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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Vote on Scottish Independence
Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Incidentally, good luck tomorrow to all Scots; be brave, keep calm, and vote yes!

Hmm. My good wishes are accompanied by "be brave, keep calm, and vote no!"

As are mine.

And I'd never, ever ever thought I'd say this: well done Gordon Brown!

Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009  |  IP: Logged
venbede
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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Talking about civil wars, would it be terribly inflammatory to point out that the so-called English civil war in the 17th century came about when we had a Scottish king?

Of course, the Scots were bound to be on the winning side seeing how the Covenanters were pro-parliament while Montrose and friends were for Charles.

I think the Coventanters were pro-monarchy, provided the monarch signed the Covenant. The Scots instituted (no such popish superstition as a coronation) Charles II following his father's exectution, which didn't please them at all.

Scots forgive my ignorance of Scottish history. I've tried to understand it, but all the popular books are quiet about the Commonwealth. Surely Cromwell wasn't Lord Protector of Scotland? Who was the Scottish head of state between 1649 and 1660?

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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
No, membership of the EU, and subsequent treaties, have not been enacted separately for Scotland - for the purposes of things affecting the whole of the UK laws are put onto the UK statute book only with no separate Acts for Scotland.

There are a lot of UK laws that have separate Acts for Scotland. One I'm familiar with is the Radioactive Substances Act, which is identical to the Act passed in Westminster with the exception that the geographical extent over which the Act applies is Scotland. You do appear to be correct that the relevant EU treaties were not written into UK legislation with separate Acts for Scotland. What would happen if first thing Monday morning after a Yes vote the Scottish Government drafted copies of the UK Acts changing the geographical extents to cover Scotland and got the Queen to sign them off next time she came to Balmoral?

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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doubtingthomas
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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Incidentally, good luck tomorrow to all Scots; be brave, keep calm, and vote yes!

Hmm. My good wishes are accompanied by "be brave, keep calm, and vote no!"
Be brave, be calm, and vote!

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'We are star-stuff. We are the Universe made manifest, trying to figure itself out'
Delenn (Babylon 5)

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Ad Orientem
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Incidentally, good luck tomorrow to all Scots; be brave, keep calm, and vote yes!

Aye! I hope so too. Contrary to popular belief I do have a rebellious, defiant, self-determinate side to me which in turn makes me favourable to a Scottish "yes".
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North East Quine

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quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
This is an issue which has incited 97% of those eligible to vote to register - that's 97%.

This is what politics should be like.

Yes, it's great!
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agingjb
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I'm sure civil wars occurred at many other times than with a release of territory from the domination of an empire.

My point, which as usual I failed to make, was how often independence, or the disintegration of a larger entity, did precede such wars.

My other point was that this not going to happen with the separation of England and Scotland. There are some fixed but partial antipathies which will, eventually, be resolved by some other process.

That civil war is not an option is good. But how will Scotland, a nation so evenly divided, reintegrate. And how will England, also divided in a rather different way, learn from that process.

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Refraction Villanelles

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Barnabas62
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Some speech by Gordon Brown. In line with memorable speeches by Bevan, Gaitskell, Kinnock. Passion and conviction in play. A real barnstormer.

Latest polls are suggesting about 48% Yes, about 52% No; i.e too close to call given normal allowance for sampling error.

Looks like a cliffhanger.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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IngoB

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I say vote "Yes" Scotland. Don't worry, you won't become Spain's stooge or Brussels' bitch. Remember, Germany is ever kind to its faithful EU vassals. Just keep the whisky and the oil flowing our way, and we will take good care of you. Birds of a feather, that's what we are, nothing like those nasty Brits with whom you have nothing in common... [Razz]

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

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Louise
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quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Talking about civil wars, would it be terribly inflammatory to point out that the so-called English civil war in the 17th century came about when we had a Scottish king?

Of course, the Scots were bound to be on the winning side seeing how the Covenanters were pro-parliament while Montrose and friends were for Charles.

I think the Coventanters were pro-monarchy, provided the monarch signed the Covenant. The Scots instituted (no such popish superstition as a coronation) Charles II following his father's exectution, which didn't please them at all.

Scots forgive my ignorance of Scottish history. I've tried to understand it, but all the popular books are quiet about the Commonwealth. Surely Cromwell wasn't Lord Protector of Scotland? Who was the Scottish head of state between 1649 and 1660?

/historical trivia

I am brain dead after a very very long day travelling but I think I can still shed some light on this

Charles II was crowned at Scone - there was no anointing - that was seen as the Popish bit.

From 1653 Cromwell was Lord Protector of England, Scotland and Ireland. After he died in 1658 it gets complicated in the last days before the Restoration - shortlived rule of Richard Cromwell and then various committees and generals, if I recall correctly. The Covenanter Archibald Johnston of Warriston went over to the Cromwellian regime and was involved in the last days of the protectorate - the later printed volumes of his diary give some idea of Scotland under the protectorate.

The crucial thing about the Cromwellian Union was that it showed that Scotland could be conquered and held - even up into the Highlands and Orkney. This was probably in the back of a lot of people's minds when the matter of union came up again in the 18th century - better to make a deal than be conquered and lose all rights.

/historical trivia off

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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.

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quetzalcoatl
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That was some speech by Gordon Brown. His usual mask had slipped, and there was some real passion and conviction. He might bring some of the Labour waverers back to the fold of no.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Autenrieth Road

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So why does Gordon Brown run with a usual mask? Why not operate with passion and conviction all the time?

</AR reveals herself to be hopelessly naive about politics>

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Truth

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Doublethink.
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Well he is blind in one eye as a result of a head injury as a teenager, and I suspect he has facial nerve damage.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I say vote "Yes" Scotland. Don't worry, you won't become Spain's stooge or Brussels' bitch. Remember, Germany is ever kind to its faithful EU vassals. Just keep the whisky and the oil flowing our way, and we will take good care of you. Birds of a feather, that's what we are, nothing like those nasty Brits with whom you have nothing in common... [Razz]

[Killing me] [Killing me]

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
But to wish for a small country as such is simply to wish for being somebody else's political toy. It's naive to believe that there will be some kind of fair consideration of every small nation on the international stage. Money talks, military talks, natural resources talk, population size talks. Fairness is the spin that gets put on the deal after all that talking has been heard...

Denmark, Finland, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, New Zealand, Singapore, Costa Rica: all have populations under 10 million, all doing fine, as far as I can tell from my position here in one of the world's superpowers.

And isn't there considerable feeling in Scotland that they're already somebody's political toy?

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
If it is decided that Scotland doesn't retain EU membership that creates a massive headache for the rest of the EU. Do companies in other EU nations currently employing Scottish workers need to sack them, or go through a lengthy and expensive process of seeking visas and work permits?

Does anyone have an idea of how many Scottish workers there actually are in the rest of the EU (barring the UK, of course)? It may not be as big a problem for them as you're suggesting.
Surprisingly it doesn't seem that easy to get the numbers. It's about 700,000 in the rest of the UK. So the total must be well over 1 million.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Og: Thread Killer
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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda in the South Bay:
...Likewise, the yes side doesn't seem to actually have any specific proposals rather than wishful thinking.

Wishful thinking is pretty much all that referendums provide when it comes to policy.


If push comes to shove, things will be on the table that are not now and things will be off the table that are being suggested now.

That's the nature of negotiating things like this.

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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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The Scottidh Government have presented a vision, a dream, something to aspire to. Call it wishful thinking if you wish. But, I think it's admirable to have a vision of where you are going. Without vision the people perish (paraphrase of something in some book or the other).
"You got to have a dream,
If you don't have a dream,
How you gonna have a dream come true?"
(which I always associate with Captain Sensible, though I know he pinched it from South Pacific)

Dreams and visions are powerful stuff. "I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed "

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
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If * 've got the timezones right, that will be polling stations just opening.

If the predictions for the very high turnout are correct, whatever the outcome it'll be a victory for democracy and a demonstration that people are interested in politics.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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kingsfold

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And whichever way the vote goes, pray that all will have the willingness to work together thereafter. There will be a lot of very disappointed people.
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alienfromzog

Ship's Alien
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Quick prediction:

No: 53%
Yes: 47%

[Turnout 89%]

AFZ [Biased]

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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]

An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Crap spouted by kingsfold:
And whichever way the vote goes, pray that all will have the willingness to work together thereafter. There will be a lot of very disappointed people.

Yes, it worries me that a small no majority will leave a lot of yes campaigners roiling and boiling, and Salmond will need to be very statesmanlike then, to calm people down.

* think autonomy is inevitable now, so they can see it as a victory really.

The * is not intentional, by the way.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Tubbs

Miss Congeniality
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quote:
Crap spouted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
No, membership of the EU, and subsequent treaties, have not been enacted separately for ****land - for the purposes of things affecting the whole of the UK laws are put onto the UK statute book only with no separate Acts for ****land.

There are a lot of UK laws that have separate Acts for ****land. One * 'm familiar with is the Radioactive Substances Act, which is identical to the Act passed in Westminster with the exception that the geographical extent over which the Act applies is ****land. You do appear to be correct that the relevant EU treaties were not written into UK legislation with separate Acts for ****land. What would happen if first thing Monday morning after a Yes vote the ****t*** Government drafted copies of the UK Acts changing the geographical extents to cover ****land and got the Queen to sign them off next time she came to Balmoral?
Where is the "holy crap, jaw drop" smilie when you need it?

Assuming that the Queen signs everything, that idea still assumes that all the other signatories to the treaties and the agreements would agree to proceeding on that basis. They might, but only if they think that this is in their national interests. They’ll want something for that.

The EU has repeatedly stated its position.

* can’t remember who on this thread suggested that ****land could “buy off” Spain’s objections to their EU membership by siding with them over Gibraltar, but … Really? Really? So much for “we’ll do things better”. More, we’ll do things the same, but with a ****t*** accent! [Roll Eyes]

NATO seems to be keeping quiet about letting ****land join. Given the US’ love of nukes, there could be an interesting discussion about Trident.

Tubbs

PS Keep calm and vote! Hopefully no, but if it is yes, then good luck! We're all going to need it.

[ 18. September 2014, 11:58: Message edited by: Tubbs ]

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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am

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quetzalcoatl
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Well, the ***ing ****s should just go and **** themselves; we should never have given up *****. * blame the ***** parents.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Tubbs

Miss Congeniality
# 440

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quote:
Crap spouted by Firen*e:
This is an issue *hich has incited 97% of those eligible to vote to register - that's [* ]97%[/* ].

This is *hat politics should be like.

Too right! * 've had more conversations about the state of the NHS; benefits and food banks; fair ta*tion v austerity; *ho gets to vote on *hat in Parliament etc in the last fe* days than * 've had in ages! Hopefully *e can keep that momentum up *hatever the outcome. Ne*t election could be a doo*y!

Tubbs

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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am

Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
itsarumdo
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* notice that the auto censor function is no* considering that Capital Eye is a s*ear *ord (OK - maybe that's getting a bit too egotistical), and s c o t is also becoming equivalent to a colloquial se*ual act. any chance that the **** asterisks can be ****** ******* removed?

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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron

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Spike

Mostly Harmless
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No

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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing

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itsarumdo
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* ******* **** ***** ****?

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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron

Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014  |  IP: Logged
L'organist
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# 17338

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Re ****land and the EU:

The Span*** PM, no doubt *ith the approval or at the behest of the EU Commission, has advised that simply deciding it ****es to join/ continue being a member (*hatever your vie*point) is not enough and *on't change the procedure.

He says the ****s should prepare themselves for a *ait of anything up to a decade before becoming EU members - and that assumes the EU *ant them. As he helpfully reminds Mr Salmond and friends, it took Spain - a large country - 8 years to get EU membership, even *ith a follo*ing *ind, a stated desire on the part of the EU's larger countries for it to be a member, and incredible EU pre-accession spending on some Span*** regions (notably some of the islands) to bring infrastructure up to something approaching an acceptable standard.

Vote NO or prepare to be in a declining back*ater.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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quote:

* ******* **** ***** ****?

Oh, for ***** sake, *hy not just ***** the *****, s*allo* your *****, and then take off your *****.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Tubbs

Miss Congeniality
# 440

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quote:
Crap spouted by L'organist:
Re ****land and the EU:

The Span*** PM, no doubt *ith the approval or at the behest of the EU Commission, has advised that simply deciding it ****es to join/ continue being a member (*hatever your vie*point) is not enough and *on't change the procedure.

He says the ****s should prepare themselves for a *ait of anything up to a decade before becoming EU members - and that assumes the EU *ant them. As he helpfully reminds Mr Salmond and friends, it took Spain - a large country - 8 years to get EU membership, even *ith a follo*ing *ind, a stated desire on the part of the EU's larger countries for it to be a member, and incredible EU pre-accession spending on some Span*** regions (notably some of the islands) to bring infrastructure up to something approaching an acceptable standard.

Vote NO or prepare to be in a declining back*ater.

It might not be that bad, Nor*ay has done okay. Hopefully ****land has put some thought into *hat *ill happen if EU membership takes longer than hoped and if the rUK says no to currency union and becoming ****land's outsourced central services provider.

Tubbs

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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am

Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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quote:
Crap spouted by Alan Cress*ell:

If the predictions for the very high turnout are correct, *hatever the outcome it'll be a victory for democracy and a demonstration that people are interested in politics.

Democracy? *hen 96% of the UK population don't get any say in something *hich *ill affect us all?

* ***'* th*** **** ***** any***** like dem******!

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Albertus
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# 13356

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quote:
Crap spouted by Alan Cress*ell:
The ****tidh Government have presented a vision, a dream, something to aspire to. Call it ****ful thinking if you ****. But, * think it's admirable to have a vision of *here you are going. *ithout vision the people per*** (paraphrase of something in some book or the other).
"You got to have a dream,
If you don't have a dream,
Ho* you gonna have a dream come true?"
(*hich * al*ays associate *ith Captain Sensible, though * kno* he pinched it from South Pacific)

Dreams and visions are po*erful stuff. "* have a dream that one day this nation *ill rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed "

Or as Bo*ie put it:

quote:

Did you ever have a dream or t*o
*here the hero is a guy named you
And the things he does are just too much
Does he fly like Mr. Superman, speak Chinese, French and Dutch?
And did you ever have a dream or t*o?

*hich * suppose is no more or less realistic than some of Mr Salmond's dreams.

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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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You would think that no country had ever become separate before - do any of them regret it? Maybe there are some, but * don't see thousands of Irlandais* people demanding to be let back into the UK.

*getting round the asterisk.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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chive

Ship's nude
# 208

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* 've found this a useful summary of the issues.

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'Edward was the kind of man who thought there was no such thing as a lesbian, just a woman who hadn't done one-to-one Bible study with him.' Catherine Fox, Love to the Lost

Posts: 3542 | From: the cupboard under the stairs | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
itsarumdo
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# 18174

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He's an impressive speaker - and with a somewhat greater air of credibility than ***** and ********* et al

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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron

Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014  |  IP: Logged
Callan
Shipmate
# 525

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Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:

quote:
There are a lot of UK laws that have separate Acts for ****land. One * 'm familiar with is the Radioactive Substances Act, which is identical to the Act passed in Westminster with the exception that the geographical extent over which the Act applies is ****land. You do appear to be correct that the relevant EU treaties were not written into UK legislation with separate Acts for ****land. What would happen if first thing Monday morning after a Yes vote the ****t*** Government drafted copies of the UK Acts changing the geographical extents to cover ****land and got the Queen to sign them off next time she came to Balmoral?
It may well be the case, as Bagehot opined, that Her Majesty is obliged to sign her own death warrant if it is presented to her after passing through the relevant parliamentary procedures. But she would no more be obliged to sign a hypothetical act of parliament with 'United Kingdon' struck through and replaced by '****land' (presumably in green ink) than she would be to sign an edict, drafted by Russell Brand for a giggle, abol***ing parliament and replacing it with an anarchist collective. A 'Yes' vote would not abol*** the sovereignty of the Crown in Parliament, even if it would put it on notice that it could no longer command the assent and loyalty of the majority of ****s.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338

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posted by Tubbs
quote:
It might not be that bad, Norway has done okay. Hopefully ****land has put some thought into what will happen if EU membership takes longer than hoped and if the rUK says no to currency union and becoming ****land's outsourced central services provider.
Norway has done OK because it is a fundamentally different society.

For a start, they have nothing like the level of welfare dependency of ****land, nor do they have anything approaching the same areas requiring regeneration, nor the same social problems.

To compare Norway now - or when it turned down EU membership - to ****land is rather like comparing lettuce and meat.

Second, the YES campaign would have had far more credibiity if it had actually bothered to hold formal discussions with UK central government departments and the Bank of ***land about what happens if there is a YES vote: they chose not to hold those talks, possibly because they wouldn't have liked the answers they got? Instead we've been treated to a mixture of entirely erroneous reassuring bluster and threats from Mr Salmond and Ms Sturgeon most of which has no basis in fact and is highly unlikely to be put into place.

Lastly, you may consider my previous post to be 'crap' but its less than polite to head your own as such.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012  |  IP: Logged
Tubbs

Miss Congeniality
# 440

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quote:
Crap spouted by L'organist:
posted by Tubbs
quote:
It might not be that bad, Norway has done okay. Hopefully ****land has put some thought into what will happen if EU membership takes longer than hoped and if the rUK says no to currency union and becoming ****land's outsourced central services provider.
Norway has done OK because it is a fundamentally different society.

For a start, they have nothing like the level of welfare dependency of ****land, nor do they have anything approaching the same areas requiring regeneration, nor the same social problems.

To compare Norway now - or when it turned down EU membership - to ****land is rather like comparing lettuce and meat.

Second, the YES campaign would have had far more credibiity if it had actually bothered to hold formal discussions with UK central government departments and the Bank of ***land about what happens if there is a YES vote: they chose not to hold those talks, possibly because they wouldn't have liked the answers they got? Instead we've been treated to a mixture of entirely erroneous reassuring bluster and threats from Mr Salmond and Ms Sturgeon most of which has no basis in fact and is highly unlikely to be put into place.

Lastly, you may consider my previous post to be 'crap' but its less than polite to head your own as such.

* was responding to Alan's response to your post. It was Alan's comment that was slightly jaw dropping. You and * would both be voting no.

At least tomorrow we'll know. The making whatever the outcome is so will be interesting.

Tubbs

[ 18. September 2014, 12:43: Message edited by: Tubbs ]

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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am

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itsarumdo
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# 18174

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* see the crap post header has been turned off again - for now. Gremlins stirring strife.

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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron

Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014  |  IP: Logged
Tubbs

Miss Congeniality
# 440

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quote:
Crap spouted by itsarumdo:
* see the crap post header has been turned off again - for now. Gremlins stirring strife.

Oh, that's what it was! [Confused] Thanks for enlightening me.

* shall have to see what else * can find in the Control Panel when * have a moment.

Tubbs

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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Crap spouted by L'organist:
Second, the YES campaign would have had far more credibiity if it had actually bothered to hold formal discussions with UK central government departments and the Bank of ***land about what happens if there is a YES vote:

They wouldn't have been able to have formal talks with anyone. Because, until the vote is counted and it comes up "yes" there is no mandate from the people of this land to discuss going it alone. At present everything said by anyone has been informal comments. Campaign rhetoric, probably representing the opinions of those making the comments, in some cases based on advice from people who would actually prepare the formal advice for formal talks. But, until someone has the mandate to formally ask a question there's no one who can give a formal answer. It's why some of us were advocating a two stage process - get the mandate to formally discuss things, work out a plan for going it alone and then put that plan to the vote.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tubbs

Miss Congeniality
# 440

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quote:
Crap spouted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Crap spouted by L'organist:
Second, the YES campaign would have had far more credibiity if it had actually bothered to hold formal discussions with UK central government departments and the Bank of ***land about what happens if there is a YES vote:

They wouldn't have been able to have formal talks with anyone. Because, until the vote is counted and it comes up "yes" there is no mandate from the people of this land to discuss going it alone. At present everything said by anyone has been informal comments. Campaign rhetoric, probably representing the opinions of those making the comments, in some cases based on advice from people who would actually prepare the formal advice for formal talks. But, until someone has the mandate to formally ask a question there's no one who can give a formal answer. It's why some of us were advocating a two stage process - get the mandate to formally discuss things, work out a plan for going it alone and then put that plan to the vote.
If there is a yes vote, the process is that there are negociations and then both sides go their seperate ways with whatever they can get.

The two stage idea is nonsense. Vote YES and then, if you can't get the deal you want, change your mind. And no doubt work towards a redo in a few years in the hope of getting something better. This really is it. [ETA: Besides, who on earth would vote on the deal offered?! Just ****land or everyone?!]

Tubbs

[ 18. September 2014, 13:45: Message edited by: Tubbs ]

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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am

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itsarumdo
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# 18174

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Listening to Alex Salmond, he's gambling that the ***l*** sense of fair play and the long relationship we have with ****land - * .e. ***l*** public opinion - will prevent Westminster shafting ****land when currency agreements are being made.

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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Crap spouted by Tubbs:
If there is a yes vote, the process is that there are negociations and then both sides go their seperate ways with whatever they can get.

Yes, that's the process that we have. It's not the only process we could have had.

But, given the process we have been given, it's inevitable that most of the questions people are asking can't be answered until negotiations are opened up. It isn't possible to accept the system we have and criticise the Yes campaign for not having answers to all the questions. If you want answers to the questions then you would need a different system that allowed Riaghaltas na-h Alba a mandate to negotiate first.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tubbs

Miss Congeniality
# 440

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quote:
Crap spouted by itsarumdo:
Listening to Alex Salmond, he's gambling that the ***l*** sense of fair play and the long relationship we have with ****land - * .e. ***l*** public opinion - will prevent Westminster shafting ****land when currency agreements are being made.

Screw that. ***land should take them for what they can get. It's not like they won't be trying to do the same thing.

63% of rUK voters think that rUK should refuse to even talk about a currency union with ****land. (You can find the Guardian poll yourselves. Link doesn't work!)

Tubbs

[ 18. September 2014, 14:07: Message edited by: Tubbs ]

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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am

Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
pimple

Ship's Irruption
# 10635

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Cette fois-demain, sans ma bouger d'un pouce, je peut vivre dans un petit pays; et la moitié la famille de ma femme peut être des étrangers! Aujoud'hui le people d'Ecosse votent s'ils veulent rester britannique. Ou non. Et la question pourrait être decidé par un seul vote exprimé par un vieil homme ou une femme à l'inigestion, ou un adolescent mécontents.

Surfeillez cet espace!

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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)

Posts: 8018 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338

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Aussi cette fois demain nous pourrions enfin être libre des goûts de Rab C Nesbitt, les râleurs perpétuels qui pensent Braveheart était l'histoire véritable, et les banquiers qui coûtent chaque homme, femme et enfant au Royaume-Uni plus de 800 livres pour renflouer une banque et qui gardent gémissant comment ils ne nous aiment pas.

Au revoir - obtenir votre passeport prêt si vous voulez venir sud.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Barnabas62
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# 9110

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Translation and summary of last two posts follows

*** ******* ** **** ***

and

*** ***** *** **** ****

And if you don't provide foreign language translations, * 'll swing the axe at your posting rights.

[Mad] [Mad]

B62
Host and axeman

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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HCH
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# 14313

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As of roughly tomorrow, we should close this thread and open a new one on the aftermath.

Notice * did not use any asterisks.

Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged



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