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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Israel's troubles
Callan
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# 525

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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Gildas:
The thing is that it makes a great deal of sense from a realpolitik point of view for the US to support Israel. ]

It doesn't, actually. There's no point having an ally whose main action is to make themselves international pariahs, particularly hated by their neighbours who you kind of need to be on good terms with because of the oil.
Apart from the Gulf States most of the regimes that don't recognise Israel are either pariah regimes themselves (North Korea, Iran) not that important in the scheme of things (Chad, Guinea) or have more important local concerns to worry about (Libya, Iraq). The Gulf states haven't, since the Yom Kippur War, shown any reluctance to sell oil to the US over the issue of Israel. So I'd say that Israel's unpopularity in the Arab world is pretty much priced into US calculations as whether or not support for Israel works for the US or not. Opponents of Israel tend to overstate Israel's unpopularity in the world at large.

quote:
Plus the IDF are only as good as they because the US keeps flogging them state of the art military kit and giving them cash to buy it with.
Well, the Saudis buy rather a lot of kit but I notice that when the Iraqis were getting a bit frisky in the early 1990s the US thought it prudent to stick a few tank divisions on Saudi soil just to be on the safe side. There has never been any need to do that where the Israelis are concerned. In any event, so what? The IOC is hardly going to revise the outcome of the various conflicts in which Israel has been involved on the grounds that they were using American kit.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
I thought Gog was Soviet Russia? [Biased]

That was the clear meaning of Revelation in 1987. Obviously it's changed now. Get with the programme, dude.
I would have thought Putin's Russia would make a good Gog, but the American Religious Right thinks Putin is a Manly Man, so maybe not.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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irish_lord99
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# 16250

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The "Israel can do no wrong" sentiment is alive and well in American conservatism. Glenn Beck has been making claims that they have a Biblical claim to their land and right to defend it. Rush Limbaugh has been ranting on about how this is a war, and in war-time civilians die and that's necessary in order to 'win the war' and finally establish peace after you've properly subjugated your enemies.

I won't even go into the madness of Sean Hannity.

My conservative co-workers, who play this stuff all day long, finally asked me how I could possibly not support Israel in this conflict. When I tried to explain to them the conditions Israel imposes on the Palestinians at peace time, all I got was a confused stare. It was completely and totally original information to them, no doubt they figure its a lie spun up by the 'liberal, main-stream media.'

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Belle Ringer
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# 13379

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quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
The "Israel can do no wrong" sentiment is alive and well in American conservatism...

When I tried to explain to them the conditions Israel imposes on the Palestinians at peace time, all I got was a confused stare. It was completely and totally original information to them, no doubt they figure its a lie spun up by the 'liberal, main-stream media.'

Well, "if it's not on Fox News it isn't real."

But I'd say my friends response would go further - whatever the Palestinians are going thru is sad but irrelevant. 400+ kids dead? It's their fault for trying to possess the land God gave to the Jews.

As to USA absolute support, I asked a savvy friend a few years ago. He said Eisenhower refused to give Israel what they wanted, they vowed "never again" and set up a powerful lobby machine to make sure they will get whatever they want. (I'd ask him for more details but he unkindly dropped dead two years ago. I hate when friends do that!)

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Byron
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# 15532

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quote:
Originally posted by Gildas:
The thing is that it makes a great deal of sense from a realpolitik point of view for the US to support Israel. It is a stable democracy and, therefore, a reliable ally, it has a massive vested interest in doing down groups that the US tends to regard as undesirable (Moscow backed one party states prior to the end of the Cold War, Radical Islamists subsequently). And, let's be brutally frank, if things did get unpleasant would you rather have the IDF on your side or the other lot. The Israelis may be a bit naughty when it comes to collateral damage but they can, at least, mix it up when it comes to a proper scrap. The Israelis know this, of course.

So very much this.

As for the U.N., realpolitik's its alpha and omega. Thanks to the snazzy logo and rhetoric about universal brotherhood, far too many people treat it like the Federation in Star Trek.

I don't blame the U.N. for its embrace of realpolitik, not at all. The League of Nations showed the futility of any intergovernmental organization that allows idealism to eat into its membership rolls.

What it does mean is that anything the U.N. says should be treated with all due skepticism. This is a body that first declared Zionism racist, and then, erm, not racist, solely on the basis of geopolitics.

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Dave W.
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# 8765

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quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
As to USA absolute support, I asked a savvy friend a few years ago. He said Eisenhower refused to give Israel what they wanted, they vowed "never again" and set up a powerful lobby machine to make sure they will get whatever they want. (I'd ask him for more details but he unkindly dropped dead two years ago. I hate when friends do that!)

He was probably referring to the Suez Crisis of 1956.
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Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
# 182

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Loopy Christian groups clearly affect the far right of American politics. What I still don't understand is why they have any influence on what passes for left wing thought (or Presidents) in the States.

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

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Jay-Emm
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# 11411

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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
He was probably referring to the Suez Crisis of 1956.

That's an interesting thought.
In terms of wars I think my history has come from pro-Israel narratives, where the Suez isn't listed (and any because... chain stops after non-Israeli misdeeds)
And of course as British, would be warery about any motivation to shift motivations for that onto others.

But a history that included that (especially compounded by an expected anti-Israel bias anyway), would I guess be a totally different narrative?

[code]

[ 08. August 2014, 21:13: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24

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There is apparently a Kurdish joke which I think is apposite to this mammoth 15 page thread. The curse of the Kurds, says the joke, is that their enemies are not Jews.

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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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You think 15 pages is a massive thread? Hardly. Especially not for something that's been going on longer than many of us have been alive.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Anglican_Brat
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# 12349

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quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Loopy Christian groups clearly affect the far right of American politics. What I still don't understand is why they have any influence on what passes for left wing thought (or Presidents) in the States.

The Jewish vote is a substantial voting block within the Democratic Party. Many Jews are "Progressive in all things except Palestine", meaning that they support the moderate-to-liberal ideology of the Democratic Party but strongly support Israel's policy vis-a-vis the Palestinians.

[ 09. August 2014, 03:20: Message edited by: Anglican_Brat ]

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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.

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Belle Ringer
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# 13379

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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
As to USA absolute support, I asked a savvy friend a few years ago. He said Eisenhower refused to give Israel what they wanted, they vowed "never again" and set up a powerful lobby machine to make sure they will get whatever they want. (I'd ask him for more details but he unkindly dropped dead two years ago. I hate when friends do that!)

He was probably referring to the Suez Crisis of 1956.
Yes. What I'd like to ask is his theory just how did the Jewish leaders go about making sure the USA never again fails to give whatever they want. What does their political strength come from that even in these extremely polarized days where anything one party wants is automatically opposed by the other, we suddenly see unanimous votes about backing Israel in whatever that state is doing.
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Martin60
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# 368

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Hollywood.

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Love wins

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ChastMastr
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# 716

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I would have thought Putin's Russia would make a good Gog, but the American Religious Right thinks Putin is a Manly Man, so maybe not.

That's because the American Religious Right is Magog.

quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Hollywood.

... [Confused] ...

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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

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Clint Boggis
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# 633

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Mind control? Blackmail?
.

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Barnabas62
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# 9110

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Martin PC not

I like puzzles and normally get your word-games (or get close to them), but "Hollywood" was beyond me. Care to explain (for me, ChastMastr, and probably quite a few others).

As a matter of Ship's rules, clever obscurity is not a virtue; wilful incomprehensibility brings you to the attention of Admin. As you have been told before. From this Host's perspective, "Hollywood" crosses Purg Guideline 3 (it's hard to know whether you are sticking to the point) and Purg Guideline 5 (whether deliberate or not, it certainly isn't courteous).

So do have a care, please, and remember your Shipmates.

Barnabas62
Purgatory Host

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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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My cautious guess would be that to Martin, Hollywood = Gog. But I could be wrong.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047

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My less cautious and rather less charitable view is that Martin is referencing the tired old canard of Hollywood Jews controlling the media.
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Martin60
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# 368

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Sorry Barnabas62, I only just noticed this.

Belle Ringer mentioned lobbyism. The smartest people in America work in Hollywood. Smarter than the political class at least. A classic example is the '97 film The Peacemaker which was made to short circuit through to the politicians in the presence of the cinema going electorate, as to the danger of post-Soviet nuclear material going AWOL. Charlie Wilson's War (2007) is another justifier of liberal intervention even and BECAUSE OF the debacle of Iraq. These are relatively recent, whereas among the most influential films (and TV) of the '50s in particular were westerns, paradoxically aimed at civilizing the American male from boyhood: tough but pluralistically fair.

Violence can easily be redemptive. Is MANDATORY for good guys. John Wayne brought down Ceaușescu.

In to the '60s: 1960: Exodus, 1966: Cast A Giant Shadow, '68 The Green Berets. Foreign policy propaganda all of them and more.

Israel's domestic political leadership could have had very little to do with this if anything (and yeah I've asked Muslim friends how Mossad can be so incredibly powerful as to orchestrate 9 11) and the weight of the US Israel lobby is but a fraction of US self-interest geopolitical policy. (And I have dined with Mossad and they ARE very scary buggers indeed).

So even pro-Israel movies would have had far far more Foggy Bottom than Israel lobby weight. Israel is the 'beneficiary' of US foreign relations for as long as it is in America's theocapitalist self-interest. As soon as Muslims start creating liberal democracies, as soon as Palestine starts to emulate Ghandi and MLK and Mandela (and Gorbachev and Yeltsin), Israel is doomed, lobby or no.

But there's no chance of that this century.

There are far more Evangelicals than Jews in America and the Christian Zionist religious right is no more a driver of US foreign policy than the Israel lobby.

If you want to influence Capitol Hill, make a movie.

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Love wins

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moron
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# 206

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You may have never heard of Peter Himmelman, but others have:

http://www.frontpagemag.com/2014/dgreenfield/bob-dylans-son-in-law-records-hamas-war-sequel-to-dylans-neighborhood-bully/

quote:
It's time to take the gloves off, time to see this through
Personally, I'm all for maximum restraint. [Votive]
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