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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Vote on Scottish Independence
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Uriel
Shipmate
# 2248
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Posted
North East Quine - how do Scots in favour of independence feel about having to pay the fees for English students at their universities? This seems like a potentially large bill resulting from independence, and would take a large chunk out of any hypothetically increased prosperity. Is it something that those considering Yes have in their minds, or is it a hidden cost that many are not factoring in?
Posts: 687 | From: Somerset, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
To be honest, Uriel, the aspect that interests me most is entrance requirement inflation. With a huge influx of English students, Scottish Universities would end up asking for very high entrance requirements, which could squeeze average Scots kids out of a place. My son wouldn't have got a Uni place if the entrance requirements had been higher. That worries me.
Scotland currently punches above her weight, University wise, and it could be a boost if we were cherry picking the best students from both Scotland and England.
On the other hand, we wouldn't want a situation where we were spending a lot of money providing a University education for English students, only for them to return there after graduation.
I'm not an economist, and I've no idea how the figures would work out, but personally, I'd let the English students study for free, but make some provision that they have to remain here for two years post-graduation?
Half of my son's university class are non Scots - Scandanavian, German, Greek. Most of my husband's students aren't Scottish either. In my area (Scottish history) there are quite a few Canadians! I'm all for diversity!
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Also, am I right in thinking that some English Universities are concerned about losing students to a fee-free Scottish system? That it might result in some English universities lowering entrance requirements for some courses?
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
I'm not an economist, and I've no idea how the figures would work out, but personally, I'd let the English students study for free, but make some provision that they have to remain here for two years post-graduation?
Which would break the law on free movement of people within the EU.
You can't have little bits here and little bits there that appeal to you. You either have the whole EU law or none of it (by staying out).
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
To be honest, Uriel, the aspect that interests me most is entrance requirement inflation. With a huge influx of English students, Scottish Universities would end up asking for very high entrance requirements, which could squeeze average Scots kids out of a place. My son wouldn't have got a Uni place if the entrance requirements had been higher. That worries me.
On the other hand, a lot of foreign students may be less interested in studying in Scotland, if they won't have any advantage in getting a job in one of the large English cities as a result of whatever visa rules come into play.
Apologies if it's been covered in this thread already, but how will visas work for non-EU students and workers? I'm wondering if an Asian/African/American who gets a job in Scotland will be "stuck" there.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
IME, which is limited, most foreign students are sponsored to come here, get their degree and return to their home country.
In Aberdeen, Shell sponsors most of the Nigerian students; they're already on a career pathway when they come here.
This is a win-win; Scottish Universities charge non-EU students full fees, so it's in their interests to encourage companies to sponsor students to come here for their degrees.
I'm not aware of foreign students coming to Scotland and paying full fees as a route to a job in England, but, as I say, my knowledge is limited to personal experience. I don't have facts and figures.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The way the system currently works in Scotland is that EU students pay fees according to the standard of their home nation.
Alan, you need to come back to this point. I don't think it's true but given you're in the University system you may be able to defend it. You may be right about high fees in English Universities compared to the rest of Europe but that's irrelevant. If you have rules about equal access across the EU you can't discriminate.
I'm pretty sure that there are not specific EU regulations or legislation regarding charging of tuition fees. So, it's a question of secondary application of more general laws, the most commonly cited are laws against discrimination based on nationality - within the EU you can't have one law for the French and another for the Germans. Although there are various ways of allowing this in practice - the most common is discrimination in favour of home nationals on the basis of a period of residency - thus a nation could pass a law restrict access to a particular benefit to anyone who has been resident within that country for 5 years, this will clearly include all citizens of that country but exclude most other EU nationals. And, there are bases for allowing discriminatory practice on the basis of public interest - which could be security linked (eg: no foreign nationals allowed to work on military sites), or economic (some countries prioritise home students for strategically important university courses, medical courses being the most common).
Now, if an Independent Scotland passed a law that was simply "we'll charge English students tuition fees" then that will fall foul of EU discrimination laws, because it treats English students differently from French or German students, and unless a valid public interest case could be made then that law could not be enforced. If the law was "EU students will be charged tuition fees in line with fees charged at universities in their own country" then that will (probably) not fall foul of anti discrimination laws because all students are treated equally.
It is the second case that seems to be the proposal by the Scottish Government. At first glance it seems to be OK. Though, it will probably end up being settled by case law and precedent - ie: and English student charged fees will have to take the Scottish government to European Courts, and the Courts will decide.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
On the other hand, a lot of foreign students may be less interested in studying in Scotland, if they won't have any advantage in getting a job in one of the large English cities as a result of whatever visa rules come into play.
Apologies if it's been covered in this thread already, but how will visas work for non-EU students and workers? I'm wondering if an Asian/African/American who gets a job in Scotland will be "stuck" there.
As far as I'm aware, non-EU students enter the UK (or A.N.Other EU country) on a student visa. When they finish their studies they need to apply for a different visa to remain. That could, of course, be another student visa if they wish to continue studies on another course. If it was to work then they would need to have a specific job offer prior to applying. The majority of students, of course, finish their studies and return to work in their home country.
Anyone who has been (legally) in a country for a set minimum time (I'm not sure if it's 5 or 7 years) then they are entitled to apply for citizenship, which if granted will given them rights to work anywhere in the EU.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
Many things will stay the same, and a Londoner will still be able to visit his granny in Glasgow. But where it will lead all the micro nations of the British Isles in terms of world trade and future prosperity for any of us is anyone's guess and it fills me with fear!
Fear? Fear of what? I don't understand this. What, like you're going to run out of food or something because you can't afford it because there's no UK anymore?
I can't speak for PaulTH*, of course, especially with regard to his particular points made here. And 'fear' might be too strong a word for what some Northern Irish people might feel about a 'yes' vote in Scotland. But the re-drawing of political and cultural identities for an already rather insecure and not very powerful population - divided as it is anyway - is surely rather obviously not going to be a comfortable or welcome experience?
For many of the Northern Irish - as Scots-Irish descendents with a still very real connection to and tradition of language, politics and culture in Scots-Irishness - their strongest alliance, in terms of national identity, is perhaps with the Scots. It is where, arguably, the seat of mainland Britishness resides for the Ulsterman, apart from the presence of the Queen herself - who is a British queen first and foremost, not merely an English monarch.
Losing that alliance will maybe seem to some Northern Irish to be like losing a very important and sympathetic member of the family. And 'home' may seem a lot less like 'home' without her.
I don't suppose the English feel the same way about the Scots as the Northern Irish do? So I accept it is probably difficult for some folks on the English side of the question to imagine how the implications of the referendum might strike non-English British Unionists.
One thing I can imagine, is that national identities, on whichever side of the line they settle, will be very starkly drawn should there be a 'yes' vote in Scotland. An Ulsterman without his Unionist brother in Scotland to make him feel at home on the mainland is likely to become a very, very Loyal Unionist indeed! (More bloody flags on the lamposts, I suppose.)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Personally, I have no particular wish either way for a yes or no verdict. As I say, with the possibility of making history coming up, a 'no' vote might actually be a bit of a let-down!
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
I'm not aware of foreign students coming to Scotland and paying full fees as a route to a job in England, but, as I say, my knowledge is limited to personal experience. I don't have facts and figures.
I know a few Canadians, Americans, South Africans who were at Edinburgh/St Andrews/Heriot Watt who now live and work in London. Their fields of work are all pretty London-centric (corporate finance, fashion, media), and at the time we were students there was a one year post-study work visa and a highly skilled migrant program that allowed those who came from abroad to do BAs or MAs to stay and pursue work anywhere in the UK. So had they been in an independent Scotland they wouldn't have been able to come to London for work.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
It depends to a certain extent as to whether or not Scotland is fast tracked into EU membership. If it is waved through then, I think Scottish Universities will be appealing. If the Spanish insist that the Scots join the back of the queue in order to whatever the Spanish is for "pour encourager les autres", then not so much.
On the plus side whilst the Scots cool their heels outside the EU waiting for the likes of Serbia and so forth they will be able to charge English whatever they want.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
As far as I'm aware, non-EU students enter the UK (or A.N.Other EU country) on a student visa. When they finish their studies they need to apply for a different visa to remain. That could, of course, be another student visa if they wish to continue studies on another course. If it was to work then they would need to have a specific job offer prior to applying. The majority of students, of course, finish their studies and return to work in their home country.
For reference, I'm an American who came to the UK as a student, stayed on a work visa, and now have indefinite leave to remain. We don't all go back.
For those who stay, they usually get recruited by UK firms who apply for work visas for them. A lot of these jobs in some industries are in London. Will those firms recruit from Scottish universities if Scotland is independent? They will probably focus on recruiting Scottish students into their Scottish offices, if they have them. Do international students want to pay high fees for access to a smaller job market in an independent Scotland, than they have now as part of the UK?
It will certainly make a sizable number hesitate or even change their preferred university in the first few years until it's clear what the impact will be.
[ 09. September 2014, 09:59: Message edited by: seekingsister ]
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Gildas: whatever the Spanish is for "pour encourager les autres"
Para alentar a los demás.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Posted by Anselmina:
quote:
For many of the Northern Irish - as Scots-Irish descendents with a still very real connection to and tradition of language, politics and culture in Scots-Irishness - their strongest alliance, in terms of national identity, is perhaps with the Scots. It is where, arguably, the seat of mainland Britishness resides for the Ulsterman, apart from the presence of the Queen herself - who is a British queen first and foremost, not merely an English monarch.
I think it is true that there is a perceived connection, but 'perceived' is the precise term here, as is the 'perceived' connection with Britain as a whole, which is more aligned to the BNP and UKIP than with what Britain and Scotland actually is today. Part of the problem is that Northern Ireland has often been ignored. When the recent flag protests were ongoing, David Cameron appeared to have veered too close to a cat that ate his tongue. Even more recently the first minister uttered disgusting racism publicly that would have resulted in instant dismissal anywhere else in the UK. They have been allowed to play political games like Enoch Powell is still alive in Britain and represents mainline views and opinion. In the event of a 'yes' vote (even in the face of a 'no' vote) Northern Ireland has to wake up to the fact that the Britain it espouses no longer bears any relation to what Britain is today, which to be honest, I think can only be a good thing. If a 'yes' vote goes through, suddenly a lot of Ulster Scot's makey upey language signs (that really have only been erected to intimidate certain locals - in much the same way Irish signs were erected among a non-Irish speaking community) will rapidly disappear, which will be enough to indicate to anyone with half a brain that there was no original interest in a made up language like Ulster Scots and that the whole thing was a ridiculous political game. This, and the disappearance of other similar things in this regard, can only be good.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
The thing that struck me yesterday, when the Unionist parties announced that they were going to shovel new powers north of the border in the event of a 'No' vote was this:
Eighteen months ago, Cameron deliberately ruled out a 3rd option - Devo Max - on the ballot paper, preferring a straight Independence / Status Quo choice.
As of yesterday, the choice is Independence / Devo Max.
Where do the people who wanted the Status Quo maintained put their marks? Are these folk essentially disenfranchised? If so, how many of them will stay at home rather than voting 'No'?
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
Is there not an understanding that this is Devo Max but only if the powers that will be bother to give it afterwards, so if you don't want independence or Devo Max, then just vote No...nudge nudge wink wink?
And for the Yes side, wouldn't the easiest response be, "What! You trust that lot?"
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
They're disenfranchised. But the majority of Scots (one poll said 71%) wanted DevoMax originally, and Cameron knew that when he took DevoMax out of the equation.
Cameron and co are just playing politics here. If they'd taken this seriously, Scotland would be voting en masse for DevoMax next week, and there would have been little enthusiasm for full independence.
I think the current talk of DevoMax in the event of a No vote is shutting the stable door after a horse which galloped out of sight some time ago.
[ 09. September 2014, 11:25: Message edited by: North East Quine ]
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
The thing that struck me yesterday, when the Unionist parties announced that they were going to shovel new powers north of the border in the event of a 'No' vote was this:
Eighteen months ago, Cameron deliberately ruled out a 3rd option - Devo Max - on the ballot paper, preferring a straight Independence / Status Quo choice.
As of yesterday, the choice is Independence / Devo Max.
Where do the people who wanted the Status Quo maintained put their marks? Are these folk essentially disenfranchised? If so, how many of them will stay at home rather than voting 'No'?
Does anyone really think "No" will be translated to "DevoMax"? No will mean no, not DevoMax, not even DevoJustALittleBitToKeepThemHappy. It'll be jam tomorrow at the very best.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
I'm not aware of foreign students coming to Scotland and paying full fees as a route to a job in England, but, as I say, my knowledge is limited to personal experience. I don't have facts and figures.
I know a few Canadians, Americans, South Africans who were at Edinburgh/St Andrews/Heriot Watt who now live and work in London. Their fields of work are all pretty London-centric (corporate finance, fashion, media), and at the time we were students there was a one year post-study work visa and a highly skilled migrant program that allowed those who came from abroad to do BAs or MAs to stay and pursue work anywhere in the UK. So had they been in an independent Scotland they wouldn't have been able to come to London for work.
An independent Scotland might not see all the activity in those industries sucked into that Black Hole we call London. It's one of the reasons that if Scotland votes for independence it's a shame we can't redraw the border somewhere south of Chesterfield.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
I'm not aware of foreign students coming to Scotland and paying full fees as a route to a job in England, but, as I say, my knowledge is limited to personal experience. I don't have facts and figures.
I know a few Canadians, Americans, South Africans who were at Edinburgh/St Andrews/Heriot Watt who now live and work in London. Their fields of work are all pretty London-centric (corporate finance, fashion, media), and at the time we were students there was a one year post-study work visa and a highly skilled migrant program that allowed those who came from abroad to do BAs or MAs to stay and pursue work anywhere in the UK. So had they been in an independent Scotland they wouldn't have been able to come to London for work.
At present the UK policy is such that they'd be lucky to get a student visa, let alone a post-study work visa. So, post independence the people you know might not have very much choice, there simply won't be as many visas available to take up a job in London. Being more sensible about such things, in an Independent Scotland they'd be welcome to contribute their skills to the common good. Edinburgh, or other Scottish location, can become a thriving cosmopolitan financial and cultural centre while London is starved of the international talent by immigration policies fuelled by fear of UKIP.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
An independent Scotland might not see all the activity in those industries sucked into that Black Hole we call London. It's one of the reasons that if Scotland votes for independence it's a shame we can't redraw the border somewhere south of Chesterfield.
If we accept that London is some kind of horrible black hole for a moment, why would Scottish independence stop activity being sucked into it? Borders would be open so people would be free to move to London if they so wished, and if Scots continue to use the pound there will presumably still be a great deal of economic interdependence.
France hasn't been ruled from London for a very long time but that hasn't stopped Parisian bankers fleeing away from President Hollande's socialism to the City.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Indeed, a vote for independence may very well result in businesses based in Scotland relocating to England, which will probably mean...er...London. It could easily cut both ways.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
An independent Scotland might not see all the activity in those industries sucked into that Black Hole we call London. It's one of the reasons that if Scotland votes for independence it's a shame we can't redraw the border somewhere south of Chesterfield.
If we accept that London is some kind of horrible black hole for a moment, why would Scottish independence stop activity being sucked into it? Borders would be open so people would be free to move to London if they so wished, and if Scots continue to use the pound there will presumably still be a great deal of economic interdependence.
France hasn't been ruled from London for a very long time but that hasn't stopped Parisian bankers fleeing away from President Hollande's socialism to the City.
An independent Scotland would need its own financial centre, for starters, even if it's using the pound.
At the moment people don't so much move to London "if they so wish", except for a few super-rich financial types; they move there because that's the only place some industries exist in the UK. An independent Scotland is surely in a better position to have its own home grown versions of these industries. Hopefully it'll be able to nip any of the ridiculous runaway house price inflation that London is suffering from in the bud.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Indeed, a vote for independence may very well result in businesses based in Scotland relocating to England, which will probably mean...er...London. It could easily cut both ways.
The fuckers do that anyway, sucking the life out of most of England, never mind Scotland; that's why I refer to that London as a black hole. Where's the HQ of the Halifax for example? It's not in the West Riding - there's a clue.
I'm personally for anything that might reverse London-centricism.
[ 09. September 2014, 12:10: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Being more sensible about such things, in an Independent Scotland they'd be welcome to contribute their skills to the common good. Edinburgh, or other Scottish location, can become a thriving cosmopolitan financial and cultural centre while London is starved of the international talent by immigration policies fuelled by fear of UKIP.
England population: 53 million
Scotland population: 5 million
Scotland can compete with England only through very capital (as in financial) friendly policies. Singapore of Britain or something like that.
Global media, finance, corporates will never be more interested in Scotland than England just based on the numbers.
I thought Scotland wanted to become a small Scandi-lite nation in which case "cosmopolitan" and "attracting international talent" are not likely to be priorities or even realistic goals.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
posted by Orfeo quote:
I genuinely find it hard to understand what's supposed to have been "learnt" from Darien, beyond 'best not to sink too much money into a speculative colony in Panama'.
Well, how about the useful lesson that putting all your eggs into one speculative basket can be catastrophic?
The figures quoted by the YES campaign for future income from north sea oil and gas are projections only, and they rely heavily on outside companies, many based a long way from the rest of the UK, being prepared to invest substantial resources into a country the founders of which are avowedly high tax-and-spend merchants.
Mr Salmond Ms Sturgeon propose policies on health and social care that, if carried out, are likely to bring the economy of an independent Scotland to its knees. Many of their costings are based on having available a greatly increased per capita sum than at present for such items and ignore that the per capita sum received from Westminster at the moment is already way above that for the rest of the UK: where is the money going to come from? All it will need is for oil companies to decide that the tax demanded by an independent Scotland either too high and/or too unpredictable and they'll go elsewhere.
quote:
What else is supposed to have been learned that is relevant to the 21st century? I mean, look what happens to countries now that get into financial trouble. They have IMF plans and what have you, but they don't get taken over by a larger neighbour. No-one suggested that Greece or Cyprus ought to become a part of Germany.
There are many people in Greece and Cyprus who wish they could become part of Germany! Since 1951 the German economy has been well-run, disciplined and able to sustain such shocks as absorbing a region that increased its land area by more than 30% with an infrastructure either untouched since 1945 or so badly built that it was crumbling to dust, and with little modern manufacturing capability.
The effects of economic meltdown in Greece and Cyprus will continue to be devastating for decades. Industrial output in Greece has continued to decrease, there is widespread corruption, social policies, particularly in relation to state pensions and benefits, are still largely unreformed, and the tax system remains chaotic, haphazard and corrupt.
Property values in southern Cyprus have sunk by between 50 and 75% - yes, you are reading that correctly - and the prospect of any return to pre 2008 values within the next 25 years is viewed by economists as non-existent.
Meanwhile, almost the only money flowing into Cyprus is so-called grey money from the former Eastern bloc and Russia - much helped by Cyprus having withdrawn from EU anti-money laundering rules; the result is that Cyprus now has levels of financial corruption that equal or even surpass mainland Greece.
Scotland could emulate this. The value of stocks in Scottish based companies fell by more than 3% yesterday: the decision to sell these stocks is not one that will have been based on pique or mis-placed romanticism, but a hard-headed economic decision based on what is known - from their own words - of the financial planning and stability (or lack) of the people who seem increasingly likely to be heading up the government of an indepdent Scotland.
The housing market in Scotland has also started to see an increase in 'foreigners' wishing to sell-up while the number of buyers is still falling.
But you don't have to look at the eastern end of the mediterranean to see what an independent Scotland ruled by Mr Salmond might look like: you only have to cast your eyes to Aberdeenshire.
The good faith and reliability of Mr Salmond is available for anyone to see, if they wish. The film A Dangerous Game adds to the evidence produced in the TV documentary You've been Trumped of Mr Salmond's collusion in the hounding and bullying of his own constituents by a foreign businessman whose record for unsavoury behaviour was well known long before he arrived in Scotland. How does Mr Salmond's rhetoric about being a proud Scot square with his ignoring the plight of a 91 year old woman forced to get her water from a stream for 4 years? How proud is he of the private 'security' staff who intimidate and bully local residents? What value the beauties of the Scotland he professes to love when he pushed through permission for the wholesale destruction of an internationally important SSSI and bullying out of existence a centuries old fishing tradition?
Most of the promised '6,000' jobs have failed to materialise and plans for a second golf course at Menie have been scrapped: Mr Salmond is strangely silent about this.
Mr Salmond is a rogue and a stranger to the truth. Scotland alone faces a bleak economic future in his hands and it is unrealistic and unfair to expect the rest of the UK to stand idly by while it happens and then pick up the tab to bail them out when it all ends in tears.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
Well said L'organist.
Your post highlights why we will need a strong border in the event of a Yes vote. We get enough illegal economic immigrants trying to get into England via Calais without having them try to get in from an economically failed Scotland as well.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
An independent Scotland would need its own financial centre, for starters, even if it's using the pound...An independent Scotland is surely in a better position to have its own home grown versions of these industries.
But she already does, doesn't she?
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
At the moment people don't so much move to London "if they so wish", except for a few super-rich financial types; they move there because that's the only place some industries exist in the UK.
I'm sure I'm wasn't alone in moving to London because it's a great place to live (exhorbitant rents and house prices aside).
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
An independent Scotland would need its own financial centre, for starters, even if it's using the pound...An independent Scotland is surely in a better position to have its own home grown versions of these industries.
But she already does, doesn't she?
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
At the moment people don't so much move to London "if they so wish", except for a few super-rich financial types; they move there because that's the only place some industries exist in the UK.
I'm sure I'm wasn't alone in moving to London because it's a great place to live (exhorbitant rents and house prices aside).
In what way is it "great"? Every time I've visited it I've been glad to get away; noise, crowds, prices - the only good things I've ever found there are the NHM and the London Aquarium. I've known several people have to live there and move out when they got the chance.
[ 09. September 2014, 13:11: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
In what way is it "great"?
It is, I think, the greatest city in the world. But if you hate the place so much I suspect no words on the internet will persuade you otherwise.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
In what way is it "great"?
It is, I think, the greatest city in the world. But if you hate the place so much I suspect no words on the internet will persuade you otherwise.
Actually, I genuinely don't understand what people see in the place. I need something more concrete than "greatest city in the world". In what way? Bow is it "great" to live in a place miles and miles from any pleasant countyside where a normal house costs half a million? That really is a serious question.
[ 09. September 2014, 13:19: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Actually, I genuinely don't understand what people see in the place. I need something more concrete than "greatest city in the world". In what way? Bow is it "great" to live in a place miles and miles from any pleasant countyside where a normal house costs half a million? That really is a serious question.
There's a huge amount of culture available - you can see a wide variety of live music, dance, theater any day of the week. You can try nearly every major cuisine (and a great number of minor ones) at restaurants in the city. Your friends and colleagues are from all over the world. There are amazing career opportunities. People who influence the world in business, politics, academia and the arts come through here regularly to give talks and presentations.
London is in a league with New York, Paris, Tokyo, Hong Kong - major global cities that attract the world's best and brightest.
It's OK not to like cities but as cities go London is one of the best if you also take the amount of green space (I'm from outside NYC, London is an oasis in comparison), work/life balance (in Tokyo they leave the office at 10 PM as standard), and accessibility to outsiders (Parisians are not the most welcoming bunch).
Edinburgh is lovely - honestly I think it's a fantastic place - but it will never be London, not in a million years. It will be more like Oslo, or Seattle. That's not a bad thing but people need to have realistic expectations.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Lucia
Looking for light
# 15201
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Posted
I had always assumed that the option of 'Devo Max' on the ballot paper was ruled out because of the danger of splitting the No vote.
If there had been three questions on the ballot paper and the result had been:
No change 30%
Devo Max 30%
Independence 40%
would independance have been deemed to have won despite being the wish of less than half of the population? If this was the case I can understand why that option was vetoed.
Would this have been the case? Is that why the nationalists wanted the three questions so as to split the no vote? Or am I missing something here?
I realise in asking this question that in the UK we frequently end up with a majority government that has been voted for by less than half the people! But somehow a vote for something as hugely changing long term and difficult to reverse as independence would seem a different matter! One where there needs to be a really clear line between yes and no.
Posts: 1075 | From: Nigh golden stone and spires | Registered: Oct 2009
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Ah. That'll be it then. I don't much enjoy theatre, live music etc,; I much prefer watching my own choice of material off t'internet or telly or listening to CDs of stuff I know I like. It's hard enough for me being several hours from the Lake District; being unable to even get out to the Peak at will would be torture. Restaurants can only be afforded once every few months so a wide variety is of little value. From what you've said, I could enjoy London if I was young, single, wealthy, and a lot less introverted.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Actually, I genuinely don't understand what people see in the place. I need something more concrete than "greatest city in the world". In what way? Bow is it "great" to live in a place miles and miles from any pleasant countyside where a normal house costs half a million? That really is a serious question.
There's a huge amount of culture available - you can see a wide variety of live music, dance, theater any day of the week. You can try nearly every major cuisine (and a great number of minor ones) at restaurants in the city. Your friends and colleagues are from all over the world. There are amazing career opportunities. People who influence the world in business, politics, academia and the arts come through here regularly to give talks and presentations.
London is in a league with New York, Paris, Tokyo, Hong Kong - major global cities that attract the world's best and brightest.
It's OK not to like cities but as cities go London is one of the best if you also take the amount of green space (I'm from outside NYC, London is an oasis in comparison), work/life balance (in Tokyo they leave the office at 10 PM as standard), and accessibility to outsiders (Parisians are not the most welcoming bunch).
Edinburgh is lovely - honestly I think it's a fantastic place - but it will never be London, not in a million years. It will be more like Oslo, or Seattle. That's not a bad thing but people need to have realistic expectations.
I can't speak for anyone else, but the older I get the less appealing most of what you describe becomes to me. I'm quite happy to trade off the quantity of what you describe for living on the edge of the Peak District. We get the quality in that I can see shows, films etc. or eat a variety of cuisines etc. but I will happily give up a restaurant specialising in ethnic Borneo cuisine for a stroll along Stanedge Edge.
London is a nice place to visit but I wouldn't want to live there.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Oh shit I'm agreeing with Deano! I mean, I went down to That London a few years back to see We Will Rock You (sad old aging rocker as I am) but it cost a fortune and I can't imagine doing that very often even if I lived there. Indeed, given the housing costs, especially if I actually had to live there.
[ 09. September 2014, 13:43: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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An die Freude
Shipmate
# 14794
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
I thought Scotland wanted to become a small Scandi-lite nation in which case "cosmopolitan" and "attracting international talent" are not likely to be priorities or even realistic goals.
A quick look at the Global Competitiveness Report reveals that the Scandinavian nations are just as competitive as the UK, if not more. Scandinavian research is cutting edge in most high-tech industries and Scandinavian people on average speak the most foreign languages in the world. But pride and prejudice remains the essence of Englishness, no?
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"I too am not a bit tamed, I too am untranslatable."
Walt Whitman
Formerly JFH
Posts: 851 | From: Proud Socialist Monarchy of Sweden | Registered: May 2009
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
London is a nice place to visit but I wouldn't want to live there.
The question wasn't "Why is London the greatest place to live" but "Why is London the greatest city in the world."
If you don't enjoy cities then it doesn't matter if it's good or bad one. Many prefer the country and that is fine. But it's important not to confuse "I don't like cities" with "London is not a good city."
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
JFH: Scandinavian people on average speak the most foreign languages in the world.
Barring the Dutch ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I like London but I find it expensive, even for a visit.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
I don't like London either for all the reasons others have said here. But an independent Scotland won't reverse its pull; as I said, I think it will in all probability have the reverse effect for some Scotland-based businesses.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JFH:
A quick look at the Global Competitiveness Report reveals that the Scandinavian nations are just as competitive as the UK, if not more. Scandinavian research is cutting edge in most high-tech industries and Scandinavian people on average speak the most foreign languages in the world. But pride and prejudice remains the essence of Englishness, no?
1. I'm American! I happen to live in England but I am not nor ever will be English!
2. Scandinavians speak the most languages in the world because they have to. If you are a young Chinese person seeking opportunities to leave your country, are you going to study Norwegian? No of course not, you'd study English, French, Japanese, Spanish.
And Scandinavians have some fantastic companies and innovations but none of that is because they are small. According to the SNP if Scotland becomes independent, being small and socialist-oriented it will naturally become more like Finland. There are a few steps in between that no one seems interested in explaining.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
2. Scandinavians speak the most languages in the world because they have to.
Eh?
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
Seriously, Scotland is NOT going to become like Sweden or Finland!
When 24 hour drinking was introduced did Scotland suddenly become a bastion of European Cafe Culture, sipping a couple of glasses of wine whilst discussing the novels of A S Byatt?
No.
Nowhere in the UK did, so why are people imagining that an independent Scotland would suddenly shed the culture it has right now, in order to reach out for one that is alien to it?
An independent Scotland is going to be the same as it is now but without the English to blame!
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
2. Scandinavians speak the most languages in the world because they have to.
Eh?
quote:
Several factors correlate with English ability. Wealthy countries do better overall. But smaller wealthy countries do better still: the larger the number of speakers of a country's main language, the worse that country tends to be at English. This is one reason Scandinavians do so well: what use is Swedish outside Sweden? It may also explain why Spain was the worst performer in western Europe, and why Latin America was the worst-performing region: Spanish's role as an international language in a big region dampens incentives to learn English.
The Economist
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
A lot of these jobs in some industries are in London. Will those firms recruit from Scottish universities if Scotland is independent?
Alan's comment about visas is relevant in the big picture - a Scotland that welcomed smart foreigners might well look more attractive than an England that excluded them in some kind of misdirected kneejerk animus against Romanian labourers.
But as far as recruiters from big London firms go, I am certain that in the event of independence, they would still do the round of the big Scottish universities. The scheme that automatically allowed graduates of UK universities to work in the UK for a year or two no longer exists - non-EU graduates of UK universities need a work visa under the normal scheme, so (under current rules) there would be no reason related to visas to prefer graduates from English universities over Scottish ones, and if there's a pool of talented graduates sitting around, it would be a foolish employer who didn't attempt to catch a few prime fish.
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
The comparisons with Scandanavia are political and economic - similar positions on the political spectrum, similar sized populations etc. Cultural issues like drinking are not the forefront of the comparisons.
Besides, if you think Scandanavians don't drink you've obviously failed to actually know any. I've seen a group of Swedish scientists drink a Scottish pub dry (well, dry of single malt whisky) and get up bright and early to put in a full day of field work.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
An independent Scotland is going to be the same as it is now but without the English to blame!
Isn't that a bit optimisitc?
Some commentators are happy to blame Mrs Thatcher (who left office nearly 25 years ago) for the current state of affairs in Scotland. Why would they stop?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
2. Scandinavians speak the most languages in the world because they have to.
Eh?
quote:
Several factors correlate with English ability. Wealthy countries do better overall. But smaller wealthy countries do better still: the larger the number of speakers of a country's main language, the worse that country tends to be at English. This is one reason Scandinavians do so well: what use is Swedish outside Sweden? It may also explain why Spain was the worst performer in western Europe, and why Latin America was the worst-performing region: Spanish's role as an international language in a big region dampens incentives to learn English.
The Economist
Yeah, that explains why they learn English. It doesn't explain why they learn more languages than anyone else. Not the same thing. I know why they speak 2 languages rather than 1, but people in lots of countries speak English as a second language for the same reason.
[ 09. September 2014, 14:09: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Yeah, that explains why they learn English. It doesn't explain why they learn more languages than anyone else. Not the same thing.
Because they might want to work in any of the many other countries in the world where no one speaks Swedish.
I'm not sure if you are just interested in debating this point, or if you are suggesting that Scotland being independent means its residents will also become polyglots like their Scandinavian heroes?
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Yeah, that explains why they learn English. It doesn't explain why they learn more languages than anyone else. Not the same thing.
Because they might want to work in any of the many other countries in the world where no one speaks Swedish.
I'm not sure if you are just interested in debating this point, or if you are suggesting that Scotland being independent means its residents will also become polyglots like their Scandinavian heroes?
I just thought it an odd comment, and I still find it odd, because exactly the same rationale would apply to the Dutch, the Czechs, the Slovaks etc etc. There are plenty of other countries, and communities within countries, that have the same basic issue of a language that's only useful within their own relatively small population. That's clearly an incentive to learn at least one other language, with English being a common one. But out of all of those, Scandinavia still ends up speaking more languages. More than anyone else.
Anyway, it isn't relevant to Scotland given the vast majority of the population speak English as their first language anyway.
[ 09. September 2014, 14:16: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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