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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: A church for men
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
Funny, our Pub Theology meetings tend to be two-thirds women. But this is Portland, where good beer is not so much a drink as a lifestyle choice.
An opt-out, not an opt-in lifestyle choice.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
If you want to persuade young men to come to church, perhaps you should first persuade young women to do so. (There is a tropism involved.)
At the church services I attend, I see little old ladies (some married, some widowed), some married women with their children (and sometimes husbands as well), some teenagers, and a few old codgers like myself. If I were looking for someone to marry (something I do not by any means rule out), I would find few prospects at those services.
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
In discussions of this sort I've noticed a common dichotomy. When an institution has trouble attracting women the problem is usually attributed to something wrong with women. (e.g. girls just can't do math/run a business/hold office) When an institution has trouble attracting men, the problem is with the institution. (e.g. this thread) It's as if there's some horror being expressed that there's any facet of society not set up to cater to men.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
In discussions of this sort I've noticed a common dichotomy. When an institution has trouble attracting women the problem is usually attributed to something wrong with women. (e.g. girls just can't do math/run a business/hold office) When an institution has trouble attracting men, the problem is with the institution. (e.g. this thread) It's as if there's some horror being expressed that there's any facet of society not set up to cater to men.
Funny, I'd see that as a discrimination against and sexist evaluation of women and think the attitude wrt with men is the default; you seem to see both as an evil plot on the part of men.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
Is anyone else not at least a little amused -- or irritated -- at the whingey premise behind all this handwringing? "I don't liiiiike it here. It's boooooooring. It's got girl cooties on it. I'm leeeeeeeaving if you don't make it the way I want it..."
Seriously? These are men unhappy with the "feminization" of church?
Pull up your big-boy britches...stop WHINING, fer Chrissake...then DO something in the church that alleviates whatever deficit you feel it has. You fellows have had control of the institutional Church for most of the last 2,000 years, and you don't know how to effect change in it? Really?
And what is that change, exactly? I mean, we've heard a lot of vague murmuring of flower arranging and liturgical Kumbaya that turns some of your off (news flash: It turns some women off as well)...those puny things, within the great scheme of the life of a faith community, can't be what's supposedly driving men off in droves, is it?
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
If you want to persuade young men to come to church, perhaps you should first persuade young women to do so. (There is a tropism involved.)
Well it certainly worked in our church choir - half the young men ended up marrying half the girls. Add the bellringers into the mix and we had a veritable marriage bureau.
I wonder what the 'critical mass' is in order to make this scheme work?
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
If you want to persuade young men to come to church, perhaps you should first persuade young women to do so. (There is a tropism involved.)
Well it certainly worked in our church choir - half the young men ended up marrying half the girls. Add the bellringers into the mix and we had a veritable marriage bureau.
I wonder what the 'critical mass' is in order to make this scheme work?
Well, first you have to make sure all the young men and women you're dragging in are heterosexual...
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
If I were looking for someone to marry (something I do not by any means rule out), I would find few prospects at those services.
Indeed. Few to none.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
Y'all do know there are church plants out there designed specifically for twentysomethings to hook up, right?
They tend to want you to be a GLE and, once again, heterosexual.
Then once you pop out a baby, you're pretty much done and go somewhere else.
My friend, who was on the Husband Hunt, drug me out one Sunday. Her regular circuit was three different church plants, but she upped it to five that day for my sake.
Kind of wish she hadn't...
[ 21. January 2011, 22:06: Message edited by: Spiffy ]
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
If you want to persuade young men to come to church, perhaps you should first persuade young women to do so. (There is a tropism involved.)
Well it certainly worked in our church choir - half the young men ended up marrying half the girls. Add the bellringers into the mix and we had a veritable marriage bureau.
I wonder what the 'critical mass' is in order to make this scheme work?
Well, first you have to make sure all the young men and women you're dragging in are heterosexual...
Not necessarily. Just so long as there are enough young men and young women to, um, cater to all tastes. Young CHristian gay men and women, I imagine, find it just as difficult as young christin straights to find suitable partners.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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Jon in the Nati
Shipmate
# 15849
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Posted
quote:
I mean, we've heard a lot of vague murmuring of flower arranging and liturgical Kumbaya that turns some of your off (news flash: It turns some women off as well)...those puny things, within the great scheme of the life of a faith community, can't be what's supposedly driving men off in droves, is it?
You know, I wouldn't think so. It is just the only thing I can think of (the touchy-feely liturgical kumbaya, that is). Honestly, I doubt that is the reason. While I stand by my experience that it really, really turns off a lot of people (not just men), something so small cannot be solely responsible for a 'mass exodus' of men from churches.
Frankly, I don't know quite what to make of it, but I am not terribly worried about it.
[ 21. January 2011, 22:52: Message edited by: Jon in the Nati ]
Posts: 773 | From: Region formerly known as the Biretta Belt | Registered: Aug 2010
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George Spigot
Outcast
# 253
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
Is anyone else not at least a little amused -- or irritated -- at the whingey premise behind all this handwringing? "I don't liiiiike it here. It's boooooooring. It's got girl cooties on it. I'm leeeeeeeaving if you don't make it the way I want it..."
Seriously? These are men unhappy with the "feminization" of church?
Pull up your big-boy britches...stop WHINING, fer Chrissake...then DO something in the church that alleviates whatever deficit you feel it has. You fellows have had control of the institutional Church for most of the last 2,000 years, and you don't know how to effect change in it? Really?
And what is that change, exactly? I mean, we've heard a lot of vague murmuring of flower arranging and liturgical Kumbaya that turns some of your off (news flash: It turns some women off as well)...those puny things, within the great scheme of the life of a faith community, can't be what's supposedly driving men off in droves, is it?
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Posts: 1625 | From: Derbyshire - England | Registered: May 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
While church is just yet another interest group, there's no obligation for people of either sex to stay if it doesn't quite float their boat. I've come across people who have left all sorts of clubs or groups for all sorts of reasons, and suspect that what is happening in churches is similar. But if people have a strong desire to attend church based on some kind of underlying faith or wish for faith then they are less likely to drop out so easily if everything isn't just as they wish, surely? Rather like people who have a strong desire for education don't just drop out of college when the work starts getting hard or a subject area doesn't quite interest as much as the previous term's modules. Or the lecturer is a bit boring, or the method of learning too cerebral, etc. etc.
So, how to give people an underlying cause that would make them really want to attend church? Do women really have more of an underlying cause than men? Or is there more to it than that?
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
Is anyone else not at least a little amused -- or irritated -- at the whingey premise behind all this handwringing? "I don't liiiiike it here. It's boooooooring. It's got girl cooties on it. I'm leeeeeeeaving if you don't make it the way I want it..."
Seriously? These are men unhappy with the "feminization" of church?
Pull up your big-boy britches...stop WHINING, fer Chrissake...then DO something in the church that alleviates whatever deficit you feel it has. You fellows have had control of the institutional Church for most of the last 2,000 years, and you don't know how to effect change in it? Really?
This might be the appropriate response if there were lots of men wanting to come to church but put off by the flower-arranging-kumbyaa-ness of it. However as far as I can see the men that are staying away are quite happy staying away. It's people already in the church noticing the lack of men that are wanting to attract them in.
Chorister I think asks the right question:
quote:
So, how to give people an underlying cause that would make them really want to attend church? Do women really have more of an underlying cause than men? Or is there more to it than that?
I really wish I knew the answer.
Posts: 3689 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
In discussions of this sort I've noticed a common dichotomy. When an institution has trouble attracting women the problem is usually attributed to something wrong with women. (e.g. girls just can't do math/run a business/hold office) When an institution has trouble attracting men, the problem is with the institution. (e.g. this thread) It's as if there's some horror being expressed that there's any facet of society not set up to cater to men.
Funny, I'd see that as a discrimination against and sexist evaluation of women and think the attitude wrt with men is the default; you seem to see both as an evil plot on the part of men.
You mean like this?
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
Things the rather large church I attend does to equally endorse the acceptance of both men and women, and with a reasonable amount of success...
1. Many options for strong community outside of the couple of hours people are at church around the time of a service.
2. Approving of doing church (i.e. the community of believers) in venues and manners that are not normally associated with church. This means for me it took approximately 45 seconds to get approval from the youth pastor to organise a night at the cricket this last week with my youth small group.
3. Providing financial, practical and promotional ways of supporting organically-organised community activities. This means we have tons of ways for people to get connected while doing things they actually want to do. There are informally-organised cycling, fishing and surfing groups, even a men's group doing their weekly Bible studies at the pub.
4. Cutting out the touchy-feely crap during services. Because the hate of that is not male-specific and it is a great way to scare off people checking out church for the first time.
5. Budgets for male-specific ministries and corresponding female-specific ministries to be exactly equal each calendar year. In practice the way this goes is that the main women's ministry blow their budget on the first 1-2 events of the year and have to cover costs by charging admission to the rest. The men's ministry tend to do simpler activities and have a good amount left for the last couple of things.
6. Quotas for vocalists leading the congregation in sung worship. In practice this is not always met, but in the cases where they are too short of men the week's worship leader is not allowed to just stack up to a full complement of only female singers and set a new norm of female singers only.
7. No spectators.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
Missed the edit window!
8. Pastors to be real people and participants in the community of the church rather than just doing official pastoral duties. This includes requiring as a part of their employment contract some kind of regular participation in a community not connected with the church. The most in-depth discussion I ever had with the previous Senior Pastor was while kayaking on the Coorong one summer when we came up one leader short for a youth camping trip and he got volunteered for it by his PA who asked his wife, efficiently organised everything for him and only then told him he was getting a three-day holiday just being a responsible adult!
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Replying to Carys, way upthread:
quote:
It depends on the guys -- some of the greatest liturgical pedants I know are men.
But the guys who are liturgical pedants tend to annoy the guys who want to do stuff. The pedantry defines a small club dedicated to "we do things better than you do, and anything you do is low class or undignified or Not Properly Organized".* Why would anyone want to take part if they are told up front that they aren't good enough?
*I've seen the same problem in schools, with teachers who turn kids off by snide comments about the ability to do Math or to write - less now than it was forty years ago, but still happening. It explains a significant part of the school drop-out rate.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
the giant cheeseburger, "7. No spectators." What does that mean? How do you make it happen?
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
the giant cheeseburger, "7. No spectators." What does that mean? How do you make it happen?
Blindfolds? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
"no spectators" - some sort of opposite to the megachurch thing with a glorious choreographed music presentation, a minister preaching from the microphone on a stage,and theater seating, including drinkholders in the arms.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
the giant cheeseburger, "7. No spectators." What does that mean? How do you make it happen?
How about this?
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Maybe it's like we still say but no longer take seriously in our liturgy, "Catecumens depart! Let all catecumens depart! Let no catecumen remain! Let us the faithful again and again pray unto the Lord...."
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
.... something so small cannot be solely responsible for a 'mass exodus' of men from churches.
There was no "mass exodus" specifically of men. Unless you mean the disciples who ran away at teh Crucifixion. Women were always more likely to attend church.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Getting the men to do things in church works - up to a point. The only trouble is, all of them can't do things every week, and then you get the tyrrany of the rota system, which you see with acolytes, lesson readers and many other 'take your turn' jobs in the church - people only turn up when they are on the rota. (But at least they do turn up sometimes.)
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
Isn't this more about the take over of faith by identity generally? People are often very quick to say "my kind of people don't go to this kind of church" before they actually know anything much about the activity or group in question. Once it's been identified that men don't got to church, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Rather like the attraction of gay men to theatrical liturgy - which of course I am. And am. Ho hum...
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Jon in the Nati
Shipmate
# 15849
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Posted
quote:
There was no "mass exodus" specifically of men. Unless you mean the disciples who ran away at teh Crucifixion. Women were always more likely to attend church.
I know; that is why I set it aside in quotes. I have not noticed any such exodus, but some people act like the friggin' sky is falling, and I don't quite know what to say about it.
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Homer: Aww, this isn't about Jesus, is it?
Lovejoy: All things are about Jesus, Homer. Except this.
Posts: 773 | From: Region formerly known as the Biretta Belt | Registered: Aug 2010
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Getting the men to do things in church works - up to a point. The only trouble is, all of them can't do things every week, and then you get the tyrrany of the rota system, which you see with acolytes, lesson readers and many other 'take your turn' jobs in the church - people only turn up when they are on the rota. (But at least they do turn up sometimes.)
There's more than enough jobs to keep all your men busy 52 weeks a year if you just expand your vision of what they do. I've had great success getting men to work in the nursery, teach Sunday School, etc. once you get past the initial assumption this is something mom's do. All it takes is a few positive role models in that position to establish these aren't "women's only" domains.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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itokro
Shipmate
# 16135
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Posted
The reasoning my old (male) youth leader gave to teenage boys on why they should stay in church:
"There's lots more girls than guys in the Church. Do you know what this means? It means Christian men can pull way above their status! Just look at my girlfriend - she'd be way out of my league in any other context!"
Probably not the best way to tackle the men-in-church problem, but it amused me.
Posts: 74 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2011
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Being in an evil mood tonight (must write sermon, Don't. Want. To)--
If you want to see plenty of men in church, bring back persecution. Dunno why, but when it's dangerous to go to church, you seem to get more guys.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by FooloftheShip:
Isn't this more about the take over of faith by identity generally? People are often very quick to say "my kind of people don't go to this kind of church" before they actually know anything much about the activity or group in question. Once it's been identified that men don't got to church, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Rather like the attraction of gay men to theatrical liturgy - which of course I am. And am. Ho hum...
This may be the fist post on this thread that starts getting near characterizing what may be going on. Thank you, FooloftheShip.
While I'm here - has it always been this way, as some of you assert? I keep asking for evidence but I'm still waiting. Perhaps it has. But there are long stretches in the church's history in this country when that is far from clear. Churches in other countries don't see this. Heck, some churches in this country don't see it either. Why should I assume it has always been the way it is when it is not this way elsewhere?
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by FooloftheShip:
People are often very quick to say "my kind of people don't go to this kind of church" before they actually know anything much about the activity or group in question.
I'm not sure who "my kind of people" are. Its probably an overlapping set of loosely delimited groups. But whoever they are, they don't seem to to go to the church I go to. Or any churches, much.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Maybe more women like singing than men. On one of the 'things kids say' threads I posted something I overheard in church once - a boy who said, 'Mum I don't think I'll be a Christian when I grow up, I can't stand all that singing'.
Of course, it doesn't help if the songs you sing go like this....
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Maybe more women like singing than men.[/URL]
Ever been to a football match?
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Or a rugby club....
Or army marching songs....
So is it the type of singing that matters - big and beefy rather than weak and wimpy? Male choral music fans notwithstanding?
[ 23. January 2011, 19:29: Message edited by: Chorister ]
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
If you're afraid you don't sing well, being anonymous in a large crowd belting it out where sour notes will be averaged out in the din is maybe the only place where you feel safe singing.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
Good point. I have heard people say they were put off coming back to church (after visiting for the first time) by all the singing because they'd be embarrassed by their own voice.
This was both men and women.
Posts: 3689 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote:
I'm not sure who "my kind of people" are. Its probably an overlapping set of loosely delimited groups. But whoever they are, they don't seem to to go to the church I go to. Or any churches, much.
Of course.
Or to put it another way, it's useless asking people here to extrapolate from their experience what the problem is. For a raft of different reasons, we won't have a clue. We go to church, mostly. Or largely I think.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Kitten
Shipmate
# 1179
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
As a male, I'd like a church that:
didn't allow services to go over an hour
don't expect you to stay for coffee and gossip
didn't expect you t hold hands and look into the eyes of others during the grace
As a female, ditto
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Maius intra qua extra
Never accept a ride from a stranger, unless they are in a big blue box
Posts: 2330 | From: Carmarthenshire | Registered: Aug 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Anglicans Online has an editorial this week about the church for men idea, referenced within an article that talks about youth also. It rains on the parade.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
As a male, I'd like a church that:
didn't allow services to go over an hour
don't expect you to stay for coffee and gossip
As a male I'd like a church that is relaxed about time, takes as long as it needs over the services, and doesn't really care about punctuality.
I'd also like one that had some proper social interaction and not just smalltalk. I coudl do with more of it not less.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
quote:
As a male, I'd like a church that:
didn't allow services to go over an hour
don't expect you to stay for coffee and gossip
didn't expect you t hold hands and look into the eyes of others during the grace
Here's another female agreeing with you. And although we're wobbly on your first point -- our pastor tends to preach "until he's done," or at least until his spouse starts pointing at her watch and frowning -- our church does neither of the other two things.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Garden Hermit
Shipmate
# 109
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Posted
The men I know seem all more 'Agnostic' than women on religion.
eg We can't possibly know so why bother attitude.
I note that the Aethists Club (aka the National Secular Society) seems to be run by women just as the Churches are.
Debate.
Pax et Bonum
Posts: 1413 | From: Reading UK | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
As a man I want a church that doesn't just have a coffee hour after services but a full communal potluck meal. Every week. Where you can sit down across the table from somebody and actually talk about real things and not just stand trying to balance a coffee cup and a little paper plate with cookies and bleat smalltalk.
I think starting things with "As a man I want..." is daft. I want those things as me. Do I want them because I am a man? How would I know? How can I winnow out what I want because I'm a man, and what I want simpliciter?
If you ask one man what he wants you find out not what men want, but what that man wants. If you ask 10,000 men what they want, and 10,000 women what they want, you might start to see patterns. Or not.
[ 24. January 2011, 17:28: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Garden Hermit
Shipmate
# 109
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Posted
Men are quite happy to discuss 'Morality' say for example in sport.
Should a football player 'dive' to get a penalty or a batsman 'walk' when he knows he's out but the umpire doesn't give it.
Men are passionate about the war in Iraq, and whether it was both 'immoral' and impractical.
In discussing 'Morality' we are coming close to the concept of 'God's will', aren't we ?
Most church services are 'boring' and the sermons never ever say anything to offend everyone, or even challenge them.
Pax et Bonum
Posts: 1413 | From: Reading UK | Registered: May 2001
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
As a man I want a church that doesn't just have a coffee hour after services but a full communal potluck meal. Every week. Where you can sit down across the table from somebody and actually talk about real things and not just stand trying to balance a coffee cup and a little paper plate with cookies and bleat smalltalk.
I think starting things with "As a man I want..." is daft. I want those things as me. Do I want them because I am a man? How would I know? How can I winnow out what I want because I'm a man, and what I want simpliciter?
If you ask one man what he wants you find out not what men want, but what that man wants. If you ask 10,000 men what they want, and 10,000 women what they want, you might start to see patterns. Or not.
It's always a feature of these discussions, MT. But I agree with you.
For all that these discussions are worthy in their own right (cringeworthy hymns, touchy-feely group hugs, etc. etc. all deserve criticising into something better), I just can't see that any of them provide sufficient horsepower to achieve the sex ratios we see in attendance. Sorry.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
As a man I want a church that doesn't just have a coffee hour after services but a full communal potluck meal. Every week. Where you can sit down across the table from somebody and actually talk about real things and not just stand trying to balance a coffee cup and a little paper plate with cookies and bleat smalltalk.
Agree. That's why I like churches where people go to the pub for drinks/lunch afterwards.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Bean Sidhe
Shipmate
# 11823
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
I've mentioned this before elsewhere, but I've always thought that the male/female divide in church attendance stems from the fact that, especially in "traditional" family structures and divisions of household labor, most men are typically giving up leisure time to attend church whereas many women are getting a respite from housework and child care. It's a matter of different opportunity costs, not the attractive power of church attendance in itself.
Do you attend a church? If a regularly-attending woman is getting a respite from housework and childcare, it is in exchange for the opportunity to host a coffee hour and teach Sunday School...
--Tom Clune
When our kids were small, Sunday was no respite. Getting them up almost as early as a school day, getting to church... keeping them something resembling civilised through the service, usually having one of them in an armlock... teaching Sunday School, doing a reading, intercessions, serving coffee after. Respite, such as it was, came Monday morning after I'd dropped them off at school.
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How do you know when a politician is lying?
His lips are moving.
Danny DeVito
Posts: 4363 | From: where the taxis won't go | Registered: Sep 2006
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aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
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Posted
The desertion of the Roman Catholic Church by men was predicted by Cardinal Heenan (late Archbishop of Westminster) after his attendance at an early post Vatican II mass in the Sistine Chapel when he said "At home it is not only women and children but also fathers of families and young men who come regularly to mass. If we were to offer them the kind of ceremony we saw yesterday in the Sistine Chapel we would soon be left with a congregation mostly of women and children.
Gloopy sentimental modernism is the Kryptonite to male participation.
Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001
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