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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Vote on Scottish Independence
LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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Perhaps it's time to bring up this again?

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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quote:
Originally posted by Lucia:
I had always assumed that the option of 'Devo Max' on the ballot paper was ruled out because of the danger of splitting the No vote.
If there had been three questions on the ballot paper and the result had been:
No change 30%
Devo Max 30%
Independence 40%
would independance have been deemed to have won despite being the wish of less than half of the population? If this was the case I can understand why that option was vetoed.

Would this have been the case? Is that why the nationalists wanted the three questions so as to split the no vote? Or am I missing something here?

I realise in asking this question that in the UK we frequently end up with a majority government that has been voted for by less than half the people! But somehow a vote for something as hugely changing long term and difficult to reverse as independence would seem a different matter! One where there needs to be a really clear line between yes and no.

That's a fair point; the cynics are saying that Cameron wanted to bury Salmond, since he assumed that no would win handsomely. Well, that worked well.

I had to laugh at the sight of Gordon Brown proposing Home Rule, while Cameron skulks in London.

How amazing is it that the Prime Minister of the UK is a toxic presence in part of the kingdom?

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I had to laugh at the sight of Gordon Brown proposing Home Rule, while Cameron skulks in London.

The Prime Minister is heading to Scotland, along with Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg.
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North East Quine

Curious beastie
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quote:
Originally posted by Lucia:
I had always assumed that the option of 'Devo Max' on the ballot paper was ruled out because of the danger of splitting the No vote.
If there had been three questions on the ballot paper and the result had been:
No change 30%
Devo Max 30%
Independence 40%
would independance have been deemed to have won despite being the wish of less than half of the population? If this was the case I can understand why that option was vetoed.

Would this have been the case? Is that why the nationalists wanted the three questions so as to split the no vote? Or am I missing something here?

I realise in asking this question that in the UK we frequently end up with a majority government that has been voted for by less than half the people! But somehow a vote for something as hugely changing long term and difficult to reverse as independence would seem a different matter! One where there needs to be a really clear line between yes and no.

The nationalists wanted a Yes / No vote too. But they recognised that the people of Scotland didn't really want full independence. So they proposed a 3 question vote as being the most democratic option. I really don't think that in a three question referendum, there would have been a 40% Yes vote.

Cameron also recognised that the Scots didn't really want full independence. But he thought that if the middle ground was removed, voters would vote no. It was a calculated risk.

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I had to laugh at the sight of Gordon Brown proposing Home Rule, while Cameron skulks in London.

The Prime Minister is heading to Scotland, along with Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg.
Well, I look forward to the cheering crowds, and Cameron outlining his position on Home Rule. Maybe too little too late?

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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PaulTH*
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# 320

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quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientam:
Fear? Fear of what? I don't understand this. What, like you're going to run out of food or something because you can't afford it because there's no UK anymore?

This survey from last year predicts that the UK could surpass Germany as Europe's largest economy by 2030, especially if Germany remains tied to the plug hole known as the Eurozone. Factors which could adversely affect that outcome are Britain's leaving the EU and Scottish independence. Although all human societies are flawed, I believe that living in a prosperous country which is democratically governed is the best place to be in this world. The fact that the Scottish business community is so solidly against independence, and that the stock market and sterling value has reacted so negatively to the prospect of independence tells its own story. It's not about running out of food, but about losing credibility in a very competitive world.

quote:
Originally posted by L'Organist:
Mr Salmond is a rogue and a stranger to the truth. Scotland alone faces a bleak economic future in his hands and it is unrealistic and unfair to expect the rest of the UK to stand idly by while it happens and then pick up the tab to bail them out when it all ends in tears.

I entirely agree with L'Organist's assessment of Mr Salmond's competance and integrity to run the Scottish economy well.

quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
One thing I can imagine, is that national identities, on whichever side of the line they settle, will be very starkly drawn should there be a 'yes' vote in Scotland. An Ulsterman without his Unionist brother in Scotland to make him feel at home on the mainland is likely to become a very, very Loyal Unionist indeed!

If the Loyalists feel more insecure, they're likely to become more extreme, which could further polarise opinion in NI. That would be a pity, because according to this survey carried out in 2011, a majority of the province's Catholics now favour remaining in the UK. But I have wondered if the loss of Scotland from the equation would push NI more in the direction of a united Ireland. We all know that Dublin couldn't afford Northern Ireland. It's hardly Germany reuniting! They would probably expect England to pay the bills for many decades. Like I say, it's the uncertainty which does the damage. Let's hold our breath for ten days and we can reassess the situation in light of the vote.

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Yours in Christ
Paul

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quetzalcoatl
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I keep thinking that something is going on under the surface, apart from 'Scots are fed up with Tories'. For example, globalization is an acid which eats into mass identities, although there is a paradoxical result from that, which is both smaller countries splitting, and also joining in larger groups, such as the EU.

Thus, I'm not sure what 'Britain' or 'UK' signify today.

I agree with some comments on N. Ireland - they may well start feeling lost and abandoned, although I suppose a united Ireland still seems traumatic to many.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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North East Quine

Curious beastie
# 13049

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Originally posted by Paul TH:
quote:
The fact that the Scottish business community is so solidly against independence,
Is it?
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North East Quine

Curious beastie
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Some of the business communities support for remaining in the UK seems a little lukewarm.
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Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
The fact that the Scottish business community is so solidly against independence, and that the stock market and sterling value has reacted so negatively to the prospect of independence tells its own story. It's not about running out of food, but about losing credibility in a very competitive world.

Markets react to a lack of clarity. Things will calm down once the decision is made and the major questions, like currency and debt, are resolved one way or the other. Markets react to short term disruption, they're lousy predictors of long term performance.
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quetzalcoatl
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But remember folks, we have a royal and unionist foetus! We are saved from disunity!

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Adam Zero
Apprentice
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Arethosemyfeet, the major questions like currency and debt will not be resolved quickly.
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Eutychus
From the edge
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Adam Zero, congratulations on stepping out and posting!

Since you've been registered for a while, you're probably familiar with out Ten Commandments and board posting Guidelines; if not, please take time to check them out.

Eutychus
Purgatory Host

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Lucia

Looking for light
# 15201

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quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
The nationalists wanted a Yes / No vote too. But they recognised that the people of Scotland didn't really want full independence. So they proposed a 3 question vote as being the most democratic option. I really don't think that in a three question referendum, there would have been a 40% Yes vote.

But my question is still whether a less than 50% yes vote could have led to independence if the no vote was split? They couldn't have been sure how the split between no change and devo max would pan out before the vote. So framing it as a three way split could potentially have led to independence without a majority wanting it? What would have been the reaction in Scotland to being led into independence with less than 50% support? it's hard to see how that could have been viable.

I could understand the desire for a simple two way vote to avoid such a scenario but I can also see the frustration for those who would have choosen that option. But why not go for it now? It seems that devo max is now on the table anyway. I think it would be very hard for Westminster to back down on the promises being made so why risk independence just to snub the current incumbents who could well be gone come next election. And certainly will be gone within a generation. Independence is a decision for the next hundreds of years. My fear is that the decision is influenced by an understandable dislike of the current administration in the UK.

I feel the rest of the UK will be much poorer culturally for the loss of Scotland if it goes. Despite being English I love the variety of cultures within the UK, Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish alongside the English, who in many ways lack something of cultural distinctives . And I am depressed by the increasing insularity of those who think leaving the EU and erecting as many barriers to other cultures and peoples as possible is the way to go. Sadly I think Scotland leaving may make that scenario more likely in what remains of the UK.

I really hope Scotland stay. Despite the anti-English sentiment sometimes expressed by some Scots (yes, I'm afraid I find the 'anyone but England' joke winds me up a bit actually) I feel we will all lose something by separating. There are so many links in the UK which cross the country borders and even the different political views in Scotland give a counter balance to some of the pull in England. I fear for where things will go politically in rUK without that counterbalance.

Scotland, please stay with us!

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North East Quine

Curious beastie
# 13049

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Originally posted by Lucia:
quote:
But my question is still whether a less than 50% yes vote could have led to independence if the no vote was split? They couldn't have been sure how the split between no change and devo max would pan out before the vote. So framing it as a three way split could potentially have led to independence without a majority wanting it? What would have been the reaction in Scotland to being led into independence with less than 50% support? it's hard to see how that could have been viable.
It's possible that DevoMax might have split the No vote, but I haven't heard anyone seriously suggest that. We could still get Independence without the majority wanting it, as DevoMax voters like myself vote Yes.

quote:
But why not go for it now? It seems that devo max is now on the table anyway.
It's 11 days to go. Many people have already posted their postal votes. I don't think 11 days is long enough to answer every question about the current DevoMax offer. People are confused as to what exactly is on offer now. People would need some sort of published document, preferably with some sort of official Westminster sanction. There just isn't time left.

There are an estimated 500,000 Wee Blue books in circulation. The No campaign need to get 500,000 copies of a DevoMax book in circulation to match it.

I still think it's too close to call. But the No campaign is a shambles.

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deano
princess
# 12063

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quote:
Originally posted by Lucia:
I feel the rest of the UK will be much poorer culturally for the loss of Scotland if it goes.

And yet I am not convinced of this. I don't believe England will be disadvantaged in any way by Scotland leaving the Union.

We won't have to care what they think anymore (or even to pretend to care).

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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot

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fletcher christian

Mutinous Seadog
# 13919

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Posted by Lucia:
quote:

I feel the rest of the UK will be much poorer culturally for the loss of Scotland if it goes

Lol. Where is it going? Is there are plan to saw it off and set it adrift?

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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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I was just watching TV news, and the question of these late proposals of Home Rule, or devo-max, was put to a few people, and most of them sounded very scornful, and said they would not trust them as far as you could spit (loosely paraphrased). This is probably the result of bitter experience.

I think the no campaign is on the run, searching desperately for a way out. Well, Quebec pulled it out of the bag, so it's possible.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I keep thinking that something is going on under the surface, apart from 'Scots are fed up with Tories'. For example, globalization is an acid which eats into mass identities, although there is a paradoxical result from that, which is both smaller countries splitting, and also joining in larger groups, such as the EU.

Thus, I'm not sure what 'Britain' or 'UK' signify today.

I agree with some comments on N. Ireland - they may well start feeling lost and abandoned, although I suppose a united Ireland still seems traumatic to many.

I hope so, because it strikes me voting for independence because ypu don't like the tories is very short sighted (says she speaking as a labour supporter).

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Lucia

Looking for light
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quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Posted by Lucia:
quote:

I feel the rest of the UK will be much poorer culturally for the loss of Scotland if it goes

Lol. Where is it going? Is there are plan to saw it off and set it adrift?
It will become 'them' rather than 'us'. It will be the culture of a foreign country. I enjoy the culture of many foreign countries but I am always an outsider. I guess as part of the UK I didn't feel that I was such an outsider as we were also part of something together as the UK.
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quetzalcoatl
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It reminds me of having one's mind wonderfully concentrated by an impending execution - this is the position of the 3 stooges, Cameron, Miliband and Clegg.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I keep thinking that something is going on under the surface, apart from 'Scots are fed up with Tories'. For example, globalization is an acid which eats into mass identities, although there is a paradoxical result from that, which is both smaller countries splitting, and also joining in larger groups, such as the EU.

Thus, I'm not sure what 'Britain' or 'UK' signify today.

I agree with some comments on N. Ireland - they may well start feeling lost and abandoned, although I suppose a united Ireland still seems traumatic to many.

I hope so, because it strikes me voting for independence because ypu don't like the tories is very short sighted (says she speaking as a labour supporter).
I think it goes a bit deeper than that, doesn't it? There is a knot of feelings and ideas involved, including resentment at Tories and Labour, and just the simple old formula, found in Boston Harbour, of taxation and representation, plus, as I said, possibly a global movement of centrifugal forces.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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TonyK

Host Emeritus
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I was under the impression that Mr Cameron et. al. were supporting the 'Better Together' campaign.

Clearly a misapprehension - today the Scottish Saltire was flown over No 10 Downing Street!!

The last time I checked No 10 was the office and tied accommodation for the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom - if any flag is flown over that building it should be the Union flag.

Tomorrow, no doubt, we'll see the Saltire flying over the Houses of Parliament and Buckingham Palace.


[Mad] Yes, it really does annoy me!

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Yours aye ... TonyK

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quetzalcoatl
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I suspect it will be flying over many town halls as well, and no doubt, scout huts.

You have to remember, the no campaign are desperate, and they have left it very late.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by TonyK:
The last time I checked No 10 was the office and tied accommodation for the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom - if any flag is flown over that building it should be the Union flag.

There are two poles on Downing Street. When I walked by today it appeared that the Saltire was flying beside the Union Jack.
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Albertus
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# 13356

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This is all a bit rich, isn't it? I hope they'll vote No, partly because I don't like erecting divisions where they didn't previously exist and partly because I don't want that smug slippery chancer Salmond to get a win. But I'm blowed if I'll suddenly start telling the Scots that I'd be heartbroken if they left. My concern is that if they do get independence, the rest of us wouldn't get the full advantage of it- we'd still be stuck with Gove, Andrew Neil, Fraser Nelson, and the like.

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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
[W]e'd still be stuck with Gove, Andrew Neil, Fraser Nelson, and the like.

Or as I call them, the 'Dream Team'. [Biased]
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Albertus
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Thought you might [Smile] . AFAIK they are the ones that the old crack about haemorrhoids refers to.

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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

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Anglican't
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Go on, remind me.
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Albertus
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It's about a certain type of Scot (or I suppose Yorkshireman, or Gog [North Walian], or anyone else living to the north of you)- when they come down and go back up again, you can live with them. When they come down and stay down they're a pain in the arse.

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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

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TonyK

Host Emeritus
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Thanks Anglican't

Needless to say the BBC didn't report that fact.

I 'll turn it down to a simmer...

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Yours aye ... TonyK

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Anglican't
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# 15292

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Ah, hadn't heard that one, Albertus.

quote:
Originally posted by TonyK:
I 'll turn it down to a simmer...

Well, if you'd like to turn it up again, HM Treasury around the corner was flying the Saltire. The Treasury is, I think, part of the same network of buildings as DCMS and something else (though they have separate entrances). At the DCMS end, the Union flag was flying.
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North East Quine

Curious beastie
# 13049

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Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
My concern is that if they do get independence, the rest of us wouldn't get the full advantage of it- we'd still be stuck with Gove, Andrew Neil, Fraser Nelson, and the like.
We'd have oil, and whisky, and renewable energy, and tatties - it would seem greedy to take Gove et al as well. Please, keep them, with our best wishes. [Smile]
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quetzalcoatl
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Well, all of this is provoking my friends to talk about what Britishness is, and some seem to think that this has been considerably hollowed out. Deindustrialization, globalization, privatization - more and more companies, institutions, pieces of land and property, are owned by private companies, which may be multi-national, and not even British.

So in some ways Britain has been emptied out already.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
# 12699

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I was just watching TV news, and the question of these late proposals of Home Rule, or devo-max, was put to a few people, and most of them sounded very scornful, and said they would not trust them as far as you could spit (loosely paraphrased). This is probably the result of bitter experience.

I think the no campaign is on the run, searching desperately for a way out. Well, Quebec pulled it out of the bag, so it's possible.

There is a very good book that just came out, The Morning After: The 1995 Québec Referendum and the The Day that Almost Was. In it Chantal Hébert interviews all the key players from that campaign, including Jacques Parizeau, the Premier. Amazingly he didn't write a speech for the event that the "Yes" side lost, he expected to win. He didn't. He made the most tasteless speech possible that night, and it was clear he was "tired and emotional" (euphemism intentional).

Québec is a very divided place, it has Montréal (the most bohemian and left-leaning city in North America, San Francisco included) while the rest of the province is very conservative (in the sense of being traditional and frankly provincial). Montréal is what put the "No" side over the top.

But for all their bluster, Québec's sovereignty movement has never had the guts to ask a cut-and-dried clear question about independence. They themselves thought they would lose that contest. And the separatists, for all they have tried, have never been able to dissolve the bonds of affection between Québec and the rest of Canada. This country is like a family: we argue a lot, but deep down there is still love there.

But then again Québec has had most of what "Devo Max" is since 1867, every Canadian province does.

Unfortunately in Scotland I believed the love dissolved a long time ago. The English don't seem to care about Scotland like English Canada does about Québec. It's a question of emotion, and without that emotional foundation, there can be no political deal.

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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.

Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But remember folks, we have a royal and unionist foetus! We are saved from disunity!

It is, of course, perfectly possible to have the same royal family without being part of the same nation.

Posting from one of Elizabeth's other realms...

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Lucia:
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Posted by Lucia:
quote:

I feel the rest of the UK will be much poorer culturally for the loss of Scotland if it goes

Lol. Where is it going? Is there are plan to saw it off and set it adrift?
It will become 'them' rather than 'us'. It will be the culture of a foreign country. I enjoy the culture of many foreign countries but I am always an outsider. I guess as part of the UK I didn't feel that I was such an outsider as we were also part of something together as the UK.
I've been to a Scottish wedding in England. It already was the culture of a foreign country. There was a certain amout of oohing and ahing by the English guests at the exoticness of it all.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Albertus
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# 13356

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Exactly. I feel towards Scotland as I do towards the Republic of Ireland. They are people we have a certain amount in common with and I don't want to have to show a passport when I go there. But they are a different people with a different culture or cultures. Johnsonian posturing aside, I'm as well disposed to Scotland as I am to any other country (well, except perhaps for Canada, for which I have an ill-informed regard which verges on the idolatrous, but then Canada is basically Scotland-over-the-sea, isn't it?). But I have no cultural attachment to the place whatsoever.

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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7

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quote:
Originally posted by Lucia:
If it goes
It will become 'them' rather than 'us'. It will be the culture of a foreign country. I enjoy the culture of many foreign countries but I am always an outsider. I guess as part of the UK I didn't feel that I was such an outsider as we were also part of something together as the UK.

I think that this attitude isn't actually helpful. A lot of people in England's "vassals"* find this sort of talk deeply patronising, like English people who say this seem to think that they own somehow Scotland (and Wales, but that's by the by) and have a right to a culture that isn't strictly theirs. No matter how benevolently it is meant, it speaks of appropriation and actually can foster more resentment.

*I don't actually think Scotland and Wales are vassals anymore, but I think people here in Wales and up in Scotland often feel they are, and saying what amounts to "but if they're independent,we don't have a claim to their cultural capital anymore" is not going to win hearts.

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Jane R
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# 331

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Scotland never has been a vassal. Wales was conquered by the Norman kings of England: Scotland's King inherited the English crown from a distant cousin. That's why Scotland has a separate legal and educational system.

You might even say that England is a vassal of Scotland, since James VI and I was crowned King of Scotland several decades before he inherited the English crown; but England has always been treated as the senior partner in the relationship because it's bigger and richer.

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Jane R
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# 331

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And you don't have to go very far in England to find people who will think of you as an outsider. Just pop over to the next town or village and tell them where you're from.

Xenophobia* is alive and well and living on the other side of the parish boundary; who needs nation states?

*Fear and hatred of guests, as Flanders and Swann would say

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Lucia

Looking for light
# 15201

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Well it is certainly not meant with any sense of ownership on my part. And I'm not particularly trying to win hearts, just to express how I feel. As I said I have a sense of something shared as we are all part of this entity called the UK and I suppose I find it a bit sad when the other side says 'we don't want to share with you'. But I don't think the English have such a separate sense of identity as those from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and hence there is a cultural misunderstanding. It is hard for me as an English person to identify with the animosity that seems to emanate from some people from other countries of the UK when I don't feel such animosity in the other direction. I would hope that there could be mutual respect and support but I'm probably living in cloud cuckoo land. Of course all this has its roots in history which affects the present more than we realise at times.

It's odd. Having lived outside of the UK and Europe for a number of years now, in some ways I recognise more the bigger bonds we are part of. I feel more European and more British but also I see my own cultural background as English more clearly. I suppose its the contrast with all those around me. There are not many other Brits around!

[ 10. September 2014, 08:41: Message edited by: Lucia ]

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L'organist
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# 17338

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Some interesting claims about 'Scottish culture: precisely what do people mean by that?

If you're talking about tartan, bagpipes, highland games and the like, then what you're talking about is a mixture of Walter Scott's mediaeval obsessed romanticism and a prince of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha's taste in interior decor and family holidays - all played out to music by Mendelssohn.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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Someone in Australia has claimed we could actually have a slightly tricky consitutional problem if Scotland achieves independence... I don't think he's right, though.

Our Constitution refers to "the Queen" a lot, originally meaning Queen Victoria. Section 2 says that these provisions extend "to Her Majesty's heirs and successors in the sovereignty of the United Kingdom".

Now, the argument seems to be that you have to be monarch 'of the United Kingdom' for this to work, and that before 1707 personal union meant that a person was monarch 'of Scotland' and monarch 'of England'... and that if we go back to personal union that's what it would revert to.

I'm not so sure. First off, there will still be a country called 'United Kingdom', and that term dates from 1801 not 1707. The "expert" running this argument seems to ignore that 1707 created the Kingdom of Great Britain, not the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland (1801-1922) or the current United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

I can't see why you can't have a United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Technically you might have to make a United Kingdom of England (psst: Wales included) and Northern Ireland, but that would look ugly.

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que sais-je
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# 17185

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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Some interesting claims about 'Scottish culture: precisely what do people mean by that?

If you're talking about tartan, bagpipes, highland games and the like, then what you're talking about is a mixture of Walter Scott's mediaeval obsessed romanticism and a prince of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha's taste in interior decor and family holidays - all played out to music by Mendelssohn.

How old does something have to be before you call it culture? Is Buddhism 'more' of a culture than Christiantity because it's (about) 500 years older?

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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)

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Jane R
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# 331

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Scottish culture is whatever the people of Scotland say it is. Just as English culture includes (Indian) chicken tikka masala, (French) wine and haute couture and (German) Christmas trees.

[ 10. September 2014, 09:12: Message edited by: Jane R ]

Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Some interesting claims about 'Scottish culture: precisely what do people mean by that?

If you're talking about tartan, bagpipes, highland games and the like, then what you're talking about is a mixture of Walter Scott's mediaeval obsessed romanticism and a prince of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha's taste in interior decor and family holidays - all played out to music by Mendelssohn.

Indeed, but regardless of its origins it is associated specifically with Scotland, not with the United Kingdom.

The fact that South Africa isn't the original home of annoying plastic horns at football stadiums doesn't prevent the vuvuzela from being seen as part of that specific country's culture.

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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Something that would worry me about an independent Scotland is globalization. Will a Scottish government accept the overtures of an American firm which wants to build 50 golf courses along the coast? Or another one, which wants to build industrial parks on nature reserves?

I'm sure there are solutions to these things, but I don't think that Scotland would be free from such commercial pressures, any more than Essex.

Well, OK, I hear the solution winging my way - that is what government is for, but this time, it would be decided by Scots, for Scots. Fair enough.

I remember James Connolly issuing a warning to Irish Republicans - be careful that you don't end up being exploited by an Irish boss instead of an English one.

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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7

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quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Scotland never has been a vassal. Wales was conquered by the Norman kings of England: Scotland's King inherited the English crown from a distant cousin. That's why Scotland has a separate legal and educational system.

This is true, and I was unclear in my post for the sake of making a point, for which I apologise.

However in my experience, a lot of Scots people (and Welsh people) have expressed the idea to me that they feel like the English behave like Scotland is a vassal, to which the natural response from the English I know who engage on this is "no, we don't," which misses the point in a profound way.

Scottish culture is, as was said before, what the Scottish say it is. Scotland has an identity and culture of its own that goes far beyond cliches of Rabbie Burns and kilts and bagpipes and berets with pompoms on them, and that identity is not a thing the English have a claim on.

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Narcissism.

Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
North East Quine

Curious beastie
# 13049

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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Some interesting claims about 'Scottish culture: precisely what do people mean by that?

If you're talking about tartan, bagpipes, highland games and the like, then what you're talking about is a mixture of Walter Scott's mediaeval obsessed romanticism and a prince of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha's taste in interior decor and family holidays - all played out to music by Mendelssohn.

For me, living in area rich in Pictish carvings, my sense of culture goes back to approx C7th; my avatar is of a Pictish carving I pass on an almost daily basis. I worship in a parish church which has been the site of Christian worship for over a thousand years. Although my church building is post-1707, it incorporates elements of an earlier church, including some C16th carving. Walking into church, I pass the grave stones of people born before 1707. Yesterday I went for a walk to the ruins of a medieval castle which Mary Queen of Scots visited. Within a three mile radius of my home are places raided by Vikings, visited by Montrose, tramped past by Jacobites, ridden over by Robert the Bruce and Jamie IV.

The map of my immediate surroundings are a palimpset of cultural layers, place names from the ancient Celtic tongue, from Gaelic, from Scots, from English.

My sense of culture as something I live and breathe just by walking home from the bus stop is intense.


This is my country / The land that begat me / These windy spaces /Are surely my own

Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged



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