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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Trouble at Mars Hill
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
Again, not so much turning-- he's always been very much of a niche market even within American evangelicalism. The strong critiques are not new (for good reason).
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Many non-liturgical churches define "apostle" as "church planter". So Driskoll meets that definition of the term.
I don't know. I think that if the apostle Paul was still around he might well have said Driscoll met his definition of a "false apostle"...
Oh, me too. I was simply answering the earlier question re: the contemporary use of the term "apostle".
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
I'm inclined to say that people shouldn't be profiteering from their ministry. To choose someone outside the traditional clergy, C. S. Lewis provides an admirable example of how to deal with the profits of religious books - he gave them all away.
It could be said that the only way to prevent 'profiteering' in the church is not to have a professional ministry at all! There will always be those who are tempted to value the income more than the mission. This is how you end up with clergy who lose their faith but feel unable to walk away from the salary (modest though it may be, by middle class standards) and the pension.
As for C. S. Lewis, he was a childless academic who married late, who was probably paid decently compared with the salaries for other professional employees at the time. The gap between the salary of an average clergyman and the average professional employee has increased, so I understand.
BTW, who actually attends Driscoll's churches? Are they mostly poor folk? If not, why should they should their expect their minister to be poor? That would be a bit hypocritical. Anyway, Driscoll's 15 minutes as America's big celebrity pastor are perhaps coming to an end. It'll be someone else's turn soon.
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
There are two large evangelical churches with celebrity pastors named Mars Hill in the US, but any similarity or connection between the two ends there. Rob Bell founded the Mars Hill church in Michigan and was pastor there until just a year or two ago. He was not expelled but left to "pursue other projects" (speaking and writing engagements, one assumes).
Driskoll's Mars Hill is in Washington state.
I live in L.A. but had never heard of a Mars Hill L.A. I'm guessing it's part of the Acts 29 network, but it could also be an offshoot of the Bell version.
Ah - that explains a lot that had me befuddled. I thought they were a sort of supermarket chain of churches.
As for the one in LA I was probably mistaken. It was on a hill on the left as I headed down the highway to Orange County and Laguna Hills .. big auditorium, hundreds of cars. Probably a Democrat Convention!
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I'm guessing it's part of the Acts 29 network, but it could also be an offshoot of the Bell version.
Ah - that explains a lot that had me befuddled. I thought they were a sort of supermarket chain of churches.
As for the one in LA I was probably mistaken. It was on a hill on the left as I headed down the highway to Orange County and Laguna Hills .. big auditorium, hundreds of cars. Probably a Democrat Convention!
In West L.A., yes. In Orange County, not so much.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Arminian:
Interesting and rather sad letter from someone at the sharp end of Mars Hill...If true its pretty classic narcissist behavior.
http://ronwheelerjr.wordpress.com/2014/08/07/i-am-not-anonymous-2/
Well, it fits a couple of other things I've read... By the way, that post has been shared over 3,000 times on Facebook as I type this. That's a lot, right? The tide really is turning on how Driscoll is thought of, it seems.
In wider evangelical circles, it may well be, if only temporarily. If he plays things right, and signs are he will, Driscoll has every chance of receiving cheap grace and a free pass.
Arminian's blog link describes Driscoll engaging in classic master morality, the polar-opposite of Christianity's slave morality. Driscoll's as round a peg as you'll ever see.
I find it hard to dump all the blame on Driscoll, 'cause as an apex predator, he's born to act this way. Not because he's bad, but because he can. Near all of us would if we had the ability. As Nietzsche observed so damningly, "slave" morality is driven by self-interest: if we can't be masters, we seek to control those who are.
Masters must control themselves. By choosing to follow the way of Jesus, Driscoll's trying to fight against everything he is. How many of us can claim that level of restraint? Driscoll would dominate any field he chose. He's doing a helluva lot less damage as a pastor than he'd be doing in politics, business, or crime.
As the blog rightly says, Driscoll's enablers carry the can for much of the damage he's done. They chose not to step in years ago. The followers have at least as much responsibility as the leader.
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Arminian:
Interesting and rather sad letter from someone at the sharp end of Mars Hill...If true its pretty classic narcissist behavior.
http://ronwheelerjr.wordpress.com/2014/08/07/i-am-not-anonymous-2/
Well, it fits a couple of other things I've read... By the way, that post has been shared over 3,000 times on Facebook as I type this. That's a lot, right? The tide really is turning on how Driscoll is thought of, it seems.
In wider evangelical circles, it may well be, if only temporarily. If he plays things right, and signs are he will, Driscoll has every chance of receiving cheap grace and a free pass.
sigh. Once again, this is simply not the case. Leading American evangelicals as well as the rank-and-file have been publically and consistently calling Driscoll out on his misogynistic s**t for decades (iow, not "temporarily"). While 5000 followers sounds like a lot, it is less than .0001% of the estimated 50-80 million American evangelicals who do not share or endorse his views and are not coy about saying so. He has not gotten a free pass for YEARS and his recent behavior does not suggest he's likely to get one soon.
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
As the blog rightly says, Driscoll's enablers carry the can for much of the damage he's done. They chose not to step in years ago. The followers have at least as much responsibility as the leader.
Yes. Within that narrower sphere of influence, possibly even within the Acts 29 network, you are entirely right.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
As the blog rightly says, Driscoll's enablers carry the can for much of the damage he's done. They chose not to step in years ago. The followers have at least as much responsibility as the leader.
I disagree.
I do agree that top-level "enablers" bear some responsibility for letting the no. 1 get out of hand, and I think this is far more widespread in churches without a formalised leadership structure than christians usually admit.
However, from a christian perspective at least, I don't see any exceptions to the individual taking the most responsibility for their actions being that individual themself. From those to whom much has been given...
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
I see from the comments in the Ron Wheeler link that Mark Driscoll is coming to the 2015 Hillsong conference in Australia...interesting.
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
I find it hard to dump all the blame on Driscoll, 'cause as an apex predator, he's born to act this way. Not because he's bad, but because he can. Near all of us would if we had the ability. As Nietzsche observed so damningly, "slave" morality is driven by self-interest: if we can't be masters, we seek to control those who are.
Well, each of us has a dark side to our character that, if we are to follow the way of Christ, must be transformed and redeemed by our submission to God's grace. Driscoll's dark side is that he's an apex predator...
Surely, though, what you call Christian slave-morality isn't about controlling people (as per Nietzsche's definition)?
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
Masters must control themselves. By choosing to follow the way of Jesus, Driscoll's trying to fight against everything he is.
But not doing a good job, it seems; unless there's been an epic campaign of misinformation against him... I do think you're right to say his enablers bear plenty of responsibility, but when someone has the level of power that Driscoll seems to have at Mars Hill Church, taking a stand is difficult and an act of considerable courage.
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
sigh. Once again, this is simply not the case. Leading American evangelicals as well as the rank-and-file have been publically and consistently calling Driscoll out on his misogynistic s**t for decades (iow, not "temporarily"). While 5000 followers sounds like a lot, it is less than .0001% of the estimated 50-80 million American evangelicals who do not share or endorse his views and are not coy about saying so. He has not gotten a free pass for YEARS and his recent behavior does not suggest he's likely to get one soon. [...]
As I already noted, yes, evangelicals don't universally support Driscoll. Much of that was about tone: many evangelicals said they found Driscoll crude.
Until very recently, though, even if he was pissing out the flap with glee, the big guy was kept in the tent. Driscoll was invited to conferences, and is still down for Hillsong '15; LifeWay stocked his books until a few days ago; Christianity Today gave puff pieces (should that be fluff pieces ...) to Real Marriage. Sure, Driscoll was a bad boy, but he was our bad boy.
There was nothing comparable to the World Vision backlash. Rachel Held Evans and Steve Chalke have faced more ostracism. (LifeWay refused to stock A Year of Biblical Womanhood; the Evangelical Alliance dumped Oasis.)
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
There was nothing comparable to the World Vision backlash. Rachel Held Evans and Steve Chalke have faced more ostracism. (LifeWay refused to stock A Year of Biblical Womanhood; the Evangelical Alliance dumped Oasis.)
This seems a fair assessment to me. It really makes me sad that doctrinal correctness is often given far more emphasis than godly behaviour...
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I disagree.
I do agree that top-level "enablers" bear some responsibility for letting the no. 1 get out of hand, and I think this is far more widespread in churches without a formalised leadership structure than christians usually admit.
However, from a christian perspective at least, I don't see any exceptions to the individual taking the most responsibility for their actions being that individual themself. From those to whom much has been given...
Leaving aside the general question of personal responsibility, Driscoll's the bossman of a corporation. Corporate responsibility holds that all those who knowingly facilitate abusive behavior on its behalf share in the blame.
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Well, each of us has a dark side to our character that, if we are to follow the way of Christ, must be transformed and redeemed by our submission to God's grace. Driscoll's dark side is that he's an apex predator...
Surely, though, what you call Christian slave-morality isn't about controlling people (as per Nietzsche's definition)?
As the very least, it puts a ton of pressure on them to control themselves. As our legal system is shaped around it, it often jumps to outright coercion.
I have no problem with this. Just the opposite, it's a virtue. Apex predators need to be controlled for the common good. To see what life's like when they enjoy a free hand, visit gen pop in any badly run penitentiary.
quote:
But not doing a good job [at self-control], it seems; unless there's been an epic campaign of misinformation against him... I do think you're right to say his enablers bear plenty of responsibility, but when someone has the level of power that Driscoll seems to have at Mars Hill Church, taking a stand is difficult and an act of considerable courage.
Sure, but how did he get that power? All the hangers on who wanted a piece of the pie, all the people who turned a blind eye to abuse. Many others were innocent, but plenty weren't, and they're as involved in shaping the corporate culture of Mars Hill as Driscoll.
Driscoll's does struggle to follow Christian principles, but I hate to think how much worse he'd be if he didn't try. If he wasn't holding himself back, he'd be doing a helluva lot worse than screaming and shunning.
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
There was nothing comparable to the World Vision backlash. Rachel Held Evans and Steve Chalke have faced more ostracism. (LifeWay refused to stock A Year of Biblical Womanhood; the Evangelical Alliance dumped Oasis.)
This seems a fair assessment to me. It really makes me sad that doctrinal correctness is often given far more emphasis than godly behaviour...
Absolutely, although I'd say it's selective doctrinal correctness. The Mars Hill culture tramples all over biblical models of leadership and accountability.
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
sigh. Once again, this is simply not the case. Leading American evangelicals as well as the rank-and-file have been publically and consistently calling Driscoll out on his misogynistic s**t for decades (iow, not "temporarily"). While 5000 followers sounds like a lot, it is less than .0001% of the estimated 50-80 million American evangelicals who do not share or endorse his views and are not coy about saying so. He has not gotten a free pass for YEARS and his recent behavior does not suggest he's likely to get one soon. [...]
As I already noted, yes, evangelicals don't universally support Driscoll. Much of that was about tone: many evangelicals said they found Driscoll crude.
Until very recently, though, even if he was pissing out the flap with glee, the big guy was kept in the tent. Driscoll was invited to conferences, and is still down for Hillsong '15; LifeWay stocked his books until a few days ago; Christianity Today gave puff pieces (should that be fluff pieces ...) to Real Marriage. Sure, Driscoll was a bad boy, but he was our bad boy.
There was nothing comparable to the World Vision backlash. Rachel Held Evans and Steve Chalke have faced more ostracism. (LifeWay refused to stock A Year of Biblical Womanhood; the Evangelical Alliance dumped Oasis.)
Again, you are quite simply wrong. Yes, you can find the odd (and I do mean odd) puff piece. But leading American evangelicals have been calling him out for decades, including Christianity Today. And about FAR more serious things than just being crude.
There is absolutely nothing I can or wish to say to defend the World Vision debacle. It was tragic, horrible, and heartbreaking. Still, I'm not sure how it's relevant here. With World Vision you had a large evangelical base bullying a nonprofit who took a surprising and courageous stand. But there's nothing really for evangelicals to boycott with Driscoll, no funding to pull. He has that loyal 5000 or so followers who will continue buying his books and coming to his speaking engagements. Nothing's changed really with his misogynistic schtick for decades so there's no reason for them to stop enriching his coffers. The rest of the evangelical world caught the heavy stench coming off him years ago and have long stopped buying any of his products (which is why he has to manipulate NYT book lists), so there's no funding for them to pull. So I"m not really sure what comparison you're trying to make there.
Again, no defending the enablers, the Acts 29 network, his 5000 or so followers. But to try to pin this on evangelicals is simply not accurate or fair. We have enough real problems (witness the World Vision debacle) w/o blaming us for this c***.
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
Driscoll's does struggle to follow Christian principles, but I hate to think how much worse he'd be if he didn't try. If he wasn't holding himself back, he'd be doing a helluva lot worse than screaming and shunning.
Possibly but I'm not convinced. I mean he has to make some show of being Christian in order to keep controlling people and making lots of money. If he abandoned any semblance of following the bible, he'd lose his hold over anyone. I doubt he'd amass power in any other sphere other than religion, I mean sex-obsessed, potty-mouthed men with ordinary educations are not scarce, but being sex-obsessed and potty-mouthed in Christian circles makes you something of a niche-market as others have noted.
I tend to believe "apex-predators" find the environment in which they can achieve greatest power and aggrandisement. Non-structured church is the perfect storm for somebody with the attributes of Mr Driscoll.
[code]
[ 11. August 2014, 05:33: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Again, no defending the enablers, the Acts 29 network, his 5000 or so followers. But to try to pin this on evangelicals is simply not accurate or fair. We have enough real problems (witness the World Vision debacle) w/o blaming us for this c***.
Cliffdweller - I don't think this really undermines your point but, for the sake of accuracy, the '5000 or so followers' were the people who had shared on Facebook that letter from an ex-colleague of Mark Driscoll. I just checked and Driscoll's Facebook page has 258,081 likes.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Again, you are quite simply wrong. Yes, you can find the odd (and I do mean odd) puff piece. But leading American evangelicals have been calling him out for decades, including Christianity Today. And about FAR more serious things than just being crude. [...]
Yup, I agree that prominent evangelicals have called Driscoll out; what's striking is that he's stayed in the evangelical tent the whole time.
That's why I raised World Vision: it was made clear to them that, if they didn't backtrack on equal marriage, they'd be out. That similar hasn't been done with Driscoll isn't just down to practicality: as noted, LifeWay stocked his books until a few days back, and he's still invited to mainstream evangelical conferences.
People are responsible only for their own actions, so I'm not blaming evangelicalism for Mars Hill. What I am saying is that such a long tolerance of the church's setup points to some worrying aspects of evangelical culture.
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
Possibly but I'm not convinced. I mean he has to make some show of being Christian in order to keep controlling people and making lots of money. If he abandoned any semblance of following the bible, he'd lose his hold over anyone. I doubt he'd amass power in any other sphere other than religion, I mean sex-obsessed, potty-mouthed men with ordinary educations are not scarce, but being sex-obsessed and potty-mouthed in Christian circles makes you something of a niche-market as others have noted.
I tend to believe "apex-predators" find the environment in which they can achieve greatest power and aggrandisement. Non-structured church is the perfect storm for somebody with the attributes of Mr Driscoll.
Totally, but I do think Driscoll had plenty of options besides a Seattle meagachurch.
Driscoll's a smart guy, who went to Washington State and Western Seminary. If nothing else, he could make it as a standup: theology aside, his sermons are often bitingly funny. Setting up Mars Hill in his mid-twenties shows entrepreneurial skills in abundance. Evangelizing frat bros is the sale from hell, but he pulled it off.
That's part of the tragedy here. Driscoll has it in him to be a great leader, but those same traits contain the seeds of his destruction. If his god's Roman, his trajectory's straight out a Greek tragedy.
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Again, no defending the enablers, the Acts 29 network, his 5000 or so followers. But to try to pin this on evangelicals is simply not accurate or fair. We have enough real problems (witness the World Vision debacle) w/o blaming us for this c***.
Cliffdweller - I don't think this really undermines your point but, for the sake of accuracy, the '5000 or so followers' were the people who had shared on Facebook that letter from an ex-colleague of Mark Driscoll. I just checked and Driscoll's Facebook page has 258,081 likes.
The 5000 figure I was using was the membership of Mars Hill. But that's an old figure-- I haven't bothered to check, today's numbers could be up or down from that. But then again, if he's willing to use church $$ to boost his ranking on the NYT bestsellers list, why would I trust his reported church membership?
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
Ah, I misunderstood you. Sorry!
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Again, you are quite simply wrong. Yes, you can find the odd (and I do mean odd) puff piece. But leading American evangelicals have been calling him out for decades, including Christianity Today. And about FAR more serious things than just being crude. [...]
Yup, I agree that prominent evangelicals have called Driscoll out; what's striking is that he's stayed in the evangelical tent the whole time.
But the "evangelical tent" is for the most part a self-proclaimed tent. It's not a denomination one can be excommunicated from or a club one can be evicted from. There are organizations like the NEA, but generally unless you do something truly dreadful (like embrace Open Theism... grrrr... don't get me started on that back alley debacle...) if you pay your (literal) dues you're in.
Driscoll is "in" the evangelical tent because he says he's in. It's obviously financially advantageous to him. So he is. And, because evangelicalism encompasses not just connectional denominations with lines of accountability but also the sorts of disconnected, one-off, self-styled independent bodies (which enable precisely this sort of behavior) there's nothing for him to be "out" of.
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
That's why I raised World Vision: it was made clear to them that, if they didn't backtrack on equal marriage, they'd be out.
No. Again, there was nothing to be "out" of. Rather, it was clear that if they didn't backtrack, they'd lose large amounts of much-needed donors. That was possible and (horrifically) effective precisely because there were large numbers of evangelicals contributing to WV. But, again, with Driscoll it's a far different matter. The people who are buying his books/ putting money in the offering plate already know what he's like, and that's the appeal. There's no reason for them to boycott. The evangelicals who are calling Driscoll out on his bad behavior-- and there are many-- aren't the ones buying his books or sending him checks. So there's nothing for them to boycott, no financial hammer to bring down like there was on WV.
The WV debacle was pure, old-fashioned bullying of the worst kind. But irrelevant to the Driscoll matter.
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
LifeWay stocked his books until a few days back, and he's still invited to mainstream evangelical conferences.
All bookstores-- religious and secular-- stock a shockingly wide array of goods, from quality stuff to sheer c**p. It's the nature of the business, and has been for long, long before Driscoll started writing down his dark fantasies. Honestly, these days I'm delighted to find a brick-and-mortar bookstore of ANY sort with any kind of stock in business.
I suspect Driscoll's conference invites have fallen off, but I could be wrong. But these things get booked literally years in advance.
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
People are responsible only for their own actions, so I'm not blaming evangelicalism for Mars Hill. What I am saying is that such a long tolerance of the church's setup points to some worrying aspects of evangelical culture.
Much as I have been arguing this point, I have to acknowledge there's some truth there. There is a real problem with celebrity culture in evangelicalism, a real lack of discernment when it comes to anyone with a bit of fame and name recognition, no matter how they got it. And it seems to be made all the worse if the celebrity speaker is funny. For some reason, we will excuse all sorts of near-heretical stuff if the speaker is funny. Maybe that was World Vision's problem-- they just issued a dry corporate work-a-day inhouse email. Shoulda found some way to make their embracing of justice a cause for hilarity.
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
That's part of the tragedy here. Driscoll has it in him to be a great leader, but those same traits contain the seeds of his destruction. If his god's Roman, his trajectory's straight out a Greek tragedy.
Yes. Spot on.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
Washington State isn't Ivy League though, is it? Not claiming 2 be an expert but I'd say it was the sort of solid institution that 1000s of middle manager material men go to/graduate from every year. That's not to say that it doesn't produce leaders or great thinkers, but his education doesn't mark him as great.
Evangelising the Frat brothers is easy if you give them what you want-reinforce their notion of themselves as superior and objectify women as sex objects and you've got them eating out your hand. YMMV but I've seen it before, having worked at Unis.
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
Washington State isn't Ivy League though, is it? Not claiming 2 be an expert but I'd say it was the sort of solid institution that 1000s of middle manager material men go to/graduate from every year. That's not to say that it doesn't produce leaders or great thinkers, but his education doesn't mark him as great.
Evangelising the Frat brothers is easy if you give them what you want-reinforce their notion of themselves as superior and objectify women as sex objects and you've got them eating out your hand. YMMV but I've seen it before, having worked at Unis.
No, Washington State isn't in the collegiate sports league you mention, being a public school on the West Coast, and not a Wall Street prep in New England. Since attending an Ivy rests heavily on wealth and legacies, it's anyone's guess what attending college outside WASP-ville has to do with Driscoll's smarts or leadership abilities.
Fair point about headship appealing to young bucks, but that appeal doesn't extend to Driscoll ordering them to enter a dry spell until marriage, without so much as an oasis with a Hustler.
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
[...] The WV debacle was pure, old-fashioned bullying of the worst kind. But irrelevant to the Driscoll matter.
[...] All bookstores-- religious and secular-- stock a shockingly wide array of goods, from quality stuff to sheer c**p. It's the nature of the business, and has been for long, long before Driscoll started writing down his dark fantasies. [...]
I mention both LifeWay and World Vision 'cause they fit into a pattern of evangelical gatekeeping.
The President of the Southern Baptist Seminary said WV's (aborted) policy "violates the gospel of Christ." Chelsen Vicari called Rachel Held Evans an "evangelical in name only" for her disgust at the backlash.
Nothing close to this in content or ferocity has been directed at Mars Hill.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
Nothing close to this in content or ferocity has been directed at Mars Hill.
I agree with this. It's not the first time I've come across the evangelical establishment having its guns pointing the wrong way.
Cliffdweller, I think we all get the message that you disown Driscoll, and are glad to hear it, but I also think he has been cut far too much slack and that the warning signs were not heeded - and called out - as they should have been.
It will be an interesting test whether Hillsongs pull their conference invite to him. More interesting will be to see whether various evangelical institutions, media and broadly-respected leaders will have the courage to speak up now, or whether Driscoll will simply be quietly dropped as someone "we don't talk about any more".
[ 11. August 2014, 05:43: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
Apex predators need to be controlled for the common good. To see what life's like when they enjoy a free hand, visit gen pop in any badly run penitentiary.
I don't know about "badly run", but I frequently do visit our local equivalent - will be there this afternoon, right in among "gen pop". If there is a major incident then yes, prison staff at various levels may catch some heat for failing to prevent it, but I never yet saw their failings being invoked to mitigate the seriousness of the perpetrator's actions.
[ 11. August 2014, 06:17: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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seekingsister
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# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
No, Washington State isn't in the collegiate sports league you mention, being a public school on the West Coast, and not a Wall Street prep in New England. Since attending an Ivy rests heavily on wealth and legacies, it's anyone's guess what attending college outside WASP-ville has to do with Driscoll's smarts or leadership abilities.
Ignoring the bizarre point about Ivy Leagues (only legacies and bankers in training attend them? Give it a rest), I'm not sure why graduating from a university makes you think Driscoll is a smart guy. A BA is the minimum requirement for most Protestant ministers in the US, and a seminary degree/masters is also extremely common. It was a comment that stood out to me as well, perhaps you have a reason for thinking these are exceptional qualifications but they do not make me think "Driscoll - what a well-educated intellectual!"
On the wider discussion - I've been involved with a church with similar charismatic leaders, financial malfeasance, and abusive behaviors. In fact I post on a forum for members/ex-members of that group and many have commented on the similarities to Mars Hill and there is a discussion now on the topic.
Driscoll and people like him could have success in the private sector or in politics - but they are drawn to religion because they get the opportunity to give their opinions the force of GOD. A president or CEO still has voters or shareholders to answer to. Religious leaders can use people's genuine faith in God to get them to empty their pockets and their minds, and follow them almost blindly. It makes "us vs. them" claims very easy to introduce - there are enough scriptures about persecution to turn any criticism into "they just won't submit to God's will."
The mistake Driscoll made was that he also desired personal fame, which opens him up to a higher level of scrutiny. Most characters like him are content to rule over their small fiefdom and try to avoid the media and public.
[ 11. August 2014, 09:25: Message edited by: seekingsister ]
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ExclamationMark
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# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
.... I'm not sure why graduating from a university makes you think Driscoll is a smart guy. A BA is the minimum requirement for most Protestant ministers in the US, and a seminary degree/masters is also extremely common.
Bear in kind that a BA from an American University may or may not be equivalent to one from a UK university.
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[ 11. August 2014, 16:06: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
[...] The WV debacle was pure, old-fashioned bullying of the worst kind. But irrelevant to the Driscoll matter.
[...] All bookstores-- religious and secular-- stock a shockingly wide array of goods, from quality stuff to sheer c**p. It's the nature of the business, and has been for long, long before Driscoll started writing down his dark fantasies. [...]
I mention both LifeWay and World Vision 'cause they fit into a pattern of evangelical gatekeeping.
The President of the Southern Baptist Seminary said WV's (aborted) policy "violates the gospel of Christ." Chelsen Vicari called Rachel Held Evans an "evangelical in name only" for her disgust at the backlash.
Nothing close to this in content or ferocity has been directed at Mars Hill.
Oh, sure it has. Just from different people, and people who choose not to hold starving children hostage to their political agenda.
Again, there is no justifying the WV debacle (in which RHE was collateral damage). I share your disgust-- as do many of my evangelical brethren (witness the well deserved popularity of RHE).
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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ChastMastr
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# 716
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Posted
I had never heard of the man until recently, myself, but then I haven't traveled in those circles a lot.
(When I looked him up, he sounded ghastly. I would have run screaming from him apart from any scandals or the like.)
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Amongst Evangelicals (and I suspect they inherited it from certain elements within the Reformed tradition, ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) ) there is a culture of proving you are in by making someone else out! When this is a technique to establish your own orthodoxy it does not make well for consistent cultures.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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Byron
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# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I don't know about "badly run", but I frequently do visit our local equivalent - will be there this afternoon, right in among "gen pop". If there is a major incident then yes, prison staff at various levels may catch some heat for failing to prevent it, but I never yet saw their failings being invoked to mitigate the seriousness of the perpetrator's actions.
Of course not, but you would see other members of a prison gang share the blame.
In his confession, Lief Moi, one of Mars Hill's co-founders, said "much of who I was and how I thought and behaved was driven by Narcissism and anti-social tendencies."
In her brilliant and raw account of the 2007 firings, Jonna Petry, wife of Paul Petry, one of the elders dismissed, said, "I have my own sin in all this. I contributed to the dysfunctional system. I acted in pride, idolatry, fear of man, people pleasing, cowardice, and favoritism. I am truly sorry for all the ways I personally hurt people by my words, my actions or inactions, directly or indirectly, during mytime at Mars Hill Church from 2001-2007, especially as a part of leadership. And now, I am also very sorry for how my years of silence regarding the spiritual abuse that I suffered have indirectly contributed to the abuse of other precious people. Though truthfully, I don’t think I could have written about it any sooner."
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
Ignoring the bizarre point about Ivy Leagues (only legacies and bankers in training attend them? Give it a rest), [...]
I didn't say that: I said legacies play a huge part (as this Standford alumnus admits and defends, as does Wall Street (as The Dartmouth bemoans). There'll always be homeless-to-Harvard inspirational stories, but as the Stanford article notes, they're very much the exception.
My point was, simply, that it's no indication of smarts if a blue collar guy from the West Coast doesn't fly over two thousand miles to attend a punishingly expensive private school. I'm surprised anyone seriously claimed that it was.
quote:
[...] I'm not sure why graduating from a university makes you think Driscoll is a smart guy. A BA is the minimum requirement for most Protestant ministers in the US, and a seminary degree/masters is also extremely common. It was a comment that stood out to me as well, perhaps you have a reason for thinking these are exceptional qualifications but they do not make me think "Driscoll - what a well-educated intellectual!"[...]
I didn't say he was an "intellectual," I said he was a smart guy, judging by his success in establishing a thriving church in a tough environment, the content of his sermons, and his having (unlike many startup preacher-men) attended a four-year state college followed by a seminary. I'd say exactly the same about mainline clergy, but in this field, that's not the point of comparison.
quote:
On the wider discussion - I've been involved with a church with similar charismatic leaders, financial malfeasance, and abusive behaviors. In fact I post on a forum for members/ex-members of that group and many have commented on the similarities to Mars Hill and there is a discussion now on the topic.
Driscoll and people like him could have success in the private sector or in politics - but they are drawn to religion because they get the opportunity to give their opinions the force of GOD. A president or CEO still has voters or shareholders to answer to. Religious leaders can use people's genuine faith in God to get them to empty their pockets and their minds, and follow them almost blindly. It makes "us vs. them" claims very easy to introduce - there are enough scriptures about persecution to turn any criticism into "they just won't submit to God's will."
The mistake Driscoll made was that he also desired personal fame, which opens him up to a higher level of scrutiny. Most characters like him are content to rule over their small fiefdom and try to avoid the media and public.
Think there's a lot of truth in this: being God's mouthpiece is tempting for anyone.
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Amongst Evangelicals (and I suspect they inherited it from certain elements within the Reformed tradition, ) there is a culture of proving you are in by making someone else out! When this is a technique to establish your own orthodoxy it does not make well for consistent cultures.
Jengie
This.
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
I sort of agree with both Byron and cliffdweller.
American Evangelicalism isn't monolithic. The Calvinist bunch affiliated with Driscoll spent the last couple of decades anathematizing the charismatics and others who disagree with them. Just watch an episode of the John Ankerberg show. Within this circle, Driscoll is hardly without his critics. John MacArthur Jr. is one of the biggest names in that circle. He said Driscoll was unfit for ministry 5 years ago. Yes, Piper continues to support Driscoll because he's impressed with his ability to reach younger people. However, Driscoll's support comes from a faction of a faction within American Evangelicalism. Most evangelicals never thought much about Driscoll in the first place. So, on that, I agree with cliffdweller.
On the other hand, Byron is right that Evangelicals are harder on liberals than on Driscoll. The issue difference is the Dead Horse in question. LifeWay is affiliated with the Southern Baptist Covention. In the last 15 years or so, the SBC changed the Baptist Faith and Message to read that wives should graciously submit to their husbands. So, biblical male headship is still the majority position among Evangelicals. World Vision made a decision that Evangelicals saw as an endorsement of gay marriage. Gay marriage is not acceptable to most Evangelicals. So, Mark Driscoll's biggest sin was promoting an extreme version of biblical male headship. World Vision's sin was promoting something most Evangelicals still see as an abomination.
We can quibble about how to define Evangelical and what a majority of Evangelicals actually believe. However, the issue is really about what a majority of Evangelicals who support Mark Driscoll believe. In their view, Driscoll at his most contentious is still more acceptable than Rachel Held Evans and those like her. If the pressure stays on Driscoll, he may lose even more support until he is forced to resign or accept Mars Hill being a shadow of what it once was. I've seen both happen. Neither outcome will surprise me.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
The problem to my mind is that many evangelicals, and more especially the evangelical establishment, can't see the ethical wood for the doctrinal trees.
So long as a leader ticks the right boxes on certain theological issues (including but not limited to Dead Horse issues) and can draw a crowd, they get a free pass on basic ethics (plagiarism, abusive management styles, financial accountability, etc.). Any opposition is likely to come from natural doctrinal opponents, with the silent majority looking on, so it's easy for the unethical leader to sidestep the real issues.
I think evangelicalism could clean its house up far more effectively on the basis of broad coalitions transcending shibboleths and targeting these basic ethical problems. I have had first-hand experience of this working (as part of a coalition which I suspect disagreed profoundly over DH issues), and continue to militate for such an approach.
[ 11. August 2014, 21:06: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
The problem to my mind is that many evangelicals, and more especially the evangelical establishment, can't see the ethical wood for the doctrinal trees.
I think Beeswax Altar has done a better job of correctly describing the nuance here. I would agree with his assessment, both of the diversity of evangelicalism and the small fraction of those who support Driscoll, as well as with his critique of the selective attention that is given the Dead Horse issue as compared to the misogyny and abusive power issues that Driscoll is so ripe with.
The problem is, in fact, the very diversity. We don't have anything like the 39 articles, many evangelicals have never even recited the Apostle's creed. The best description of evangelicalism is still the Bebbington quadrilateral, but many look to a small handful of Dead Horse issues as a short cut/ litmus test to deciding someone's evangelical bona fides. The problem is that many of us are suggesting that one can follow the Bebbington quad. on biblicism, christicentrism, etc. and still come out with a different outcome on those issues-- perhaps even precisely because of the quad.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
[...] On the other hand, Byron is right that Evangelicals are harder on liberals than on Driscoll. The issue difference is the Dead Horse in question. [...]
Absolutely, and I think Eutychus nails it when he says this causes too many evangelicals to miss the ethical wood for the doctrinal trees. (Not all, by any means.) Ethics aren't holistic, they're reduced to tick-boxing. If you're "sound" on X,Y,Z doctrines, you can get away with murder before you're brought to book. (Although Driscoll does break with cessationism: in fact, he sees things ... ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) )
Running with the holistic, hard as it is, I can see Driscoll's positives. His Achilles' heel is being stuck on one setting. The way he applied his heavy shepherding has been appalling, but if he'd been better mentored by guys like Piper, it could've been restricted to the horny young guys who benefit from it. This is the toxic sea Driscoll fishes in. Gentler pastors wouldn't get through the door. For all his many flaws, he's got thousands of dudebros to grow up and take responsibility.
I really do hope that Mars Hill can turn a corner, and reconcile with those it's hurt, not with empty half-apologies, but by structural change, and atoning for the damage it's done.
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
My point was, simply, that it's no indication of smarts if a blue collar guy from the West Coast doesn't fly over two thousand miles to attend a punishingly expensive private school. I'm surprised anyone seriously claimed that it was.
[...] I'm not sure why graduating from a university makes you think Driscoll is a smart guy. A BA is the minimum requirement for most Protestant ministers in the US, and a seminary degree/masters is also extremely common. It was a comment that stood out to me as well, perhaps you have a reason for thinking these are exceptional qualifications but they do not make me think "Driscoll - what a well-educated intellectual!"[...]
I didn't say he was an "intellectual," I said he was a smart guy, judging by his success in establishing a thriving church in a tough environment, the content of his sermons, and his having (unlike many startup preacher-men) attended a four-year state college followed by a seminary. I'd say exactly the same about mainline clergy, but in this field, that's not the point of comparison.
My comment about the ordinariness of his education (that's different from his "smarts") were in the context of it being claimed he was an apex predator and that he would have had commensurate success in a field other than preaching. I'm not saying he is dumb or uneducated just that there's nothing outstanding in his educational or academic background that would make you sit up and take notice-it's ordinary.
I stand by the fact that he wouldn't. HIs sort are two-a-penny outside the church- the office sociopath/bully but the church has given him a credibility and power and sucker bait he would have been denied in a more competitive and accountable environment. Of course it's a fairly unproductive tangent as we'll never know for sure.
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[ 12. August 2014, 05:35: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
This is the toxic sea Driscoll fishes in. Gentler pastors wouldn't get through the door.
I don't know... A guy I know a bit who does missionary work with prisoners and gang members is the gentlest, sweetest man you could ever hope to meet. And Eutychus here, who also works in prisons, seems a long way from Driscoll-esque 'fiery-ness'...
I'm sure Driscoll and the various ministries he's been involved with have done much good work, but I'm not convinced that this would have been diminished by his being less aggressive, rude and bullying.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
My comment about the ordinariness of his education (that's different from his "smarts") were in the context of it being claimed he was an apex predator and that he would have had commensurate success in a field other than preaching. I'm not saying he is dumb or uneducated just that there's nothing outstanding in his educational or academic background that would make you sit up and take notice-it's ordinary.
I stand by the fact that he wouldn't. HIs sort are two-a-penny outside the church- the office sociopath/bully but the church has given him a credibility and power and sucker bait he would have been denied in a more competitive and accountable environment. Of course it's a fairly unproductive tangent as we'll never know for sure.
Obviously, it's informed guesswork, but folk like Driscoll are driven to succeed in whatever field they enter, and his work at Mars Hill has displayed a bunch of transferable skills. Given his background, just getting to a good four-year college was a major achievement.* I think his high school class were onto something when they voted him "most likely to succeed."
Mars Hill was a more accountable environment for the first ten years. The rot set in around '07, when Driscoll, burned out, got its elders to rejig the bylaws, and his accountability collapsed. As Jonna Petry said, a Type A personality like Driscoll needs strong guys to keep him in check. He recognized this when he set up Mars Hill; tragically, by '07, the worst part of him won out, and none of his fellow elders were willing, or able, to rein him in.
quote:
* "The men on my father's side include uneducated alcoholics, mental patients, and women beaters. This includes an uncle who died of gangrene and his sons, roughly my age, who have been in prison for beating women ... One of the main reasons my parents moved from North Dakota to Seattle was to get away from some family members when I was a very young boy."
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
[
Running with the holistic, hard as it is, I can see Driscoll's positives. His Achilles' heel is being stuck on one setting. The way he applied his heavy shepherding has been appalling, but if he'd been better mentored by guys like Piper, it could've been restricted to the horny young guys who benefit from it. This is the toxic sea Driscoll fishes in. Gentler pastors wouldn't get through the door. For all his many flaws, he's got thousands of dudebros to grow up and take responsibility.
hmmm....personally, I think Piper's mentoring of Driscoll is part of the problem. Driscoll just looks like a crasser, more heavy-handed version of Piper's aggressive stance toward all dissenters.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
I don't know... A guy I know a bit who does missionary work with prisoners and gang members is the gentlest, sweetest man you could ever hope to meet. And Eutychus here, who also works in prisons, seems a long way from Driscoll-esque 'fiery-ness'...
Oh, no doubt. My comment was restricted to the sort of entitled frat boys who lurched through Yale chanting "no means yes." Prison is a whole other demographic. Hardship and failure aren't common experiences amongst privileged dudebros, and it's an uphill task to get their attention.
quote:
I'm sure Driscoll and the various ministries he's been involved with have done much good work, but I'm not convinced that this would have been diminished by his being less aggressive, rude and bullying.
Agree totally about bullying. Like I said, his Achilles' heel is not adapting to his audience. His macho swagger has a place, but that place isn't church leadership.
Example: in his book on the early years, Confessions of a Reformission Rev., Driscoll tells how he knocked heads together when a bunch of young Turks threatened to rip Mars Hill apart by aggressively challenging folk over Calvinist minutiae. Driscoll's solution was all very frat house, but effective: he got 'em together, paired 'em off, let 'em debate themselves hoarse, then award the "winner" a viking helmet. Broke the tension great by getting them to see how ridiculous they'd become.
Unfortunately, Driscoll ended up trying to run the whole church like that.
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
hmmm....personally, I think Piper's mentoring of Driscoll is part of the problem. Driscoll just looks like a crasser, more heavy-handed version of Piper's aggressive stance toward all dissenters.
I agree. Piper's indulgent mentoring has been a major part of the problem. He should've stepped in back in '07. If he'd knocked some sense into Driscoll then, I doubt we'd be here now.
As this superbly-titled blog put it, Driscoll needs an elephant.
[ 11. August 2014, 23:51: Message edited by: Byron ]
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
hmmm....personally, I think Piper's mentoring of Driscoll is part of the problem. Driscoll just looks like a crasser, more heavy-handed version of Piper's aggressive stance toward all dissenters.
I agree. Piper's indulgent mentoring has been a major part of the problem. He should've stepped in back in '07. If he'd knocked some sense into Driscoll then, I doubt we'd be here now.
My point is that Piper is the wrong man for the job. Piper has the same outsize ego, the same pattern of absurdly hyperbolic demonizing of "opponents" (i.e. Christian colleagues), as Driscoll. He just puts a somewhat nicer facade on it. Piper might have been able to teach Driscoll how to pretty up some of his crasser edges, but he wasn't the man to deal with the underlying issues of pride and whatever godawful insecurity his alpha-male bravado is covering up.
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[ 12. August 2014, 05:38: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
My point is that Piper is the wrong man for the job. Piper has the same outsize ego, the same pattern of absurdly hyperbolic demonizing of "opponents" (i.e. Christian colleagues), as Driscoll. He just puts a somewhat nicer facade on it. Piper might have been able to teach Driscoll how to pretty up some of his crasser edges, but he wasn't the man to deal with the underlying issues of pride and whatever godawful insecurity his alpha-male bravado is covering up.
I don't see any reason to believe that Driscoll's got hidden issues. I see nothing that complicated about him, nor do I see any bravado: more's the pity, he's followed through on his threats to devastating effect.
Driscoll's a dominant male who attacks anything that threatens his dominance. Until recently, his beliefs about patriarchy and gender conformity were the norm. They still are in much of the world. Detest those beliefs as I do, I know guys like Driscoll ain't going anywhere, so I accept the best I can hope for is that they follow a code that does the minimum of harm.
I agree that Piper was the wrong guy to mentor Driscoll. They seem to have fed the worst in each other. Now this is all coming to a head, there's at least a chance that Driscoll will finally get the guidance and accountability he so desperately needs.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
Now this is all coming to a head, there's at least a chance that Driscoll will finally get the guidance and accountability he so desperately needs.
Thinking of people like Todd Bentley, I'm not optimistic. Bentley had a "restoration committee" for a short while (before opting out of it), lay low for about a year and then started right up again.
The problem is having somebody like Driscoll being able to get into church leadership in the first place, and then being legitimised through the acknowledgement of other leaders. Too many evangelicals equate numbers with success in the Kingdom of God, and too many are not above a bit of bullying themselves.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
[...] The problem is having somebody like Driscoll being able to get into church leadership in the first place, and then being legitimised through the acknowledgement of other leaders. Too many evangelicals equate numbers with success in the Kingdom of God, and too many are not above a bit of bullying themselves.
With ya on the curse of numbers = success, and zero tolerance on bullying.
Much as my instincts want to, can't agree about keeping the Driscolls of the world outa leadership. If the church has any chance of engaging frat guys who chant "no means yes, yes means anal," it's gotta have pastors able to connect with that savage machismo. Any code that doesn't speak their language won't be given the time of day. For the crowd Driscoll feels called to pastor, it's not a choice between egalitarianism and Mars Hill, but between Mars Hill and a guest spot on SVU.
Driscoll was a successful pastor for a good decade; he went off the rails in '07 when the checks and balances at Mars Hill failed. So long as their replacement has teeth, he can be kept off the Todd Bentley tracks.
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
Much as my instincts want to, can't agree about keeping the Driscolls of the world outa leadership. If the church has any chance of engaging frat guys who chant "no means yes, yes means anal," it's gotta have pastors able to connect with that savage machismo. Any code that doesn't speak their language won't be given the time of day.
At the risk of sounding twee, I think Jesus managed to engage all sorts without adopting the values of those to whom he reached out.
Your frat guys' chant is fully representative of a certain class of inmate, too, who I wouldn't describe as downtrodden or stripped of resources, either, and I can assure you that you don't need to adopt the language of their power structure to get a hearing from them.
At the risk of shooting my "wood for the trees" argument in the foot, I think the 'extreme headship' doctrine bought into by Driscoll is just one manifestation of an entirely ungodly approach to power (or to be more charitable, misunderstanding of what "authority" means) which is likely to end up producing abusive churches.
But even if one is some sort of headship proponent, allowing Driscoll to continue in a leadership role looks irresponsible to me. As an evangelist, if you must, maybe.
[ 12. August 2014, 06:28: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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