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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Toronto Blessing - 20 years on
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Green Mario
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# 18090
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Posted
Gamaliel - kind of snap up to a point!
I would agree that that initial experience was more God and I am not sure I chose it other than that I was worshipping God as passionately and sincerely as I could.
I have subsequently a couple of times fallen backwards into catcher's arms when being prayed for; and both times this felt more like a choice that I could have resisted and probably would have resisted by at least sitting down if there hadn't been a catcher present! (that's not to say I couldn't have resisted the first experience but it felt like I couldn't, and it happened so quickly, and I think if I could have resisted it would only have been by stopping engaging with God at that point in time very immediately).
It's certainly possible/likely that on those subsequent occasions I was responding to cues (especially the cue of knowing there was a catcher so I was ok if I fell backwards; although I would say cues rather than labelling it as manipulation). However I also think I was responding in that way because of experiencing something of God's presence while I was being prayed for and God was "doing something".
One of the reasons why think these are experiences of God's presence (apart from the obvious fact that my world view allows for it) rather than just being induced by atmosphere is that the sense of presence (not the falling over) seems qualitatively the same than experiences of God (usually less intense) that I often have when engaging with Him in less "conducive" atmospheres. I am trying to describe something very subjective here; but this is the way I perceive it.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Green Mario:
What I have understood her to mean it's more that the latter (serving the community to an extreme degree) wouldn't be possible without time spent in God's presence (which might result in different manifestations and even extreme manifestations) rather than that the spiritual manifestations are necessary or a pre-requisite for powerful or effective service. I was especially thinking about her phrase that "all fruitfulness springs from intimacy".
No, worse and worse I'm afraid!
That last phrase in particular has me looking round desperately for exits these days. Sublimation of sexual desire into religious fervour might be ok for some people, but it's not a norm, or superior, and publicising it or putting it on a pedestal is unwise.
I think that one of the most-overlooked verses in the charismatic's Bible is the one where Paul says he was not given permission to speak of his heavenly visions. Similarly, I think time spent in God's presence (whatever that means) might well involve no manifestations at all. At best it's one form of piety, and in my experience only for a "season" (that cheesy word again).
And I think that inadvertently or otherwise, such talk can lead to subtle spiritual one-upmanship. I was on the way out of NFI by the time Rambabu was telling us he prayed in tongues twelve hours a day and one of my friends was trying to equal his record, but I well remember the sense in some Toronto-style meetings that you had to hang around until the very end to get the real anointing...
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Green Mario
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# 18090
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Posted
I don't take intimacy to refer to sexual desire, sublimated or otherwise. Parent/child relationships and sibling relationships are intimate but not sexual for instance. Sexual intimacy is a subset of intimacy surely rather than being what intimacy is all about.
And since pretty much anything can lead to "one-upmanship" and unfortunately does this can't really be used as an argument against much in and of itself.
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Green Mario
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# 18090
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Posted
On the subject of words that can make people uncomfortable because they suggest sex I don't take "passion" to be synonymous with sexual desire either.
I am a Villa fan (we all have our cross to bear - although somehow I don't think that was what Jesus was talking about) but I'm not a particularly passionate one.
Anyway I don't suspect that people who are actually passionate Villa fans are sublimating their sexuality into a football club.
I would in-fact be more inclined to think they are channelling the human instinct to worship into a football club.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Green Mario:
I don't take intimacy to refer to sexual desire, sublimated or otherwise. Parent/child relationships and sibling relationships are intimate but not sexual for instance.
It cannot have escaped your notice that "Jesus is my boyfriend" worship songs are an entire sub-category of charismatic worship. Not all, and not all the ones about God's presence, but lots and lots and lots (where you can pretty much interchange "Jesus" and "my boyfriend" and come away with something about as explicit as a Katy Perry hit).
(Further discussion of which belongs in Dead Horses, by the way).
The PDF Baptist Trainfan referred to includes a description of virtually NSFW behaviour in a Toronto meeting and one regular participant in our local ones regularly gave me cause for concern in that respect. Ecstatic behaviour in some non-Christian religious practices is unabashedly linked to erotic arousal.
And again, just what "intimacy" might mean is I think quite separate from any manifestations.
quote:
And since pretty much anything can lead to "one-upmanship" and unfortunately does this can't really be used as an argument against much in and of itself.
Of course one-upmanship is everywhere, but I'm especially suspicious when the claim is, implicitly, "I have more of God than you do". I'm not saying you personally are arguing like this, but it's how you get situations, even involuntarily, in which people daren't express reservations or corrections because "touch not the Lord's anointed". That's a dangerous place to put anyone.
[ 05. September 2014, 21:28: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
I agree, Green Mario, that it is difficult to describe what we 'feel' to be the presence of God or signs or aspects of his direct activity, if I can put it that way ... his 'energies' in Orthodox terms, if you like.
I can certainly see what you are getting at and would agree that where I did - and still do - believe that was 'particularly' active or present - if we can put it that way - then it was very much on a par with other occasions when I've sensed or felt that to be the case ...
However, I do think that it is easy to mistake general euphoria and 'soulishness' for the presence of God ... but would balance that out by saying that we are soulish and creaturely creatures so we are wired to respond to things that 'move' us ... be it music, art, an affecting story or testimony or whatever else.
I would also draw a distinction between cues and outright manipulation ... but there is a very fine line at times, I think.
On the sublimation of sexual desire into religious ecstasies and so on ... that's been known and noted from time immemorial. You can find examples from all Christian traditions and from other faiths too.
It's been said - and I think Eutychus reported on this at one time - that scientists have discovered that the part of the brain which 'deals' with what we might call the spiritual and religious impulses is close to the part that deals with erotic stimuli.
I don't think that people were getting sexually aroused or turned on in any way in the TB style meetings I witnessed ... but some of the movements and gestures were certainly quite sexual at times ... not so much in the circles I moved in but in other places I saw ...
Percy was definitely of the view that sexual sublimation was going on and he cites some quite startlingly erotic rhetoric from some of the TB luminaries ...
I could go further on this one but I will leave it at that. I think there is certainly a case to answer.
Quite aside from the 'intimate' and emotional/erotic elements, one of the things that bothered me at the time - and still does - was the impression that was sometimes given that God and his power was somehow at our beck and call ... that the Holy Spirit was some kind of impersonal faith-force that could be directed and manipulated if only one could say and do the right things ...
One of the pastors I knew back then was disturbed by what appeared to be 'throwing' gestures made by some of the leaders in one of these meetings - as if they were 'throwing' the Holy Spirit for people to catch ...
You can't 'throw' the Holy Spirit. This is Almighty God we are talking about, the third Person of the Holy and Undivided Trinity ... not some kind of Jedi Knight 'force' or spiritual electric current ...
Percy goes as far as to suggest that the Wimber stuff wasn't even Trinitarian at all.
I wouldn't go that far, but would say that there was certainly a danger with the theology-lite approach that Wimber and others appeared to be taking at that time.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Green Mario:
What I have understood her to mean it's more that the latter (serving the community to an extreme degree) wouldn't be possible without time spent in God's presence (which might result in different manifestations and even extreme manifestations) rather than that the spiritual manifestations are necessary or a pre-requisite for powerful or effective service. I was especially thinking about her phrase that "all fruitfulness springs from intimacy".
The problem is that it phrasing it in such a way can end up implying that the experience is of necessity going to be of a certain level of intensity. I know all sorts of people who have served in all kinds of capacities, including incredibly sacrificially, often for decades at a time, who don't seem to have needed experiences of that kind to actually prime them to do so.
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Sure ... and, as I've done before on these boards, I often think of my Great Aunt Nell, one of 12 and confined to a couch for much of her life through severe cerebral palsy.
She never got to go to any bouncy, lively church services. She never had any special 'experiences'. Yet the vicar took her communion every week and said at her funeral that he'd learned more from her about patience and long-suffering than anything he'd been taught at seminary.
I daresay that if Christians were to wait until they had special experiences and 'anointings' then nothing much would have been done over the last 2,000 years.
I don't know anything about Heidi Baker, but I can think of plenty of people who've done some pretty good stuff without having 'soakings' or 'anointings' and all the rest of it ...
There are people out there tonight who are caring for sick relatives, dealing with abusive partners, struggling to bring up families on low incomes, dealing with physical and sexual abuse ...
Where're the whoopy-doopy experiences for them?
How about those Christians who are living as refugees from Syria, or those who've fled Mosul in the wake of the IS carnage?
Are they having wonderful ecstatic experiences?
There'll be street pastors out on the streets this evening, Salvation Army officers staffing women's refuges and homeless shelters ... all without special ecstatic experiences to enable or equip them to do so.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
Ah, the Toronto Blessing ...
I'm cautiously charismatic, I guess. And I would echo a lot of the critique here.
I read a bit of Martyn Percy's article. Not all of it (not had the time). What strikes me is his pointing out that previous Evangelical revivals (like the Wesleyan one) led, or were linked to, major societal reforms like the abolition of slavery and the emancipation of women.
Also: things like simplicity and obedience and seeking to follow the gospel bear lasting fruit, no matter what kind of package they come in.
The 'fruit' of the Toronto Blessing seems pretty damn sparse in comparison. ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
I went to a lot of meetings during the TB. Much of it I would now dismiss as auto-suggestion. Some of it was downright appalling. One of the worst TB meetings I went to, this would be in summer 1994, was at a Newfrontiers church. That meeting is forever etched on my mind because at no point whatsoever in the proceedings did anyone open a Bible. Not once. Nope, it was all about the Experience - and personally I thought the Experience was completely naff, all that rolling about on the floor and laughing like a loon. It left me cold. It was unattractive and silly.
And yet not all the meetings were appalling. I too have friends who said they received significant emotional healing during TB-style meetings and since I've had similar experiences in non-TB contexts, I'm reluctant to dismiss that as just being auto-suggestion.
Maybe it's a case of the Holy Spirit doing His work despite our silliness and religious showing-off.
I've never thrown the charismatic baby out with the charismatic bathwater. I still believe in the power of the Spirit. But I'm not convinced that everything that happens under the charismatic umbrella is of the Spirit and I am very wary of hype and manipulation.
I was never particularly into Wimber and his teaching. But I did like a lot of Vineyard worship from the late 80s and early 90s. It wasn't entirely unlike a charismatic version of Taizé, in a way. Simple worship and, yes, intimate. It sounds sweetly old-fashioned now. Still heaps better than Bethel. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Wimber was not a great influence on me but the late, great David Watson (a wise bird) very much was, and also the late John White (the psychiatrist who eventually joined Vineyard).
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I have only seen negatives from this sort of thing. But I have a godless pentacostal relative who spends their time mutually reinforcing others who belief they can somehow call the spirit into themselves. Which has always seemed so terribly self centred, and in that context, I agree with the auto-suggestion. Which comes up in many religions, cults and political movements.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Galloping Granny
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# 13814
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I had had charismatic experience well before Toronto. I encountered Toronto at Stoneleigh Bible Week 1994, doing "carpet time" right at the end of the week. We "exported" the blessing back to our church, which soon led to us splitting from our parent church and mission, becoming much more overtly charismatic in practice, and within a few years to us joining NFI.
Please, what is "carpet time"? Google gave me a carpet retailing chain and then advice for kindergarten/new entrants teachers.
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Explanations back here on page 1.
For a notorious example of the frontier between religious experience and erotic arousal, see The Ecstasy of St Teresa.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Green Mario
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# 18090
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Posted
quote:
godless Pentecostal
Is that an official denomination, Freudian slip or slur?
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Green Mario
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# 18090
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Posted
quote:
Sure ... and, as I've done before on these boards, I often think of my Great Aunt Nell, one of 12 and confined to a couch for much of her life through severe cerebral palsy.
She never got to go to any bouncy, lively church services. She never had any special 'experiences'. Yet the vicar took her communion every week and said at her funeral that he'd learned more from her about patience and long-suffering than anything he'd been taught at seminary.
I daresay that if Christians were to wait until they had special experiences and 'anointings' then nothing much would have been done over the last 2,000 years.
I don't know anything about Heidi Baker, but I can think of plenty of people who've done some pretty good stuff without having 'soakings' or 'anointings' and all the rest of it ...
There are people out there tonight who are caring for sick relatives, dealing with abusive partners, struggling to bring up families on low incomes, dealing with physical and sexual abuse ...
Where're the whoopy-doopy experiences for them?
How about those Christians who are living as refugees from Syria, or those who've fled Mosul in the wake of the IS carnage?
Are they having wonderful ecstatic experiences?
There'll be street pastors out on the streets this evening, Salvation Army officers staffing women's refuges and homeless shelters ... all without special ecstatic experiences to enable or equip them to do so.
The problem here is I am tempted to respond the tone of your post which I perceive as quite biting and sarcastic rather than your actual argument but I will try to resist.
Doing these practical things is not mutually exclusive with either spending time praying and worshipping or with having spiritual experiences and I do think both the latter help provide energy/refreshing and motivation to make the former possible.
There aren't two subsets of people like your post implies.
People who have charismatic experiences, who are of no practical use but live life with no significant problems on the one hand and people who have difficult lives, greatly bless those around them but have no spiritual experiences on the other hand.
With regard to street pastors that you pick out as an example to my knowledge in my town (and other local towns) a larger proportion of the people doing street pastoring and working with the homeless are from more charismatic churches (and that isn't any sort of boast given I would describe that church I am part of as more open evangelical rather than charismatic in the main; and is pretty underrepresented in town wide ministries like street pastoring).
That doesn't mean that people from other church backgrounds might not be more heavily represented in other places but it does again suggest that felt experiences of God's love and peace (and I am not saying either that these are exclusive to more charismatic Christians either but one of the common criticisms of charismatic Christians is that they overly focus on these experiences) and serving other people are not mutually exclusive things.
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Green Mario:
That doesn't mean that people from other church backgrounds might not be more heavily represented in other places but it does again suggest that felt experiences of God's love and peace (and I am not saying either that these are exclusive to more charismatic Christians either but one of the common criticisms of charismatic Christians is that they overly focus on these experiences) and serving other people are not mutually exclusive things.
Sure, but the Heidi Baker quote implies that intense experiences are a condition for later service. There are plenty of people - and from my own experience I could think of a number of people doing things like slum ministry - who have served equally well, without as much fanfare, whilst never really have the intense emotional experiences that she seems to imply are the driving force behind service.
So I have no arguments with what you are saying above - just picking up on the tone of the original quote.
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
If my tone was 'biting and sarcastic' - and I don't believe it was, trust me, I can be more biting and sarcastic than that - then it was simply in response to what I took to be an over-emphasis in the opposite direction.
I'm well aware that a lot of street pastors, for example, come from charismatic evangelical churches. I'm not denying that. Nor am I denying that charismatic evangelical churches produce examples of very godly, level-headed and productive/effective people (however we measure that).
The point I was making was that the bulk of humanity - and the bulk of Christians in general - don't tend to experience mountain-top spiritual experiences ... yet that doesn't seem to prevent people getting things done and achieving great things in all sorts of spheres ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Green Mario
Shipmate
# 18090
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Posted
Gamaliel - How would you define "mountain top spiritual experience" rather than "run of the mill spiritual experiences"?
In terms of dismissing the idea that greater intimacy (I am happy for suggestions of a better word here that doesn't hold unhelpful connotation if you can provide one) leads to greater fruitfulness what would you do with Jesus's parable of the vine which suggests abiding in Jesus as being the source of any fruitfulness and then later turns to talking about the disciples as friends. What does abiding in Jesus mean here?
What do you do with all the description of fellowship with God in John's writings? or Paul talking about being in Christ. Is this just something that is objectively true or is there/can there be an element of subjective experience to these things in your opinion; and if there is should this be a normative experience or quite exceptional?
If there is but you think it looks very different to anything that was seen/experienced in the TB or modern day charismatic evangelical churches can you lay out what you think it looks like?
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
'Abiding in the vine' and so on and cultivating an active and intentional 'walk with God' doesn't necessarily imply conscious experiences all the time. Sometimes the heavens will be 'as brass', at other times it'll feel that there is an 'open heaven' and all's well with the world.
If we are to use the 'intimacy' term and analogy, then in 'normal' human relationships there aren't always 'highs' all the time ... those of us who are married or have lived with a partner for a substantial period of time will be aware of that ...
I know it's an extreme example, but if we go back to my Great Aunt Nell. What chance did she have of attending euphoric and exciting church meetings?
The best she could hope for was for the vicar to turn up week by week with the sacrament.
I'm sure that was very, very real to both Nellie and the vicar - and without any great fanfare, bells and whistles.
I suppose by 'mountain top' experiences, I'm referring to spiritual highs - such as those claimed by participants in the TB.
More generally, day by day, week by week, we tend to plod on ... depending on our churchmanship we say our prayers, read our Bibles, attend services, receive communion, give alms, pray intercessionary prayers, meet in small groups to study the scriptures ... or whatever else we do ... post on internet discussion boards ...
None of these things necessarily require or involve significant 'mountain top' experiences. If we have them, great ... but it's a bonus if we do.
I'm reminded of the abbot who answered a query about what the monks did all day long. 'We get up, we fall down, we get back up again, we fall down, we ...'
I'm not as diligent as I should be but these days I use a 'daily office' as a framework for my daily devotions. The more I do this, the more I 'notice' in even the most familiar prayers and passages. Sure, sometimes I feel as if I'm on auto-pilot but at other times it fairly zips along and I feel I'm 'getting somewhere.'
Abiding in Jesus and so on isn't necessarily about being conscious of God's presence all the time.
Years ago, I read Brother Lawrence's 'The Practice of the Presence of God.' I was expecting some kind of mystical technique or other ... instead, it was all about getting on and doing the ordinary, everyday things 'as unto the Lord' ... peeling potatoes to the glory of God as it's been described.
I'm not sure that answers your question, but this is how I see things working out on the ground.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Gamaliel: Years ago, I read Brother Lawrence's 'The Practice of the Presence of God.' I was expecting some kind of mystical technique or other ... instead, it was all about getting on and doing the ordinary, everyday things 'as unto the Lord' ... peeling potatoes to the glory of God as it's been described.
We discussed this book in the Ship's Book Group last year. To be honest, I didn't like it much.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
What didn't you like about it?
I read it years and years ago and wondered what all the fuss was about. I read it more recently and it all sounded fair enough to me.
It's a bit like the late Metropolitan Anthony Bloom's well-known book on prayer. When I first read it I thought, 'Is that it?'
I read it again about five years later and it struck me as immensely profound.
I'm not saying that the Brother Lawrence book tells us all we need to know - but it does tell us something. Just get on with it, is one of the things I took from it.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Gamaliel: What didn't you like about it?
The opinion I gave about the book back then is here. In a nutshell, Brother Lawrence comes over as self-congratulatory, I don't agree with him that we should never let our minds wander, and I don't believe that sickness and pain are blessings from God.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Ok - I've read the link and can see what you didn't like about the Brother Lawrence book, LeRoc.
It's a good few years since I read it the second time and even longer since I read it the first time, so I can't remember all of the detail.
What did strike me was that there was nothing heebie-geebie about it. No big mystical 'highs'.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
On the mind-wandering thing ... I might not be remembering it properly but I seem to remember that he was simply saying that if our minds did wander, it was no big deal, we just needed to get them back on track ...
If anything, he sounded quite lenient to me ... don't beat yourself up if you mind wanders, simply get back on track and carry on.
I can't remember the suffering and punishment thing - but it's a good while since I read it.
The book was written by someone else, not by Brother Lawrence himself ... so the self-congratulatory tone might be something the author conveys not Brother Lawrence himself. Again, I can't remember picking up on anything self-congratulatory when I read it ... but as I've said, it's been a good while since I read it.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Anyhow, whatever the case, the point I'd make in all of this is one that I heard way back in 1990 and which has stayed with me ever since ...
'It doesn't matter how wonderful the meeting was, when you get up the next morning you've still got to wash your socks.'
Or, as I've tended to say rather more crudely, 'It doesn't matter how marvellous the conference was, how euphoric the worship, how inspiring the preaching ... when you've been to the toilet you still have to wipe your arse.'
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Green Mario:
In terms of dismissing the idea that greater intimacy (I am happy for suggestions of a better word here that doesn't hold unhelpful connotation if you can provide one) leads to greater fruitfulness what would you do with Jesus's parable of the vine which suggests abiding in Jesus as being the source of any fruitfulness and then later turns to talking about the disciples as friends. What does abiding in Jesus mean here?
That's a huge topic right there. I'd largely agree with Gamaliel.
There might be strong subjective experiences, but as with any lasting friendship, there's a lot more to it than that, and trying to fabricate the experience part is bound to go wrong.
Do you know the bit in Groundhog Day where the guy is desperately trying to rush through the sequence of his day to repeat the special moment of intimacy with his colleague? It doesn't work like that!
To its credit, I'm pretty sure the following hymn was in a Toronto worship book (probably with a new tune):
quote:
My hope is built on nothing less
Than Jesus Christ, my righteousness
I dare not trust the sweetest frame
But wholly lean on Jesus' name
I always saw Toronto as a 'season'. As the seasons of the world and of our lives change, you have to learn to abide in Jesus in different ways.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Green Mario
Shipmate
# 18090
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Posted
quote:
It's a bit like the late Metropolitan Anthony Bloom's well-known book on prayer. When I first read it I thought, 'Is that it?'
Off-topic but I have recently been thinking I would like to understand a bit more about the orthodox practice of prayer and see if there would be ways I could benefit from that. I assume from what you say above that Bloom might be a good writer to start with?
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I've not read a great deal of Orthodox material on prayer - although I've read a fair bit of Orthodox theology.
Bloom would be the place to start, though, most certainly.
The interesting thing about Bloom is that he certainly had 'mountain-top' experiences himself but his whole approach is very down-to-earth for all that. Simply persist.
If you can cope with a certain amount of apophaticity if that's the right word ... then his books are a good introduction to the Orthodox approach to prayer.
I recently met some of his 'disciples' and they said that whilst the outward appearance of the man was generally serene there was a heck of an internal battle going on ... a continual inner struggle.
That's one of the things that bugs me about the TB thing ... it generally offered a pain-free, struggle free, asceticism free approach ... 'it's all a breeze, people!'
'City on a Beach' and all that.
I'm not saying that we should all flagellate ourselves and sit on spiky poles ... but Hawaiian shirts and cheesy grins isn't necessarily where it's at either.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Green Mario:
What do you do with all the description of fellowship with God in John's writings? or Paul talking about being in Christ. Is this just something that is objectively true or is there/can there be an element of subjective experience to these things in your opinion; and if there is should this be a normative experience or quite exceptional?
I think that for many people it can be something that is experienced largely objectively for large periods of time - or 'worse', there are a fairly significant number of missionaries who have experienced what can only be described as a dark night of the soul - albeit one that continued for decades. There's the minister I know who has had a huge impact on other ministers, yet whose own ministry seems to have been mired in mediocrity and who confesses that he has been often confused as to why God has put him in the place he has.
The idea that our searching after God is always met with some kind of subjective intimacy is rather blown away by the witness of books like Job, or large parts of the Psalms.
These things are to be valued - but insisting on them threatens to create a new Law that is more tyrannical than the first one.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Thinking about the Orthodox approach for a moment ... it's interesting that the Eastern Christian tradition doesn't put a great deal of emphasis on 'altered states of consciousness' as such ... it's more an issue of a sharpening or a quickening of the spiritual senses as it were.
The 'hesychasm' thing may sound rather hypnotic but it's not meant to induce trances and so on.
I can't remember which Orthodox writer/theologian said that 'the glory of God is a human being fully alive' - but that's the nub of it, I think.
We are to be fully human.
Barking and clucking and rolling on the floor doesn't necessarily add to that and may even detract from it ...
In some TB circles some of the more 'bestial' manifestations were seen as symbolic in some way - the roar of the Lion of the Tribe of Judah etc.
My brother-in-law did observe someone adopt some kind of 'birdlike' position and demeanour in a wrapt kind of way that seemed to suggest a dove-like sense of peace ... but generally speaking I'm not so sure that this kind of behaviour lent itself to 'interpretation' in that kind of 'prophetic' way ...
I'm not ruling that out ... but it would be pretty unusual I would suggest.
'Intimacy' with God needn't imply euphoric experiences necessarily ... sometimes it's simply hard-graft.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
Gamaliel, I'm very disappointed with you. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
How could you start this thread now, when I'm not going to be able to give much attention to it for about three weeks? There's already been so much written that I want to respond to. But no time at the moment... ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Well, reading the minds of people I've never met in real life is not one of my accomplishments, Goperryrevs ...
I obviously didn't spend long enough 'marinading' in the Spirit ...
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
I'm happy to lay off this topic for a bit and come back to it when you've had your say whenever you're able to do so.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Aaarggh ... getting people's names muddled up is one of my many failings.
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
Apologies Oscar the Grouch, for some reason I thought you were Goperryrevs.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Falling on the floor, plus (optional) rolling around on it laughing/ roaring
So the Toronto Blessing was the original ROTFLMAO?
I would point out that this acronym was in use prior to the arrival of the web, and of the Toronto Airport blessing. Although I would be very surprised if anybody involved at the beginning of the Toronto events was using the net back in the 80's.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
It's because Goperryrevs posted on the Cwmbran thread and I was flitting between the two.
Still, no excuse.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
Ha ha! Well done, Gamaliel. You've given me a good laugh.
I don't wanna stop the discussion, but will reserve the right to resurrect it when I have a proper chance to write seriously (probably at the end of Sept).
I'm sure everyone would love to hear my words of wisdom and experience on this...
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
We wait with baited breath ...
It'd be good to hear your take on this one, Oscar, I do enjoy your posts.
I'd also be interested in hearing from people with experience of more recent developments ie. those for whom it led to further revivalist activity ... rather than marking a tipping point towards the exit as it were ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520
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Posted
I am beginning to wonder what hole I was down when all this was happening - it appears to have passed me by almost completely.
I can just about recall hearing something of the Toronto Phenomenon at the time, and being rather worried by it.
Cards on the table; I am currently a Lay Minister (Reader) in the CinW. At the time of Toronto, I had not long entered the Anglican setup and was in training for my current role. I live on the charismatic-evangelical wing of the church (OK, so you can start sticking your labels on now, if it will help you ) so speaking in tongues and the like were well within my experience, but barking like a dog or roaring like a lion? That was a different matter.
I think my main objection was that I could see no useful purpose to it, other than entertainment for a few. My perennial question was always, "But what is it doing for anybody outside the church?" - the answer at the time appeared to be, "Precious little" - which made me rather sceptical of the proposition that this was a move of God's Spirit.
I remain sceptical of dramatic phenomena. More cards on the table; I am NYFO - Not Yet Fallen Over. I have never done carpet time. This may well be because I fail to see the point. Yet I use tongues in prayer as a regular part of worship. You may draw what conclusions you wish - I won't take much notice (again, !).
I firmly believe that God speaks to His people through His Spirit, even today. What I find more difficult to believe is that this has to include weird phenomena like those associated with Toronto. I believe it was Adrian Plass who satirised the phenomenon, calling his version of it the "Taiwanese Tickle". His (fictional) Elder essentially shrugged his shoulders at it and remarked that, "It will pass".
I am always disturbed when I see the Holy Spirit being invoked as a form of entertainment. To my mind, there was a sizeable element of this tied up in Toronto, at least once it had moved elsewhere. As regards long-term 'fruit', I remain unconvinced.
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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
Posts: 1101 | From: The catbox | Registered: Jan 2009
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I think your post raises a point that needs making, Darllenwr, and that is that not all of charismaticdom succumbed to the TB thing ...
It was certainly possible to be charismatic in the mid-1990s and to have avoided it completely.
That said, most of the outfits who would have considered themselves to have been where things were 'at' were heavily influenced by it.
Where I was, the TB thing didn't last very long ... it sort of came and went and we simply picked ourselves up and got on with business as usual.
I also know of places where it was hardly ever mentioned thereafter ... a bit like an embarrassing incident on a first date ...
My experience of the charismatic scene in general is that - on the whole - it isn't that good at reflection and cogitation ... there wasn't a great deal of effort put into trying to understand what had gone on or to put it into some kind of theological context or framework ... still less to actually try to evaluate whether there'd been any fruit and what the purpose of the whole thing was.
It's difficult to avoid the conclusion that it was a passing fad ... or, rather, the boiling over and culmination of heightened expectations ... rather like a saucepan of milk boiling over. Once the hot froth sizzles down the sides, the milk settles back down once you lower the heat.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Lord Pontivillian
Shipmate
# 14308
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Posted
Darllenwr has just come and mentioned that Paul mentions that services out to be done in an orderly fashion, how some of the wackier elements of TB fit in with this he was not quite so sure. He also noted that the Celts thought of the Wild Goose as a representation of the Holy Spirit, as they cause chaos and shit when they turn up!
[ 08. September 2014, 21:53: Message edited by: Lord Pontivillian ]
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The Church in Wales is Ancient, Catholic and Deformed - Typo found in old catechism.
Posts: 665 | From: Horsham | Registered: Nov 2008
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
I also very happily missed out on the Toronto Blessing - fair enough, I'm a hands-down for coffee MotR Anglican, but while I was university, friends who were of the more charismatic persuasion where caught up in with it/in it.
I don't know: it always seemed like a fringe thing that was viewed as slightly odd and not at all necessary. The kind of thing that if you'd told your mum about, she'd have said "That's nice, dear" before offering you another biscuit.
And twenty years later, I don't believe I've missed out on anything extraordinary. What I've read here simply confirms that.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Pontivillian:
Darllenwr has just come and mentioned that Paul mentions that services out to be done in an orderly fashion, how some of the wackier elements of TB fit in with this he was not quite so sure.
That is easy. Well before Toronto, John Wimber used to say the emphasis should not be on the "decently and in order" but on the first part of the verse: "let ALL things be done"!
(He would then go on to back this up by saying that the place where everything was really decent and in order was a cemetery...)
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
(He would then go on to back this up by saying that the place where everything was really decent and in order was a cemetery...)
Which is nonsense of course.
But 'decent and in order' is a very cultural thing.
I was brought up in South Africa and my Dad was a Minister for black churches in Soweto. The services were often total chaos with translations into seven languages and kids everywhere, often with nowhere to sit and people hanging in at the windows. Orderly they were not! But they were wonderful and the amout of community good those churches did was uncountable.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
I think somewhere up-thread somebody pointed out that there was a pattern to TB meetings / worship. I could rehearse an order of service giving almost a minute-by-minute programme! Order, though not IMO, decent. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Anecdotally there were reports of Communion being "pulled" in favour of "ministry time". May not be true, though.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Anecdotally there were reports of Communion being "pulled" in favour of "ministry time". May not be true, though.
This just shows how impossible it is to generalise.
This could well have happened somewhere, but by no means everywhere.
I think what happened, and what has happened since, has varied widely depending on the ecclesiastical and theological environment in which the TB landed, as well as how the leadership addressed it.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
I think it is a good point made upthread that not all of the charismatic/ Pentecostal tradition entered into the TB; indeed many congregations of that persuasion split over the thing whilst others rejected it outright. This was of course more prevalent in the older Pentie congos (in part I suspect for much the same reason as some of them rejected the charismatic movement 20-30 years earlier).
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Anecdotally there were reports of Communion being "pulled" in favour of "ministry time". May not be true, though.
It was true in certain circles - in general it wasn't a huge consideration as most of these congregations didn't have communion that frequently to start with.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
I think the different perceptions that some of us have ended up also depend on where we were at the time.
Would I be right that quite a lot of those posting here were in positions of Christian leadership?
As I said before, I was one of the little people in the plastic bucket seats and very much not a “leader”. I was never as convinced about the whole thing as many of the “leaders” seemed to be. I think a lot of us weren’t but we were nervous about saying so for being considered lukewarm or resisting the Spirit or something.
Actually, I think one of the biggest positives of the whole thing for me was that it forced me back to the Bible. I remember at a CU houseparty which upset and frightened people, one girl getting her big-chunky-Bible-with-enormous-concordance out and asking for chapter and verse for the people lying on the floor and the rest. She wasn’t being shirty, she genuinely wanted to know, from the point of view of “Maybe this is in the Bible and I’ve missed it. If so, I will happily go along with it. But I want to see where it is in the Bible.”
In that respect it was good for me. I admit to being a rather naďve and gullible person at times (especially at that stage in my life when I was younger and of fairly recent conversion) and there have been occasions when I accepted stuff just because Christians leaders told it was so. But in the end I wasn’t satisfied until I had really studied the Bible for myself to find out what it says about the Holy Spirit to the best of my understanding (FWIW, I’m still more or less a Pentecostal, but have severe reservations about extreme charismatic phenomena.)
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
As I said before, I was one of the little people in the plastic bucket seats and very much not a “leader”.
I was a leader and indeed still am some sort of a one, but I have never had anything other than a plastic bucket seat. This is clearly where I've been going wrong all these years.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
I think the different perceptions that some of us have ended up also depend on where we were at the time.
Would I be right that quite a lot of those posting here were in positions of Christian leadership?
I wasn't, I generally vacillated between feeling the effects of pressure to get involved in what was going on, and being a one man awkward squad.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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