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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Can the US Republican Party be saved?
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
I was sorely tempted to start a thread in Hell about ... pretty much most of the behavior of the US Republican Party. It seems to me that pretty much every single thing they have done over more than the last decade has been thoroughly vile. It makes me angry, it saddens me, it frustrates me, and it baffles me.
However...
It wasn't always this way. Democrats and Republicans used to be able to disagree while still respecting each other and working out a compromise. (Democrats still try to do this, generally speaking.) Republicans used to be in favor of things like the EPA. (It's somewhat troubling that our most moderate Republican president since Nixon was... Nixon. Yes, really. Never thought we'd be looking back at him that way!) Now they've gotten into, bluntly, Crazytown. They've become the party that fights any social safety net, any environmental stuff, any rights for workers, and the list just keeps going. They've been driving the more moderate voices from their midst for some time now to the point where a lot of still pretty extreme right-wing people are disparaged as being "RINOs" (Republicans In Name Only).
There's got to be hope, right? Can the more moderate traditional GOP people take their party back? Are we really going to be stuck with only one sane political party?
It wasn't always this way. Maybe it doesn't have to be this way forever? Maybe we could have the ability to work together again, somehow?
![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
[ 08. January 2015, 14:29: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
Since the link between right-wing evangelical Christianity and the Republican Party was made in the 1980s or so, the possibility of a moderate Republican in the White House has been steadily decreasing.
Both John McCain and Mitt Romney had reputations as moderates and both were pushed to the right in order to appeal to the party's base.
Then there's the fact that the GOP is now a coalition of interest groups with conflicting interests:
- pro-business "corporations are people" vs. tea party anti-corporate conspiracy theory-types
- social conservatives who want police in every bedroom vs. libertarians who want the gov't to leave everyone alone
This may be controversial but the few things that all of the above appear to share is a love of the use of force, and a mistrust of minorities, immigrants, and single mothers. Are those two things enough to hold this fragile coalition together? I don't think so.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I don't know a great deal of the ins-and-outs but it does all seem to have polarised in recent years. I can't believe the amount of conspiracy theory stuff I see pouring out of right-wing Republicans I've somehow got myself entangled with on discussion boards ...
They seem perfectly sane and rational otherwise but next thing you know they are off on one about Obama not being American or a secret Muslim or not even a human being but a Lizard Man from Planet Zarg ...
![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
“Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the [Republican] party and they’re sure trying to do so, it’s going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can’t and won’t compromise. I know, I’ve tried to deal with them.”
~ Barry Goldwater, November 1994, as quoted in John Dean, Conservatives Without Conscience (2006)
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
Posts: 894 | From: Middle England | Registered: Apr 2010
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
Wow, how prophetic was that?!
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
What a world where Barry Goldwater is the voice of reasoned moderation!
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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opaWim
Shipmate
# 11137
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Posted
Most of what I perceive about these things is fueled by The Daily Show and The Colbert Report, and a little bit of CNN-international.
So, naturally I blame Fox news, or would praise them into Hell like Stephen Colbert does.
But Fox News is of course not the cause, it's only a "news channel" that makes a lot of money by providing what a frighteningly (to me) large part of 'merrican TV-viewers want to hear. (And, yes, Comedy Central makes money by providing what the likes of me want to hear.)
That said, I still fail completely in understanding how 'merrica manages to keep going.
Well, I do have a theory, but explaining that theory would probably only be allowed in Hell.
[ 01. August 2014, 10:06: Message edited by: opaWim ]
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It's the Thirties all over again, possibly even worse.
Posts: 524 | From: The Marshes | Registered: Mar 2006
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
I see the cultured despisers are out in force. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
I think this is an interesting topic for a thread. I wonder if there might be a split in the GOP (perhaps in the Democrats too). As has been commented on these boards before, there is not such a clear association between evangelicals and conservatism here in the UK. In fact, most my friends who belong to evangelical churches are either Labour supporters or outright socialists. I've seen some very uncomfortable situations with visiting American evangelicals. Having said that, there is a smallish stream within UK evangelicals who are attempting to pick up on the fiercely nationalistic (or perhaps 'exceptionalist') tone of their US cousins. At HTB (I left 7 years ago) it was common for 'speakers' to repeatedly get the congregation to pray (frequently with incantation-style chanting and shouting) for God to put more Christians in government and places of influence. This kind of crap has its roots in 'Kingdom' and 'Kingdom Now' theologies (with Dominionism as a strong core). Now this should take us back across the pond… American exceptionalism is the immovable core of most American evangelical movements and, despite some variety, American evangelicism has its very own party. What I'm getting at is that the evangelical churches as well as a big chunk of the GOP believe the national 'cause' is God's cause. There is no way of changing that—the only way is to create another party (something like Giddens' Third Way, adapted for the US).
What has been interesting on this side of the pond is that Labour and the Tories have generally resisted appeals from UK evangelicals to become God's party in Westminster. Only UKIP nutters have tried to take up the cause. In office, both Blair, Brown and Cameron tended to wear their faiths lightly (or been vague about it). You cannot imagine a modern American president saying something like their faith is 'a private matter'. Cameron shows signs of trying to cuddle up to Conservative evangelicals, but as I pointed out above, that kind of Tory rhetoric will not go down well in many evangelical churches—unlike in the US where they whoop and wave flags. The deputy PM and the Leader of the Opposition are both atheists (as are many Tories)—I can't imagine something similar in the US.
I'm off to Virginia in the US next week and, as usual down there, will have to endure Right Wing nonsense on a daily basis. When you do meet sane people in the US, they usually take you aside and whisper something to you to let you know that they're 'not one of *them*'.
Gorgeous coastline though… It's a big relief to get up North after that, which feels like a return to planet Earth after being south of the Mason-Dixon line.
By the way, just to avoid pond wars, I want to thank our American cousins for improving their beer so much. I'm really looking forward to it!
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
Thanks for that, Komensky. I think American Exceptionalism is one of the most dangerous and godless forces in the world at the moment.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
“Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the [Republican] party and they’re sure trying to do so, it’s going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can’t and won’t compromise. I know, I’ve tried to deal with them.”
~ Barry Goldwater, November 1994, as quoted in John Dean, Conservatives Without Conscience (2006)
I actually don't think it's purely down to involvement by the Religious Right - though that does play a part in rendering some positions verboten within the GOP.
There is also a general shift to the right in American politics - and lately there is a section of the right who is willing to hold things up permanently (or at least threaten to do so) in order to get their own way.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
When you do meet sane people in the US, they usually take you aside and whisper something to you to let you know that they're 'not one of *them*'.
Can we collectively stop pretending that all Americans are middle class white Christians?
In Virginia you will struggle to find any of the large number of African-Americans or Latinos in the state publicly spouting the GOP party line. Nor will you find many of them of any race in Washington DC suburbs.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
Good point, Chris. Note how Republican history has to be re-written. Reagan, for example, was not a practicing Christian but is now their patron saint (they've swapped Lincoln for Reagan!).
Have you seen http://reaganbook.com/? Launched with love by Sarah Palin as the patriotic alternative to Facebook. Have a look at the very active Right of American evangelical insanity
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/.
I don't think you'd hear this kind of stuff even at the most hysterical of independent evangelical churches in the UK. When, on occasion, some crackpot (usually from UKIP or the BNP or some such) makes a John Piper-esque comment about a deserved tragedy it makes the news and they're forced, out of shame, to give up whatever pathetic political role they had.
Trying to keep the OP going; I see very few options for sane American Conservatives who want a conservative economic policy, but without the religious prescriptions on living. I've met a fair few Americans who voted GOP until Clinton, then switched to the Democrats. As was pointed out above, the shift to the Right has been such that moderate Democrats (and that's all they have left) are closer to the moderate Conservatives of old.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
When you do meet sane people in the US, they usually take you aside and whisper something to you to let you know that they're 'not one of *them*'.
Can we collectively stop pretending that all Americans are middle class white Christians?
In Virginia you will struggle to find any of the large number of African-Americans or Latinos in the state publicly spouting the GOP party line. Nor will you find many of them of any race in Washington DC suburbs.
That was my point.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
That was my point.
Why are they whispering then? Why are you meeting so few "sane" Americans? The demographics suggest that most Americans do not actually support right wing politics, yet you claim the ones who don't act like they are members of a secret society.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
I don't see anyone in DC worthy of much respect or admiration.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
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*Leon*
Shipmate
# 3377
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Posted
Being in the political wilderness can concentrate the mind, and being guaranteed to be in power can cloud it.
They'll lose control of the house. The house will be somewhat un-gerrymandered so there's no chance of them regaining it in their current form. After 1 4-year cycle in that situation, republicans will start being willing to 'compromise their principles' to return to power, some charismatic leader will offer a centrist electable version of republicanism and get the party behind him/her.
Meanwhile the democrats will have forgotten how to deal with a remotely credible opposition, will elect an uninspiring leader, and be fairly easy to defeat.
Or at least that's what seems to happen in the UK (Blair and Cameron being, IMHO, centrist charismatic leaders that defeated parties that had lost their way after too long in power.)
Posts: 831 | From: london | Registered: Oct 2002
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by *Leon*:
They'll lose control of the house.
They will keep control of the house and it is questionable if the Democrats will keep control of the senate.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
I don't know if this is what triggered the OP, but the other day Republicans valiantly prevented Republican-drafted legislation from coming to a vote. There seems to me a failure in party leadership to discipline its members--it is allowing the minority to call the shots rather than the majority, which is (frankly) undemocratic.
Worse, the moderate Republicans--perhaps because they are moderate and reasonable--don't seem to have the courage to fight the far-right. Instead, there is a tendency to just give up. That is not the solution. The moderates need to stay and fight to get the party back under control.
quote:
By the way, just to avoid pond wars, I want to thank our American cousins for improving their beer so much. I'm really looking forward to it!
Thank you! There is still work to do, but our hops are in the right place.
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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*Leon*
Shipmate
# 3377
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by *Leon*:
They'll lose control of the house.
They will keep control of the house and it is questionable if the Democrats will keep control of the senate.
I didn't say which election I was predicting.
Their long-term trend is downwards and I don't think they'll be open to a new direction until forced to. They need to lose the house to be forced to take a new direction.
Posts: 831 | From: london | Registered: Oct 2002
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by *Leon*:
Their long-term trend is downwards and I don't think they'll be open to a new direction until forced to. They need to lose the house to be forced to take a new direction.
Anything is possible. The Democrats lost the house. Is that forcing them to take a new direction?
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
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*Leon*
Shipmate
# 3377
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by *Leon*:
Their long-term trend is downwards and I don't think they'll be open to a new direction until forced to. They need to lose the house to be forced to take a new direction.
Anything is possible. The Democrats lost the house. Is that forcing them to take a new direction?
No, because they have a credible chance of taking the white house at the next presidential election, and if they didn't, they haven't had long enough to realise that yet. I'm suggesting that when a party sets off in a direction that's heading away from the opinions of the electorate, they need to lose all power before they can stop and turn round. While they think there's a credible chance of being able to cause chaos in the house, they stand no chance of making the changes that would give them a credible presidential candidate.
Posts: 831 | From: london | Registered: Oct 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Mere Nick: The Democrats lost the house. Is that forcing them to take a new direction?
The way I understand it, the fact that Democrats aren't in control of the House has a lot to do with the way district lines are drawn.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
That was my point.
Why are they whispering then? Why are you meeting so few "sane" Americans? The demographics suggest that most Americans do not actually support right wing politics, yet you claim the ones who don't act like they are members of a secret society.
I share Komensky's experience, simply because of a personal circumstance. My visits to the US are generally to drive my mother down to Florida where she lives a life of golfing and birdwatching. She is very social and has many friendships among the country club set. I have been astonished with the virulence and irrationality of political views among these settings--- I have sat through more than one conversation where we Canadians are viewed as victims of the socialist tyranny of Stephen Harper and are pitied because we do not rise up with the spirit of 1776. It can be quite surreal at times.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Mere Nick: The Democrats lost the house. Is that forcing them to take a new direction?
The way I understand it, the fact that Democrats aren't in control of the House has a lot to do with the way district lines are drawn.
Indeed, it's gerrymandering pure and simple. In 2012 the Democrats elected/re-elected to the House received more votes than the Republicans did.
Politifact
quote:
House Democrats out-earned their Republican counterparts by 1.17 million votes. Read another way, Democrats won 50.59 percent of the two-party vote. Still, they won just 46.21 percent of seats, leaving the Republicans with 234 seats and Democrats with 201.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
I share Komensky's experience, simply because of a personal circumstance. My visits to the US are generally to drive my mother down to Florida where she lives a life of golfing and birdwatching. She is very social and has many friendships among the country club set. I have been astonished with the virulence and irrationality of political views among these settings--- I have sat through more than one conversation where we Canadians are viewed as victims of the socialist tyranny of Stephen Harper and are pitied because we do not rise up with the spirit of 1776. It can be quite surreal at times.
Sure, but you admit that it's a country club set.
I'm a black American with a graduate degree from the Northeast. Such views are as alien to me as they are to a Canadian or a Brit. The only Republicans I know are purely economically conservative and feel the GOP has been hijacked by Southern religious fundamentalists.
I'm only repeating this because that's why I believe the GOP is in long-term trouble. It's defending a version of America that no longer exists. America is becoming less white, more educated, and more urbanized. All of these things are correlated with support for the Democratic party.
To claim that "Americans" broadly agree with the fringe views in the Republican Party is to buy into their claim that they represent Americans better than the Democrats do. The numbers don't match this assertion, however.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
34 states draw their own congressional districts. Seven only have one representative. The others use supposedly independent bodies to draw the lines.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
I share Komensky's experience, simply because of a personal circumstance. My visits to the US are generally to drive my mother down to Florida where she lives a life of golfing and birdwatching. She is very social and has many friendships among the country club set. I have been astonished with the virulence and irrationality of political views among these settings--- I have sat through more than one conversation where we Canadians are viewed as victims of the socialist tyranny of Stephen Harper and are pitied because we do not rise up with the spirit of 1776. It can be quite surreal at times.
Sure, but you admit that it's a country club set.
I'm a black American with a graduate degree from the Northeast. Such views are as alien to me as they are to a Canadian or a Brit. The only Republicans I know are purely economically conservative and feel the GOP has been hijacked by Southern religious fundamentalists.
I'm only repeating this because that's why I believe the GOP is in long-term trouble. It's defending a version of America that no longer exists. America is becoming less white, more educated, and more urbanized. All of these things are correlated with support for the Democratic party.
To claim that "Americans" broadly agree with the fringe views in the Republican Party is to buy into their claim that they represent Americans better than the Democrats do. The numbers don't match this assertion, however.
Indeed, I wanted it quite clear that it was a country club set. I am puzzled that Republican leaders feel that focussing on the perceptions of a numerically-shrinking cohort is a strategy for political success for the future. Their handling of the immigration issue is a perfect example; when a demographically important and theoretically natural ally Latino-origin population is being treated as a dangerous and alien enemy, it cannot be logical to expect many votes from them.
I have found that raising these issues gets me puzzled looks and silence. Most recently, I was accused of being taken in by the New York Times, but replied that we had our own newspapers in Canada. (I fear that I was mischievous at that occasion when they asked me who Canadians would prefer for a leader in the US-- I replied Kerry or Gingrich, for they both had excellent French).
I think that my lack of enthusiasm for golf disturbed them even more than my politics. During my forays south of the border, I find that I am most comfortable in coffee houses near universities where the population looks more like what I am used to in Ottawa.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
I see the cultured despisers are out in force.
Nothing wrong with being cultured. Nothing wrong with despising what's despicable.
[ 01. August 2014, 14:43: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Nothing wrong with despising what's despicable.
Yep, and I pretty much despise our despicable government. I don't seem to be alone.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
What is so suicidal about the GOP at this moment what seems to be its uncontrollable impulse to repel voters. I am a resident of Virginia, famed as the home of the state-mandated trans-vaginal probe. There is not a woman I know in this state who will vote for the GOP. And of course they are fantabulous at repulsing persons of color and ethnicity. Who is left, but ageing angry white men?
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
What is so suicidal about the GOP at this moment what seems to be its uncontrollable impulse to repel voters.
That seems to be applicable to both major parties. The campaign slogan of "We Suck Less" can't be too far off.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
What is so suicidal about the GOP at this moment what seems to be its uncontrollable impulse to repel voters. I am a resident of Virginia, famed as the home of the state-mandated trans-vaginal probe. There is not a woman I know in this state who will vote for the GOP. And of course they are fantabulous at repulsing persons of color and ethnicity. Who is left, but ageing angry white men?
In a perfect world, or even just a perfect democracy, that would be the end of it. They've repulsed so many key demographics that they'd simply be unelectable and would mercifully drift into oblivion, a mere footnote in history.
But sadly we have far from a perfect democracy. The GOP doesn't care how many voters it repulses because that's become irrelevant. Over the last few decades (Citizens United, anyone?) they have managed to rig the system so that as long as they are able to attract the big money-- the Koch bros (demigods of the angry white male) and their ilk-- they will be able to buy the votes they need thru clever use of smoke & mirrors (i.e. deceptive fear-mongering advertising, gerrymandering & vote-blocking). So, while I would love to buy a new dress & dance at their wake, I'm afraid that's not happening any time soon.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Mere Nick: Just because you happen to (irrationally) despise Democrats, there is no reason to believe that, say, a Latino legal immigrant or a black woman or a civil servant might want to even think about voting GOP. You would appear to be privileged to some information that is not available to other people reading about the US.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
It wasn't always this way. Democrats and Republicans used to be able to disagree while still respecting each other and working out a compromise.
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Indeed, I wanted it quite clear that it was a country club set. I am puzzled that Republican leaders feel that focussing on the perceptions of a numerically-shrinking cohort is a strategy for political success for the future. Their handling of the immigration issue is a perfect example; when a demographically important and theoretically natural ally Latino-origin population is being treated as a dangerous and alien enemy, it cannot be logical to expect many votes from them.
These are related issues. For about a century following the U.S. Civil War there were a large number of conservative Southerners who were Democrats because Lincoln freed the slaves. There was also a large contingent of moderate Northerners who were Republicans for largely the same reason. A lot of the bipartisan compromises that people are so nostalgic about were bipartisan because legislators were divided along regional rather than partisan lines (Northerners vs. Southerners rather than Democrats vs. Republicans).
This changed in the mid-1960s when the Democratic party went all in on civil rights. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 was a classic illustration of "bipartisan compromise" (the bill was supported by a majority of both parties) masking a sectional divide (all Northern legislators voted in favor, almost all Southern legislators were opposed). In the wake of this the Republican party set out to court disaffected white Southern racists who felt they'd been betrayed by the Democratic party in what became known as the Southern Strategy.
Of course the problem with making yourself the party of white racism is that it's only a successful strategy if the country remains overwhelmingly white (and whites remain fairly racist). In other words, deliberately appealing to Latino voters would jeopardize the Republican party's standing with its current voters in a gamble to appeal to new voters who might not respond favorably.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
What is so suicidal about the GOP at this moment what seems to be its uncontrollable impulse to repel voters.
That seems to be applicable to both major parties. The campaign slogan of "We Suck Less" can't be too far off.
Seems to me that has been the de facto if not de jure motto of both parties for decades. And I have seen Democratic bumper stickers etc. that say "We may not be perfect but the other guys are nuts." Which I find hard to argue with.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I think one of the worrying trends I've noticed online (rather than in real-life, which is bound to be more nuanced and different) ... is that some of the Southern fundies seem to have discovered Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism and are bringing their US exceptionalism into those Churches ...
So the same kind of 'city on a hill', manifest destiny schtick is being transferred to Putin.
Yes, seriously ...
The West is wicked and evil and Obama is out not just to destroy America but to destroy civilisation as we know it ...
It's as if they are swapping one form of skewed and bat-shit focus for another.
I've come across comments online by both US RCs and Orthodox who are very concerned about this trend.
There must be something in the water down there. Or else they're still drinking illicit liquor from mountain stills ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Agreed generally, but if the Latina immigrant is Catholic, she might want to consider the GOP for religious reasons.
The difficulty here for the Latina in question is that (many, not all) Republicans are on message with the hierarchy on abortion and the contraception mandate, but are at odds with them on migration, family support, and the death penalty. It might be that individual candidates could respond more subtly than the party as a whole. And, of course, we are not even touching Pope Frank's observations on capitalism and the banking system.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I can see why the GOP would appeal to religious conservatives of all stripes ... it's more 'pro-life' and so on.
But it does seem to be more of a 'white' thing than a black, hispanic or other ethnic minority thing. I saw something online the other day in which some US Orthodox folks were railing against a Greek Orthodox event in which a Democrat politician was invited to speak.
'The Greeks tend to me liberal than most folks,' one of them grunted.
Blimey! ... I thought. If that's the case then it isn't very hard ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
These are related issues. For about a century following the U.S. Civil War there were a large number of conservative Southerners who were Democrats because Lincoln freed the slaves. There was also a large contingent of moderate Northerners who were Republicans for largely the same reason. A lot of the bipartisan compromises that people are so nostalgic about were bipartisan because legislators were divided along regional rather than partisan lines (Northerners vs. Southerners rather than Democrats vs. Republicans).
This changed in the mid-1960s when the Democratic party went all in on civil rights. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 was a classic illustration of "bipartisan compromise" (the bill was supported by a majority of both parties) masking a sectional divide (all Northern legislators voted in favor, almost all Southern legislators were opposed). In the wake of this the Republican party set out to court disaffected white Southern racists who felt they'd been betrayed by the Democratic party in what became known as the Southern Strategy.
Of course the problem with making yourself the party of white racism is that it's only a successful strategy if the country remains overwhelmingly white (and whites remain fairly racist). In other words, deliberately appealing to Latino voters would jeopardize the Republican party's standing with its current voters in a gamble to appeal to new voters who might not respond favorably.
Linked to this is the fact that the "Christian right" arose not, as many liberals suppose, from a Roe v. Wade backlash, but over segregation at Bob Jones University.
Liberals tend to be real bad at empathizing with dogmatists (I say as a liberal). We assume people can be reached through reason. All too often, we blame ourelves for extremists. "If only we'd tried harder to understand them." If a check isn't kept on this tendency, one of our greatest strengths, self-criticism, morphs into Oslo Syndrome.
The hard truth is that some folks you just can't persuade. You have to beat 'em.
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274
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Posted
Can the US Republican party be saved?"
I guess John Wesley and those like him would answer:
"Yes, all can be saved." And not only that, but "can be saved to the uttermost!"
Viewing the evidence, however, Calvinist might think differently.
As for the Democrats....................
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
I don't know if this is what triggered the OP
It's been cumulative frustration and sadness and anger for some time now, and I wanted to do something more constructive than vent on a Hell thread.
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
That seems to be applicable to both major parties. The campaign slogan of "We Suck Less" can't be too far off.
I would disagree here--I know the Democrats are a tad more conservative than they should be compared with the rest of the civilized world, but I think Obama is the best president we've had in my lifetime (I'm 46).
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I can see why the GOP would appeal to religious conservatives of all stripes ... it's more 'pro-life' and so on.
I'd say it's pro-birth. Apart from what one believes about abortion (and trying to dodge Dead Horse territory), one of the most frustrating things I find about the current GOP is that their concern about such matters seems to stop the moment the child exits the womb, since they've been actively trying to tear down the social safety net that might help feed and care for babies, children, mothers (single and otherwise), and so on--and, currently and totally bafflingly, they seem to be moving against birth control (as in the Hobby Lobby caee), which I thought was a completely done deal decades ago.
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Photo Geek
Shipmate
# 9757
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Posted
A good first step might be for the GOP leadership to regularly call out all the "batshit crazy" members of the GOP clown car (I'm sure we all know who they are). ![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
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"Liberal Christian" is not an oxymoron.
Posts: 242 | From: Southern Ohio, US | Registered: Jul 2005
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I have been telling everybody: vote. And get your friends to vote. Our only prayer, to seize the power back from the loons, is at the ballot box. Even gerrymandering, even the Koch brothers, even outright vote fraud, cannot stand against a large enough voter plurality. Vote, and shame the devil.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Agreed generally, but if the Latina immigrant is Catholic, she might want to consider the GOP for religious reasons.
Again, yes-- but only because of the smoke & mirrors. The GOP money machine has very effectively managed to market themselves as the "pro-life" (as well as the "family values") party, while doing exactly 0 on either issue. Abortions have gone down under every Democratic administration and gone up under Republican-- for a reason. But again, with ample funds to ample out an illusion of caring about unborn children (even if you care diddly-squat about poor children to say nothing of refugee children fleeing So. America) that is sufficient.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
From my perspective the Republican party used to be a voice of moderation--in fact, Republicans stood for a more centralized government. Democrats were more States Rights, but it all began to change when Johnson pushed through the Civil Rights Bill.
Nixon and his cohorts saw an opportunity there. They came up with the Southern Strategy to appeal to disaffected Southern White voters. They began to try to bring in the George Wallace crowd. In 1968 it became a fait accompli when Jackson got the Democratic Party to kick out the all white Mississippi convention delegation in Chicago.
Ever since then the Republicans became the party of states rights, and Southern States turned red.
However, as this happened moderate Republicans were forced out of the party. Jon Anderson was a Republican. When he realized he would not get the nomination of the Republican party he became independent. I can name many Republicans who no longer felt comfortable in the party.
The party has taken a hard right for several reasons. Having a black president certainly riled up the base. The party also has received a lot of money from people like the Koch brothers who have used it for their financial gain. I imagine Teddy Roosevelt is spinning in his grave over some of the things the party has done for the Koch brothers.
Now, it seems the party is feeding on itself with Republican party candidates trying to prove they are more conservative than their Republican primary opponents.
The party is beginning to fracture. Just this summer the Idaho State Republican party could not agree on any platform or endorse any candidates. They could not even agree on a new chairman or central committee. In the end they just voted ot adjourn. Now there is a big court fight as to who controls the party.
I know many people will say Idaho is just small potatoes (pun very much intended), but I look at it as a canary in a mine. Mississippi's party is also fracturing. Indiana as well.
While the Republicans will control the House again this year and may regain the Senate, I think by 2016 you will see some big changes in the national election. Texas will probably swing Democratic because of the increasing latino population. If Texas goes Democrat it will mean the end of the Republican party as it is now configured.
Look for the TEA party crowd to form their own party after that. What will remain will have to work at regaining the trust of more moderate people.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
I share Komensky's experience, simply because of a personal circumstance. My visits to the US are generally to drive my mother down to Florida where she lives a life of golfing and birdwatching. She is very social and has many friendships among the country club set. I have been astonished with the virulence and irrationality of political views among these settings--- I have sat through more than one conversation where we Canadians are viewed as victims of the socialist tyranny of Stephen Harper and are pitied because we do not rise up with the spirit of 1776. It can be quite surreal at times.
Sure, but you admit that it's a country club set.
I'm a black American with a graduate degree from the Northeast. Such views are as alien to me as they are to a Canadian or a Brit. The only Republicans I know are purely economically conservative and feel the GOP has been hijacked by Southern religious fundamentalists.
I'm only repeating this because that's why I believe the GOP is in long-term trouble. It's defending a version of America that no longer exists. America is becoming less white, more educated, and more urbanized. All of these things are correlated with support for the Democratic party.
To claim that "Americans" broadly agree with the fringe views in the Republican Party is to buy into their claim that they represent Americans better than the Democrats do. The numbers don't match this assertion, however.
Amen, amen, and a further amen.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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