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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Can the US Republican Party be saved?
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Mere Nick: quote:
He writes for the Village Voice.
Thank you for trying to avoid reading for comprehension. My comment was about the site, not the writer.
If the people you appear to enjoy following have no concept of the Golden Rule/Second Great Commandment, it makes them look as if they don't actually believe in society, i.e. all the other people as well as you.
This makes any comment by you suspect, however much gloss you put out.
Society only functions when we all do what we can to make it work.
And we're stuck with society, because there are too many of us to avoid that.
P.S. I also note that AWK implies that the old man has no obligation to move at all - he is allowed to be as stupid, as intransigent, as wrongly-opinionated as he likes and he doesn't have to do anything about it. The young man MUST move to agreement.
This is pretty well what the loonbag side of the GOP wants -anything they want is RIGHT and anyone else is WRONG. Hence the purpose of the OP?
[ 10. August 2014, 11:02: Message edited by: Horseman Bree ]
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Voting none of the above or leaving the vote blank on that section does make sense. It's a multi-election strategy. If a significant number of people do it in one election, it's sending that a message that if someone runs with a different platform there may be a vote to be had.
It doesn't tell you what that platform might be. And it's highly likely that the combined opinion of the people who voted 'none of the above' is an incoherent mess of opposing views.
Indeed, but it is an indication to political players that there is a growing and identifiable section of the population which is dissatisfied enough to get up off their chairs and say so. They are thus differentiated from those who couldn't be bothered or who might not know that there is an election happening. Knowing my backroom friends, 5% of spoiled or rejected ballots would send shock waves around-- that's a margin which, applied to another candidate or party, swings elections.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
The other part of "None of the above" is that the "None" winning means the guys who were on the ballot cannot run again in this election round, and a second election has to be held, in which more viable candidates are offered.
The thought that the power-hungry might be replaced would be enough to focus some serious thought about electability, and voter disaffection.
After all, there are now recalls, some of which have actually worked. This is a form of pre-emptive recall.
Certainly makes it worth voting if "None of the above" is a candidate
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
I would prefer that ballots have nothing more than the offices listed with no names or party affiliations listed. Let every vote be a write in vote. That, or some alternative that serves the same purpose.
The problem is, that leads to a splintering of the vote that yields counter-intuitive results. In a left-leaning community, for example, there might be various lefty candidates with differing qualifications/ agendas which would appeal more or less to different people, but all would be preferable, say, to a Republican candidate. But with multiple lefty candidates and only one or two GOP candidates, even in a lefty community the right wing candidate would likely be elected. For a right-wing example more compelling to you, look at the way that Ross Perot's candidacy split the conservative vote in the 1990s, leading to the election of Bill Clinton.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I am struggling to see, nowadays, what the difference is between libertarian and anarchist.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Alt Wally
Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245
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Posted
Of course it can be saved. Didn't the Democratic party look all but dead in the 1980's?
The party needs to come up with a platform that can have wider appeal, makes some changes that can account for demographic shifts, and coalesce around some common theme. There are at least three "Republican" parties right now all working against each other. A healthy dose of pragmatism would be a good idea as well. Nobody is ever going to govern and achieve implementation of their ideals.
Posts: 3684 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
I am struggling to see, nowadays, what the difference is between libertarian and anarchist.
Hair length and clothing styles.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
... There has been a growing distrust of government over the last few decades. I can't blame someone for their hesitancy in taking part.
Nope, still makes no sense. If government is untrustworthy, running away and hiding isn't going to change that. It's just granting consent for more untrustworthiness.
Now, complaining about the government is a civil right, and doesn't depend on whether you (generic) vote or not. But if you go out with friends for pizza, and say, "Oh, I'm fine with whatever you order", and when the pizza arrives, complain about the anchovies, and then tell anyone who will listen that your friends can't be trusted to even order a pizza, and then eat four slices, and then complain about how expensive the pizza is, your friends may just think you are a selfish, passive-aggressive douche.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
Of course it can be saved. Didn't the Democratic party look all but dead in the 1980's?
Actually, I don't mean in terms of winning votes but becoming less horrible and more human.
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
... There has been a growing distrust of government over the last few decades. I can't blame someone for their hesitancy in taking part.
Nope, still makes no sense. If government is untrustworthy, running away and hiding isn't going to change that. It's just granting consent for more untrustworthiness.
Now, complaining about the government is a civil right, and doesn't depend on whether you (generic) vote or not. But if you go out with friends for pizza, and say, "Oh, I'm fine with whatever you order", and when the pizza arrives, complain about the anchovies, and then tell anyone who will listen that your friends can't be trusted to even order a pizza, and then eat four slices, and then complain about how expensive the pizza is, your friends may just think you are a selfish, passive-aggressive douche.
Sums it up well.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
I am struggling to see, nowadays, what the difference is between libertarian and anarchist.
Oh, that's easy: anarchists want no government at all; libertarians want a government that is just big enough to defend the haves against the have-nots, but not big enough to manage the converse.
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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
I am struggling to see, nowadays, what the difference is between libertarian and anarchist.
There's actually been a few bills in Congress that have moved forward with a coalition of lefty Democrats and libertarian tea party Republicans. There aren't many such bills though.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
There's actually been a few bills in Congress that have moved forward with a coalition of lefty Democrats and libertarian tea party Republicans. There aren't many such bills though.
Taking a stab at this, would such things be about drug laws, decriminalization of consensual sex between adults, etc.?
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
The other part of "None of the above" is that the "None" winning means the guys who were on the ballot cannot run again in this election round, and a second election has to be held, in which more viable candidates are offered.
Where do you get this from? The article linked to in relation to a case of 'none of the above' winning said nothing remotely like this. It clearly stated that the PERSON with the most votes won.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
But if you go out with friends for pizza, and say, "Oh, I'm fine with whatever you order", and when the pizza arrives, complain about the anchovies, and then tell anyone who will listen that your friends can't be trusted to even order a pizza, and then eat four slices, and then complain about how expensive the pizza is, your friends may just think you are a selfish, passive-aggressive douche.
The problem is, I'm in the car, my friends decide we'll all go for pizza, I'm allergic to wheat and dairy. But pizza is where they take the car. So of course I don't vote on what kind, it's all indigestion. And whatever they get, anchovies or not, is unappetizing to me.
You still think I'm supposed to vote? But I can't just get out of the car, I'm stuck, there's no place to go, no way to get there on foot.
Try leaving your country and finding another that wants you when you are over 60! Nowhere to go. I guess an EU or Commonwealth citizen has lots of choices where to live, folks in USA have none.
I have friends who vote by flipping a coin in the polling booth, especially for the two dozen races you never heard mention of before being handed the ballot, is that really better than not voting?
I usually vote Green, Green hasn't any chance of winning, is that really more useful than not voting?
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
But if you go out with friends for pizza, and say, "Oh, I'm fine with whatever you order", and when the pizza arrives, complain about the anchovies, and then tell anyone who will listen that your friends can't be trusted to even order a pizza, and then eat four slices, and then complain about how expensive the pizza is, your friends may just think you are a selfish, passive-aggressive douche.
The problem is, I'm in the car, my friends decide we'll all go for pizza, I'm allergic to wheat and dairy. But pizza is where they take the car. So of course I don't vote on what kind, it's all indigestion. And whatever they get, anchovies or not, is unappetizing to me.
You still think I'm supposed to vote? But I can't just get out of the car, I'm stuck, there's no place to go, no way to get there on foot.
Again, if you speak up and say, "hey I'm allergic, can we go somewhere else?" and your friends ignore you, you at least have the right to b***h about what selfish jerks they are. But if you say nothing you have no right to complain when they buy something inedible to you.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
... Nowhere to go. I guess an EU or Commonwealth citizen has lots of choices where to live, folks in USA have none...
Well, you didn't have to leave the Empire... ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Orfeo:
quote:
Where do you get this from? The article linked to in relation to a case of 'none of the above' winning said nothing remotely like this. It clearly stated that the PERSON with the most votes won.
Sorry, O. I didn't read the article. The idea that "none of the Above" might win, and the consequences of that, have always been present in any discussion I've seen about it. Otherwise, there's no point.
Of course, that also means that the idea is not viable politically, because no politician will accept anything that might ban him from the trough of power.
But it is a fun idea to use in rattling their cages!
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Just adding that joe-ks.com appears to agree with me!
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
Part of the problem with both third parties and "none of the above" in the US is that--as we saw in the 2000 election--if you don't think either of the two biggest candidates are completely good enough, you could wind up with the worse one by splitting the vote between people you sort of mostly agree with and therefore end up with the one you'd cut off your right arm to avoid getting. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Part of the problem with both third parties and "none of the above" in the US is that--as we saw in the 2000 election--if you don't think either of the two biggest candidates are completely good enough, you could wind up with the worse one by splitting the vote between people you sort of mostly agree with and therefore end up with the one you'd cut off your right arm to avoid getting.
Yes. Green party, we're looking at you.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Hey, other countries make multiple-party systems work. Is it absolutely true that the US cannot learn from anyone else?
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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ToujoursDan
Ship's prole
# 10578
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Hey, other countries make multiple-party systems work. Is it absolutely true that the US cannot learn from anyone else?
Not sure about that. Almost 2/3rds of Canadians vote for left-of-centre parties (Liberals, NDP and Greens) but end up with a right-wing majority government.
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"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan
Posts: 3734 | From: NYC | Registered: Oct 2005
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Would political differences of that sort be best on its own Purgatory thread?
Dead horse, if my vote really matters.
quote:
Part of me wants to ask why you regard Pelosi, Reid, etc. that way but I think it would derail the point of this thread (which is pretty much predicated on the notion that, indeed, the direction of the US GOP right now is catastrophically bad).
I think the direction of both of the main parties is bad. But, you asked about the GOP.
Is the health of political parties really the kind of thing you think about between the time your head hits the pillow and you fall asleep?
The answer is: yes, anything is possible whether it matters or not.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Is it first past the post?
If so, get rid of first past the post. Not least because there isn't any 'post'.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
PS That was a crosspost. See what happens when I press send and walk away from my computer for more than 2 minutes. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
I would prefer that ballots have nothing more than the offices listed with no names or party affiliations listed. Let every vote be a write in vote. That, or some alternative that serves the same purpose.
The problem is, that leads to a splintering of the vote that yields counter-intuitive results. In a left-leaning community, for example, there might be various lefty candidates with differing qualifications/ agendas which would appeal more or less to different people, but all would be preferable, say, to a Republican candidate. But with multiple lefty candidates and only one or two GOP candidates, even in a lefty community the right wing candidate would likely be elected. For a right-wing example more compelling to you, look at the way that Ross Perot's candidacy split the conservative vote in the 1990s, leading to the election of Bill Clinton.
Single-shot voting wouldn't really be as applicable to this type of arrangement. If there are no names on the ballot then it is possible for you to wake up on the first Wednesday in November and found out you've been elected dog catcher. I would expect it to cause people to become more informed than what we have now where, what, 80% or so vote the same straight ticket every year without knowing half or two thirds of the names on the ballot.
I doubt Beelzebush the Elder lost because of Perot.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
There's actually been a few bills in Congress that have moved forward with a coalition of lefty Democrats and libertarian tea party Republicans. There aren't many such bills though.
Taking a stab at this, would such things be about drug laws, decriminalization of consensual sex between adults, etc.?
Those, government spying on us, etc. Asset forfeiture abuse should be another one if it isn't already.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Thank you for trying to avoid reading for comprehension. My comment was about the site, not the writer.
Yes, the Village Voice is a well known right wing publication. Mmm hmm.
quote:
P.S. I also note that AWK implies that the old man has no obligation to move at all - he is allowed to be as stupid, as intransigent, as wrongly-opinionated as he likes and he doesn't have to do anything about it. The young man MUST move to agreement.
This is pretty well what the loonbag side of the GOP wants -anything they want is RIGHT and anyone else is WRONG. Hence the purpose of the OP?
You sound like you're the kid who wrote the letter.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Is the health of political parties really the kind of thing you think about between the time your head hits the pillow and you fall asleep?
Absolutely. Yes, really, I do.
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Is the health of political parties really the kind of thing you think about between the time your head hits the pillow and you fall asleep?
Is that the only time you think? I don't understand this question.
[ 12. August 2014, 05:07: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
To answer the title question, in a word, No!
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Toujours Dan:
quote:
Not sure about that. Almost 2/3rds of Canadians vote for left-of-centre parties (Liberals, NDP and Greens) but end up with a right-wing majority government.
Any system throws up oddities. Compared to the Harper Tories, the old Progressive Conservative Party was socialist. The voting public is (finally) beginning to see the problem. But we had a good run for over 50 years before harper. And I note that one of the most productive periods in our government history occurred during a minority situation when Pearson was PM.
Of course, we didn't have people who tried to undermine the system consciously the way Harper has done. Hence his screaming about coalitions, which might have shown the value of some sort of cooperation. He personally cannot understand working WITH anyone, even his own people. That isn't how a country works well.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Hey, other countries make multiple-party systems work. Is it absolutely true that the US cannot learn from anyone else?
Not sure about that. Almost 2/3rds of Canadians vote for left-of-centre parties (Liberals, NDP and Greens) but end up with a right-wing majority government.
Most of Europe, for example, regards multi-party coalition government, delivered by more or less proportional systems, as the norm or at least perfectly acceptable. And we're not just talking 'Club Med' here- prosperous and stable northern Europe.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Is the health of political parties really the kind of thing you think about between the time your head hits the pillow and you fall asleep?
Is that the only time you think? I don't understand this question.
Of course not, but it is when you are thinking about the things that are still keeping you awake.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Is the health of political parties really the kind of thing you think about between the time your head hits the pillow and you fall asleep?
Absolutely. Yes, really, I do.
How about thinking about how enjoyable it would be for you to buy me a beer? Both of our lives would be better for it.
[ 12. August 2014, 14:16: Message edited by: Mere Nick ]
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
How about thinking about how enjoyable it would be for you to buy me a beer? Both of our lives would be better for it.
Beer is a good thing. I need to drink more of it.
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Is the health of political parties really the kind of thing you think about between the time your head hits the pillow and you fall asleep?
Is that the only time you think? I don't understand this question.
Of course not, but it is when you are thinking about the things that are still keeping you awake.
Unless you're sitting at the kitchen table wide awake, not even bothering to go to bed because you know you're not sleepy.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Mere Nick: Maybe I am like the kid who wrote the letter. So be it.
But I still think that the Golden Rule/Second Great Commandment involves dome form of reciprocity. Just being an old fart doesn't give you exclusive right to always being absolutely right. It is the job of younger people to point this out.
It is only in antique tribal circumstances that the old get to dominate simply because they are old.
Again, I might hint that you are deliberately missing my point by throwing useless lines.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Mere Nick: Maybe I am like the kid who wrote the letter. So be it.
Then you have some growing up to do.
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But I still think that the Golden Rule/Second Great Commandment involves dome form of reciprocity. Just being an old fart doesn't give you exclusive right to always being absolutely right.
He does have an absolute right to an opinion.
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It is the job of younger people to point this out.
His job is to love his father. His job is to grow up. Part of growing up is learning that one is not a baby anymore and doesn't always get his way. Part of growing up is learning that there will be folks who will not have the same opinions.
quote:
Again, I might hint that you are deliberately missing my point by throwing useless lines.
Tell me about it, pal.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
His job is to love his father. His job is to grow up. Part of growing up is learning that one is not a baby anymore and doesn't always get his way. Part of growing up is learning that there will be folks who will not have the same opinions.
Part of growing up - if not the major part of growing up - is realising that your father (for sons, their father especially) is not a cross between Superman and God, and his sincerely-held opinions are, on occasions, batshit crazy and are not, under any circumstances, to be entertained.
How to deal with that graciously is also part of growing up, and teenagers are particularly bad at that.
His job is to love his father despite his batshit crazy opinions, not to love him by agreeing with him.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
[qb]His job is to love his father. His job is to grow up. Part of growing up is learning that one is not a baby anymore and doesn't always get his way. Part of growing up is learning that there will be folks who will not have the same opinions.
Part of growing up - if not the major part of growing up - is realising that your father (for sons, their father especially) is not a cross between Superman and God, and his sincerely-held opinions are, on occasions, batshit crazy and are not, under any circumstances, to be entertained.
No, there's no reason for the son to have a closed mind. My father was way to the left of me and I didn't mind hearing what he had to say. He died in 1990 and there is very little I wouldn't give to hear his voice again, even just to hear a batshit opinion. The kid who wrote the letter is travelling the dark road of regret.
quote:
How to deal with that graciously is also part of growing up, and teenagers are particularly bad at that.
If he lives near his father he should make it a point to pick him up on election day, go to the polls and cancel out each others vote and then go grab a beer or coffee. It would be a good way to spend time together.
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His job is to love his father despite his batshit crazy opinions, not to love him by agreeing with him.
No one is saying he has to give up his opinions, no matter how batshit crazy his dad thinks they are. Neither should his dad. Someone's opinion is just that, an opinion.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Alt Wally
Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Actually, I don't mean in terms of winning votes but becoming less horrible and more human.
Winning votes will always be the bottom line for both parties. That's why their actual track records are so similar in the past dozen years or so.
Posts: 3684 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Hey, other countries make multiple-party systems work. Is it absolutely true that the US cannot learn from anyone else?
Not sure about that. Almost 2/3rds of Canadians vote for left-of-centre parties (Liberals, NDP and Greens) but end up with a right-wing majority government.
That would require one to accept that the Liberal Party of Canada is a left-leaning party, and for that I will require evidence.
The Liberal Party made a promise to implement a national health system in every platform since 1921 and never followed through until the NDP held a gun to their head in a minority parliament. Ditto for public pensions (with honourable mention to our forefathers, the Progressive Party).
I lived through four Red Books promising Pharmacare. Tell me again what's left-leaning about the Liberals?
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
That's why their actual track records are so similar in the past dozen years or so.
I... um... what? How so? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Both parties voted to overturn the ACA 50 times. Both parties voted against the equal pay act. Both parties voted to shut down the government twice. Both parties voted against regulating Wall Street.
No, both parties are NOT the same. This LIE keeps people in the middle from seeing that the Republican party is working to destroy the social contract and with it the middle class, whereas the Democratic party is not. Wake up, America. The false equivalence is going to destroy us.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Just filling in a blank on the humanity of blacks in the US.
What is it about blacks that whites live in such fear about them? (Obviously not all whites, but SO MANY whites)
And why is it that the police need to use such excessive force
(I write this in awareness of the absurdity of our own good docile RCMP having to use over 60 heavily-armed SWAT members to arrest a couple of men with a rifle and several women waving feathers, just 50 miles from where I live, last year. The paranoia has settled here too)
Further reading
Am I to assume that this has nothing to do with the Southern Strategy and the ongoing GOP and Tea Party shenanigans?
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree on "Dead Horses » A somewhat different position on abortion":
always remembering that pro-life* indicates "offer expires at birth" since the pro-lifers have such a high proportion of people who don't actually care about the woman in question in the first place.
Or, once born, the child. This drives me completely insane. And makes me angry and sad all at once. I've never understood this ... dichotomy between wanting to make sure that fetus is carried to term but wanting to cut things like food stamps, WIC, school lunches, and all of the things that would help the children once they're no longer in the womb.
(And of course all the shaming of unwed mothers, this weird new blocking of contraception access (f*** Hobby Lobby), making adoption by various people illegal, etc. It really comes across as something other than caring about what happens to the child. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif) )
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
(And of course all the shaming of unwed mothers, this weird new blocking of contraception access (f*** Hobby Lobby), making adoption by various people illegal, etc. It really comes across as something other than caring about what happens to the child. )
And the Hobby Lobby debacle only makes clear what has been underlying this all along.... that it was never really about abortion. If you really cared about preventing abortion, you would want more, not less, access to contraception. If you really cared about ending abortion, Republicans would have supported the Daschle amendment, even if it had a Democrat's name on it. If they really cared about abortion, Republicans would want to give women the tools and resources to carry a pregnancy to term-- things like health care, and paid maternity leave, and child care benefits. If you really wanted to end abortion, you would have put forward some sort of meaningful legislation to try to do just that.
But it was never about abortion. Republicans do not want to end abortion. They want to keep it legal, so they can continue to run on it election after election. If Democrats would call their bluff and put forth a comprehensive ban, they'd be screwed.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
There's actually been a few bills in Congress that have moved forward with a coalition of lefty Democrats and libertarian tea party Republicans. There aren't many such bills though.
Taking a stab at this, would such things be about drug laws, decriminalization of consensual sex between adults, etc.?
Reining in the NSA is one.Drug Laws, Industrial Hemp Cell Phones and more are recent attempts.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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