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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Vote on Scottish Independence
Matt Black

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Someone in Australia has claimed we could actually have a slightly tricky consitutional problem if Scotland achieves independence... I don't think he's right, though.

Our Constitution refers to "the Queen" a lot, originally meaning Queen Victoria. Section 2 says that these provisions extend "to Her Majesty's heirs and successors in the sovereignty of the United Kingdom".

Now, the argument seems to be that you have to be monarch 'of the United Kingdom' for this to work, and that before 1707 personal union meant that a person was monarch 'of Scotland' and monarch 'of England'... and that if we go back to personal union that's what it would revert to.

I'm not so sure. First off, there will still be a country called 'United Kingdom', and that term dates from 1801 not 1707. The "expert" running this argument seems to ignore that 1707 created the Kingdom of Great Britain, not the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland (1801-1922) or the current United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

I can't see why you can't have a United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Technically you might have to make a United Kingdom of England (psst: Wales included) and Northern Ireland, but that would look ugly.

I don't think anything changed re the UK-Oz constitutional relationship when the Republic of Ireland was formed so I don't see why Scotland leaving the UK would make any difference either.

And Wales is a Principality so it would be incorrect to include it in a "United Kingdom of..." title.

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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Anglican't
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Doesn't this cut both ways? Some chippy Scots complain about being an English vassal, for various reasons. Some chippy Englishmen complain about a disproportionate Scottish influence on British (and sometimes English) affairs.

While I'm sure there is a Scottish culture beyond Burns and Bagpipes, I just wish the organisers of the opening ceremony of Glasgow 2014 had recognised that.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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Can I add (and hi Wood! Didn't know you were still around) that if you think Scottish Culture is bagpipes and clan tartans, then it's probably best to just admit to yourself that you don't know what it is and you'll probably offend actual Scots by pretending that you do. It's a bit like equating Chinese culture with a 5, a 36 and a bag of prawn crackers, and the plinky-plonk music any Ealing comedy would use if a Chinese character came on.

Not that I know what it is any more than any other Sassenach, but it's a question for Scots, not us.

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Wood
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quote:
Originally posted by Lucia:
But I don't think the English have such a separate sense of identity as those from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and hence there is a cultural misunderstanding. It is hard for me as an English person to identify with the animosity that seems to emanate from some people from other countries of the UK when I don't feel such animosity in the other direction.

Well, like most people born into a nation like England, you didn't ask to be saddled with a history of injustice, colonisation and land theft (as many people in Wales and Scotland would see it), but England does have a cultural identity. You don't see it because England is the central signifier for the UK (there's a reason Americans so often get England and the UK confused). It's unconsciously considered the default. Like when an English person talks, for instance, assuming they don't talk with an accent, they're mistaken, because they are talking with an English accent. They don't have neutral baseline attitudes. They have English attitudes. They don't have a neutral identity; they have an English identity.

I'll grant that the reception individual English people get in parts of Scotland and Wales can be horribly unjust, because it's not their fault. English people didn't ask to be born English, and should not ever feel guilty for being born English, because that gets no one anywhere. But recognising that Englishness as something that is not neutral, not the default, and understanding why is a good start.

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Wood
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Can I add (and hi Wood! Didn't know you were still around) that if you think Scottish Culture is bagpipes and clan tartans, then it's probably best to just admit to yourself that you don't know what it is and you'll probably offend actual Scots by pretending that you do. It's a bit like equating Chinese culture with a 5, a 36 and a bag of prawn crackers, and the plinky-plonk music any Ealing comedy would use if a Chinese character came on.

Not that I know what it is any more than any other Sassenach, but it's a question for Scots, not us.

Exactly.

And hi Karl! Long time, no see, old chap.

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North East Quine

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Double posting - I'm voting Yes for the future, not for the past, but my sense of cultural identity goes back way before 1707, indeed before 1603 and therefore includes elements which were not, at the time, British.
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seekingsister
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quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Double posting - I'm voting Yes for the future, not for the past, but my sense of cultural identity goes back way before 1707, indeed before 1603 and therefore includes elements which were not, at the time, British.

This makes sense to me as a reason to vote Yes. It should be because philosophically the voter believes that Scotland should be independent.

Voting Yes because you believe Scotland will be better off economically, or for improved social welfare, or because you think you can keep the pound, is a bad idea because they are really policy matters that can change over time.

It would be a shame if the Yes vote won for the second set of reasons, and the none of those expectations were actually met. It would be one serious case of buyers' remorse.

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Wood
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As an inhabitant of Wales, I'm only really rooting for Scotland to say Yes as a kind of if-they-can-do-it-maybe-one-day vicarious thrill [Smile] while at the same time being terrified of the consequences for England and Wales if it happens vis a vis the near-certainty of eternal Tory rule... [Paranoid]

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Albertus
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And if that's what makes sense to you, good for you. If the Yes camp wins next week, I- like I suspect a lot of people in the rest of the UK, will probably just shrug my shoulders, say that I don't think it's a good idea but that's what you want, and wish you luck. This crazy idea from people like Cameron that the rest of us will somehow feel bereft and incomplete if Scotland goes has, IME, no empirical foundation whatsover. In fact if I were a wavering Scottish voter the whole hysteria that is coming from London this week might well push me to vote Yes.
BTW neq, are you sure we can't tempt you to take Govey back? He is from your part of Scotland, after all- no, got it, you're just so proud of him you'll sacrifice the sheer joy of having him around in order to show him off on as wide a stage as possible, no?

Oh, and Wood, the idea that we'd have permanent Tory rule without Scotland is a myth. look at the figures- there has been I think one election, 1964 IIRC, which Labour won which would have gone the other way without Scottish MPs. Labour can win without Scotland, albeit of course with smaller majorities.

[ 10. September 2014, 10:01: Message edited by: Albertus ]

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Barnabas62
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This flurry of party leader activity seems doomed to backfire.

I think what they are trying to say is something like;

"Don't, please don't, do this bloody silly thing, it really is a very expensive short term "bad" for you, which will really be bad for all of us in the UK, both short term and long term".

What will probably come across in Scotland is;

"Don't, please don't do this thing. It may be good for you but it's really bad for the rest of us."

Being a near Geordie (i.e. a Scotsman with my brains kicked out, 'cos that's what the borderers did to my ancestors), I think the evidence points much more to the truth of the first explanation than the second, but I don't think too many Scots will believe it now.

Like the French say, "Cherchez l'argent". But we're not much good in listening to truth from the French either. Distrust is poisonous to the truth of things.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Anglican't
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A question that's just occurred to me:

I think I'm right in saying that most believe that a lot of a newly-independent Scotland's wealth would come from oil and/or that oil money is required to fund the lavish public services that Yes Campaigners think will follow independence.

And yet I thought groups like the Scottish Greens were generally pro-independence? And I would've thought that left-leaning Yes campaigners (and I presume most do lean left) might be more concerned about things like Global Warming, etc.

How do people square that circle?

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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Oh I'm sure they'd like Govey back...
http://quickhitflix.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/the-Wicker-Man-6.jpg

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quetzalcoatl
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I expect some English people will shrug their shoulders, but I am encountering quite a lot of negativity about it. It ranges from fear to scorn, and all points between. Some of it is so abusive towards Scotland, that I would not repeat it here. I wonder if it's envy.

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North East Quine

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Albertus, not only is he from my neck of the woods, he attended the same primary school as my kids, before getting the scholarship which took him out of state education!

I think his last comment on the primary school was along the lines that its pupils were poor but honest, the offspring of salt-of-the-earth working class people.

[Roll Eyes]

Seriously, you can keep him.

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Oh, and Wood, the idea that we'd have permanent Tory rule without Scotland is a myth. look at the figures- there has been I think one election, 1964 IIRC, which Labour won which would have gone the other way without Scottish MPs. Labour can win without Scotland, albeit of course with smaller majorities.

If you take out the Scottish seats, we'd have a proper Tory government at the moment with a 20-seat majority.

The Conservatives won more votes than Labour in England in 2005, but I'm not sure that was reflected in the number of seats.

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
A question that's just occurred to me:

I think I'm right in saying that most believe that a lot of a newly-independent Scotland's wealth would come from oil and/or that oil money is required to fund the lavish public services that Yes Campaigners think will follow independence.

And yet I thought groups like the Scottish Greens were generally pro-independence? And I would've thought that left-leaning Yes campaigners (and I presume most do lean left) might be more concerned about things like Global Warming, etc.

How do people square that circle?

My impression is that the yes campaign is palpably downplaying the question of oil. I don't think they are saying, 'we will have all this wealth from oil, and we will be scattering largesse'. This strikes me as quite sensible.

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Lucia

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quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
England does have a cultural identity. You don't see it because England is the central signifier for the UK (there's a reason Americans so often get England and the UK confused). It's unconsciously considered the default. Like when an English person talks, for instance, assuming they don't talk with an accent, they're mistaken, because they are talking with an English accent. They don't have neutral baseline attitudes. They have English attitudes. They don't have a neutral identity; they have an English identity.


As I said in my previous post I think that when you are outside of something you become more aware of it. Living overseas I feel in many ways more aware of my Englishness. I know that I have an accent, many of our American friends think our kids' English accents are cute. I know that I am culturally different to the Americans, that our kids are culturally different to their peers in the French school and that we as foreigners are culturally significantly different to the locals who surround us here in North Africa.

But I agree that many in England can be very short sighted about this and I guess our own experiences of being 'the other' in a foreign country give us a bit more awareness of our own culture.

To be honest there are even cultural differences within England. I'm originally from the south of England but lived in Manchester and Liverpool for 4 years in early adulthood and certainly it felt significantly different to the rural south where I hail from!

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Wood
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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Oh, and Wood, the idea that we'd have permanent Tory rule without Scotland is a myth. look at the figures- there has been I think one election, 1964 IIRC, which Labour won which would have gone the other way without Scottish MPs. Labour can win without Scotland, albeit of course with smaller majorities.

I'm sort of rooting for UKIP to split the Tory vote.

Which is sort of a dangerous wish... [Paranoid]

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Narcissism.

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seekingsister
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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
This crazy idea from people like Cameron that the rest of us will somehow feel bereft and incomplete if Scotland goes has, IME, no empirical foundation whatsover. In fact if I were a wavering Scottish voter the whole hysteria that is coming from London this week might well push me to vote Yes.

I had the same thought, it both makes the UK look desperate and conveys the idea that the country will be dramatically damaged by Scotland's exit. In my opinion neither is true and I find the grovelling pathetic. If they want to go let them go.
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North East Quine

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
A question that's just occurred to me:

I think I'm right in saying that most believe that a lot of a newly-independent Scotland's wealth would come from oil and/or that oil money is required to fund the lavish public services that Yes Campaigners think will follow independence.

And yet I thought groups like the Scottish Greens were generally pro-independence? And I would've thought that left-leaning Yes campaigners (and I presume most do lean left) might be more concerned about things like Global Warming, etc.

How do people square that circle?

Scottish Greens are very pro-independence. They want to get rid of Trident, and they want to increase the use of renewable energy.

The media are suggesting this is all about Alex Salmond and the SNP, but the Greens have been campaigning strongly.

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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
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quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Scottish Greens are very pro-independence. They want to get rid of Trident, and they want to increase the use of renewable energy.

The media are suggesting this is all about Alex Salmond and the SNP, but the Greens have been campaigning strongly.

But sadly the media don't believe actual Greens exist. They might as well be Bigfoot, the way that the mainstream news organs treat them.

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Alan Cresswell

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And, not just the Greens. Also support from Scottish Socialists, some Labour supporters, CND (though mainly because of shipping Trident south), Scottish branches of many union. But, the media don't see them either.

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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by Lucia:
I think that when you are outside of something you become more aware of it. Living overseas I feel in many ways more aware of my Englishness.

Mainly, I'm aware of not speaking Japanese. So, anyone who speaks English is a treasure, someone I can can have a conversation with (and, that doesn't matter much if they're British, American, Japanese or Russian). Perhaps once I've learnt Japanese I can afford to be more picky about who I talk with and will feel more at home with the very small local British community (I sometimes think I might have just doubled it!).

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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North East Quine

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I think this is one of the big problems of the "No" campaign. They are focussing on Alex Salmond and the SNP. But for many voters, A.S. and the SNP are an irrelevance. There are dozens of groups - Green Yes, Women for Indy, Academics for Yes, Italians for Yes, Christians for Independence, Yes LGBT etc etc. who won't be swayed by anti-SNP rhetoric.

If we do become independent, then the SNP won't necessarily be the main political party after the first Holyrood election, and people know that. So focussing on the SNP leaves lots of pro-Yes groups with no opposition from the pro-Union side.

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
There are dozens of groups - Green Yes, Women for Indy, Academics for Yes, Italians for Yes, Christians for Independence, Yes LGBT etc etc. who won't be swayed by anti-SNP rhetoric.

If we add all these people together, do we get to anything like a significant group of people? What you've described there sounds to me like a smattering of small, left-wing groups.
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North East Quine

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I think Green Yes is a big group - if they're small, they're punching above their weight.

There are currently about 50 registered Yes groups, of which I think Green Yes is the largest.
Some of them are bound to be very small. But cumulatively they're significant.

Apparently Women for Indy have produced a "Quines for Yes" badge; I'd wear that! [Biased]

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LeRoc

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quote:
Alan Cresswell: Mainly, I'm aware of not speaking Japanese. So, anyone who speaks English is a treasure, someone I can can have a conversation with (and, that doesn't matter much if they're British, American, Japanese or Russian). Perhaps once I've learnt Japanese I can afford to be more picky about who I talk with and will feel more at home with the very small local British community (I sometimes think I might have just doubled it!).
Identity can be a strange thing. I've lived in Brazil for 13–14 years (with intervals) and I'm fluent in Portuguese. There are very few non-Brazilians in my social circle here (and I mostly speak Portuguese with them). Sometimes I almost forget that I'm a foreigner, sometimes it gets more to the foreground. It depends. I never had a strong Dutch identity, I feel more closely linked to my specific region within the Netherlands.

[ 10. September 2014, 10:53: Message edited by: LeRoc ]

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North East Quine

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
There are dozens of groups - Green Yes, Women for Indy, Academics for Yes, Italians for Yes, Christians for Independence, Yes LGBT etc etc. who won't be swayed by anti-SNP rhetoric.

If we add all these people together, do we get to anything like a significant group of people? What you've described there sounds to me like a smattering of small, left-wing groups.
If you look at a group such as National Collective there may only be 100 of them, but they include some big names - Alasdair Gray, The Proclaimers, Dougie McLean, Irvine Welsh, Liz Lochhead.

(This might also answer l'organist's point about Scottish culture being just tartan and bagpipes)

This is a group entirely separate from the SNP.

[ 10. September 2014, 11:09: Message edited by: North East Quine ]

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
If you look at a group such as National Collective there may only be 100 of them, but they include some big names - Alasdair Gray, The Proclaimers, Dougie McLean, Irvine Welsh, Liz Lochhead.

(This might also answer l'organist's point about Scottish culture being just tartan and bagpipes)

This is a group entirely separate from the SNP.

That's all well and good but it does remind me somewhat of the AV referendum campaign. The Yes to AV group had a lot of vocal supporters and a number of high-profile celeb backers from various fields. They all made a lot of noise but, when it came down to it, it transpired there weren't a lot of them (or not enough, anyway). I wonder whether the same might be true of the Yes campaign here (in spite of what the polls say)?
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Laurelin
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I'm English and hope that Scotland will vote to stay in the Union.

I was listening last night on Channel 4 to the reactions of some English people in a charming village somewhere. Some were sanguine: "good luck to the Scots if that's what they want." Others were sad and very apprehensive.

I always expected the 'Yes' vote to gain in confidence and numbers as the summer went by. I thought the margin would get pretty narrow, thanks to the less than impressive efforts of the 'Better Together' campaign from Westminster. I won't deny that I'm now feeling quite shell-shocked by the very real prospect of our nation breaking up.

This hard-hitting article about the economics spells out my deepest fears:

http://flipchartfairytales.wordpress.com/2014/09/09/are-we-really-about-to-split-up-our-country/

And an anonymous text in this morning's Metro also paints a worst-case scenario: ‘SNP policy was always modelled on Ireland – independent and in Europe using the euro. That turned sour, so the model became Norway. But Scotland can’t afford its own currency, so the SNP has assumed it will be able to use the pound. Salmond’s attempt at clarity is “an independent country, possibly in Europe, maybe able to use another country’s currency.”’

I'm no economist. It all might work out brilliantly for all concerned. But I have concerns.

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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien

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Wood
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As a brief aside, the point I raised about British fears that Scottish independence being the cause of the Torypocalypse received a rebuttal from George Monbiot this morning.

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Narcissism.

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Matt Black

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Mark Carney has made it clear that use of the pound in a currency union is incompatible with independence so I'm not sure where that leaves Salmond and Co.

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Eutychus
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AIUI, you can use the pound, or indeed Flanian Pobble Beads.

The problem is not whatever currency you care to deal in, the problem is whether you have any say in the monetary policy for the central bank that issues it.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7

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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Mark Carney has made it clear that use of the pound in a currency union is incompatible with independence so I'm not sure where that leaves Salmond and Co.

Floating their own currency or joining the Euro, I guess.

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Narcissism.

Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
North East Quine

Curious beastie
# 13049

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I don't know. I'm in a part of Scotland which is more pro-Yes than other parts. I can only reflect on what my perceptions are. I'm sure it won't be a landslide No; I think it could go either way. The over-70s are an "invisible" group and reckoned to be mostly No voters.

Westminster is clearly rattled, and the impression they are giving is that they haven't been paying attention.

ETA - replying to Anglican't.

[ 10. September 2014, 11:31: Message edited by: North East Quine ]

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
As a brief aside, the point I raised about British fears that Scottish independence being the cause of the Torypocalypse received a rebuttal from George Monbiot this morning.

I think Monbiot is on a 24 hour work schedule at the moment, he is churning stuff out. He has used that interesting argument, if Scotland had always been independent, would she want to be united with England? Err, doubtful.

For that matter, would many Irish people welcome a new union with England? Err, very doubtful.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Mark Carney has made it clear that use of the pound in a currency union is incompatible with independence so I'm not sure where that leaves Salmond and Co.

That makes me wonder how we have ever managed to accomodate Jersey and Guernsey, which use the pound. They have entirely different economies, commerial law and taxation schemes.

I believe that Carney, like others, is playing hardball for political rather than economic reasons.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Mark Carney has made it clear that use of the pound in a currency union is incompatible with independence so I'm not sure where that leaves Salmond and Co.

Of course they can use the pound. But then they are in a weird kind of independence, where monetary policy is decided in another state, and no doubt other financial decisions.

Maybe this is workable as an interim measure though, just as Ireland had many interim measures for a while, including the actual Free State.

It's messy of course, but then birth often is.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992

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I realise I'm coming to this very late, but I'm worried by the tone of debate among politicians over the past few days. In particular, Salmond seems to be responding to everything that comes from the No campaign with what are virtually jeers that can be summed up as "Nyah, nyah, nyah, we hate Westminster".

Is that really how he wants to conduct the debate? Does he really want to spin this referendum to the Scottish people as something no more serious than a chance to stick two fingers up at the English?

To my mind, there's a significant potential for political and economic disaster for Scotland if it becomes independent. They say they'll go straight into the EU, but will countries like Spain really want give such a green light to Catalonia and the Basques to go down the same route? They say they'll keep the pound, but any currency union requires two consenting parties, and the UK just won't do it. They say if they can't have the pound, they won't accept any debt - but this means that on day one of the new nation, their credit rating on the international markets will be "junk". They say they'll join Nato, but what's Nato going to think of a nation that has jeopardised Trident and hasn't even got a significant army to contribute to their share of the work?

Salmond and his gang are driving very fast towards an economical and political brick wall.

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Anglican't
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# 15292

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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Salmond and his gang are driving very fast towards an economical and political brick wall.

I'm starting to think that if Scotland does vote 'Yes' next week, the Scottish government will be begging to be re-admitted to the UK within a decade.
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Adam Zero
Apprentice
# 17693

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Carney may be saying what he has said for political reasons, but Paul Krugman has made the same point in rather stronger terms ("Spain without the sunshine")

(Eutychus, thank you for your welcome)

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Identity can be a strange thing ... Sometimes I almost forget that I'm a foreigner, sometimes it gets more to the foreground. It depends.

Yes, identity can be a strange thing.

In my life I've lived a bit under 20y near London, almost as long in Scotland, a long spell in NW England. And, now starting a decent length of time the other side of the world. The identity that I seem to be most at home with is "Christian", and feel at home in church even when the service is in Japanese.

I'll probably always be a foreigner here. First I look different. Also, even if I get to speak fluently with decades more to learn kanji the locals will always make me seem semi-literate.

But, I'm not sure national or cultural identity is really all that important, at least to me. I'm British, European, English, adopted Scots, Anglo-phone - and, I'm also not really any of those either.

Very strange thing this national identity thing.

As you can imagine my decision to vote Yes is not based on any feeling of Scottish identity. Likewise, appeals to a sense of "Britishness" didn't do anything to sway my decision the other way. I'm swayed more by considering democracy being stronger for being smaller, which has included an appreciation of how much better Holyrood has been than Westminster in representing the people who vote. I'm attracted to a part of the political spectrum strongly represented in Scotland but woefully scarce in the SE of England and hence in the British government dominated by that small corner of the island.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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It's my hope that the leaders of the Yes and No campaigns are being badly reported, because whichever way the vote goes, they appear to be a bitter and twisted bunch, lacking pinciple and composure.

Come the day after the referendum (which is International Talk Like a Pirate Day, IIRC) there will be such a lack of trust and goodwill that whether Scotland remains in the UK or goes it alone, the situation will be no more certain than it is now.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Salmond and his gang are driving very fast towards an economical and political brick wall.

I'm starting to think that if Scotland does vote 'Yes' next week, the Scottish government will be begging to be re-admitted to the UK within a decade.
Salmond and his gang? Gordon Bennett (was he a Scot?), who's using negative rhetoric now?

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Tubbs

Miss Congeniality
# 440

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quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Double posting - I'm voting Yes for the future, not for the past, but my sense of cultural identity goes back way before 1707, indeed before 1603 and therefore includes elements which were not, at the time, British.

This makes sense to me as a reason to vote Yes. It should be because philosophically the voter believes that Scotland should be independent.

Voting Yes because you believe Scotland will be better off economically, or for improved social welfare, or because you think you can keep the pound, is a bad idea because they are really policy matters that can change over time.

It would be a shame if the Yes vote won for the second set of reasons, and the none of those expectations were actually met. It would be one serious case of buyers' remorse.

Having had conversations with Scottish friends’ who are part of the London based Diaspora, they say it’s a combination of both …

A philosophical belief that Scotland should be independent that all goes a bit Braveheart and slightly irrational coupled with the belief that an independent Scotland will manage to pull off the trick of being a low taxation, highly socialised country with a booming economy. It’s the latter belief that may lead to disappointment if it doesn’t come to pass.

Being deeply cynical, it’s obvious that the SNP knows full well that it’s not going to be all marvellous. If Scotland wants to join the EU then they have to join the Euro – it’s one of the T&Cs. So no pound. Some companies will relocate – and have already said so. That will have an impact on the economy. Scotland already runs its own NHS so the “save the NHS” rhetoric is a bit dishonest.

Oh, and to everyone here who’s posted that Scotland has only been bailed out once, I give you … RBS, which had to be rescued by taxpayers at the cost of £45.2 billion. Located in Edinburgh.

If they’d offered a three way vote – yes, no, Devo Max – then Devo Max would have won it. Now it’s too little, too late. We may be just about to see the ugliest divorce fight in history.

Tubbs

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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am

Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

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Scotland runs its own NHS, but the money for that is still decided in Westminster, isn't it? Suppose that there are cuts to NHS income, made by a right-wing governemnt - why would Scotland be exempt from this?

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
Matt Black

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# 2210

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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Mark Carney has made it clear that use of the pound in a currency union is incompatible with independence so I'm not sure where that leaves Salmond and Co.

That makes me wonder how we have ever managed to accomodate Jersey and Guernsey, which use the pound. They have entirely different economies, commerial law and taxation schemes.


Yes, but their monetary policy is not autonomous and they do not claim to be fully independent as Salmond wants to do.

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Scotland runs its own NHS, but the money for that is still decided in Westminster, isn't it? Suppose that there are cuts to NHS income, made by a right-wing governemnt - why would Scotland be exempt from this?

AIUI the overall level of government funding is linked to overall funding in England, but money is not hypothecated within the general settlement. So the Westminster government could- and I think has- cut the overall funding settlement but within that settlement the Scottish Government can allocate the money as it wishes. Of course, the Scots do have powers to vary income tax rates, but have not used them. The Conservatives are I think keen to get the devolved administrations to take taxation powers, because that then pushes responsibility for taxation and overall spending levels in Scotland and Wales onto their own governments, with the potential for unpopularity, and the removal of the 'blame Westminster' excuse, that that implies. For AFAICS precisely that reason, Carwyn Jones, out First Minister, has said that he doesn't want Wales to have taxation powers, which I think is rather a shameful cop-out.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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The situation in the Channel Islands is quite different. They are a Crown Dependency. They have fully autonomous government, but the benefit of the Crown for defence and immigration, notably.

Channel Islanders are on the whole very attached to the Crown, not least because of having been occupied during WW2.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338

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posted by Alan Cresswell
quote:
I'm attracted to a part of the political spectrum strongly represented in Scotland but woefully scarce in the SE of England and hence in the British government dominated by that small corner of the island.
You mean Labour Party politics singularised by corruption, bullying and nepotism?

You surely mean a situation where a small constituent part of the whole is able, through over-representation, to skew the results of elections.

You mean a view that 'spend now, pay whenever' is a responsible and legitimate way to run an economy?

For some reason my mind's eye is seeing those ridiculous road signs such as 'Brent - a nuclear free zone'... [Ultra confused]

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012  |  IP: Logged



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