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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Vote on Scottish Independence
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Out of curiosity - what impression are shipmates furth of Scotland getting of the campaign? There is a lot of comment on Facebook / Twitter etc that the media simply aren't reporting Yes gatherings, preferring to focus on statements by business people and politicians.
For example, this was Inverness yesterday, and this was Glasgow - note the chanting of"We still love you even if you're No"
Is this being reported south of the border?
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Out of curiosity - what impression are shipmates furth of Scotland getting of the campaign? There is a lot of comment on Facebook / Twitter etc that the media simply aren't reporting Yes gatherings, preferring to focus on statements by business people and politicians.
For example, this was Inverness yesterday, and this was Glasgow - note the chanting of"We still love you even if you're No"
Is this being reported south of the border?
We're getting reports of flash mobs (and the fact that much of the campaigning is good natured and energetic) but we don't really know how how much significance should be attached to this? Probably not much as it's a group of true believers. My prediction is still for a fairly comfortable win for the UK.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
Yes, and you said so. You never however backed that up. Particularly with respect to Anselmina, whose summary of provincial grievances you never actually rebutted.
The historical summary from Anselmina was mixed up and vague in the details. It's for her to stand it up. But you can't just characterise the relationship amongst the constituent parts of the UK as one of perpetual domination and oppression particularly during the history of the Union. Two examples were offered by Orfeo and by someone else of the Highland Clearances and they both fall apart under examination. To take one example, the character of the relationship between England and Scotland as far as imperialism goes is one of partnership.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
I think it's going to be close. A lot of the No voters - the over 65s for example - aren't going to be visible on the streets, so I agree that this is not representative of the electorate as a whole and certainly isn't indicative of a Yes vote.
One massive positive is the number of Scots who have registered to vote. .There's an energy and enthusiasm for engaging with the political process which I don't think I've ever known before.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
Yes, and you said so. You never however backed that up. Particularly with respect to Anselmina, whose summary of provincial grievances you never actually rebutted.
The historical summary from Anselmina was mixed up and vague in the details. It's for her to stand it up. But you can't just characterise the relationship amongst the constituent parts of the UK as one of perpetual domination and oppression particularly during the history of the Union. Two examples were offered by Orfeo and by someone else of the Highland Clearances and they both fall apart under examination. To take one example, the character of the relationship between England and Scotland as far as imperialism goes is one of partnership.
I don't think you're being any less vague than she is. You seem to think that your argument is based on self evident patent facts. "That's bullshit." Great, tell us why. "Here's an example." OK, good, but it doesn't invalidate the other points made."Scotland and the UK have had a partnership vis imperialism." Ok, now back that up.
Part of the problem is that your posts seem to be engaging in a nation-scale instance of the #notallmen fallacy here. It hasn't always been that way, so it therefore isn't bad? It doesn't work like that.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
I don't think you're being any less vague than she is.
I don't need to be specific because I'm making no claims beyond 'it's a lot more complicated than that' (the 'shit happens' school of history). It is Anselmina who is making grandiose historical claims that the relationships amongst the constituent parts of the UK can all be characterised as one of oppression and domination by England. Yes British governments and aristocracies and elites and bureaucracies and establishments did bad things. 'Shit happens' but that shouldn't contribute to perceived grievances today.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
I don't think you're being any less vague than she is.
I don't need to be specific because I'm making no claims beyond 'it's a lot more complicated than that' (the 'shit happens' school of history). It is Anselmina who is making grandiose historical claims that the relationships amongst the constituent parts of the UK can all be characterised as one of oppression and domination by England. Yes British governments and aristocracies and elites and bureaucracies and establishments did bad things. 'Shit happens' but that shouldn't contribute to perceived grievances today.
No, it shouldn't but it does. And the statement "it's a lot more complicated", while it may be demonstrably true, doesn't address that.
[ 14. September 2014, 09:42: Message edited by: Wood ]
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
Also, "shit happens" isn't really ever an excuse for historical institutional wrongs. Certainly you never ever hear it from people who identify with the people group on the other side. It's pretty lazy and callous.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
Also, "shit happens" isn't really ever an excuse for historical institutional wrongs. Certainly you never ever hear it from people who identify with the people group on the other side. It's pretty lazy and callous.
I'm Scottish, Irish and English by ancestry. Who did what to whom? My English grandparents had much greater experience of poverty than my Scottish grandparents. Please make a case for the seriousness of these historical, institutional wrongs with regard to the English-Scottish relationship. I don't buy it that the Glaswegian Dock worker had it any worse than his counterpart in Liverpool, a miner in Durham, or the women and children who worked in the mills in Lancashire.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
Man, this is frustrating. It's not about having it worse. It's not a.competition. That isn't the point
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
Also, "shit happens" isn't really ever an excuse for historical institutional wrongs. Certainly you never ever hear it from people who identify with the people group on the other side. It's pretty lazy and callous.
I suppose the rise of Wilhelmine Germany and all that that entailed could be regarded as a 'historical institutional wrong'? I ask because one of the Kaiser's soldiers killed my great-grandfather. But, you know, shit happens.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
I don't see what's so extraordinary about noticing that England has generally been the most powerful kingdom in the British Isles. It successfully took over Wales. It conquered Ireland. It generally had a lot more success in attacking Scotland than Scotland did in attacking it.
I mean, the capital is London for goodness sake.
Also, the very existence of legislative assemblies in the other countries is an acknowledgement that England is the central power. You know why there isn't a legislative assembly for England? Because it's never been felt that strongly that it needed one. The contrast with genuinely federal nations composed of equal units is fairly obvious.
[ 14. September 2014, 10:15: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
Man, this is frustrating. It's not about having it worse. It's not a.competition. That isn't the point
Wood, what then are the particular historical grievances of the Scots? You seem to be suggesting that because there is the perception of a grievance then it is real. My view is that perceived grievances are in some cases unreal and in other cases cannot be explained in relation to national boundaries but are shared across boundaries.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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vw man
Shipmate
# 13951
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Posted
I don't take every word of knowledge or prophecy as from God,but I have read an interesting prophecy regarding Scotland.if you goggle prophecy's about Scotland and read the one on the Scotland ablaze web site .food for thought
Posts: 115 | From: Derbyshire | Registered: Jul 2008
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
You know why there isn't a legislative assembly for England? Because it's never been felt that strongly that it needed one. The contrast with genuinely federal nations composed of equal units is fairly obvious.
It's interesting how docile the English have been about this. Since devolution - and with the West Lothian question still unresolved - there have been times when sometimes unpopular legislation for England has been passed with Scottish votes. There was disquiet about this but it kind of fizzled out.
Regardless of the outcome of the vote next week, will the sleeping English lion awake?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
You know why there isn't a legislative assembly for England? Because it's never been felt that strongly that it needed one. The contrast with genuinely federal nations composed of equal units is fairly obvious.
It's interesting how docile the English have been about this. Since devolution - and with the West Lothian question still unresolved - there have been times when sometimes unpopular legislation for England has been passed with Scottish votes. There was disquiet about this but it kind of fizzled out.
Regardless of the outcome of the vote next week, will the sleeping English lion awake?
I'd say that if Scotland became independent, there'd probably be less need to resolve the West Lothian question because English constituencies would dominate Parliament even more than they do now.
(And the truth is, they already do - the only reason West Lothian can have a deciding vote is because the English MPs are rather evenly divided.)
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I don't see what's so extraordinary about noticing that England has generally been the most powerful kingdom in the British Isles. It successfully took over Wales. It conquered Ireland. It generally had a lot more success in attacking Scotland than Scotland did in attacking it.
Yes, but you don't necessarily get from noticing that to proving that the dominant historical narrative of the union is one of institutional wrongdoing by the English to the others. My view is that 'British' 'elites' screwed everybody including English people.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I don't see what's so extraordinary about noticing that England has generally been the most powerful kingdom in the British Isles. It successfully took over Wales. It conquered Ireland. It generally had a lot more success in attacking Scotland than Scotland did in attacking it.
Yes, but you don't necessarily get from noticing that to proving that the dominant historical narrative of the union is one of institutional wrongdoing by the English to the others. My view is that 'British' 'elites' screwed everybody including English people.
But the British elites are in fact overwhelmingly English, are they not?
You might focus on the fact that they are elites. I can well understand, though, that someone from Scotland, Wales or Ireland might focus on the fact that they are English.
PS This has the potential to dovetail rather nicely with the discussion of the No True Scotsman fallacy in another thread. Different methods of identifying the people who did you wrong as 'other'.
[ 14. September 2014, 10:31: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
Also, "shit happens" isn't really ever an excuse for historical institutional wrongs. Certainly you never ever hear it from people who identify with the people group on the other side. It's pretty lazy and callous.
I suppose the rise of Wilhelmine Germany and all that that entailed could be regarded as a 'historical institutional wrong'? I ask because one of the Kaiser's soldiers killed my great-grandfather. But, you know, shit happens.
Inasmuch as empire as a phenomenon is always an historical and institutional wrong, you mean? Yeah, your ancestor was wronged by two empires. Well done.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by vw man:
I don't take every word of knowledge or prophecy as from God,but I have read an interesting prophecy regarding Scotland.if you goggle prophecy's about Scotland and read the one on the Scotland ablaze web site .food for thought
Why should any of this take this at all seriously?
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
quote:
Originally posted by vw man:
I don't take every word of knowledge or prophecy as from God,but I have read an interesting prophecy regarding Scotland.if you goggle prophecy's about Scotland and read the one on the Scotland ablaze web site .food for thought
Why should any of this take this at all seriously?
You mean you actually looked it up instead of treating it with indifference?
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Fair point, deano. I nearly didn't look it up for the reason you've cited, but then I thought, 'Nah, let's have a look.'
It took me all of about 2 seconds to clock what I was dealing with - complete and utter twaddle.
I should have known better, of course, any website that regularly posts so-called prophetic words has to be suspect and you'll notice, of course, that these prophetic words are always couched in such vague generalities that no-one can ever 'call them' on it ...
They can always wiggle out of it by finding something that appears to 'fit'.
'Scotland and Wales will be thorns in the side of England ...' well, how the heck do you define that? They seem to be suggesting that Scotland and Wales will jolt England out of its spiritual complacency. Eh? Scotland and Wales are probably even more secularised than England is.
It's complete baloney and wishful thinking.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Just be grateful the referendum result hasn't been explicitly prophesied. One of Australia's more prominent right-wing Pentecostal groups did that one time, and got it wrong.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
But the British elites are in fact overwhelmingly English, are they not?
Mostly overwhelmingly English but not always. Some of our Monarchs and Prime Ministers have been Scottish. In terms of the relationship between England and Scotland in which the Union didn't come about as a result of conquest, there is a mutuality which is absent elsewhere in the British Isles. In many ways, Scotland flourished in the Union and Scottish people dominated the world scientifically and intellectually. Another country, I have lots of connections to - Canada - was opened up, explored and led by Scots.
I think, the grievances which Wood claims are real, are to be found in any country where power is concentrated unhealthily in the capital city. In the case of Scotland, devo max may work, but in regions like the South-west where there is no regional identity we need power devolved to much smaller local parish/district councils and authorities.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
Also, "shit happens" isn't really ever an excuse for historical institutional wrongs. Certainly you never ever hear it from people who identify with the people group on the other side. It's pretty lazy and callous.
I suppose the rise of Wilhelmine Germany and all that that entailed could be regarded as a 'historical institutional wrong'? I ask because one of the Kaiser's soldiers killed my great-grandfather. But, you know, shit happens.
Inasmuch as empire as a phenomenon is always an historical and institutional wrong, you mean?
Erm, no.
quote:
Yeah, your ancestor was wronged by two empires.
Well, not really, since guaranteeing Belgian independence wasn't really done with the aim of colouring the country red on maps, was it?
quote:
Well done.
Likewise.
[ 14. September 2014, 11:17: Message edited by: Anglican't ]
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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agingjb
Shipmate
# 16555
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Posted
"The secret folk of England,
of whom the poet wrote,
We have no voice, we have no rights,
we barely have the vote.
Our rulers built an empire,
they built it with our blood.
They trampled over half the earth
and treated us like mud.
Our rulers lost their empire
or threw it all away;
And now the other nations
are calling for their day.
We have no friends or allies,
our rulers still conspire;
But if we must defend ourselves
the world will end in fire."
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Refraction Villanelles
Posts: 464 | From: Southern England | Registered: Jul 2011
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
But the British elites are in fact overwhelmingly English, are they not?
Some of our ... Prime Ministers have been Scottish.
Names like Macmilllan, Home, Blair, Cameron.
Gordon Brown's name sounds English though...
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Out of curiosity - what impression are shipmates furth of Scotland getting of the campaign? There is a lot of comment on Facebook / Twitter etc that the media simply aren't reporting Yes gatherings, preferring to focus on statements by business people and politicians.
For example, this was Inverness yesterday, and this was Glasgow - note the chanting of"We still love you even if you're No"
Is this being reported south of the border?
Most of us south of the border take the newspapers with as big a pinch of salt as those north of it. Some stuff is appearing on the news but many have been discussing things with the various expat Scottish people they work with or looking on social media. All the expats I know would vote no if they could. Of them, their family members who do have a vote rang from rabid nationalists, inbetweeners to no voters.
I think it will be extremely close however it falls. Which means there will be endless arguments about whether the result fits the criteria set out in the agreement.
I hope things like the "Let's stay together" rally in London this week is also getting air time north of the border. What the no campaign haven't managed to get across is that a whole is always stronger than the sum of it's parts and that both sides will be poorer and have less opportunities without the other. That's even down to practical things like the ability to move between each other for work. People will need a work permit, won't be entitled to benefits etc.
Tubbs
[ 14. September 2014, 12:01: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Posted by Gamaliel:
quote:
'Scotland and Wales will be thorns in the side of England ...'
That's poor form; God casting his vote early and letting it be known publicly. Pft.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
But the British elites are in fact overwhelmingly English, are they not?
Mostly overwhelmingly English but not always. Some of our Monarchs and Prime Ministers have been Scottish. In terms of the relationship between England and Scotland in which the Union didn't come about as a result of conquest, there is a mutuality which is absent elsewhere in the British Isles.
I'm not sure why acquisition by bribery and corruption should engender a feeling of mutuality any more than conquest. The Act of Union resulted in riots and ultimately armed rebellion.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
Most of us south of the border take the newspapers with as big a pinch of salt as those north of it. Some stuff is appearing on the news but many have been discussing things with the various expat Scottish people they work with or looking on social media. All the expats I know would vote no if they could. Of them, their family members who do have a vote rang from rabid nationalists, inbetweeners to no voters.
I think it will be extremely close however it falls. Which means there will be endless arguments about whether the result fits the criteria set out in the agreement.
I hope things like the "Let's stay together" rally in London this week is also getting air time north of the border. What the no campaign haven't managed to get across is that a whole is always stronger than the sum of it's parts and that both sides will be poorer and have less opportunities without the other. That's even down to practical things like the ability to move between each other for work. People will need a work permit, won't be entitled to benefits etc.
Tubbs
Yes, this. Plus:
It will be a great shame to split up and destroy what others who waged war against us couldn't. It's far better for the people of Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and England to stand side by side for justice in society than to try to do so in isolated pockets.
I understand the reasons for the call for separation. I think that the debates have encouraged a positive interest in politics that was badly needed. But this is needed not only in Scotland, but in the whole of the UK.
I pray that we will not be divided.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
But the British elites are in fact overwhelmingly English, are they not?
Mostly overwhelmingly English but not always. Some of our Monarchs and Prime Ministers have been Scottish. In terms of the relationship between England and Scotland in which the Union didn't come about as a result of conquest, there is a mutuality which is absent elsewhere in the British Isles.
I'm not sure why acquisition by bribery and corruption should engender a feeling of mutuality any more than conquest. The Act of Union resulted in riots and ultimately armed rebellion.
If you mean the '15 and the '45, surely those were about the Glorious Revolution rather than the Act of Union. AIUI the aim was to replace the Hanoverians on the throne in London, not to spin Scotland off.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
Also, "shit happens" isn't really ever an excuse for historical institutional wrongs. Certainly you never ever hear it from people who identify with the people group on the other side. It's pretty lazy and callous.
I suppose the rise of Wilhelmine Germany and all that that entailed could be regarded as a 'historical institutional wrong'? I ask because one of the Kaiser's soldiers killed my great-grandfather. But, you know, shit happens.
Inasmuch as empire as a phenomenon is always an historical and institutional wrong, you mean?
Erm, no.
I think we're just going to have to register flat, complete disagreement on this one and move on.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
I think, the grievances which Wood claims are real, are to be found in any country where power is concentrated unhealthily in the capital city.
With this I agree a hundred per cent.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
There is one massive upside for England in the event of a Yes vote... it will kill off once and for all the possibility that Rangers and Celtic will be allowed into the English leagues!
That alone is worth the oil.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Is there any situation in which you believe putting non-relatives needs above your own, or your family's, needs or desires is justified deano ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Is there any situation in which you believe putting non-relatives needs above your own, or your family's, needs or desires is justified deano ?
Of course there are. Starving people need food more than I do. I need to lose weight.
But I don't see any situations involving Scottish people that would qualify. They can deal with whatever mess they leave themselves in. As long as me and mine are not affected then I will sleep soundly in my bed.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
There is one massive upside for England in the event of a Yes vote... it will kill off once and for all the possibility that Rangers and Celtic will be allowed into the English leagues!
Why are you against that? I always thought it might be a good idea - shake things up a bit and all that.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Is there any situation in which you believe putting non-relatives needs above your own, or your family's, needs or desires is justified deano ?
Of course there are. Starving people need food more than I do. I need to lose weight.
But I don't see any situations involving Scottish people that would qualify. They can deal with whatever mess they leave themselves in. As long as me and mine are not affected then I will sleep soundly in my bed.
Would starving Scottish people count ? Or starving Syrians ? Or starving Britains only, in any format the UK happens to be at the time ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
If the Scottish people starve then that is something that will need to be addressed at the time.
This focus on hypothetical situations is a neat way of sidestepping the real issues and enables some people to run screaming to the extremes.
Kind of like the "baby incubator" pacifists who measure out every weapon in terms of how many baby incubators could be bought instead.
This thread is about the Scottish vote for independence not about starving Syrians.
It seems to me that the position of Yes-voters is to make everything a matter of national pride. If the English say "We want you to stay", the nationalists are likely to say "well if you want us to stay we will leave because we won't give you the satisfaction of meeting your demands!" If we say "Go then", the nationalists will most likely say "We know when we are not wanted!".
There is no debate. It is entrenched in anti-English/anti-Scottish sentiment. It always has been.
Surely if the vote is one of national pride and sovereignty then economic arguments are irrelevant. The Scottish people should ignore all economic arguments and vote for the principle of national sovereignty. To reduce it to the level of "How much will it cost me" is not what a proud nation should base its future on.
But if it isn't about national pride and is merely one of economic benefits, then why vote away the UK? Surely it is too much of a risk to take? Surely it is better to remain in the UK and not risk damaging the existing economic situation?
Perhaps after Thursday, in the event of a No vote, the UK (excluding Scotland) ought to be given a vote to decide whether we want to kick Scotland out of the UK. After all, you have been given the chance to decide if you want to remain in union with us, surely it is only fair that we are given the chance to decide whether we want you to remain in union with us.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
But the British elites are in fact overwhelmingly English, are they not?
French and German, up to about 1914, when the House of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha decided that they sounded a bit too hunnish for the peasants.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
[qb] But the British elites are in fact overwhelmingly English, are they not?
Mostly overwhelmingly English but not always. Some of our Monarchs and Prime Ministers have been Scottish.
The Royal Family is more German and Scottish than English, I believe. The current Monarch traces her lineage to the Stuarts.
The last truly English monarch I believe, was Elizabeth I.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Welsh-English, really!
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
To be fair, starving Syrians are not a hypothetical construct.
I was just interested in how far the logic of your position (across many threads) extends.
As regards the Scots, if there was a rUK referendum after a No vote - which way would you vote deano ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
To be fair, starving Syrians are not a hypothetical construct.
I was just interested in how far the logic of your position (across many threads) extends.
As regards the Scots, if there was a rUK referendum after a No vote - which way would you vote deano ?
So you are trying to conflate my positions on the Scottish referendum and the anti-jihadist threads. Oh well, nice try.
I would probably vote to allow Scotland to remain in the union. Probably. A lot would depend on the reaction post a No vote. If it were to be heavily anti-English then I would have to think long and hard. But if the democratic will is for Scotland to remain in the union then I can't see myself going against that position.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
But the British elites are in fact overwhelmingly English, are they not?
French and German, up to about 1914, when the House of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha decided that they sounded a bit too hunnish for the peasants.
It's cute how some of you think that "elites" means the Royal Family and that they actually still run things.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
But the British elites are in fact overwhelmingly English, are they not?
Mostly overwhelmingly English but not always. Some of our Monarchs and Prime Ministers have been Scottish. In terms of the relationship between England and Scotland in which the Union didn't come about as a result of conquest, there is a mutuality which is absent elsewhere in the British Isles.
I'm not sure why acquisition by bribery and corruption should engender a feeling of mutuality any more than conquest. The Act of Union resulted in riots and ultimately armed rebellion.
If you mean the '15 and the '45, surely those were about the Glorious Revolution rather than the Act of Union. AIUI the aim was to replace the Hanoverians on the throne in London, not to spin Scotland off.
The two are not entirely separate issues.
With the death of the last heir to Queen Anne, the English Parliament passed the Act of Settlement (1701) passing the crown to Sophia of Hannover and her heirs upon Anne's death. The Scottish Parliament passed their own Act of Security (1704) reserving the throne to the Stuart Kings.
In 1705 the English Parliament passed the Alien Act, which would end trade and movement between England and Scotland unless the Scots repealed the Act of Security and an Act of Union passed. Meanwhile, Scottish trade with France (one of the largest export markets in Scotland) was severely disrupted by war between England and France, the collapse of the Darien scheme which had been actively undermined from London had left Scotland close to bankruptcy. The Alien Act would have totally destroyed the economy of Scotland, with particularly severe impacts on the landed gentry of the south of Scotland who dominated the Scottish Parliament.
With the aid of almost £400,000 to compensate the Darien investors and the release of £20,000 of withheld pension and salary for Scottish parliamentarians the Act of Union was passed in 1707. Greeted by riots on the streets of Edinburgh, with those members of the Scottish Parliament who had voted in favour being escorted out of the city under armed guard for their own safety. The Jacobite rebellions (the '15 probably more so than the '45) were a direct consequence of the anger of the people of Scotland over the bribery and blackmail that had forced the Act of Union through the Scottish Parliament. And, of course, the Act of Union effectively forced the Act of Settlement and the Hanoverian monarchy on Scotland - which was also a cause of the '15 and '45.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
But the British elites are in fact overwhelmingly English, are they not?
Mostly overwhelmingly English but not always. Some of our Monarchs and Prime Ministers have been Scottish. In terms of the relationship between England and Scotland in which the Union didn't come about as a result of conquest, there is a mutuality which is absent elsewhere in the British Isles.
I'm not sure why acquisition by bribery and corruption should engender a feeling of mutuality any more than conquest. The Act of Union resulted in riots and ultimately armed rebellion.
And, even if there hadn't been riots, and the Union had been by mutual agreement rather than conquest does that make independence wrong? One could debate whether or not other parts of the Empire had been acquired by conquest or not - in Canada, Australia, New Zealand the native peoples were displaced but most of the population in the 1940s would have considered themselves of British descent without a great deal of animosity towards the British government over past injustices that had resulted in them being part of the Empire. Was it truly wrong for Australia, New Zealand, India etc to be granted independence? And, if it was OK for those countries, why is it not OK for Scotland? Just because Scotland was part of the Empire for slightly longer, doesn't make it fundamentally different.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Have many people actually been arguing that Scottish independence would be wrong? Unwise and unneccessarily divise, perhaps, but wrong?
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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