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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Israel's troubles
ToujoursDan

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quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Augustine

I think Israel has the solution that it wants, so why would it change? It is gradually grabbing more and more of the West Bank, it has penned the Gazans into a ghetto, and periodically punishes them, it can easily defy any 'international opinion' that might criticize them. It is probably concerned about the instability of the whole region now, but that is even more reason to seize most of the land from the Jordan to the sea. Result.

I would angle that a bit differently; I think that the Israeli cabinet and its supporters has the solution it thinks it wants-- what it needs is very different and the gap between the two serves only to underline the incompetence of the Israeli leadership. It does not have a stable society; a huge proportion of its GDP is dedicated to defence; while the Arab Israeli citizens are doing very well financially and professionally, the Palestinian Arabs needed to keep the place running are being kept as an underclass; the nation cannot effectively trade with any of its neighbours; and a chunk of the Jewish population is not interested in even bearing its part of the burden; its neighbours are responding rationally only in an intermittent fashion, and this cannot be seriously addressed until the Palestinian refugee situation is addressed. This is not a situation which is sustainable in the long term.
They'll keep going because a large part of Israel's defence costs are paid by the U.S. taxpayer. If/when the U.S. gets tired of giving huge amounts of foreign and defence aid to another developed nation, things will change quickly. (That day seems to be coming though.)

As far as the Arab Israeli population is concerned, the calls to expel them from Israel, South African style are growing. 2/3rds of the Arab citizens of Israel believe that Israel has become a racist state. This doesn't bode well for the future.

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Anglican_Brat
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quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Augustine

I think Israel has the solution that it wants, so why would it change? It is gradually grabbing more and more of the West Bank, it has penned the Gazans into a ghetto, and periodically punishes them, it can easily defy any 'international opinion' that might criticize them. It is probably concerned about the instability of the whole region now, but that is even more reason to seize most of the land from the Jordan to the sea. Result.

I would angle that a bit differently; I think that the Israeli cabinet and its supporters has the solution it thinks it wants-- what it needs is very different and the gap between the two serves only to underline the incompetence of the Israeli leadership. It does not have a stable society; a huge proportion of its GDP is dedicated to defence; while the Arab Israeli citizens are doing very well financially and professionally, the Palestinian Arabs needed to keep the place running are being kept as an underclass; the nation cannot effectively trade with any of its neighbours; and a chunk of the Jewish population is not interested in even bearing its part of the burden; its neighbours are responding rationally only in an intermittent fashion, and this cannot be seriously addressed until the Palestinian refugee situation is addressed. This is not a situation which is sustainable in the long term.
They'll keep going because a large part of Israel's defence costs are paid by the U.S. taxpayer. If/when the U.S. gets tired of giving huge amounts of foreign and defence aid to another developed nation, things will change quickly. (That day seems to be coming though.)

As far as the Arab Israeli population is concerned, the calls to expel them from Israel, South African style are growing. 2/3rds of the Arab citizens of Israel believe that Israel has become a racist state. This doesn't bode well for the future.

Indeed, the United States is not a neutral party in this conflict.

I just read Max Blumenthal's "Goliath: Fear and Loathing in Greater Israel." Blumenthal opened my eyes in that the idea of Israel being a multi-ethnic, inclusive democracy is a myth and that Israel has a sizable and frightening far right that would expel the Arabs and the African immigrants out if given the chance.

Many western liberals have been conned by the Israeli media machine promoting Israel as a progressive democracy.

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Byron
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
There are always groups of people who are treated like dirt - I suppose you could loosely call them niggers. Many indigenous people have fallen into this category, and still do, e.g. native Americans, Amazonian tribes. There might be some liberal concern about them, but after all, there is usually something better on TV to watch than telegenic dead kids.

One irony is that Jews have often been treated like this, via ghettos, pogroms, and so on.

And they would be again if Hamas had its way: its intent is explicitly genocidal.
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Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
And they would be again if Hamas had its way: its intent is explicitly genocidal.

I thought they just wanted Israel gone, at least as far as their publically stated policy goes (I'm more than prepared to accept that a fair few individuals within Hamas are anti-Semitic genocidal bastards). In that sense they are symmetric to the Israelis who want no Palestine (i.e. everyone from Likud rightwards).
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Byron
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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
I thought [Hamas] just wanted Israel gone, at least as far as their publically stated policy goes (I'm more than prepared to accept that a fair few individuals within Hamas are anti-Semitic genocidal bastards). In that sense they are symmetric to the Israelis who want no Palestine (i.e. everyone from Likud rightwards).

Not according to their founding charter, which they've never renounced.
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Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
I thought [Hamas] just wanted Israel gone, at least as far as their publically stated policy goes (I'm more than prepared to accept that a fair few individuals within Hamas are anti-Semitic genocidal bastards). In that sense they are symmetric to the Israelis who want no Palestine (i.e. everyone from Likud rightwards).

Not according to their founding charter, which they've never renounced.
I'm missing any references to killing Jews for the sake of it in there. In fact it says:

quote:
Under the wing of Islam, it is possible for the followers of the three religions - Islam, Christianity and Judaism - to coexist in peace and quiet with each other. Peace and quiet would not be possible except under the wing of Islam. Past and present history are the best witness to that.
Their ideology is pretty vile and seeks to impose an Islamic state wherever there has been Muslim rule in the past (including Spain if I'm understanding it right) but the strong implication is that they an Islamic state and aren't fussed if there are Jews in it, so long as the Muslims are in charge.

If you can point me to something more obviously genocidal I've missed I'm happy to be corrected.

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Mudfrog
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quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
I thought [Hamas] just wanted Israel gone, at least as far as their publically stated policy goes (I'm more than prepared to accept that a fair few individuals within Hamas are anti-Semitic genocidal bastards). In that sense they are symmetric to the Israelis who want no Palestine (i.e. everyone from Likud rightwards).

Not according to their founding charter, which they've never renounced.
This is astonishing!

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Mudfrog
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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
I thought [Hamas] just wanted Israel gone, at least as far as their publically stated policy goes (I'm more than prepared to accept that a fair few individuals within Hamas are anti-Semitic genocidal bastards). In that sense they are symmetric to the Israelis who want no Palestine (i.e. everyone from Likud rightwards).

Not according to their founding charter, which they've never renounced.
I'm missing any references to killing Jews for the sake of it in there.
Try this from Article 7:

quote:
the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."

Is that clear enough?

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Sioni Sais
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From the "Lillian Goldman Law Library"? I'm sure that's a reliable source. [Disappointed]

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Byron
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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
I'm missing any references to killing Jews for the sake of it in there. [...] If you can point me to something more obviously genocidal I've missed I'm happy to be corrected.

In addition to Article Seven, just quoted, Article Fifteen calls for Holy War against "the Jews' usurpation of Palestine," and Article Thirty-Two cites Protocols of the Elders of Zion as evidence of a Zionist plan for world domination.

"Under the wing of Islam" refers to Dhimmi, which, at best, reduces non-Muslims to second-class status. At worst, well, how d'you think a group which claims divine warrant to murder Jews, compares them to Nazis (Article Twenty), and cites the forgery used by the Nazi Party as justification for the Holocaust is likely to behave?

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Anglican_Brat
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There are plenty of political parties in the world that I find abhorrent. The GOP in the United States, for example, whose support of the Second Amendment, arguable is a vote for more violence and more death of innocent civilians.

Yet, I think it is wrong to invade a country simply because it elects a political party we don't like.

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Byron
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
From the "Lillian Goldman Law Library"? I'm sure that's a reliable source. [Disappointed]

It's a part of New Haven Community College, so yes, it is.

The suggestion that having a Jewish benefactor is automatically grounds to suspect a university of forgery is, well, there's no non-hellish way to say it, so I won't.

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
There are plenty of political parties in the world that I find abhorrent. The GOP in the United States, for example, whose support of the Second Amendment, arguable is a vote for more violence and more death of innocent civilians.

Yet, I think it is wrong to invade a country simply because it elects a political party we don't like.

It's a bit like the kerfuffle in Ukraine, where another country has also intervened militarily, except that the West objects to Russia but not to Israel.

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Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
I'm missing any references to killing Jews for the sake of it in there. [...] If you can point me to something more obviously genocidal I've missed I'm happy to be corrected.

In addition to Article Seven, just quoted, Article Fifteen calls for Holy War against "the Jews' usurpation of Palestine," and Article Thirty-Two cites Protocols of the Elders of Zion as evidence of a Zionist plan for world domination.
Fair enough. I missed the reference to the protocols on my read through. I would say that thinking Jew=Israeli is slightly more forgivable when the people blowing up your house are Israeli Jews than it is when your thousands of miles away and the two are obviously distinct.

quote:

"Under the wing of Islam" refers to Dhimmi, which, at best, reduces non-Muslims to second-class status. At worst, well, how d'you think a group which claims divine warrant to murder Jews, compares them to Nazis (Article Twenty), and cites the forgery used by the Nazi Party as justification for the Holocaust is likely to behave?

I didn't say it was good. I said it wasn't genocidal.

It's also worth pointing out that quite a few of Hamas leaders have made it clear that the charter is not relevant and that the Palestinian people could negotiate a peace based on the 1967 borders. It's a little bit like using the Westminster Confession to claim that the Church of Scotland is anti-Catholic.

[ 02. August 2014, 21:22: Message edited by: Arethosemyfeet ]

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Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
From the "Lillian Goldman Law Library"? I'm sure that's a reliable source. [Disappointed]

It's a part of New Haven Community College, so yes, it is.

The suggestion that having a Jewish benefactor is automatically grounds to suspect a university of forgery is, well, there's no non-hellish way to say it, so I won't.

Agreed. It's the Hamas charter, no doubt about it. A lot of it stinks. All we're arguing about is precisely how much, and how relevant it is to Hamas's current agenda.
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Mudfrog
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The fact that Hamas has fired over 3000 rockets into Israel shows what they think of the charter. It still stands.

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
From the "Lillian Goldman Law Library"? I'm sure that's a reliable source. [Disappointed]

It's a part of New Haven Community College, so yes, it is.

The suggestion that having a Jewish benefactor is automatically grounds to suspect a university of forgery is, well, there's no non-hellish way to say it, so I won't.

Agreed. It's the Hamas charter, no doubt about it. A lot of it stinks.
...and how offensive the policies of a supposedly civilised and democratic neighbour are.
quote:

All we're arguing about is precisely how much, and how relevant it is to Hamas's current agenda.

Whether we like it or not Hamas governs Gaza. Why shouldn't that place be allowed to defend itself?

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Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The fact that Hamas has fired over 3000 rockets into Israel shows what they think of the charter. It still stands.

Bollocks. Gaza has been blockaded by Israel for years. All the rockets show is that Hamas are trying to at least give appearance of resistance, however ineffective. If Palestine was free and sovereign and they were still firing rockets you'd have a point. It's the difference between the IRA and the Provisional IRA. The IRA wanted a free, united Ireland but ultimately accepted partition. The Provos didn't.
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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The fact that Hamas has fired over 3000 rockets into Israel shows what they think of the charter. It still stands.

I wonder how many shells, mortar rounds and bombs have come the other way?

Israel disregards the principles of reasonable force and restraint completely. Eventually even Israel's friends and other neighbours will tire of its arrogance and God knows what will happen then.

Still, it won't be Israel's fault will it.

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Byron
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
There are plenty of political parties in the world that I find abhorrent. The GOP in the United States, for example, whose support of the Second Amendment, arguable is a vote for more violence and more death of innocent civilians.

Yet, I think it is wrong to invade a country simply because it elects a political party we don't like.

You're comparing the right to carry a sidearm for self-defense (which hasn't stopped American homicide rates dropping for several decades) to incitement to genocide? Well, that's your prerogative.

The latest invasion may be unjustified. The wider point is that no "peace process" can work so long as Hamas enjoys widespread support amongst Palestinians, because they reject peaceful coexistence under any terms. Denying this leads to Oslo Syndrome, where ideology is ignored, and peace is just another concession away.

That's the fundamental difference between Israel and many Palestinian Arabs. So long as its survival is guaranteed, Israel's willing to live side-by-side with a Palestinian state; the Palestinian leadership has repeatedly sabotaged negotiations. Arafat did it in 2000 at Camp David, and promptly launched the Second Intifada; Fatah did it again this year by jumping into bed with Hamas.

Glib calls for "both sides" to "get along" ignore the longstanding desire of many Arabs to end Israel's existence. Progress is possible, as Israel's treaties with Jordan and Egypt show, but only when groups like Hamas are out of the equation.

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Byron
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
[...] Israel disregards the principles of reasonable force and restraint completely. [...]

Even if we put aside its "ambiguous" nukes, Israel's more than capable of flattening Gaza. It hasn't, or anything close to it. That alone proves restraint. Warning civilians that you're about to attack, shows a genuine desire to minimize innocent deaths.
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irish_lord99
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quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
That's the fundamental difference between Israel and many Palestinian Arabs. So long as its survival is guaranteed, Israel's willing to live side-by-side with a Palestinian state...

So what do you then make of reports of Israel mistreatment of Palestinians during peace-time?

Do you believe that if Hamas were eliminated that Israel would lift it's blockade of Gaza?

Can you understand how your average Palestinian might see joining up with Hamas to be his only option for a better life, one that might include adequate volumes of drinking water for him and his family and maybe some land to grow crops?

Let me reiterate that I think Hamas is an evil, terrorist organization.

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Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
You're comparing the right to carry a sidearm for self-defense (which hasn't stopped American homicide rates dropping for several decades) to incitement to genocide? Well, that's your prerogative.

The latest invasion may be unjustified. The wider point is that no "peace process" can work so long as Hamas enjoys widespread support amongst Palestinians, because they reject peaceful coexistence under any terms. Denying this leads to Oslo Syndrome, where ideology is ignored, and peace is just another concession away.

That's two flat out lies in quick succession. It was Israel who refused to budge, and Hamas leaders have said that recognition of Israel is a decision for the Palestinian people. There are conflicting statements, but this article records the public views of one Hamas leader in Gaza:
http://www.haaretz.com/news/haniyeh-hamas-willing-to-accept-palestinian-state-with-1967-borders-1.256915

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
Warning civilians that you're about to attack shows a genuine desire to minimize innocent deaths.

"We are about to turn your family home into a pile of rubble. Run!"

It's a tricky one, isn't it?

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Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
[...] Israel disregards the principles of reasonable force and restraint completely. [...]

Even if we put aside its "ambiguous" nukes, Israel's more than capable of flattening Gaza. It hasn't, or anything close to it. That alone proves restraint. Warning civilians that you're about to attack, shows a genuine desire to minimize innocent deaths.
It shows a genuine desire to have a fig leaf cover so that the useful idiots in the west will still defend them. A warning doesn't do a lot of good if there is nowhere to go that they're not shelling. Like schools or hospitals. Also, the IRA often gave warnings before bomb attacks. Didn't make them any less terrorist murderers.

[ 02. August 2014, 22:07: Message edited by: Arethosemyfeet ]

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Byron
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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Fair enough. I missed the reference to the protocols on my read through. I would say that thinking Jew=Israeli is slightly more forgivable when the people blowing up your house are Israeli Jews than it is when your thousands of miles away and the two are obviously distinct.

This works on the assumption that groups like Hamas are a reaction to Israeli mistreatment, and not a consequence of ideology.

If Israeli mistreatment were to blame, Arabs wouldn't have attacked Jews back in the days of Mandatory Palestine, nor would an Arab coalition have invaded Israel the second it declared its independence (in-line with the same "international law" that so many in the Arab world now appeal to). We'd also expect Egypt and Jordan to have been subjected to a campaign of suicide bombings for the 20 years in which they occupied Gaza and the West Bank, and Egypt subjected to rocket attacks for enforcing the Gaza blockade.
quote:
I didn't say [Dhimmi] was good. I said it wasn't genocidal.

It's also worth pointing out that quite a few of Hamas leaders have made it clear that the charter is not relevant and that the Palestinian people could negotiate a peace based on the 1967 borders. It's a little bit like using the Westminster Confession to claim that the Church of Scotland is anti-Catholic.

Hamas refuses to renounce its charter. Even if it did, given the document's genocidal antisemitism, it'd need to offer compelling evidence of its sincerity.

The rocket attacks speak louder than its PR. Israel withdrew from Gaza back in '05; the rocket attacks didn't stop, they intensified. Hardly a sign of peaceful intent, is it?

No Jewish person who values their life would subject themselves to this group's "tolerance."

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Byron
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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
It shows a genuine desire to have a fig leaf cover so that the useful idiots in the west will still defend them. A warning doesn't do a lot of good if there is nowhere to go that they're not shelling. Like schools or hospitals. Also, the IRA often gave warnings before bomb attacks. Didn't make them any less terrorist murderers.

You're claiming that Israel routinely cuts of escape routes with shelling? Could we get some evidence of that?

"Terrorist murderers" deliberately kill civilians to achieve their aims with fear. Israel's capable of doing a helluva lot more damage than it is doing. If terrorism is its aim, it's not doing a very good job.

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Byron
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quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
So what do you then make of reports of Israel mistreatment of Palestinians during peace-time?

Depends on the reports. Many are obviously reliable. Israel is an occupying power, and no occupying power comes out clean.
quote:
Do you believe that if Hamas were eliminated that Israel would lift it's blockade of Gaza?
Israel and Egypt's blockade. Why does Gaza's southern neighbor so often get omitted?

Yes, if rockets stopped flying out of Gaza, there's every reason to believe that both nations would life the blockade.
quote:
Can you understand how your average Palestinian might see joining up with Hamas to be his only option for a better life, one that might include adequate volumes of drinking water for him and his family and maybe some land to grow crops?
Yes, of course, and if there wasn't a long history of antisemitism, combined with efforts to driven Israel into the sea, I'd buy this explanation.

Many in the West buy Hamas as the fruits of oppression 'cause they can empathize with that. What they can't empathize with is ideological fervor. Hamas know this, and play up the reaction to oppression narrative.
quote:
Let me reiterate that I think Hamas is an evil, terrorist organization.
Ditto. Problem is, many Arabs in Palestine don't, and their belief isn't tied to Israel's behavior, but an ideology that says Israel has no right to exist.
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Mudfrog
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
Warning civilians that you're about to attack shows a genuine desire to minimize innocent deaths.

"We are about to turn your family home into a pile of rubble. Run!"

It's a tricky one, isn't it?

It's more than we gave the Germans...

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Curiosity killed ...

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How easy is it to run in a strip of land that is 5 miles across and 27 miles long, and populated by 1.816 million people? Particularly when the places of shelter, the UN schools are being bombed by Israel, even after Israel have been given the co-ordinates of these schools.

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Mudfrog
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quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:


Do you believe that if Hamas were eliminated that Israel would lift it's blockade of Gaza?

Can you understand how your average Palestinian might see joining up with Hamas to be his only option for a better life, one that might include adequate volumes of drinking water for him and his family and maybe some land to grow crops?

Let me reiterate that I think Hamas is an evil, terrorist organization.

Let me also reiterate that Egypt is also blockading Gaza - no condemnation there...

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Byron
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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
That's two flat out lies in quick succession.

I'll ask you to withdraw accusations of lying. I have no intention to deceive anyone. I couldn't even if I wanted to. This is all on record.

I'm happy to admit any mistakes I've made. Where, specifically, d'you think I'm mistaken?
quote:
It was Israel who refused to budge, and Hamas leaders have said that recognition of Israel is a decision for the Palestinian people. There are conflicting statements, but this article records the public views of one Hamas leader in Gaza:
http://www.haaretz.com/news/haniyeh-hamas-willing-to-accept-palestinian-state-with-1967-borders-1.256915


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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
Let me reiterate that I think Hamas is an evil, terrorist organization.

Ditto. Problem is, many Arabs in Palestine don't, and their belief isn't tied to Israel's behavior, but an ideology that says Israel has no right to exist.
You have hit on something there. If you live in Gaza you or your family has probably lost property to some Israeli incomer and there's every chance you don't have a job or much of a future. You might have a cabbage patch to tend but probably no water. The democratic alternatives to Hamas haven't achieved much for you, so why not give them a go?

To take a parallel to Northern Ireland, the Peace Process came about when the more extreme political parties, Sinn Fein and the DUP, replaced the moderate ones.

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ToujoursDan

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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:


Do you believe that if Hamas were eliminated that Israel would lift it's blockade of Gaza?

Can you understand how your average Palestinian might see joining up with Hamas to be his only option for a better life, one that might include adequate volumes of drinking water for him and his family and maybe some land to grow crops?

Let me reiterate that I think Hamas is an evil, terrorist organization.

Let me also reiterate that Egypt is also blockading Gaza - no condemnation there...
Yes there is...

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Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan

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Martin60
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What has total war got to do with it Mudfrog?

How in the name of CHRIST does that justify ANYTHING?

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Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
Warning civilians that you're about to attack shows a genuine desire to minimize innocent deaths.

"We are about to turn your family home into a pile of rubble. Run!"

It's a tricky one, isn't it?

It's more than we gave the Germans...
And more than the Germans gave us.

So, here's a question for you: did the deliberate targeting of civilian areas (leaving aside whether or not civilians were there at the time) shorten the war for either the Germans or the Allies?

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Belle Ringer
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Doesn't history have a lot to do with present day decisions in some cultures? It's not just about today's battles but just as much about how your great great great great grandfather dissed mine.

Someone sent me this again (it's been around for a while); intriguing to see how lacking my own historical knowledge of the area is, I couldn't recognize all the changing claimants to the land. This Land Is Mine

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:


Do you believe that if Hamas were eliminated that Israel would lift it's blockade of Gaza?

Can you understand how your average Palestinian might see joining up with Hamas to be his only option for a better life, one that might include adequate volumes of drinking water for him and his family and maybe some land to grow crops?

Let me reiterate that I think Hamas is an evil, terrorist organization.

Let me also reiterate that Egypt is also blockading Gaza - no condemnation there...
Yes there is...
I must've missed the anti-Egyptian demos that took place around the world.
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Byron
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quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Doesn't history have a lot to do with present day decisions in some cultures? It's not just about today's battles but just as much about how your great great great great grandfather dissed mine.

Someone sent me this again (it's been around for a while); intriguing to see how lacking my own historical knowledge of the area is, I couldn't recognize all the changing claimants to the land. This Land Is Mine

Paley's got an illustrated Who's Who on her blog. It's a great video, and thankfully, there are many in the region, on both sides of the divide, who don't buy into the God-gave-it-to-me! narrative.
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Curiosity killed ...

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Very bleak summary of the situation on Broadcasting House this morning.

The last time there was a truce Hamas had the support of the Egyptian Government which brokered the deal and agreed various concessions for Hamas. But this time the Egyptian Government has changed and there is no support for Hamas, so there no will to agree any concessions. This time Israel can bomb Gaza and Hamas into submission with impunity, remove the tunnels and whatever else they want to and then enforce a unilateral cease-fire. The prediction was tht Hamas will not win and won't get any concessions.

Remind me, which country is going to be driven into the sea here?

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Gamaliel
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The problem is, Hamas holding onto the hardline charter simply reinforces Israel's view that it could be the subject of genocide.

Surely the last thing one should or ought to say to a people who have experienced genocidal attacks many, many times in the past is to say, 'Ok, we're going to keep trying to kill you ...'

So no, I wouldn't want to let Hamas off the hook. There's a chilling Facebook video doing the rounds of an Islamic militant questioning a Jewish speaker after a talk somewhere in the US. The speaker has little difficulty getting her to acknowledge that she would favour genocide against the Jews.

Apparently, a Hezbollah leader once said that he would be pleased to see all the Jews gathering in Israel as it would make it easier to slaughter them in one place rather than hunting them down all over the world.

The Jewish speaker asked his interlocutor whether she was for or against such a proposal. She answered 'for'.

Ok, so in the heat of the moment in public debate it's easy to say stupid things, but even so ...

Whether the Pro-Palestinian interlocutor genuinely believes that our was driven into a corner by a rhetorical response, I don't know - but it's worrying either way.

It's also counter-productive. The more Israel believes that Hamas is out to wipe them out the more it'll shell the Gaza strip or even re-occupy it.

They've also got some captured soldiers to recover. They'll go all out to try to rescue them as they know only too well that hostages can be exchanged for the release of more militants.

And so the spiral goes on ... the more boots on the ground the more Israeli personnel will be killed or captured and, I suspect, the stiffer the resistance. I can imagine people who aren't radicalised now becoming more radicalised as soon as the tanks and infantry units roll further in. How could it be otherwise?

The more that happens the greater the Israeli response and the more Palestinian civilians will be killed.

It's one awful, bloody mess.

Both sides have blood all over their hands. Sure, Israel has a right to defend itself but it is by no means a liberal, cuddly state. It supported Apartheid in South Africa, it stood by while the warring factions massacred one another in Lebanon - in fact it actually engineered some of those massacres.

Yes, there are moderate Israelis. Let's support them. But the hawks and the racists ... they just as big a bunch of bastards as the jihadits are.

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Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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quetzalcoatl
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I think also Israel is being squeezed by the shifts in tectonic plates in the region. Iraq and Syria are imploding; Lebanon and Libya are frail as states; ISIS is trying to destroy modern cartography.

I am sure this will produce tension in Israeli politics and intelligence - should they just occupy the West Bank, and get it over with, and declare Palestine ex-Palestine?

This is probably too drastic at the moment for many Israelis, but it might become tempting.

Basically, though, Israel has the big guns, and will get more big guns from the US. 'It is much safer to be feared than loved'. (Machiavelli).

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Belle Ringer
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Someone upthread mentioned there was no Palestinian state before Israel was formed out of the land. That sounds to me like the argument the Indians/NativeAmericans/First Nations had no lands because ownership (a foreign concept to them) wasn't registered with European rulers, so the lands were "empty" and free for newcomers to seize (by force when necessary).

Same attitude is affecting native groups in parts of Africa, where for example pygmys are not considered citizens of the state they live in, so they have no rights.

Which ethnic groups deserve their own nation-state and which don't? Kurds? Jews? What about those whose traditional way of life is inconsistent with modern chopping up territories into small separate states: Roma, San Bushmen, middle east nomadic groups, etc.

Fascinating map of the Balkans 2/3s down the page here showing the ever changing boundaries, growing shrinking combining dividing, over the past couple centuries. As Rodney King said during LA riots, "Can we all get along?" Is the answer "NO!"

The Palestinians didn't have a state, neither did the people living in what is now Jordon or many other modernly created political states in the region which had been ruled as parts of large colonial territories for centuries.

The bigger problem with Israel - and a growing problem with global warming beginning to force large people-groups to move (but the problem goes back centuries including the colonization of the Americas and Australia etc)-- there is no empty land to move to. Maybe there never was empty land.

Are we going to see more and more wars as nation-groups are forced by sea rise to move and carve out a new nation-state of their own elsewhere? Will they declare land with people living in it "empty" and therefore free to take (by force if necessary)? Who gets to carve out a new nation-state and who doesn't?

Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
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There was one captured Israeli soldier. The Israelis killed him with his captors. In an air strike.

It's irrelevant how psychotic some Palestinians and Muslims are. Driven so by Christendom's injustice.

Israel should unilaterally, simultaneously pull out of Gaza, lift the blockade, fully compensate the Gazans.

Regardless.

They need to go in to recovery.

And if they must, keep their powder dry ONLY to be used within their own ground and air space.

Rockets with a 1:500 'enemy' kill rate are irrelevant (they are 20 x more effecvtive at killing their own side by Israeli overreaction).

The odd tunnel breakout does not justify levelling Rafah.

What IS (the former ISIS ... ancient Babylon anyone?) is doing, what's happening in Libya, Syria, Iraq where Muslims are slaughtering Muslims with utter abandon is irrelevant.

America and Britain will pay far more for Gaza, for denying its statehood and America for backing Israel and for creating all these hells than Israel could for being half way civilized.

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Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
ToujoursDan

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:


Do you believe that if Hamas were eliminated that Israel would lift it's blockade of Gaza?

Can you understand how your average Palestinian might see joining up with Hamas to be his only option for a better life, one that might include adequate volumes of drinking water for him and his family and maybe some land to grow crops?

Let me reiterate that I think Hamas is an evil, terrorist organization.

Let me also reiterate that Egypt is also blockading Gaza - no condemnation there...
Yes there is...
I must've missed the anti-Egyptian demos that took place around the world.
I must have missed where the Egyptians built settlements on the West Bank and bombed civilians in Gaza.

Clearly Egypt is afraid that if they lift their blockade, Gaza will become their problem and they will be forced to take care of the Gazan population and deal with additional extremism from Hama, problems which Egypt already has in spades at home. You'll get no argument from me that this is ethically questionable, but hardly in the same category.

[ 03. August 2014, 15:19: Message edited by: ToujoursDan ]

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quetzalcoatl
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Belle Ringer wrote:

Are we going to see more and more wars as nation-groups are forced by sea rise to move and carve out a new nation-state of their own elsewhere? Will they declare land with people living in it "empty" and therefore free to take (by force if necessary)? Who gets to carve out a new nation-state and who doesn't?

Interesting stuff. There is quite a lot of commentary at the moment, on the way in which the tectonic plates of the post-colonial settlements in the Middle East are now sliding around, seemingly out of control. In fact, some refer to the Westphalian Treaty which established the principle of the nation state itself - is this now beginning to melt?

Certainly, the states in the Middle East are looking very fragile - Iraq and Syria imploding, and Lebanon and Libya looking none too healthy.

I would think that most politicians and intelligence bods haven't a clue what is going on, and what to do. In this climate, I would think that Israel are pretty safe - they will get mega-arms if necessary from the West, and they will be able to crush the Palestinians. Morality is a side-issue really.

'Either treat men well, or crush them'. (The Prince).

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Penny S
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I am puzzled by the reaction to the tunnels. In the Middle Ages, tunnelling into beseiged places was common. Those inside had methods for locating the tunnels during digging - one I recall involved metal bowls of water which showed the vibrations of digging. At Dover Castle, the French sap under the gate was intercepted by another tunnel from inside which allowed the defenders to deal with the attackers (and possibly use their own tunnel for sorties into the attacking camp.)
I seem to recall that POW camp staff had methods as well, possibly using the sort of poles that water engineers use to listen for mains leaks.
There are better tools now, such as ground radar.
The sensible method of dealing with "terror tunnels" is to locate them during the boring process, and either intercept and block them from above when they reach your own territory, or wait and ambush the attackers when they emerge, when the tunnel can either be used for reactive attacks at those waiting at the entrance, or simply blocked with concrete. Or alternatively, to sink that blasted (wish it was) wall well below ground level.
Pulverising the homes above the tunnels is the proverbial sledgehammer, in literal as well as metphorical sense. And creates more enemies.

[ 03. August 2014, 15:33: Message edited by: Penny S ]

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
... I just read Max Blumenthal's "Goliath: Fear and Loathing in Greater Israel." Blumenthal opened my eyes in that the idea of Israel being a multi-ethnic, inclusive democracy is a myth and that Israel has a sizable and frightening far right that would expel the Arabs and the African immigrants out if given the chance.

Many western liberals have been conned by the Israeli media machine promoting Israel as a progressive democracy.

So having a sizeable and frightening far right hovering threateningly in the background excludes a state from being entitled to claim to be a progressive democracy?

Tea Party? Jean-Marie Le Pen? BNP?

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
So having a sizeable and frightening far right hovering threateningly in the background excludes a state from being entitled to claim to be a progressive democracy?

"Hovering in the background"? You think Israel's far right is merely hovering in the background? Netanyahu is some kind of moderate, maybe?

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Arethosemyfeet
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It's also instructive how willing "mainstream" parties are to cosy up to them. The BNP and Front Nationale are ostracised by the public at large, which is less true of the Tea Party (who, to be fair, a less obviously neo-nazis than the other two) and not true at all of the far right in Israel, who are more often than not part of the governing coalition. And Likud aren't exactly fluffy bunnies in the first place.
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