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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Toronto Blessing - 20 years on
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
I was in congregational leadership of a Pentecostal church at the time and also a housegroup leader. We didn't do plastic...
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Besides, I thought the whole point of the TB was to clear the chairs/pews away ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I wasn't a leader but at times I had pretensions and delusions that I might be ...
So, part of the TB thing for me was, 'Aha! I've got the anointing now ... my gifts and ministry will at long last be recognised ...'
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
I quickly came to the conclusion, though, that this wasn't going to happen nor was it desirable - at least not in that kind of context.
I think the 'context' comes into this, as ever. The 'shape' that the TB did seem to depend on the underlying shape and tendency/inclination of those fellowships that went along with it.
The reaction against it from some of the Pentecostals was different, I think, from their initial reaction against the charismatic movement in the older denominations. The thing that bothered a lot of the older style Pentecostals was that tongues weren't very much in evidence and also - as La Vie en Rouge has indicated with her CU friend - there didn't seem to be a great deal of scriptural evidence for some of the manifestations ...
The Penties do tend to proof-text, but at least they do go to the scriptures to test things.
Dr Andrew Walker the sociologist/theologian came from an Elim Pentecostal background and always maintained that the older school Penties weren't generally as easily taken in by fads and fancies as the later, more middle-class charismatics.
I wouldn't say that was always the case - I can think of examples where the opposite has been true - but as a general principle I think it holds water.
As for the Wild Goose and chaos, shitting everywhere ... well, yes, the Celts did use the Wild Goose as a symbol of the Holy Spirit and that was to do with freedom to fly hither and yon and so on ... but I'm not sure they'd have used the idea of the Holy Spirit 'turning up' or 'showing up' in quite the same way ...
Sure, the older traditions have the 'epiclesis' in the Eucharist but that doesn't mean that they are directing God the Holy Spirit as some kind of impersonal faith-force ... which is what I saw happen in some TB circles ... as if the Holy Spirit were some kind of vibe or power that could be thrown and tossed around a room ... like some kind of party-game ...
Grrr ...
![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
As for the decently and in order thing - as time went on there was very much a TB liturgy - as Mark Wuntoo has indicated. You could pretty much set your watch by what was going to happen and when.
It is relatively easy to direct and induce these things in a congregation once they've got going. Heck, even I could do it and I wasn't officially on the leadership team ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
It was a mixture, I think. I remember seeing a VHS tape from Toronto, a lot of which struck me as quite weird, but there was one remarkable reconciliation between a German pastor and a very hurting Jewish man whose family had been decimated by WW2.
Never went myself; I know three church leaders who went there knackered and came back revived. For all I know there may have been movement in the reverse direction as well.
I've only heard John Arnott speak once (in the UK) and liked what he had to say. Good intro, including the phrase "People have asked me why I'm into this stuff when its so controversial and reputation-damaging. These days I tend to respond that Carol and I no longer have any reputation to lose". Then he spoke wisely and well about estranged family relationships, an issue which was a source of great pain to me at the time. I went forward for prayer, something changed in me and I was greatly helped in taking positive steps to restore good family relationships.
Of course I've read all the other stuff, and have my own reservations about the potential for manipulation and subsequent disillusionment. One swallow does not make a summer.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
being a one man awkward squad.
Two actually ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
On the context thing, ExclamationMark, I think, has already alluded to the Decade of Evangelism and so on. The late '80s/early '90s was a time where revivalist expectations had been ratcheted up to some extent:
- By the growth of the 'new churches' - and although much of that growth was by transfer there were certainly new converts around too.
- By the rise of Spring Harvest and initiatives like the JIM (Jesus in Me) campaign.
- There'd been the 'March for Jesus' thing and also the 'From Minus to Plus' mass mailing campaign by Reinhard Bonkke.
Some of these - Decade of Evangelism, JIM and Minus to Plus - were seen as having failed to deliver the promised results ... so when the TB thing came along many people thought, 'Well, we've tried everything else, now this is God's way ...'
Whilst I think there is evidence for personal renewal in all of this - and I know people who say that they benefitted greatly, the impact in terms of evangelism was pretty negligible.
Indeed, to some extent it was quite a turn-off ... we lost a number of new converts who were freaked out by the whole thing.
Like at any other time, there was a mix of good, bad and indifferent.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Some of these - Decade of Evangelism, JIM and Minus to Plus - were seen as having failed to deliver the promised results ... so when the TB thing came along many people thought, 'Well, we've tried everything else, now this is God's way ...'
There was also an extent to which it was seen as a fulfillment of earlier prophecies (this was the case in some of the traditional Pentecostal denominations at the time) with the obvious parallels being drawn to Wesley, Whitfield (and in traditional circles Smith Wigglesworth).
quote:
Indeed, to some extent it was quite a turn-off ... we lost a number of new converts who were freaked out by the whole thing.
I think what it did for other people was promote the idea of a kind of charismatic pilgrimage (in the Lourdes sense) plus the idea that manifestations didn't have to be obviously useful or spiritual - so when the whole gold dust thing started at the tail end of the TB, even the EA did an article on it.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
[Tangent]
Wild Goose as a sign of the Holy Spirit in the Celtic Church sounds to me very much like a George Macleodism. I forget where the seed of doubt was sown for me but when you know of others then this comes far too easily.
However, a several of things rather suggest this. I cannot trace a scholarly reference to this prior to 1990 (it was in use by the Iona Community prior to this date).
Another is the role of Wild Geese in Scotland. One of my oddities is actually I have spent time studying wild geese. Firstly they are largely winter birds coming in around mid-September. Large flocks of them inhabit estuary salt water marshes and open fields. I am trying to think of a native wild goose that is here all year round, (Canada Geese are of course introduced). Checked my book on Scottish birds and only a small number of Grey lags fall into that category. They did not tend to hang around the dwellings of people. What they would have been for the Celts that lived near them is a good source of meat, when food was scarce. Especially as I suspect they tend to move later in the winter from the estuary to the farmland; this is the behaviour of Barnacle Geese I just cannot speak for other species. So the idea they bring mess and chaos is not I think how the Celts would have seen it. Harbingers of winter, particularly birds that fly high over head honking as winter starts, and a source of meat in tough times are far more likely concepts.
Finally, most intriguing, without a doubt the Celts did use the dove. The Saint of the isle of Iona is Columba, translated from the latin as "Dove" and he is also known as "Columcille" or "Dove of the Church".
[/tangent]
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Twangist
Shipmate
# 16208
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Posted
I've been pondering what to post for a while.
My initial plan was to write a list of good things vs bad things (I know x people who became Xtians (and still are)/ x people who (credibly) say their lives were changed to some extent/ these ministries started vs x people put off / church splits/ nutters becoming more famous etc) but on reflection Toronto can't be presumed, let alone proved to have causality.
I suspect that Toronto was in some ways a catalyst: my friends would probably have become believers, Eutychus would have ended up serving the poor, and the church down the road would have disbanded anyway but not as swiftly or suddenly.
The TB for me seems to have been about a particularly experiential and participatory expression of the faith. Long term healthy spirituality needs to combine the objective and subjective and involve elements of both outward looking sacrificial service and and inward looking care for oneself. Therefore for some the TB was a corrective season that fuelled positive things on an ongoing basis. For others .....
I would agree that it was a springboard for the expansion of Alpha (and strangely thus also Emmaus and Xtianity Explored).
I wonder if the immediacy of at all made it in some ways a quite postmodern expression of Church?
It certainly “revived” the Asuza St model of touristic, marketable reivialism (yes, Bent Toddly I'm looking at you).
On a very subjective personal level I still expect God to do stuff (how ever you define that )if I pray for/with someone.
I'm also disappointed that genuine revival hasn't yet broken out in the UK.....
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JJ
SDG
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Posts: 604 | From: Devon | Registered: Feb 2011
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twangist:
I suspect that Toronto was in some ways a catalyst: my friends would probably have become believers, Eutychus would have ended up serving the poor, and the church down the road would have disbanded anyway but not as swiftly or suddenly.
Ah, I don't think I've ever agreed so heartily about something you've posted ![[Smile]](smile.gif) quote:
I'm also disappointed that genuine revival hasn't yet broken out in the UK.....
This, on the other hand...
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
It always puzzled me how a bunch of people who were already Christians falling over or laughing together in a room was supposed to usher in revival.
One of the most telling and wince-inducing things about Martyn Percy's critique of the Toronto Airport Vineyard Fellowship was that whilst they enjoyed world-wide fame among the charismatic Christian constituency, hardly anyone in Toronto itself had heard of them ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
The Azusa Street 'marketable' model pre-dates Azusa Street.
Azusa Street itself was triggered/influenced by accounts of the Welsh Revival.
The Cane Ridge Revivals in Kentucky in the early 1800s also spawned a host of imitators. Lorenzo Dow, an eccentric US frontiers preacher helped initiate the first UK 'camp meetings' at Mow Cop in 1806 ... just a few miles from where I'm sitting ... although without the same kind of holy rollerin' - at least, not initially.
Revivalism was certainly being 'manufactured' and marketed as a commodity by the 1830s ... followers of Finney had manuals telling them how to go about inducing revival ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
And - while it may not have been "manufactured" - the early Pentecostal movement spread from Azusa Street to Norway (TB Barratt) and thus to England (AA Boddy).
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520
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Posted
In response to La Vie en rouge, at the time that TB was prevalent, I was in that in-between stage where I was neither fish nor fowl. I was a Reader-in-training, which meant that some people might have considered me a leader of some sort, but plenty more would not. Which is pretty much the case to this day.
From my own perspective, I reckon you are only a leader if people are following you. As far as I am aware, I have no followers, ergo I am not a leader.
I suppose that being buried in an Anglican church in the darkest Welsh Valleys largely protected me from the wilder excesses of Toronto - various stories filtered through but, personally, I saw none of it. I cannot recall there being any visible impact in this valley, though with my Reader training and a young son as well, I had a lot on my mind at the time, so may have missed what was going on.
A few years ago, I had occasion to attend a baptism at one of the more 'excessive' Pentecostal churches locally (Tram Road, Pontllanffraith). In fairness, it is probably not entirely unbiased of me to describe the church in this fashion - it is probably more correct to say that it didn't appeal to me. On the other hand, a Pentecostal friend of mine who also attended a service there (his daughter's baptism) remarked that it was louder than any heavy metal concert he had ever attended and the only time he had attended church and had his ears bleeding afterwards! You may draw your own conclusions. However, whilst it may be loud there were no evidences of the sort of activity that I associated with TB, albeit some 10 years after the events. It tends to suggest that Toronto did not leave much of a legacy around here.
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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
Posts: 1101 | From: The catbox | Registered: Jan 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Pontivillian:
Darllenwr has just come and mentioned that Paul mentions that services out to be done in an orderly fashion, how some of the wackier elements of TB fit in with this he was not quite so sure. He also noted that the Celts thought of the Wild Goose as a representation of the Holy Spirit, as they cause chaos and shit when they turn up!
Yes well, there was this sudden lurch towards "Celtic Christianity" just after Toronto peaked. Everyone it seemed was singing the praises of their cows' teats.
Roy Searle et al were the big cheeses (ewe's milk of course) at various national Baptist gatherings.
Most of that was pretty daft too.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Darllenwr:
I am beginning to wonder what hole I was down when all this was happening - it appears to have passed me by almost completely.
I can just about recall hearing something of the Toronto Phenomenon at the time, and being rather worried by it.
Cards on the table; I am currently a Lay Minister (Reader) in the CinW. At the time of Toronto, I had not long entered the Anglican setup and was in training for my current role. I live on the charismatic-evangelical wing of the church (OK, so you can start sticking your labels on now, if it will help you ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) ) so speaking in tongues and the like were well within my experience, but barking like a dog or roaring like a lion? That was a different matter.
I think my main objection was that I could see no useful purpose to it, other than entertainment for a few. My perennial question was always, "But what is it doing for anybody outside the church?" - the answer at the time appeared to be, "Precious little" - which made me rather sceptical of the proposition that this was a move of God's Spirit.
I remain sceptical of dramatic phenomena. More cards on the table; I am NYFO - Not Yet Fallen Over. I have never done carpet time. This may well be because I fail to see the point. Yet I use tongues in prayer as a regular part of worship. You may draw what conclusions you wish - I won't take much notice (again, !).
I firmly believe that God speaks to His people through His Spirit, even today. What I find more difficult to believe is that this has to include weird phenomena like those associated with Toronto. I believe it was Adrian Plass who satirised the phenomenon, calling his version of it the "Taiwanese Tickle". His (fictional) Elder essentially shrugged his shoulders at it and remarked that, "It will pass".
I am always disturbed when I see the Holy Spirit being invoked as a form of entertainment. To my mind, there was a sizeable element of this tied up in Toronto, at least once it had moved elsewhere. As regards long-term 'fruit', I remain unconvinced.
Yep that pretty much sums up my views and position too - and yes I was involved as a servant leader at the time.
Incidently Toronto and its effects were still rumbling on in Markland when I arrived there in 2000. Split over Toronto affecting every major church in the little town was very very recent history: 10 years later the newly formed church was itself history.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Twangist
Shipmate
# 16208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Twangist:
I suspect that Toronto was in some ways a catalyst: my friends would probably have become believers, Eutychus would have ended up serving the poor, and the church down the road would have disbanded anyway but not as swiftly or suddenly.
Ah, I don't think I've ever agreed so heartily about something you've posted quote:
I'm also disappointed that genuine revival hasn't yet broken out in the UK.....
This, on the other hand...
point 1 - thanks (I think)
point 2 - for "revival" read lots/some/more than a few people becoming Xtians than do at present.
I do think that the TB (as various charismatic trends do) did stoke expectiations which were unfulfilled
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JJ
SDG
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Posts: 604 | From: Devon | Registered: Feb 2011
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Twangist
Shipmate
# 16208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
It always puzzled me how a bunch of people who were already Christians falling over or laughing together in a room was supposed to usher in revival.
One of the most telling and wince-inducing things about Martyn Percy's critique of the Toronto Airport Vineyard Fellowship was that whilst they enjoyed world-wide fame among the charismatic Christian constituency, hardly anyone in Toronto itself had heard of them ...
Very true
Does show how much Xtianity (in various flavours) can become an often irrelevant sub-culture rather than a genuine counter-culture.
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JJ
SDG
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Posts: 604 | From: Devon | Registered: Feb 2011
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twangist:
point 2 - for "revival" read lots/some/more than a few people becoming Xtians than do at present.
What? That's creative redefinition before you've even started!
According to John White in When the Spirit comes with power (p32-33), "revival" means: quote:
1) First, converted and unconverted men, women and children, stunned by a vision both of God's holiness and his mercy, are awakened in large numbers to repentance, faith and worship.
2) Second, God's power is manifest in human lives in ways no psychological or sociological laws can explain adequately.
3) Third, the community as a whole becomes aware of what is happening, many perceiving the movement as a threat to existing institutions.
4) Fourth, some men and women exhibit unusual physical and emotional manifestations. These create controversy.
5) Fifth, some revival Christians behave in an immature and impulsive way, while others fall into sin. In this was the revival appears to be a strange blend of godly and ungodly influences, of displays of divine power and of human weakness.
6) Sixth, wherever the revival is extensive enough to have national impact, sociopolitical reform follows over the succeeding century.
We could debate whether that's a good definition or indeed a desirable state of affairs, but I think it's a bit more than a few more people becoming Christians, innit?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Twangist
Shipmate
# 16208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The Azusa Street 'marketable' model pre-dates Azusa Street.
Azusa Street itself was triggered/influenced by accounts of the Welsh Revival.
The Cane Ridge Revivals in Kentucky in the early 1800s also spawned a host of imitators. Lorenzo Dow, an eccentric US frontiers preacher helped initiate the first UK 'camp meetings' at Mow Cop in 1806 ... just a few miles from where I'm sitting ... although without the same kind of holy rollerin' - at least, not initially.
Revivalism was certainly being 'manufactured' and marketed as a commodity by the 1830s ... followers of Finney had manuals telling them how to go about inducing revival ...
Azusa is a convient C20th label and whilst it inspired church planting and missionary work to a far greater extent than Toronto it's focus was, like Toronto, on bringing Xtians into a greater experience of God.
Finney (give an American the gospel and he'll fix it as I once heared (an American) reformed pastor say ) et al were aiming to convert the unconverted.
Having been brought up in Essex I have a soft spot for the tale that in days of yore when the East Anglian Puritans felt at a low ebb spiritually they would visit the Lectures and Sermons of "Roaring" Rogers saying "let us fetch fire from Dedham".
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JJ
SDG
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Posts: 604 | From: Devon | Registered: Feb 2011
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Twangist
Shipmate
# 16208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Twangist:
point 2 - for "revival" read lots/some/more than a few people becoming Xtians than do at present.
What? That's creative redefinition before you've even started!
According to John White in When the Spirit comes with power (p32-33), "revival" means: quote:
1) First, converted and unconverted men, women and children, stunned by a vision both of God's holiness and his mercy, are awakened in large numbers to repentance, faith and worship.
2) Second, God's power is manifest in human lives in ways no psychological or sociological laws can explain adequately.
3) Third, the community as a whole becomes aware of what is happening, many perceiving the movement as a threat to existing institutions.
4) Fourth, some men and women exhibit unusual physical and emotional manifestations. These create controversy.
5) Fifth, some revival Christians behave in an immature and impulsive way, while others fall into sin. In this was the revival appears to be a strange blend of godly and ungodly influences, of displays of divine power and of human weakness.
6) Sixth, wherever the revival is extensive enough to have national impact, sociopolitical reform follows over the succeeding century.
We could debate whether that's a good definition or indeed a desirable state of affairs, but I think it's a bit more than a few more people becoming Christians, innit?
a few more conversions would be a good start and a desirable state of affairs
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JJ
SDG
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Posts: 604 | From: Devon | Registered: Feb 2011
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twangist:
a few more conversions would be a good start and a desirable state of affairs
I have no argument with that.
Where I do have a problem is when people prophesy or announce a revival and then retrospectively redefine "revival" as something else, as Paul Cain did in 1990 about the UK (see here).
It is very difficult not to fall into this trap if revival is part of everyday church discourse, especially if revival doesn't actually show up.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Twangist
Shipmate
# 16208
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Posted
That's the point where, as Gamaliel observes, a short memory is required (or a healthy dose of cynicism).
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JJ
SDG
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Posts: 604 | From: Devon | Registered: Feb 2011
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Yes, but cynicism to any degree is precisely the sort of attitude that is frowned upon in such circles. One is (or was) supposed to "believe the best" and "not make doctrines out of disappointments" ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Twangist
Shipmate
# 16208
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Posted
Holy cynicism?
So much for being as wise as serpents, part of being discerning (the great neglected gift of the Spirit as per Tom Smail if I recall) is spotting and rejecting the tosh.
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JJ
SDG
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Posts: 604 | From: Devon | Registered: Feb 2011
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Yes indeed.
The tosh can take over though. The more widespread it gets and the more people sign up for it the harder it is to shout that the Emperor has no clothes ...
I'd also suggest that we need a dose of reality and a sense of historical perspective when looking at past revivals. I grew up in South Wales and am all too familiar with a kind of rose-tinted spectacles view of the revivalist past.
A similar thing happens with the 'Celtic Christianity' that ExclamationMark has mentioned.
Post TB, people were looking for something more 'grounded' and although the so-called 'Celtic' thing had been around for a while, this seemed like a good route to take as it could fit - or be squeezed - into a largely anabaptist (small a) paradigm.
I think a lot of that was silly too.
Again, little sense of a genuine historical perspective.
And in a commodified, late capitalist religious paradigm all these things end up being 'marketed' and branded and labelled and ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Arminian
Shipmate
# 16607
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Posted
On the three occasions I saw John and Carol Arnott nothing particularly outrageous was happening. They seemed to be genuinely nice people not in it for the money. Didn't find anything to object to in the sermons either. Can't say the same for a lot of other charismatic 'stars' who don't have to speak for long before you find a psychological con job going on to open your wallet...
The only time I saw someone howling was actually between meetings whilst he was sat with a friend on his own praying. The next day he looked like a different person, more 'whole' and relaxed. None of the ministry team or Arnotts were about. Was it God, was it psychology at play ? Who knows...
Posts: 157 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2011
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
And in a commodified, late capitalist religious paradigm all these things end up being 'marketed' and branded and labelled and ...
Church has become a product and we're caught up the advertisers "new is good: old is bad" syndrome. Hence Celtic, bethel, fire tunnels, cell church and all that garbage.
I just wonder how long it will be before the "new wine and old wineskins" analogies are dragged out again.
What we've lost is (firstly) a desire for the heart of the Christian faith (love, holiness, grace and sacrifice) because we're so afraid of being thought of as binary or judgemental and we don't want to count the personal cost. Then we've perhaps lost even the ability to discover the heart of the Christian faith as we drifted so far from the foundations of scripture, tradition and reason. Many churches will do anything to get bums on seats and quids in the bag, even to the extent of not talking about God. (I know churches within a few miles from where I am who actively brag about that).
All we've ended up with is church and denominations who are afraid to state what they believe, sacred to admit that they don't have the answers for some of the questions (which they pretend they do know) and a society that frankly is not bothered about the church at all because we have failed to deliver for them at a time of need. We're way too busy explaining arcane practices, wearing weird clothes and marginalising 51% of the population.
If we make a stand on something then at least we'll go down fighting for truth. If we don't stand for anything then we'll fall for everything.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
"Fire tunnels" - that's a new one for me. If this is what is meant, then it sounds rather like a charismatic version of "Oranges and Lemons" I used to play as a child (without the "chopper to chop off your head"!)
I largely agree with EM except to say that we do live in an age where symbol and the visual may (like it or not) communicate better than words, hence this kind of multikinesthetic activity has its place. That is, of course, assuming that the theology behind it isn't loopy or pretentious!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
I quite like the wierd clothes ...
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
More seriously, I think it goes beyond churchmanship and 'style'. I well remember a friend I was trying to 'witness' to when I was keen new convert telling me that church was irrelevant because it was all fousty and old-fashioned with dirge-like tunes and men in black etc etc...
When I told him that there were churches around with guitars and joyful happy-clappy music he said, 'That's no good either, it frightens people ...'
I seem to remember someone saying, 'I sang a dirge and you would not mourn, I played a pipe and you would not dance ...'
Whatever we do isn't going to cut much mustard with a largely unchurched and dechurched/apathetic about organised religion and spirituality society.
I don't know what the answer is.
I know it doesn't lie in whether we roll around on the floor or whether we waggle thuribles around ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I can't remember which Orthodox writer/theologian said that 'the glory of God is a human being fully alive' - but that's the nub of it, I think.
Irenaeus of Lyons
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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