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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Israel's troubles
irish_lord99
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
The pro-Israel lobby in Washington and the evangelicals who believe that Israel needs to rebuild the Temple in order to force Jesus to come back, to get rid of all them evil liberals.

You err. When Jesus comes back it will get rid of the good conservatives, and the evil liberals will be Left Behind to face the tribulation, which will feature a particularly nasty war between Gog and Magog in the middle east.
I thought Gog was Soviet Russia? [Biased]
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Sioni Sais
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My take on Baroness Warsi's resignation from the UK government is that it is a symptom of deeper and wider misgivings. Nick Clegg (who?) has said that there are differing opinions in government, which is against cabinet government protocol, while Osborne reckons her resignation is "disappointing and unnecessary", which is an uncannily accurate assessment of George Osborne.

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Dave W.
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quote:
Originally posted by mrWaters:
However fact is that quite a lot of them live in states which are heavily contested between Republicans and Democrats [...][

How certain are you of this "fact"? And do you really think "quite a lot" is anywhere near 95%?
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dyfrig
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quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
I thought Gog was Soviet Russia? [Biased]

That was the clear meaning of Revelation in 1987. Obviously it's changed now. Get with the programme, dude.

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
You err. When Jesus comes back it will get rid of the good conservatives, and the evil liberals will be Left Behind to face the tribulation, which will feature a particularly nasty war between Gog and Magog in the middle east.

I thought Gog was Soviet Russia? [Biased]
Gog has varied over the years. Since 1776 Gog has various been Britain, Spain, Mexico, Native Americans, Japan (with a side order of Nazi Germany) then Soviet Russia and Libya. Right now it's North Korea, although Iran was up there until just a few months ago.

When the oil runs out I suppose Saudi Arabia will fit the role.

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Enoch
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I thought Gog was a hill just outside Cambridge.

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Helen-Eva
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When I saw that Baronness Warsi had resigned over the UK government position on Gaza it led me to try to work out what the UK government position was other than "what is happening is a bad thing and ought to stop". Have I missed something?

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Curiosity killed ...

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Other than the ongoing £8bn sales of arms?

Or David Cameron's luke warm response where he has upheld the right of Israel to protect their borders, his condemnation of Hamas as an appalling terrorist organisation, and his only outright condemnation of Israel being the bombing of UN schools?

Or there's Philip Hammond's response in an interview to the Daily Telegraph:
quote:
“The British public has a strong sense that the situation of the civilian population in Gaza is simply intolerable and must be addressed – and we agree with them.
“There must be a humanitarian ceasefire that is without conditions,” Mr Hammond says. “We have to get the killing to stop.”

The rest of the interview mentions concerns about a Jewish backlash in the UK

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orfeo

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Regarding the location of the Jewish population of America...

I don't believe New York is a swing state.

Also note the distinct lack of Jews in Ohio.

(One bit of googling. One.)

[ 05. August 2014, 13:35: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Helen-Eva:
When I saw that Baronness Warsi had resigned over the UK government position on Gaza it led me to try to work out what the UK government position was other than "what is happening is a bad thing and ought to stop". Have I missed something?

Baroness Warsi's ego?
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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
My take on Baroness Warsi's resignation from the UK government is that it is a symptom of deeper and wider misgivings. Nick Clegg (who?) has said that there are differing opinions in government, which is against cabinet government protocol, while Osborne reckons her resignation is "disappointing and unnecessary", which is an uncannily accurate assessment of George Osborne.

It's one of the few things she has said or done which I feel respect for. She has some principles, anyway.

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Robert Armin

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Regarding the location of the Jewish population of America...

I don't believe New York is a swing state.

Also note the distinct lack of Jews in Ohio.

(One bit of googling. One.)

That's what I was querying. How important is "the Jewish vote" in America? Is it monolithic? And is it so strong that no President dare criticise Israel?

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
That's what I was querying. How important is "the Jewish vote" in America? Is it monolithic? And is it so strong that no President dare criticise Israel?

Ask how important is the Jewish AND Israel-supporting conservative Christian vote. Pretty darned.

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
That's what I was querying. How important is "the Jewish vote" in America? Is it monolithic? And is it so strong that no President dare criticise Israel?

Ask how important is the Jewish AND Israel-supporting conservative Christian vote. Pretty darned.
We've got that unquestioning support of Israel amongst the more conservative British Christians too. No point confusing them with facts, their minds are made up.

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OddJob
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Small statistical sampling can produce odd results, but I do think sentiment is changing amongst us doctrinal conservatives, and quite rapidly.

Views expressed towards 'Israel' amongst British doctrinal conservatives in the infancy of online fora about a decade ago suggested a more or less even split between support and scepticism. On this and other fora nowadays, I'd estimate only about 20% support for 'Israel' amongst doctrinal conservatives (or radicals, as I've always viewed us). This corresponds to the rate of change in attitudes I've heard face to face.

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LeRoc

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quote:
OddJob: Views expressed towards 'Israel' amongst British doctrinal conservatives in the infancy of online fora about a decade ago suggested a more or less even split between support and scepticism. On this and other fora nowadays, I'd estimate only about 20% support for 'Israel' amongst doctrinal conservatives (or radicals, as I've always viewed us). This corresponds to the rate of change in attitudes I've heard face to face.
My experience is the same. Die-hards will still continue to argue that whatever Israel does is just. But it becomes increasingly difficult to do so, and their numbers grow less and less.

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Dave W.
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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Regarding the location of the Jewish population of America...

I don't believe New York is a swing state.

Also note the distinct lack of Jews in Ohio.

(One bit of googling. One.)

And in fact New York, California, and Massachusetts alone account for nearly 50%, and only 23% live in the 2012 swing states in Wikipedia's map - and 9.5% of those are in Florida.
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ToujoursDan

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I'd argue that at some time in the 1970s Jews (at least Ashkenazi Jews, which are the most visible Jews in Canada, the U.S. and Israel) became honorary whites as far as white conservative Christians are concerned. Prior to that, they were targets of discrimination - several cities in the U.S. had legal "covenants" which forbade Jews from buying property and a few forced Jews to leave the city at sundown - perpetrated by Christians of all stripes. But at some point in the 1970s white Conservative Christians decided Jews are part of the white tribe. They're part of "us". Palestinians in particular and Arabs as a whole definitely aren't part of our tribe (though we'll take their oil.)

Much of how we behave in Trans-Jordan strikes me as tribal and the U.S. has decided that Jews are "our" tribe. That's one reason we've been so willing to throw Palestinian Christians under the bus.

Israel in return cultivates this relationship by emphasizing how much they are like us, even though the religious values of the growing, influential Orthodox movement isn't all that different than their right-wing Muslim neighbours.

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Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:

Israel in return cultivates this relationship by emphasizing how much they are like us, even though the religious values of the growing, influential Orthodox movement isn't all that different than their right-wing Muslim neighbours.

Those values aren't that different from those of the fundie evangelicals either.
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Mudfrog
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It seems to me that we have 2 sources of criticism of Israel - Hamas and the UN.

Can anyone tell me how neutral the UN representatives within Gaza actually are?

Are they like the Red Cross in WWII - a benign froup of 'Swiss people gazing neutrally at a conflict to ensure people are treated nicely'...

... or is the UN in Gaza actually made up of Palestinians who either actively support or merely fail to condemn Hamas' activities and policies?

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Doc Tor
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Oh FFS Mudfrog. UN schools are being shelled. What do you expect them to say? "Yeah, that's fine. We appreciate what you're trying to do, so go right ahead and keep dropping those bombs on us."

[brick wall]

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
... or is the UN in Gaza actually made up of Palestinians who either actively support or merely fail to condemn Hamas' activities and policies?

I presume that if you're dealing with a Hamas-type organisation on a day-to-day basis you're limited on what you're able to say about events? Criticising the regime could presumably mean getting kicked out, or worse?
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Kwesi
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Mudfrog
quote:
It seems to me that we have 2 sources of criticism of Israel - Hamas and the UN.

Might one suggest a third: that of largely a-political decent people reacting to the images of devastation, particularly the severe injuries to children, in Gaza?
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LeRoc

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Among which quite a number of Jews inside and outside of Israel.

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Mudfrog
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From France24

And I know you'll just reject the source out of hand but THIS may be worth posting

[ 06. August 2014, 11:09: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
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Mudfrog
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THIS is also worth reading because it puts the present conflict into a wider setting. Why indeed are we hearing such little condemnation from the surrounding region?

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
From France24

And I know you'll just reject the source out of hand but THIS may be worth posting

Equally from here http://www.timesofisrael.com/3-idf-soldiers-killed-in-booby-trapped-unrwa-clinic/

"However, the Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories, the military unit that implements government policies in the Palestinian areas, later said that the clinic in Abu Daka, outside Khan Younis, was last registered as a sensitive location three years ago, “and it hasn’t been since.”

The spokesperson said the site had not been registered then as belonging to UNRWA, leading to speculation that, perhaps, militants stole the sign and tacked it on the door, posting it as a security umbrella under which a tunnel could be dug."

The Jerusalem Post reports neither angle - probably because there is little evidence to support your initial claim.

[ 06. August 2014, 11:22: Message edited by: chris stiles ]

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Gamaliel
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Mudfrog, here's a question for you.

Why does anyone who criticises Israel have to have questionable motives as far as you are concerned?

Are you saying that anyone who does so has to be some kind of Hamas stooge or else blinded by liberal propaganda?

I'd also postulate that things aren't so binary that they fall into a neat Hamas/UN axis (if there is one) and a Pro-Israel whatever happens axis.

Perhaps I inhabit a different universe to the one you live in? One with more shades of grey in it perhaps?

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Gamaliel
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American Thinker? [Confused]

Isn't that an oxymoron? [Razz]

No, of course it isn't, but I'm becoming increasingly suspicious of any news-source or website that has the word 'American' as the first word in its title ...

'American Patriot', 'American Freedom-Lover', 'American Particularist'.

They'll either have a picture of Thomas Jefferson or crossed rifles or the Statue of Liberty, a Bald Eagle or some other suitably hijacked US icon - or all these elements at once.

They are all short-hand for crazy 6-Day Creationist gun-nuts from below the Mason-Dixon Line.

I recognise the signs. I switch off ...

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Callan
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
... or is the UN in Gaza actually made up of Palestinians who either actively support or merely fail to condemn Hamas' activities and policies?

I presume that if you're dealing with a Hamas-type organisation on a day-to-day basis you're limited on what you're able to say about events? Criticising the regime could presumably mean getting kicked out, or worse?
So, basically the UN are totally cool with the Israelis dropping ordnance on Class 4B but dare not mention the fact in case they upset Hamas? Glad we sorted that one out.

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Gamaliel
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The problem is, that my take can easily lead me to equal and opposite errors ...

I may well one day overlook a perfectly respectable news-source entitled 'American something or other' because I've heard 'Wolf!' cried so many times by the fruit-cake 'Patriot' types.

Which is why we need to tread carefully through this whole minefield.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Gildas:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
... or is the UN in Gaza actually made up of Palestinians who either actively support or merely fail to condemn Hamas' activities and policies?

I presume that if you're dealing with a Hamas-type organisation on a day-to-day basis you're limited on what you're able to say about events? Criticising the regime could presumably mean getting kicked out, or worse?
So, basically the UN are totally cool with the Israelis dropping ordnance on Class 4B but dare not mention the fact in case they upset Hamas? Glad we sorted that one out.
Erm, no. I was responding to Mudfrog's point about the apparently muted criticism of Hamas by the UN.
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Sioni Sais
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The UN is simply uncool with the proportion of civilian casualties in Gaza. So is Baroness Warsi and a growing number of MPs on the government benches. Israeli tanks and troops have been right in there and with the high-tech military hardware Israel possesses, one would think they could miss schools and hospitals and concentrate on what really are the military targets.

It's almost as if Israel is entirely content to blast every present inhabitant in Gaza into the sea: after all, that is still Likud party policy.

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Belle Ringer
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I'm not sure what is different this time.

In past decades the broad public opinion wherever I lived was "anything Israel does is right" even when the same behavior was instantly condemned when done by any other country.

Any criticism of any action of the political state of Israel brought instant fierce accusations of anti-semitism, as if there was no distinction between the political state in the middle east and a Jewish individual in your home town. Maybe to some Jewish people, there is that close a sense of identification.

But right now, although some of my "conservative" friends still insist whatever Israel does is right solely because it's Israel doing it (Israel's well-being trumps all other moral considerations), I am hearing a lot of rumbling about Gaza and slaughter of children and UN refugee shelters. I am NOT looking for the info, and yet bumping into it. Hearing criticism of Israel in mainstream, without it being drowned out by "anti-Semitism!" accusations, is new to me.

What's different?

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LeRoc

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I think defending Israel's actions whatever it does becomes more and more difficult to the measure of which these actions become more and more indefensible.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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L'organist
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Perhaps one of the reasons why the rest of the middle east is muted in its condemnation of Israel is because they are well aware of who is arming Hamas, which is Iran.

Saudi Arabia, in particular, is less than keen that Hamas may finally, with Iranian help, be getting itself towards a position that the Saudis have long said they wanted - that is to being in a position to have a credible chance of inflicting serious and permanent damage to Israel.

It would seem its one thing to call for the annihilation of a country when it is unlikely to happen, quite another to face the prospect of one's deadliest foe bringing that prospect any closer.

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Robert Armin

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
That's what I was querying. How important is "the Jewish vote" in America? Is it monolithic? And is it so strong that no President dare criticise Israel?

Ask how important is the Jewish AND Israel-supporting conservative Christian vote. Pretty darned.
How important are those groups for Obama in particular, and Democrats in general? I can see them mattering to groups like the Tea-Baggers, but not to other groups (however, I am an ignorant Brit). As far as I know Obama has been reticent about condemning Israel for recent events.

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

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Callan
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The thing is that it makes a great deal of sense from a realpolitik point of view for the US to support Israel. It is a stable democracy and, therefore, a reliable ally, it has a massive vested interest in doing down groups that the US tends to regard as undesirable (Moscow backed one party states prior to the end of the Cold War, Radical Islamists subsequently). And, let's be brutally frank, if things did get unpleasant would you rather have the IDF on your side or the other lot. The Israelis may be a bit naughty when it comes to collateral damage but they can, at least, mix it up when it comes to a proper scrap. The Israelis know this, of course.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by Gildas:
The thing is that it makes a great deal of sense from a realpolitik point of view for the US to support Israel.

It doesn't, actually. There's no point having an ally whose main action is to make themselves international pariahs, particularly hated by their neighbours who you kind of need to be on good terms with because of the oil. Plus the IDF are only as good as they because the US keeps flogging them state of the art military kit and giving them cash to buy it with.
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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Plus the IDF are only as good as they because the US keeps flogging them state of the art military kit and giving them cash to buy it with.

This is somewhat true of the Egyptians too, isn't it?
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mrWaters
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Regarding the location of the Jewish population of America...

I don't believe New York is a swing state.

Also note the distinct lack of Jews in Ohio.

(One bit of googling. One.)

And in fact New York, California, and Massachusetts alone account for nearly 50%, and only 23% live in the 2012 swing states in Wikipedia's map - and 9.5% of those are in Florida.
Sorry for late replies but this topic is developing very rapidly.

My claim of 95% is based upon Mitchell Bard's book (2009) "The Israeli and Arab Lobbies" in which he claims that "Jews have devoted themselves to politics with almost religious fervor. (...) Jews have the highest percentage voter turnout of any ethnic group" and that "roughly 94 percent live in thirteen key electoral college states" which alone "are worth enough electoral votes to elect the president."

Additionally it is common knowledge that Jews in the US statistically speaking have a very privileged position in the economic system. There are numerous studies that prove that more than 45% of Jewish Americans earn more than 100 000$ a year. More than a double of average Americans.
According to Glenn Frankel's article in the Post (2006)between 1990 and 2006 the Israeli lobby donated more than 50 million compared to about 800 thousands by the Muslim/Palestinian lobby. It is almost a common knowledge that quite a lot of big donors in the US are either Jewish or very Jewish-friendly.

I got my information from other sources than Wikipedia, however if you look at wiki you'll also get the same information. Jewish population in the US is a major political force because of where they live and their political donations. Since the era of super PAC's, the Jewish Big Donors are even more important. I could probably write a whole essay on how important Jewish American populated states are however it would be way too long and no one would read it. I did study politics for 2 years and I have always been interested in politics.

[ 06. August 2014, 22:51: Message edited by: mrWaters ]

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orfeo

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quote:
Originally posted by mrWaters:
My claim of 95% is based upon Mitchell Bard's book (2009) "The Israeli and Arab Lobbies" in which he claims that "Jews have devoted themselves to politics with almost religious fervor. (...) Jews have the highest percentage voter turnout of any ethnic group" and that "roughly 94 percent live in thirteen key electoral college states" which alone "are worth enough electoral votes to elect the president."

That isn't swing states though. Thirteen key electoral college states just means thirteen BIG states. Which is entirely different. Read what he's actually said, not what you think he's said (and without whatever slant he's trying to put on it to make it sound far more significant than it actually is).

Guess who else mostly lives in big states? The entire freaking population. That's what being a big state means.

In the 2012 US Presidential election it was observed that the Democrats nearly have a lock on the Presidency because most of the largest states are now solidly Democratic. That isn't because Jews are tipping them over the line! They're nowhere near the line.

[ 06. August 2014, 23:33: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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orfeo

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PS Hopefully this will help you. 18 states that have voted Democrat consistently for a couple of decades, and they're mostly larger ones.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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mrWaters
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quote:
Originally posted by mrWaters:
A while ago I heard a theory that 95% of Jews live in swing states in the US (I use figure 95% as a symbol, meaning that they are an important. key demographic).

I claim that number of American Jews living in Florida alone constitutes them as a key demographic since only once in the US presidential elections history (since 1976)the candidate that won Florida did not win the whole country. Additionally Florida is always an important battleground. I admit that for example New York stopped being a swing state in the recent history (one can most likely attribute that towards the new Republicans, ever since the end of Regan).
I would like to also remind that apart from the federal elections, there are state elections in which the republicans won the New York senate (at least if one discounts the independent votes, if not then there is a small advantage towards the democrats.). However the American Jews have a big influence because of the campaign donations and the Super PACs money. Which means world to the politicians.

Can we at least agree that the American Jews are very influential in the election process? If not alone for their location, then for their fundraising capabilities.

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Demas
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Y'all have managed to obsess about Jews for 14 pages now. Well done! Keep going and who knows what great conclusions you might end up reaching.

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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray

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mrWaters
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I joined in this discussion only a few pages ago but if we stick around until at least 20 pages I believe that we can start discussing Illuminati and the cyclists! Can't wait!

On more serious note with my multi-post defense of one post I'm drifting more and more away from the "Israel's troubles".

[ 07. August 2014, 02:01: Message edited by: mrWaters ]

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Dave W.
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
American Thinker? [Confused]

Isn't that an oxymoron? [Razz]

No, of course it isn't...

You may not realize this, but not everyone agrees that insults are made instantly acceptable by the liberal use of smiley faces. If you find yourself compelled to instantly withdraw your slurs, perhaps you could instead try to avoid them altogether.
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orfeo

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quote:
Originally posted by mrWaters:
quote:
Originally posted by mrWaters:
A while ago I heard a theory that 95% of Jews live in swing states in the US (I use figure 95% as a symbol, meaning that they are an important. key demographic).

I claim that number of American Jews living in Florida alone constitutes them as a key demographic since only once in the US presidential elections history (since 1976)the candidate that won Florida did not win the whole country. Additionally Florida is always an important battleground. I admit that for example New York stopped being a swing state in the recent history (one can most likely attribute that towards the new Republicans, ever since the end of Regan).
I would like to also remind that apart from the federal elections, there are state elections in which the republicans won the New York senate (at least if one discounts the independent votes, if not then there is a small advantage towards the democrats.). However the American Jews have a big influence because of the campaign donations and the Super PACs money. Which means world to the politicians.

Can we at least agree that the American Jews are very influential in the election process? If not alone for their location, then for their fundraising capabilities.

Florida is one swing state, yes. That hardly proves that 95% of Jews live in swing states. They clearly don't. It doesn't make the 13 states cited into swing states. They clearly aren't.

I've no doubt that there are wealthy and powerful Jewish-Americans who are extremely effective raising funds. That wasn't what anyone took issue with. What we took issue with was some kind of veiled notion that Jews Control Elections.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
Y'all have managed to obsess about Jews for 14 pages now. Well done! Keep going and who knows what great conclusions you might end up reaching.

Nice to know the attempt to conflate Israel with Jews is alive and well.
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Demas
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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
Y'all have managed to obsess about Jews for 14 pages now. Well done! Keep going and who knows what great conclusions you might end up reaching.

Nice to know the attempt to conflate Israel with Jews is alive and well.
[Killing me]

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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray

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