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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Vote on Scottish Independence
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But it's hard to imagine a huge rally in London asking Scots to stay. Maybe this is a factor as well, a lot of English people seem to feel bored or alright, fuck off then.
In contrast to the reported large indifference to the vote in England, it seems a matter of considerable interest here. By far the most common reaction from people learning I'm from Scotland is to ask me about the referendum.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Isn't that at least partly because it feels more constructive than "Oh really ? I went to Edinburgh once, its a beautiful city isn't it ?"
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
quote:
What saved Canada in 1995 was the final two weeks of the referendum campaign.
Unless the Better Together campaign have some amazing surprise up their sleeves this won't happen here.
The "Nos" are a muted majority; the "Yesses" are ebullient.
There is going to be a "No" rally, but it's by the (cringe) Orange Order and the majority of the No campaigners are actively disassociating themselves from it.
From where I sit, it's too close to call.
I think there are signs that people are waking up to it in England. I noticed Freedland's comments in the Guardian, but that was more to do with sadness.
But it's hard to imagine a huge rally in London asking Scots to stay. Maybe this is a factor as well, a lot of English people seem to feel bored or alright, fuck off then.
I mean, is there a lot of love for Scotland coming through in England? I don't see it.
Every time any high profile English person says they think the Scots should vote no, they get told to fuck off with their patronising crap by the yes campaign - with the heavy insinuation that such pronouncements actually bolster the yes campaign.
Which makes a rally somewhat problematic.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Isn't that at least partly because it feels more constructive than "Oh really ? I went to Edinburgh once, its a beautiful city isn't it ?"
Possibly, although a willingness to engage in discussion of the issues beyond what is necessary for politeness implies a real interest.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Every time any high profile English person says they think the Scots should vote no, they get told to fuck off with their patronising crap by the yes campaign - with the heavy insinuation that such pronouncements actually bolster the yes campaign.
Which makes a rally somewhat problematic.
But, a rally is an opportunity for all residents in England, not just those who are high profile, to have their say. Yes, when some public school Oxbridge graduate in public office or business opens their mouth they're going to get a snide response from the Yes campaign. Thousands of ordinary comprehensive educated people on the streets of England can't be easily dismissed.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
That presupposes some form of check point. The Scottish Government is seeking a mandate to enter negotiations, and on this point are not seeking any form of border check. So, you'll just drive down the M74 straight onto the M6. No stops (well, aside from the inevitable road works and associated tail backs).
I wonder whether the English will be less forgiving with David Cameron if he gives an independant Scotland anything. I mean, from our point of view you will have made it perfectly clear you don't care for us, so why should we let you have anything?
Someone upthread said that DC ought to resign if there was a "Yes" vote. I think it more likely that he will be voted out if he is lenient in the post-referendum negotiations.
If he takes a hard line on currency, borders etc. giving you nothing and really makes you stand on your own two feet, he may well be seen as doing exactly the right thing from an English perspective.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Yes, when some public school Oxbridge graduate in public office or business opens their mouth they're going to get a snide response from the Yes campaign. Thousands of ordinary comprehensive educated people on the streets of England can't be easily dismissed.
It's a Sunday so I shan't swear, but how on earth does the school one's parents decided to send one to affect the validity of one's views on the dismemberment of one's country?!
Besides which, is the vitriolic, hateful abuse that CyberNats spew out against their fellow Scots directed only at public-school educated Better Together campaigners or is it indiscriminate? I strongly suspect the latter.
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
What saved Canada in 1995 was the final two weeks of the referendum campaign. There was a huge rally for national unity in Montreal, completely against Quebec's referendum funding rules. The rest of the country had been tearing it hair out at being excluded from the debate; it wanted and needed a way to show it cared about Quebec.
No, it wasn't a totally cynical ploy, it was a palpable demonstration that this country did not want to die because people still believed in it.
...
I'm not sure that rally did anything except make what we used to call the ROC feel better.
The other side of the "Its really close? Oh God what are we going to do!?!??!?!!" last two week efforts is the outright bribery now rearing its head from Westminster. "If you vote no, now we will give you x". Shoulda been there months ago. Now its just all looks so cynical.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Yes, when some public school Oxbridge graduate in public office or business opens their mouth they're going to get a snide response from the Yes campaign. Thousands of ordinary comprehensive educated people on the streets of England can't be easily dismissed.
It's a Sunday so I shan't swear, but how on earth does the school one's parents decided to send one to affect the validity of one's views on the dismemberment of one's country?!
Besides which, is the vitriolic, hateful abuse that CyberNats spew out against their fellow Scots directed only at public-school educated Better Together campaigners or is it indiscriminate? I strongly suspect the latter.
It shouldn't. That doesn't mean it isn't perceived as relevant in a campaign where one side has large grass roots support with spokespeople largely from working/lower middle class backgrounds, and the other side has mainly upper middle class spokespeople. If the Better Together campaign wants to appeal to the same people as those who strongly support the Yes campaign then getting a group of people perceived as "English Toffs" to do the talking isn't going to work very well. A display of support for the Better Together from people the audience can identify with, other working/lower middle class people, would be effective. Which is why a rally (or several in different cities) in support of Better Together might be a vote winner - if it wasn't predominantly Orange Order!
[added in what I was responding to following x-post]
[ 07. September 2014, 13:20: Message edited by: Alan Cresswell ]
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
By way of an example I give you Exhibit A. David Cameron who gave an interview last week about his love of all things Scottish. He referred to his step-father-in-law, Lord Astor, who has a hunting / shooting / fishing estate in Jura, where DC enjoys holidays.
That is a PR disaster. No Scot will warm to DC when he aligns himself with absentee landlords and the extremely rich.
In fact it was such a stupid line to take, one might even suspect that David Cameron would welcome a "Yes" vote.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Originally posted by Og the Thread Killer:
quote:
The other side of the "Its really close? Oh God what are we going to do!?!??!?!!" last two week efforts is the outright bribery now rearing its head from Westminster. "If you vote no, now we will give you x". Shoulda been there months ago. Now its just all looks so cynical.
It should never have been taken off the table. Scots wanted a 3 question referendum - No, DevoMax, Yes. I read a recent poll which said that 71% of Scots would have voted for DevoMax.
The Westminster Government insisted on a 2 question referendum, Yes or No, assuming that the DevoMax voters wouldn't go as far as to vote Yes. That assumption now looks to have been very wrong.
I would bet a large sum of money that if the middle option had been left on the table that there would have been no chance of a vote for full independence. If there is a Yes vote, it's because the the Tories gambled with the future of the UK and lost.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
On another note, I hope this vote, however it goes, ends the cottage industry of consultancy about referendum that certain Canadians have built based on 2 events in a Canada that no longer exists.
[ 07. September 2014, 13:43: Message edited by: Og: Thread Killer ]
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
By way of an example I give you Exhibit A. David Cameron who gave an interview last week about his love of all things Scottish. He referred to his step-father-in-law, Lord Astor, who has a hunting / shooting / fishing estate in Jura, where DC enjoys holidays.
That is a PR disaster. No Scot will warm to DC when he aligns himself with absentee landlords and the extremely rich.
In fact it was such a stupid line to take, one might even suspect that David Cameron would welcome a "Yes" vote.
Well, it's become both ironic and farcical that Cameron is now relying on Miliband, Darling and Gordon Brown, so toxic has the Tory brand become north of the border. The leader of the Scottish Tories even helpfully suggested that the Tories would lose the next election, perhaps to assuage Scottish fears of Tory/UKIP!
People are also saying that many landowners have planted 'No' placards in their fields. You couldn't make it up.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Well, it's become both ironic and farcical that Cameron is now relying on Miliband, Darling and Gordon Brown
But I don't think anything has changed, has it? It was always going to be the case that David Cameron wasn't going to be front and centre in any campaign. Early on, Salmond challenged the Prime Minister to a TV debate and Cameron refused.
quote:
People are also saying that many landowners have planted 'No' placards in their fields. You couldn't make it up.
Why disbelief about this? I don't understand.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Why disbelief about this? I don't understand.
Think The Clearances.
[ 07. September 2014, 14:59: Message edited by: Firenze ]
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I wasn't disbelieving it. I mean that the big landowners of course don't want independence; I'm sure that the wealthy in general don't. The yes vote is surely in part a leftwards shift, and in fact, supposedly the Labour vote is shifting to yes.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I wasn't disbelieving it. I mean that the big landowners of course don't want independence; I'm sure that the wealthy in general don't. The yes vote is surely in part a leftwards shift, and in fact, supposedly the Labour vote is shifting to yes.
Any yes vote in Scotland is likely to be motivated by the same factors that led to yes votes in the 1997 and 2011 referendums in Wales, namely to reduce London's say in how Wales is governed.
By London of course, most meant Conservative.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
I'm just wondering how a 'yes' vote will impact on Wales. Should we stay with Westminster or join up with Edinburgh? We could even form the United Kingdom of Scotland and Wales..... ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Well, I think we should have federated the union, including the remaining none home nation territories, sometime ago.
Which would be devo-max for everyone.
The piecemeal nationalist movements and changes give us an incoherent overall system that really doesn't help any affected community.
[ 07. September 2014, 18:37: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
For a while I've been thinking that a federation would not be a bad thing.......the elephant in the room is England - the largest country with no devolution at all. Yet England itself is quite a complex fact .....
How would it work? An English Assembly/Parliament or further devolution of England's different regions?
I can't honestly say though that I'm enthusiastic about the UK dissolving.......
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Every time any high profile English person says they think the Scots should vote no, they get told to fuck off with their patronising crap by the yes campaign - with the heavy insinuation that such pronouncements actually bolster the yes campaign.
Which makes a rally somewhat problematic.
But, a rally is an opportunity for all residents in England, not just those who are high profile, to have their say. Yes, when some public school Oxbridge graduate in public office or business opens their mouth they're going to get a snide response from the Yes campaign. Thousands of ordinary comprehensive educated people on the streets of England can't be easily dismissed.
It would have be interesting to have held an rUK advisory vote two weeks before the actual referendum - that would have provided a fairly salient piece of information to the referendum voters.
(And frankly I think its weird that referendum voting rights are determined solely by residency - not, say, being born in Scotland and / or having parents born in Scotland.)
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stephen:
For a while I've been thinking that a federation would not be a bad thing.......the elephant in the room is England - the largest country with no devolution at all. Yet England itself is quite a complex fact .....
How would it work? An English Assembly/Parliament or further devolution of England's different regions?
I can't honestly say though that I'm enthusiastic about the UK dissolving.......
Well, either you do England as a unit, or county clusters based on population. I think Yorkshire has a similar population to Scotland / Norway. I guess it would go by region, as a fair few public services and other national bits and pieces are organised that way.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
The regions have a long history .
North to south they are currently organised as:
- North East
- North West
- Yorkshire & Humber
- West Midlands
- East Midlands
- East of England
- London
- South East
- South West
Personally, I think I might prefer the ancient names.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
(And frankly I think its weird that referendum voting rights are determined solely by residency - not, say, being born in Scotland and / or having parents born in Scotland.)
Voting solely on the latter would presumably break shed loads of anti-discrimination legislation?
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Well, either you do England as a unit, or county clusters based on population. I think Yorkshire has a similar population to Scotland / Norway. I guess it would go by region, as a fair few public services and other national bits and pieces are organised that way.
This has already been tried. The north-east was offered a regional assembly. They voted against one. The whole thing was shelved.
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I thought residency plus birth might have been better.
I know the assembly was rejected - but at that point they were not talking devo-max or anything close, and therefore it looked pretty redundant.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
Possibly. I just think it would've been an administrative nightmare.
At present, the Scottish authorities will just work from the current electoral role. Trying to issue a ballot paper to John Smith, who's never been to Scotland except for the time his English mother and English father happened to be in the country at the time of his birth, would be problematic and costly. It would at least give Sean Connery a vote, though.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I think it is important enough to be worth it - we do have a register of births - it ought to have been doable. And in the event of a yes vote, would have simplified sorting out the issuing of citizenship.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
I've no idea of the cost, but it sounds difficult.
I wouldn't agree with the citizenship point, as that would involve spending potentially millions of pounds on something that doesn't exist and might never exist.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
All jokes and jests aside, looking at it entirely from the outside of both sides with the luxury of objectivity there are a number of things that stand out very strongly. The 'yes' campaign has generally avoided the sort of regional slurs that can happen easily in campaigns like this. It understands the issues and seems to have responded with reasonably clear politically reasoned answers for the most part (regardless of whether anyone actually agrees with it). The 'no' campaign on the other hand has indulged in what appears to folk on the outside of it all as very silly scare mongering and alarmist stuff that has often been later revealled to be utter nonsense and unfounded, which hasn't really done them any favours in making their arguments look persuasive. There is also an element in what has already been hinted at - the rich poor divide, unfortunately divided the wrong way in the 'yes' and 'no' camps. I don't think the notion of Presbyterian equality should be underestimated as a cultural factor either.
There is also the momentum of the campaign itself. the 'yes' group seem to be excited, happy, positive while unfortunately the 'no' group appear negative, nervous and frightened. From the outside looking in, the sort of 'offers' (if that's what they can even be called) that have all of a sudden appeared on the table seem to be a little like telling a child that if it plays nice it will get sweets later.
There is a huge political risk for David Cameron. If the 'yes' get it, I can see no other option for him but to resign. It will demonstrate that he seriously underestimated the feeling of a nation of which he has charge. Even of they don't get it at this stage, his political position has been very seriously weakened. The risk is much the same for Salmond though. If there is a 'yes' vote then all well and good for him, but in the event of a 'no' vote I think he also would have to resign.
I honestly think that if England had engaged much earlier in the whole debate things might have been much better for the 'no' campaign, but the government in the 'no' camp really hasn't got a handle on the daft scare mongering stories. For instance, I was reading only tonight an article in a newspaper that was talking about setting up border posts to check crossings, mention of Visa'a and how it would be up to England to protect its borders because Scotland would be so loose and useless. It was even quoting Miliband as saying roughly the same things (although I have no idea if he really did). It is this sort of thing that feeds the wrong type of 'yes' vote and makes the government look thoroughly stupid and incompetent. They care so much about the border between Ireland and the Uk that it's not got a single real person manning it anymore. Sooner or later, someone in the press or the 'yes' campaign is going to point out this potentially embarrassing fact.
Overall it does appear that much of the 'no' campaign is actually working quite hard for the 'yes' campaign, which in turn makes the current UK government look a bit daft and disconnected. It's hard then to be quite so surprised when the 'yes' campaign seems to have made such serious gains. All that said, I still don't think the yes will get it.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
If the policy of the two countries diverges considerably there will have to be border controls.
Why would there need to be border controls?
There may be no need for border controls. It depends whether Scotland has Schengen opt-out and a markedly different immigration policy.
[ 07. September 2014, 21:19: Message edited by: Spawn ]
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
For instance, I was reading only tonight an article in a newspaper that was talking about setting up border posts to check crossings, mention of Visa'a and how it would be up to England to protect its borders because Scotland would be so loose and useless. It was even quoting Miliband as saying roughly the same things (although I have no idea if he really did). It is this sort of thing that feeds the wrong type of 'yes' vote and makes the government look thoroughly stupid and incompetent. They care so much about the border between Ireland and the Uk that it's not got a single real person manning it anymore. Sooner or later, someone in the press or the 'yes' campaign is going to point out this potentially embarrassing fact.
It's not really embarrassing is it? The point Milliband is making is that if Scotland doesn't have an opt out from Schengen there'll have to be border checkpoints. That's why Ireland opted out when the UK did because it had a land border with UK. And that is why no-one is manning the border crossing because they have the same opt out.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
[...] I don't think the notion of Presbyterian equality should be underestimated as a cultural factor either. [...]
Great observation, this, and something the Westminster elite just doesn't get. (If they even remember the Church of Scotland exists.)
Never having been conquered by the Normans, Scotland's class system is markedly different to England's. England's elite aren't just richer, they have a different culture (Francophile, cosmopolitan, segregated from childhood, first in their estates, now in private schools). As an extreme illustration, until its New Town was built, Edinburgh rich and poor shared the same tenement buildings.
Neo-liberalism, ironically driven by Margaret Thatcher's Methodist work ethic, has exacerbated England's Saxon-Norman fault-line beyond all reason. No wonder Scots feel alienated by events south of the border.
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
And if Scotland remains in Europe - which let's be perfectly honest, is about 100% certain - and if Britain's government is in long (likely very long) talks with a new nation (if it comes to that), you honestly don't think it will work out some kind of border policy that will involve as little cost and manning as possible? I think so, and I'm not even a politician, yet embarrassingly a politician seems to be seeing quite a different picture; in fact, the least likely option that would likely be the outcome on the basis of gross mis-handling of a situation and crass political incompetence. I'd class that as embarrassing.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
Easy access across the border will probably be demanded by local English MP's, in terms of what's good for business is good for being an MP. Whether Westminster listens to them is another matter - the insular backlash within England may be quite shocking, if this referendum goes Yes.
In this scenario, England might be ripe for a populist led party winning at the polls out of nowhere. From what I have read, UKIP ain't it. I would suggest parties who base their leadership on parliamentary power of the MP might be in trouble. People might actually want a say in who the leaders are, strangely enough.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
Yup, the specter of a new Hadrian's Wall is scaremongering of the laziest kind. No rUK legislature is gonna vote through a bill to spend hundreds of millions on a border fence. Logistics aside, it'd be fantastically unpopular the length and breadth of the British Isles.
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
From the outside looking in, the sort of 'offers' (if that's what they can even be called) that have all of a sudden appeared on the table seem to be a little like telling a child that if it plays nice it will get sweets later.
There has been a tendency for Better Together to create an impression that they (or Westminster government) are a parent who knows best telling a young child how to behave. Like any parent who has repeatedly failed to get children to behave by other means they resort to the exasperated "behave and you'll get a treat" method.
Of course, that doesn't come across very well to the people of Scotland. We may have needed a bail out after Darien, but feel we're grown up now and ready to go out and make our own place in the world. I guess like any young adult we're certain we know everything and are going to succeed at everything we set our mind to, and we're as certain as every young adult to quite quickly find we don't know everything and things rarely go the way we expect.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
Never having been conquered by the Normans, Scotland's class system is markedly different to England's.
The reason Scotland was never conquered by the Normans is only because King David I of Scotland invited the Normans in and gave them lots of land in return for them defending his borders. The lowland Scots elite is just as Norman as the rest of the UK.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
If Scotland does go independent, I suspect, ideally, when the financial bits are worked out, it will be a parting as between the Czechs and Slovaks: both immensely decent people. If it happens it doesn't have to be painful. As someone with both English and Scottish ancestors, I think you two nations can still show the world how to do things if you put your minds to it.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
The reason Scotland was never conquered by the Normans is only because King David I of Scotland invited the Normans in and gave them lots of land in return for them defending his borders. The lowland Scots elite is just as Norman as the rest of the UK.
David also had a habit of invading England with
quote:
an execrable army, more atrocious than the pagans, neither fearing God nor regarding man, spread desolation over the whole province and slaughtered everywhere people of either sex, of every age and rank, destroying, pillaging and burning towns, churches and houses.
His predecessor Malcolm was equally found of harrying northern England, and his eventual defeat by the Normans was far from crushing (he got lands in Cumbria in return for giving his loyalty to William the Bastard).
So yes, undoubtedly Norman influence in the Borders, but nothing comparable to the wholesale change of ruling class in England.
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Mar 2010
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore:
If Scotland does go independent, I suspect, ideally, when the financial bits are worked out, it will be a parting as between the Czechs and Slovaks: both immensely decent people. If it happens it doesn't have to be painful. As someone with both English and Scottish ancestors, I think you two nations can still show the world how to do things if you put your minds to it.
I think it will probably be painful, and also there will be anger on both sides; in fact, I think this is already happening. However, I don't think that is a bar to it; separations are often painful, but may be still positive.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
That presupposes some form of check point. The Scottish Government is seeking a mandate to enter negotiations, and on this point are not seeking any form of border check. So, you'll just drive down the M74 straight onto the M6. No stops (well, aside from the inevitable road works and associated tail backs).
I wonder whether the English will be less forgiving with David Cameron if he gives an independant Scotland anything. I mean, from our point of view you will have made it perfectly clear you don't care for us, so why should we let you have anything?
I'm struck by the parallel between this and differing notions of divorce.
Some couples split fairly amicably, try to remain friends and sort everything out.
Some couples vow to bring in the lawyers and fight for every last scrap of property.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Some couples vow to bring in the lawyers and fight for every last scrap of property.
An some couples vow to bring in the lawyers and end up spending every last scrap on legal fees. Translate lawyers to politicians and there's a fair risk that more important things will be ignored in a mutual vendetta.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Alan: quote:
A display of support for the Better Together from people the audience can identify with, other working/lower middle class people, would be effective.
Perhaps this has not happened because many working/lower middle class people would rather like to opt out of being governed from London themselves?
I see some of the papers are trying to whip up anti-republican sentiment by suggesting that the Queen (though officially neutral) is worried about the consequences of a Yes vote. I'd be surprised if it had much effect on the referendum result, though; I'm sure any Scots who care about the question of who gets to be Head of State are perfectly well aware that the Queen will go on being Queen of Scotland as long as they want her to, whether or not Scotland is politically united with the rest of the UK.
[ 08. September 2014, 08:13: Message edited by: Jane R ]
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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agingjb
Shipmate
# 16555
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Posted
So, the Irish frontier is lightly policed because both countries have opted out of an agreement to make frontiers more open.
It would, of course, be unpopular and almost insane to impose significant border controls, but with angry politicians who knows?
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Refraction Villanelles
Posts: 464 | From: Southern England | Registered: Jul 2011
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by agingjb:
So, the Irish frontier is lightly policed because both countries have opted out of an agreement to make frontiers more open.
It would, of course, be unpopular and almost insane to impose significant border controls, but with angry politicians who knows?
No it would be insane not to police the border if Scotland's immigration policy poses a security risk. That would be an issue of negotiation.
I think it is wrong to think of this as divorce. My view is that it will be a relatively amicable but tough set of negotiations. It is in the interests of both nations to have a decent future relationship. But let's not pretend it will be business as usual. Independence has considerable financial costs for both sides.
Having said that, I think the 'no' vote will prevail by a reasonable margin.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Relevant how? Exactly?
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Perfect timing.
Why would that make any difference?
Some may think this might make a few undecided voters to go all fluffy and vote 'No'.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Perfect timing.
Why would that make any difference?
Some may think this might make a few undecided voters to go all fluffy and vote 'No'.
Quite. My understanding (from reading the British press, anyway) was that the Australian republican movement suffered a bit of a setback when confronted with a bouncing baby Prince George. Spending the remainder of the campaign cooing over how delightful the Countess of Strathearn looks would I think, on balance, be beneficial to the Better Together campaign.
Of course, this won't wash with the right-on, leftie Scots Nats shipmates who like to discuss the finer points of the Schengen Agreement, but then we're not exactly typical voters, are we?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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