. The suggestion isn't to try something new 'for the sheer hell of it'; it's to try a different (perhaps fairer) way of dealing very real times of conflict and disagreement.
[ 13. October 2010, 16:14: Message edited by: Call me Numpty ]
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
I'm not interested in them, Sine. I'm only interested in you.
Well let me just posit that if all those (theoretical) people who don’t like you are rushing to ‘Much Ado about Nothing’ to tell you how much they (theoretically) don’t like you it would have a startling resemblance to the already existing...wait for it...HELL BOARD. Except with more threads.
Always glad to to hear when civilization makes progress.
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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
You're just not getting it, are you, Sine? If all the people who don't like me could sit down and talk to me about it, without interruptions and interference from all the other people who don't like me, and I could therefore engage in a sensible discussion with them about all the issues that make me so unlikeable, there is almost certainly gonna be a better chance of our dealing with their criticisms and reaching some sort of resolution than if, say, they all started piling in on a Hell thread and telling me how much they dislike me for the sole reason of making their dislike clear to me and to everyone else and with no intention of resolving anything except their desperate need to vent their dislike.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
Hey, no need to get all optimistist. I can't help it. I try to be a world-weary cynical old naysayer, but I just can't.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
Yeah, the problem with optimism is that one is so often disappointed in people.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Yeah, the problem with optimism is that one is so often disappointed in people.
That's because you're trying to control the outcome.
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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
My first observation is that boards for all of those things already exist. Circus, Circus, Purg, Eccles.
I mentioned five things, not four, and I do not think that "Purg with tangents" is Circus.
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
My second is that such an ever-changing board would be an absolute bitch to host.
Why? "This board is about X. Concerning Y do Z. Otherwise carry on as in Purg/Hell/..." is what I expect to cover most cases.
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
And my third observation is that running "board experiments" just for the sheer hell of it is silly. It's not meeting any needs or responding to any criticisms, it's just change for the sake of change.
Well, I would enjoy a playground for ideas and I'm worried about how the Ship loses interesting people. I have some hopes that the former would ameliorate the latter - and a less ossified structure may well attract some of the elusive Twitter generation.
(The unintended irony of all this is really killing me... )
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
You're just not getting it, are you, Sine? If all the people who don't like me could sit down and talk to me about it, without interruptions and interference from all the other people who don't like me, and I could therefore engage in a sensible discussion with them about all the issues that make me so unlikeable, there is almost certainly gonna be a better chance of our dealing with their criticisms and reaching some sort of resolution than if, say, they all started piling in on a Hell thread and telling me how much they dislike me for the sole reason of making their dislike clear to me and to everyone else and with no intention of resolving anything except their desperate need to vent their dislike.
A few years ago somebody posted tips on surviving a hell call. I don't remember all of them. One suggestion was to ignore the peanut gallery and simply focus on the person making the hell call. A dueling board would make that easier to do.
Perhaps, what would make it better is a combination of it and what Josephine suggested. Allow shipmates to note their presence on the board but still allow only those participating in the duel to make posts related to the duel.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
What does MAAN stand for?
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
You're just not getting it, are you, Sine? If all the people who don't like me could sit down and talk to me about it, without interruptions and interference from all the other people who don't like me, and I could therefore engage in a sensible discussion with them about all the issues that make me so unlikeable...
You're not seriously proposing to engage with each person who dislikes you, on a one-to-one basis to explore with each of them individually why they don't like you, until all the ramifications have been exhausted to your mutual dissatisfaction? And then move on to the next person and re-start the process and no doubt repeat many of the arguments all over again?
This sounds very much like ego gratification to me. "The reason you don't like me is because you don't really understand me. Let me explain myself to you at great length, and justify my actions, then you'll understand, forgive and like me."
Anyone who has a disagreement with someone that they are seriously interested in resolving won't care whether there is an audience or not. Their main focus of interest will be sorting it out with the other person, and anyone with a shred of discretion will do this privately. There is a saying about not airing your dirty linen in public.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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