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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Israel's troubles
vw man
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I know this has nothing about the topic but as I no longer drive a vw may be I should change my name Rav4.may be
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Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by vw man:
I have not been on the ship for some time about a year so don't know what is happening.but my point is has anyone read about the 4 blood red moons if it is correct we might see problems for the next year or so .All I do is pray for wisdom for the leaders but as those in Gazza don't want Isrel to exisit Help

Nope, but a quick google suggests strongly that it's batshit quackery of the highest order, so of course the nutjob elements of the Christian Zionist movement are all over it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_Moon_Prophecy

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LeRoc

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I think the 'four Blood Moons' refer to the Lunar eclipes that have happened / will happen in 2014 and 2015, apperantly coinciding with the Jewish festivals of Passover and Sukkot.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Eutychus
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hosting/

quote:
Originally posted by vw man:
I know this has nothing about the topic but as I no longer drive a vw may be I should change my name Rav4.may be

You will have to wait for a name change amnesty. The place to plead for this is in the Styx. It may happen before the eschaton, or not.

/hosting

[ 30. July 2014, 19:39: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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vw man
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At first I took4 blood ted moons with a pinch of salt but 1948 1967 I don't know goggle 4 blood red moons pray4 Isral
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Arethosemyfeet
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It's happened 62 times in the last 2000 years. Forgive me if I don't get overexcited.
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Mudfrog
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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
It's happened 62 times in the last 2000 years. Forgive me if I don't get overexcited.

Yes, but Israel has only existed for the first 70 and the last 70 of those 2000 years. The pieces have all got to be in place.

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
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Martin60
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What?!

Huxley was right. Religion: man's attempt to communicate with the weather.

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Love wins

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Beeswax Altar
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
It's happened 62 times in the last 2000 years. Forgive me if I don't get overexcited.

Yes, but Israel has only existed for the first 70 and the last 70 of those 2000 years. The pieces have all got to be in place.
Come on, Mudfrog, John Hagee?!

Really?

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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan

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Anglican_Brat
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
It's happened 62 times in the last 2000 years. Forgive me if I don't get overexcited.

Yes, but Israel has only existed for the first 70 and the last 70 of those 2000 years. The pieces have all got to be in place.
Er...As far as I recall, historic Palestine was under Roman occupation for the first 70 years.
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irish_lord99
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I have been very interested to discover - and there is so much to discover! - that the main justification given by Hamas, its defenders and supporters, for the rocket attacks on Israel is the blockade of Gaza.

What interests me is the discovery that Egypt is also blockading Gaza.

My question therefore is why Hamas has not fired nearly 3000 rockets into Egypt.

I'm actually wondering whether the blockade by Israel is not the real reason for the rocket attacks...

Hamas may not be that bright, but even they know better than to be at war with both Israel and Egypt simultaneously.

Also to be considered is the fact that the Egyptian blockade is in place largely due to US pressure at Israeli behest; and would be lifted if Israel ceased to be such a political force in the US.

Strategically/politically it makes more sense to let Israel portray themselves as a bunch of baby-killers than it does for the Palestinians to portray themselves as 'that group that just likes to launch rockets at everyone.'

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
What?!

Huxley was right. Religion: man's attempt to communicate with the weather.

Sometimes Martin, you come up with paste and sometimes with gems. This one is lovely gem in the context of the thread.

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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

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Gramps49
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Who started the this round of fighting?

It is not whom you think.

Here is a summary of who did what, when:

http://www.alternet.org/world/debunked-mendacious-propaganda-israel-pushing-justify-its-war-gaza

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Mudfrog
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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
It's happened 62 times in the last 2000 years. Forgive me if I don't get overexcited.

Yes, but Israel has only existed for the first 70 and the last 70 of those 2000 years. The pieces have all got to be in place.
Come on, Mudfrog, John Hagee?!

Really?

Well I know, I've not read the books, seen the videos or heard the sermons. I was just pointing out the possible reason why the other blood moons may not be seen as significant. The existence of Israel is seen as the crux of the matter. With Israel in place the other prophecies become relevant.

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Who started the this round of fighting?

It is not whom you think.

Here is a summary of who did what, when:

http://www.alternet.org/world/debunked-mendacious-propaganda-israel-pushing-justify-its-war-gaza

What credibility does that article have? Both sides, and their supporters, are putting out versions that are highly slanted in favour of their friend and against their enemy. A website one has never heard of has no inherent credibility at all, and the level of the other stories on it don't encourage one to respect it.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
What credibility does that article have? Both sides, and their supporters, are putting out versions that are highly slanted in favour of their friend and against their enemy.

Will you accept an Israeli source?

http://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-fired-rockets-for-first-time-since-2012-israeli-officials-say/

I think arguing cause is a fools errand, but at least there appears to be grounds to the argument that there was an airstrike prior to the rocket attacks.

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itsarumdo
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_m98GAdqKM

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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron

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Eutychus
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hosting/

Posts to links without explanation or comment will attract hostly glowers.

/hosting

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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itsarumdo
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Russel Brand on fine form

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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron

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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Who started the this round of fighting?

It is not whom you think.

Here is a summary of who did what, when:

http://www.alternet.org/world/debunked-mendacious-propaganda-israel-pushing-justify-its-war-gaza

What credibility does that article have? Both sides, and their supporters, are putting out versions that are highly slanted in favour of their friend and against their enemy. A website one has never heard of has no inherent credibility at all, and the level of the other stories on it don't encourage one to respect it.
My objection is that Gramps49's description of it being what, when, was most inaccurate. There were a number of whats, but no dates, so I was into a second read to try to establish a chronology when I wondered if I had other things to do. Like many other surces on the topic, it was slanted, but it provided no new perspective or information, and certainly no what, when.

Another parallel with the Northern Irish question is that when one began to trace back the sequence of events, one quickly found oneself in the 17th century. It reminds me of an Arab Israeli lawyer of my acquaintance who dealt with conveyancing, and spent much of her time in Ottoman archives to see if she could find the original title for a garage space (her best was a deed by Saladin).

With this particular conflict, protagonists will need to move from their own litany of wrongs -- and I've read these litanies, and they're moving, and sometimes overwhelming-- to look for a future where people will have rights and, where that's not clear, to look for ways of compromise, especially where they don't want them.

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quetzalcoatl
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Augustine

I think Israel has the solution that it wants, so why would it change? It is gradually grabbing more and more of the West Bank, it has penned the Gazans into a ghetto, and periodically punishes them, it can easily defy any 'international opinion' that might criticize them. It is probably concerned about the instability of the whole region now, but that is even more reason to seize most of the land from the Jordan to the sea. Result.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Augustine

I think Israel has the solution that it wants, so why would it change? It is gradually grabbing more and more of the West Bank, it has penned the Gazans into a ghetto, and periodically punishes them, it can easily defy any 'international opinion' that might criticize them. It is probably concerned about the instability of the whole region now, but that is even more reason to seize most of the land from the Jordan to the sea. Result.

I would angle that a bit differently; I think that the Israeli cabinet and its supporters has the solution it thinks it wants-- what it needs is very different and the gap between the two serves only to underline the incompetence of the Israeli leadership. It does not have a stable society; a huge proportion of its GDP is dedicated to defence; while the Arab Israeli citizens are doing very well financially and professionally, the Palestinian Arabs needed to keep the place running are being kept as an underclass; the nation cannot effectively trade with any of its neighbours; and a chunk of the Jewish population is not interested in even bearing its part of the burden; its neighbours are responding rationally only in an intermittent fashion, and this cannot be seriously addressed until the Palestinian refugee situation is addressed. This is not a situation which is sustainable in the long term.
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quetzalcoatl
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Augustine

Very good points.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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itsarumdo
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Not only that - they don;t ave enough groundwater to irrigate sufficient crops to feed themselves - are reliant on food from - well Israel blockades their sea access, so the only access for any thing is through - Israel. The present Egyptian govt is secular and doesn't like the moslem brotherhood, allied to Hamas, so they also don't provide anything. Since there is no transport access to the outside world, Gaza is also unable to have any substantial working trade or finance arrangements other than through charity/other backers. In this one matter, Israel already shoots itself in the foot because who is going to finance Gaza? Firstly, anyone who dislikes Israel and is willing to spend a little cash to have someone else fire their bullets. Gaza itself is about 5km wide and, I don't know - 20km long? within which any people who wish to contain armed resistance to Israel have to live and "hide their weapons". Do they have any option other than to live and operate from somewhere near civilians? No - there is just not enough space. The Israeli army has now managed to kill about 1000 Gazans in retaliation for 3 of its teenagers and a couple of dozen of its soldiers. Whenever bombs kill people you can more or less treble that number in injuries (limbs, eyes, etc) - and most of the injured are "collateral damage". The response to the UN school shelling is just too cynical for words - "we have no information that it was one of our shells - we are investigating". I'm trying to imagine what would have happened if Britains response to one IRA bomb was to go in and shell the Shanklin Road and kill 1000 civilians, including landing a few shells in school grounds and vegetable markets by accident ("because we know that the IRA are hiding there - an they have hidden weapons"). And the response to this in Israel and most of the international community is a shrug and a "what do the Palestinians expect?". It has become so normalised, so part of normal middle east activity that it has become acceptable.

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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron

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quetzalcoatl
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There are always groups of people who are treated like dirt - I suppose you could loosely call them niggers. Many indigenous people have fallen into this category, and still do, e.g. native Americans, Amazonian tribes. There might be some liberal concern about them, but after all, there is usually something better on TV to watch than telegenic dead kids.

One irony is that Jews have often been treated like this, via ghettos, pogroms, and so on.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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itsarumdo
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
There are always groups of people who are treated like dirt - I suppose you could loosely call them niggers. Many indigenous people have fallen into this category, and still do, e.g. native Americans, Amazonian tribes. There might be some liberal concern about them, but after all, there is usually something better on TV to watch than telegenic dead kids.

One irony is that Jews have often been treated like this, via ghettos, pogroms, and so on.

Yes - I was shocked a few years ago when I found out that Australian aborigines weren't even classified as human beings in Australia until the 1970's. But that is the issue, isn't it? It only takes a small amount of vilification to start to view "them" (whoever they might be) as having lives less valuable than "us". And I didn't get the connection to animal welfare until quite recently, but any society that treats animals or the Earth or any kind of natural resource with cruelty or contempt or as an economic asset is also perfectly capable of viewing other humans to be in the same category - we degrade one life form and it opens the whole barrel of worms.

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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron

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Gramps49
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Just because you have not heard of Alternet, Enoch, does not mean it is not a credible source.

Granted, it is a liberal/progressive news source. It is often cited in Salon, and Mother Jones and AL Jazeera English. Its editor was a former editor of Mother Jones.

It also has been nominated for a couple of awards

Webby Awards (for internet news sources)

Nominated: 2002, 2004
Winner: 2003, 2005
Official Honoree (Politics section), 2008[6]

Utne Independent Press Awards

Nominated: 2004, 2005
Winner: 2002, 2003 (Reader's Choice)

One of NPR's five "best on the internet", 2001

I only offered their version of the events because I feel there is more than one side to this story.

You may question the source, but that does not necessarily mean it is not factual.

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Penny S
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A little point about lunar eclipses. They are not always bloody in appearance. If the part of the Earth's atmosphere around the the edge, as seen from the Moon, is dusty, as after a a volcanic eruption, the Moon will appear a deep red. If the skies are clear around the edge, more of the Sun's light will reach the Moon - I have seen an eclipse which looked almost like a peach, and to describe it as bloody would have been extreme.

Fred Espenak's page on the subject.

So we should wait and see, maybe. Of course, if the atmosphere is full of dust and clouds at the times, it might mean worse things were happening. The first of the tetrad was quite dark - but it wasn't visible in Israel. Nor will the second and third be - all three favour the Pacific area. The fourth will be briefly visible in Israel at moonset. Honestly, as if the gravitational workings of the cosmos are predicated on the actions of some badly behaved bipeds who should know better if they read the right parts of their scriptures! Now if the tetrad were all to occur with the Moon at the zenith over Jerusalem, that might indicate something. But they aren't going to do that.

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Penny S
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And there's only one total solar eclipse associated with these lunar ones - visibly in the North Atlantic, at such lovely spots for March as the Faroes and Svalbard. Not visible where Joel would know about it, and cold and almost certainly cloudy. (I may report back.) This is not before the one visible in Israel.
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Callan
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
It's happened 62 times in the last 2000 years. Forgive me if I don't get overexcited.

Yes, but Israel has only existed for the first 70 and the last 70 of those 2000 years. The pieces have all got to be in place.
As if this thread wasn't bad enough I know have "Bad Moon Rising" running through my head on a loop.

Strictly speaking there wasn't a political entity called Israel during that period. There were a succession of client kingdoms, Roman protectorates and whatnot*. IIRC, Herod Agrippa did briefly attain to the dignity of Actual King of Judea And No Messing** but if the Acts of the Apostles are any guide this is not a happy precedent***. Someone tell Bibi to stay away from owls****.

*Someone is now going to mention King Herod the Great, who was indeed King of Judea. However his main contribution to the Messianic Reign was to attempt to strangle it at birth and, in any event, he dropped dead shortly after the birth of Christ. In any event he died in 4BC so it would be 74 years before and 66 after. So much for yer fearful symmetry.
**He got the gig by being mates with the Emperor Claudius. A proper Latin scholar would insert a lame Latin pun in here but I've no time - it's just quondam thing after another.
***After persecuting the Apostles he was struck down for claiming the prerogatives of the Almighty. Persons advancing bets as to the day and the hour which the Son knoweth not but only the Father ought to learn from this.
****Josephus tells the same story with an owl rather than an Angel of the Lord as the harbinger of the Lord's wrath. This either indicates a phobia on the part of Josephus or a Messianic Significance on the part of the Labour Party's twitter feed (it was hacked by persons unknown who offered a policy of a free owl to everyone in the country, the Party ruefully observed that it was a policy that had failed to take flight). The Mail haven't yet claimed that Ed Miliband is the anti-Christ but it can only be a matter of time.

I hear hurricanes a blowing.
I know the end is coming soon.
I fear rivers over flowing.
I hear the voice of rage and ruin.

Well don't go around tonight,
Well it's bound to take your life,
There's a bad moon on the rise.


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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Martin60
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Beeswax Altar. ALL is forgiven.

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Love wins

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Taliesin
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I can't read most of this thread because I'd need to take my outrage straight to hell.

To respond to those who said, they need a Ghandi or a Nelson Mandela (who was also branded a terrorist back in the day, by our own David Cameron among many others) then read a book called 'I shall not hate'by a Muslim doctor called izzeldin Abuelaish, whose children were killed in the last war on Gaza. When he speaks in the US for peace, he is called a terrorist by pro Israel American hecklers.

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Taliesin:
Nelson Mandela...who was...branded a terrorist...by our own David Cameron.

Really?
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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Taliesin:
Nelson Mandela...who was...branded a terrorist...by our own David Cameron.

Really?
Link

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Forward the New Republic

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Martin60
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Izzeldin Abuelaish is a beautiful human being, but he is not a leader of Hamas or Fatah or The Islamic State or The Islamic Brotherhood.

The pacifist Mahdi must come from one of as them.

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Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jay-Emm
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# 11411

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Taliesin:
Nelson Mandela...who was...branded a terrorist...by our own David Cameron.

Really?
Link
To be fair that article seems to be talking about him apologizing as his hat (or his party) not himself. (Similarly to any apology for slavery.)

He'd only have been a young Tory. (albeit probably a loyal follower if he worked for them just after)

[ 01. August 2014, 07:37: Message edited by: Jay-Emm ]

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Doc Tor
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There are allegations that Cameron wore a "Hang Mandela" t-shirt and took part in a pro-apartheid trip to South Africa - when he was a Young Conservative.

Yes, we all do things we later regret: if he's genuinely changed his views (as opposed to simply mouthing expediencies because everyone loves Mandela) then good.

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Forward the New Republic

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Gamaliel
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# 812

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The more I read Mudfrog's view of Biblical prophecy the more I realise that he and I don't occupy the same conceptual space ... for all the other stuff we might have in common.

It's a bit like an old 'friend' and sparring partner from my more full-on evangelical days whose attitude towards this whole thing seems to be, 'Tough ... let the dead bury their own dead, we're all going to heaven anyway ... so what does it matter about a few ickle babies and old people ...'

[Roll Eyes] [Mad]

Not that I think Muddies any way near as bad. But that's where this sort of thinking leads. Never mind, folks, it's all in the prophecies!

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Mudfrog
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Oooh that really is an assumption and an accusation too far!

If you're referring to my comment regarding the moon-thingy, all I was trying to suggest was a reason why some people think they are relevant.
I have not said that I give them any credence whatsoever.

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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Martin60
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# 368

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In that case my unreserved apologies for one.

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Love wins

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beatmenace
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# 16955

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But just to stir it up a bit -

Those folk who predicted that something significant for Israel would coincide with the Four Blood Moons won't have much of a case in asking for their money back.

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"I'm the village idiot , aspiring to great things." (The Icicle Works)

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Martin60
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# 368

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The first allegation is untrue. The second isn't.

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Love wins

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ChastMastr
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# 716

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
But that's where this sort of thinking leads. Never mind, folks, it's all in the prophecies!

Actually, I don't think it leads there at all in and of itself. I can say that (barring miracles) there will likely be ... about 30 gun deaths in the US within the next 24 hours. It doesn't mean the victims don't matter. Heck, there's even that passage in Matthew: "Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!" These things will happen--it doesn't mean that our response should be "oh well, doesn't matter," either regarding the victims or those who kill them.

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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

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Gamaliel
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# 812

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Fair enough - and before anyone gets the wrong idea, I'm not for a moment suggesting that Mudfrog doesn't care about the casualties on both sides ...

But as for the former church colleague (if that's the right word) I cited ...

[Roll Eyes]

I do think though - and again, I'm not accusing Mudfrog of this, that an over-literal approach to prophecy does lead to a kind of quietistic pietism in the wrong kind of way ... and at the risk of upsetting Kaplan Corday if he's around, I saw a lot of that in the Brethren.

The Bible in one hand and The Readers' Digest in the other ...

[Biased]

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Mudfrog
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Ah well, the Brethren...
[Big Grin]


Anyway, as far as being too over-literal with prophecies are concerned, I agree that we should not be reading the Bible, as you say Bible in one hand, RD in the other, or using the Bible as sacred Nostradamus-literature. BUT there is a danger that we might become all 'Sadducee' over this and reject any idea that prophecy could have any kind of substantial or actual fulfilment.

Let's leave aside the tangent of 'were the Gospel accounts written deliberately to include happenings that were prophesied?'

Instead, let's place ourselves in the minds of 7th Century BC liberal Jews who, on hearing/reading the Messianic prophecies all said, 'O well we mustn't take virgins conceiving, Bethlehem's ruler of my people, they brake not my bones, led like a lamb to the slaughter, etc, etc, too literally as future predictions; after all they ONLY apply to our present political situation...'

It seems to me that, even recognising the evident validity of the immediate fulfilment of these prophecies in the context of the events of the day, these prophecies were also literally fulfilled in the life of Jesus Christ.

It does us no good to be so sure about the non-literal fulfilment of the eschatalogical prophecies - especially if we might be in danger of having egg on our faces when Christ does actually appear for those who were ready for him, as he 'suggested' we should be.

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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Gamaliel
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# 812

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Well yes, but the Early Church effectively 'Christianised' those OT prophecies, of course.

That doesn't mean that I don't believe in the Virgin Birth - I do. Nor does it mean that I don't believe these things to have been fulfilled in Christ.

But neither do I take all these OT prophecies in a 'woodenly literal' way. They had a contemporary application in their own day as well as one which was discerned and recognised by the first Christians.

It does seem to me, though, that the Early Christians could be a bit 'naughty' in the way they handled some of these OT prophecies ... they do push the envelope a bit ...

[Biased]

That doesn't mean that I believe them all to be convenient redactions either. I think there's something a lot more complex going on than simply, 'This is going to happen and you'd better watch out for it so that you recognise it when it does ...'

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Mudfrog
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Well yes, but the Early Church effectively 'Christianised' those OT prophecies, of course.

That doesn't mean that I don't believe in the Virgin Birth - I do. Nor does it mean that I don't believe these things to have been fulfilled in Christ.

But neither do I take all these OT prophecies in a 'woodenly literal' way. They had a contemporary application in their own day as well as one which was discerned and recognised by the first Christians.

It does seem to me, though, that the Early Christians could be a bit 'naughty' in the way they handled some of these OT prophecies ... they do push the envelope a bit ...

[Biased]

That doesn't mean that I believe them all to be convenient redactions either. I think there's something a lot more complex going on than simply, 'This is going to happen and you'd better watch out for it so that you recognise it when it does ...'

And of course, I agree with you.
On the proviso that Micah heard God correctly when he knew that out of Bethlehem a ruler would come whose origins were from everlasting...

[Biased]

The prophecies can not be seen as accurate blueprints for what later did come to pass - and that suggests to me that as yet unfllfilled parousia prophecies will have a greater fulfillment not a lesser one.

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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Gamaliel
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We'll have to wait and see ...

[Biased]

There's a balance in all of this, of course. I was amused earlier this week when a friend told me how, as a 'young Christian' he had voted against Britain joining the Common Market (as it was then) as he'd read Hal Lindsey and thought that the Common Market would usher in the Anti-Christ.

I found myself wondering aloud whether the Beast and the Anti-Christ (assuming for the sake of a gag that they are different 'people') were quaking in their boots going, 'Oh no, he's just voted against the Common Market, that's really going to delay our plans ...'

[Big Grin]

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Well yes, but the Early Church effectively 'Christianised' those OT prophecies, of course.

That doesn't mean that I don't believe in the Virgin Birth - I do. Nor does it mean that I don't believe these things to have been fulfilled in Christ.

But neither do I take all these OT prophecies in a 'woodenly literal' way. They had a contemporary application in their own day as well as one which was discerned and recognised by the first Christians.

It does seem to me, though, that the Early Christians could be a bit 'naughty' in the way they handled some of these OT prophecies ... they do push the envelope a bit ...

[Biased]

That doesn't mean that I believe them all to be convenient redactions either. I think there's something a lot more complex going on than simply, 'This is going to happen and you'd better watch out for it so that you recognise it when it does ...'

Yes. I think the NT use of the OT Is fascinating, in part because it breaks all the "rules" we have today about how to read texts in context, etc. I do think we see in the NT a "rereading" of the OT text "thru the lens of Christ" which I do think is appropriate for Christians-- that the incarnation changes everything we thought we knew about what these texts mean.

I also think it changes the way we understand prophesy. I would say what we're seeing when Matthew quotes Isaiah in the context of the incarnation, for example, is really more of a "foreshadowing" or a "paralleling" than what we think of when we label it a "messianic prophesy". It's more of a poetic recognition of these common themes, common threads, running through the whole of Scripture, rather than the more wooden way we tend to read it.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Gamaliel
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# 812

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Yes, that's the way I see it too, Cliffdweller, only you've said it a lot better than I could.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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