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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Trouble at Mars Hill
Green Mario
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Seemed to me just like unfair HTB bashing to be honest.
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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Green Mario:
Seemed to me just like unfair HTB bashing to be honest.

Not airbrushing is good. Speaking out about the bad practice would be better.

I simply quoted Gumbel as someone who had been mentioned, but since he has been, I think the problem there is that Alpha is a brand and all the reasoning behind any communication from that quarter is likely to go into what's good for the brand. Brands and truth-telling don't sit well together*.

In fact, I have a working theory that brands are today's idols.

(Similarly, when I hear of a church "closing down branches and laying off staff", I have to ask myself just what it has become).

==

*But in fairness, Driscoll did not say women were "penis homes" in so many words. Salon is not exactly a neutral source either.

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Green Mario
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Well while we are on the subject of Truth telling do we know which HTB books quote Mark Driscoll and how close HTB actually is to him before we expect them to make an apology about the closeness of their relationship with him?
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Eutychus
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I never actually made that claim. It may well be that Gumbel doesn't quote Driscoll. But I think it's fair to argue that within the Church at large they are broadly perceived as representing similar constituencies - evangelical, evangelistic-oriented and mission-oriented - and that his mishbehaving has been largely tolerated by the big hitters in the evangelical establishment in view of what was perceived as success.

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ChastMastr
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Wait, you mean in the UK Mark Driscoll is not perceived as ... um, an extreme fundamentalist??

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I never actually made that claim. It may well be that Gumbel doesn't quote Driscoll. But I think it's fair to argue that within the Church at large they are broadly perceived as representing similar constituencies - evangelical, evangelistic-oriented and mission-oriented - and that his mishbehaving has been largely tolerated by the big hitters in the evangelical establishment in view of what was perceived as success.

I can't speak for Gumbel and UK evangelicalism, but as has been shown upthread, Driscoll has not gotten a free pass among US evangelicals for quite some time.

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Eutychus
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I'm probably seeing this from the corner of evangelicalism I'm most familiar with. NewFrontiers, whose churches are definitely considered part of the UK evo mainstream, had Driscoll to speak at a leaders' conference not so long ago.

This side of the pond at least, I think evangelicals are excited by leaders who achieve broader public recognition, and often prefer basking in the reflected limelight to taking a closer look at the details. I think Driscoll was seen as a successful "ministry" whose 'bad boy' attitude was a little bit of a thrill.

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Green Mario
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New Frontiers would have more reason to see affinity with Driscoll than other elements of the evangelical church in the UK in my opinion.

New Frontiers (I understand) places an emphasis on both reformed theology and also male leadership/headship (although I know New Frontiers churches have women heading up very prominent ministries so presumably they still see this very differently to Driscoll) and so they are more likely to see common cause in Driscoll because of these distinctives.

Most Anglican charismatic churches don't place a emphasis on reformed theology to the same degree in my experience of New Wine at least and have a vastly different understanding of women in leadership for instance and the equality of men and women and therefore I would think they wouldn't find much common cause with him other than respect for the bible and mission focus:

To talk about this more generally though I am not sure though after the fact what we think churches should do if someone they have either:

1) Quoted approvingly
2) Invited to speak

Proves not to be what they were thought to be and righty attracts negative publicity.

Should they speak about the person internally within the church (perhaps in the context of a sermon)? Put a public disclaimer on their website? Ignore it? Repudiate the ideas of the person that have come out and without mentioning the person explicitly my name? Offer positive teaching in the other direction (so in the case of Driscoll explicitly teach perhaps on male/female equality, respectful interactions with other people and what non-abusive leadership looks like?)


I also don't think conferences should always play it safe with who they invite - getting people to speak that you don't totally agree with certainly opens up conversations.


I attended an evangelical Baptist church when I was exploring Christianity as a student which seemed to spend at least some time in its sermon bashing a vast range of churches; I can almost guarantee they would have said something negative about Driscoll at some point if he had been around then purely on the law of averages. This clearly isn't a healthy approach.

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seekingsister
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I never actually made that claim. It may well be that Gumbel doesn't quote Driscoll. But I think it's fair to argue that within the Church at large they are broadly perceived as representing similar constituencies - evangelical, evangelistic-oriented and mission-oriented - and that his mishbehaving has been largely tolerated by the big hitters in the evangelical establishment in view of what was perceived as success.

No, I don't think it's fair.

I'm a member of an HTB plant and have never heard Driscoll spoken of. We hear a lot about the Johnsons, Rick Warren, Tim Keller, Bill Hybels, etc.

HTB's view on the role of women in the family and in the church is so drastically different from that of Mars Hill that I can't imagine there'd be much to agree on.

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seekingsister
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quote:
Originally posted by Green Mario:
Most Anglican charismatic churches don't place a emphasis on reformed theology to the same degree in my experience of New Wine at least and have a vastly different understanding of women in leadership for instance and the equality of men and women and therefore I would think they wouldn't find much common cause with him other than respect for the bible and mission focus:

I cross-posted with you but completely agree. One only has to compare Nicky and Sila Lee's "The Marriage Book" to Mark and Grace Driscoll's "Real Marriage" to see that there are fairly major differences between the two camps.
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Eutychus
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Of course there are differences, especially when you're on the inside of one of these movements, but but the key word in my post was perceived.

If you go to HTB's YouTube channel, Mars Hill is in the list of related channels. A Christian podcast site lists HTB immediately after Mars Hill, here. Both organisations are likely to receive similar levels of coverage by christian and more particularly evangelical media.

Of course teaching should not consist of bashing everyone else; I'd be more in favour of positive affirmation of convictions. But I dream of more mutual accountability, somehow, amongst leading evangelicals across the board. The lack of it means that when someone like Driscoll misbehaves, it reflects badly on the whole spectrum.

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Higgs Bosun
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I'm basically with Green Mario in this particular sub-thread. As someone who is a member of a church with New Wine/Alpha/HTB connections, I don't think I have ever come across a reference to Mark Driscoll from 'the front' or in books. If someone can show a quotation, or point out a gathering where Nicky Gumbel and Mark Driscoll have shared a platform, I am willing to be corrected.

However, I do think the more conservative evangelical elements in the CofE round here, such as the St Helen's, Bishopsgate nexus, do have connections to Mark Driscoll, as they are much more into the New Calvanism, and also strong 'complementarianism'. For instance, I have just confirmed a recollection that Mark Driscoll spoke at a Men's Convention in London in 2011, organized by Richard Coekin (Dundonald group of churches) and others of that ilk. (I was not there, but recalled conevo friends referring to it.)

(Although the way Driscoll has ruled Mars Hill is wrong, and warning to churches which invest in the "strong leader", it is what I have read of his teaching on male/female relationships that I find most disturbing.)

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seekingsister
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Both organisations are likely to receive similar levels of coverage by christian and more particularly evangelical media.

Except Mars Hill has been routinely attacked within Christian media, particularly since the "Strange Fire" episode. Warren Throckmorton's blog on Patheos has been after MH for months now. There's an article on Rachel Held Evans blog criticizing Driscoll from 2011.

The anti-HTB sentiment within Christian blogs that I've seen largely comes from non-evangelical Anglicans. Mars Hill has been getting the phone calls from inside of the house for some time.

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Eutychus
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I'm happy to concede I may have a warped perspective on Driscoll's standing due to my own idiosyncratic networks. I would however like to pick up on this:

quote:
Originally posted by Higgs Bosun:
(Although the way Driscoll has ruled Mars Hill is wrong, and warning to churches which invest in the "strong leader", it is what I have read of his teaching on male/female relationships that I find most disturbing.)

I agree, but I think that calling leaders out on bad practices as opposed to bad doctrine would be a good step forward.

My contention is that it ought to be relatively easy to find common ground to denounce practices (such as abusive management practices) which are seen in a bad light even outside christian circles, whereas focusing on theological issues (which seems to be the tendency) quickly leads to disagreement and an excuse to not do anything "because we don't teach anything like that".

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Higgs Bosun:

However, I do think the more conservative evangelical elements in the CofE round here, such as the St Helen's, Bishopsgate nexus, do have connections to Mark Driscoll, as they are much more into the New Calvanism, and also strong 'complementarianism'. For instance, I have just confirmed a recollection that Mark Driscoll spoke at a Men's Convention in London in 2011, organized by Richard Coekin (Dundonald group of churches) and others of that ilk.

He did - though they (Dundonald) rapidly seemed to go off him (in the same way as the Sydney Anglicans did). The more conservative elements generally don't have many/any connections to Mars Hill beyond occasionally quoting him a few years ago - it's worth remembering that Dundonald tends to be on its own in a lot of things.

[ 10. September 2014, 09:21: Message edited by: chris stiles ]

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seekingsister
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
My contention is that it ought to be relatively easy to find common ground to denounce practices (such as abusive management practices) which are seen in a bad light even outside christian circles, whereas focusing on theological issues (which seems to be the tendency) quickly leads to disagreement and an excuse to not do anything "because we don't teach anything like that".

Fair enough. I spent many years in a church that had abusive practices - reading about Mars Hill practically triggers flashbacks - and came to realize the importance of denominational structures in "emerging" church groups. HTB for all that people complain about it is part of the Church of England and so has to behave in a certain way and be fairly transparent. Your local Redeemed Christian Church of God simply does not have the same oversight.

Mars Hill did was a great many other non-denominational growing megachurches have done - relied too much on a charismatic leader, interpreted all criticism (including valid ones) as "persecution," excessively disciplined members, and misapplied Scripture out of context to justify church policies and doctrine as a means of "proving" its legitimacy.

The reason the gender issue is so important is that members of Mars Hill had to agree not to be "divisive" with church leadership on core issues of which extreme complementarianism was one. If they do they subject themselves to church discipline. This is part of the covenant agreement they have to sign. So you have a church where members are allowed to ask questions about why Pastor Mark is preaching on the things a wife needs to do physically to keep her husband satisfied and faithful (i.e. he will cheat and therefore sin if you don't X/Y/Z).

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quetzalcoatl
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The theology of blow-jobs?

I think, seekingsister, that you've left out a 'not'? Should be 'are not allowed ...'?

[ 10. September 2014, 09:29: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]

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Heavenly Anarchist
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I can't speak for the leadership in NFI but Driscoll's views on roles within marriage are being discussed and condemned within the membership of my own NFI church, the subject was brought up at a dinner party I was at only last week (though obviously this might reflect the more open evo wing of NFI, as our church also has women preachers).

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seekingsister
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
The theology of blow-jobs?

I think, seekingsister, that you've left out a 'not'? Should be 'are not allowed ...'?

NOT allowed - correct! Ooops!
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Snags
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quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Wait, you mean in the UK Mark Driscoll is not perceived as ... um, an extreme fundamentalist??

From my local perspective (MOTR Evangelical church, knocking around with people in both more moderate and more extreme streams) until relatively recently Mark Driscoll has been seen as someone not unlike Rob Bell, but on the other side of the liberal/conservative see-saw.

So he's a "personality" Christian from the US, with a mega-church, who gobs off but is probably basically a good egg if you're an Evangelical. Particularly popular with those involved in youth ministry and so on because of the sound-bites, clear statements and so on.

A smaller number of people have always been a bit wary through to downright negative (those who tend towards a more liberal Evangelicalism, or are a bit older and more cynical).

I'd say his status has been changing, though. Certainly people I know who used to retweet him (not any of his hideous stuff, but things which in isolation were actually good) no longer do. But there are folk I know who seemed to largely approve which always surprised me, as they're not ultra-conservative at all. But when you read around the Christian press etc. and the way this stuff gets disseminated, over here it's not surprising. You only get to pick up on the dark stuff (the misogyny, the heavy shepherding/abusive behaviour, etc. etc.) if you read outside of the mainstream. As a result it's only recently that his public image has started to slip from "slightly outrageous, a bit conservative, but popular and sound guy" to "misogynistic, abusive, control freak, right-wing nut job".

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Wood
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I know that Mark Driscoll and John Piper (who I tend to see as in the same box) were until recently hugely popular with the UCCF people of my acquaintance (and were read with approval by people in leadership in That Baptist Church I used to go to). UCCF are the most conservative mainstream British evangelicals.

I make no judgement on that.

No, actually, that's a lie. I judge that a lot. But then that's an axe I really have to stop grinding.

[ 10. September 2014, 11:00: Message edited by: Wood ]

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Moo

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Welcome back, Wood!

Moo

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Wood
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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
Welcome back, Wood!

Moo

Thank you, Moo [Big Grin]

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Both organisations are likely to receive similar levels of coverage by christian and more particularly evangelical media.

Except Mars Hill has been routinely attacked within Christian media, particularly since the "Strange Fire" episode. Warren Throckmorton's blog on Patheos has been after MH for months now. There's an article on Rachel Held Evans blog criticizing Driscoll from 2011.

The anti-HTB sentiment within Christian blogs that I've seen largely comes from non-evangelical Anglicans. Mars Hill has been getting the phone calls from inside of the house for some time.

Yes. In the US, the concerns and critiques from within evangelicalism have been increasingly sharp over the last several years.

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
]Fair enough. I spent many years in a church that had abusive practices - reading about Mars Hill practically triggers flashbacks - and came to realize the importance of denominational structures in "emerging" church groups. HTB for all that people complain about it is part of the Church of England and so has to behave in a certain way and be fairly transparent. Your local Redeemed Christian Church of God simply does not have the same oversight.

This.

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Wood
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Yes. In the US, the concerns and critiques from within evangelicalism have been increasingly sharp over the last several years.

Oh, totally, but then both evangelicals and non-evangelicals often have trouble getting their heads around the idea that evangelicalism isn't a monolithic belief structure. Loads of evangelicals have been criticising Driscoll since he set up shop; but many others have made him rich.

It's not right to say that his fans are somehow not evangelicals (I'm not saying you have done that, I hasten to add), but it's something that Christians in general have to tackle. Like it or not, Driscoll is one of ours, and he's a bad'un, and we have to find ways of dealing with that.

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Jengie jon

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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
]Fair enough. I spent many years in a church that had abusive practices - reading about Mars Hill practically triggers flashbacks - and came to realize the importance of denominational structures in "emerging" church groups. HTB for all that people complain about it is part of the Church of England and so has to behave in a certain way and be fairly transparent. Your local Redeemed Christian Church of God simply does not have the same oversight.

This.
Unfortunately I have three letters in response

NOS

Denominational structures give some assurance, but they are NOT 100% guarantee that things cannot go drastically wrong.

Jengie

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[ 10. September 2014, 16:35: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
I know that Mark Driscoll and John Piper (who I tend to see as in the same box) were until recently hugely popular with the UCCF people of my acquaintance

I see Piper and Driscoll as distinct - both of them say things that I would strongly disagree with, but I haven't heard Piper be crass. On a level of finances Piper is almost ascetic, and whilst one might disagree with his scholarship at least there is scholarship to be disagreed with.
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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Yes. In the US, the concerns and critiques from within evangelicalism have been increasingly sharp over the last several years.

Oh, totally, but then both evangelicals and non-evangelicals often have trouble getting their heads around the idea that evangelicalism isn't a monolithic belief structure. Loads of evangelicals have been criticising Driscoll since he set up shop; but many others have made him rich.

It's not right to say that his fans are somehow not evangelicals (I'm not saying you have done that, I hasten to add), but it's something that Christians in general have to tackle. Like it or not, Driscoll is one of ours, and he's a bad'un, and we have to find ways of dealing with that.

Agreed-- 100%. To your point: while many evangelicals have been openly critical for some time, we have to look at the bigger picture and recognize that many of our structures (e.g. encouraging one-off disconnected independent churches w/ leader-chosen, and therefore leader-dissolvable lines of accountability) and subdoctrines (e.g. rightly focusing on grace, but in a way that often romanticizes and celebrates "badness") have contributed to and enabled Driscoll to become so remarkably successful. Driscoll is also a good opportunity for evangelicals to be mindful of the ways we (as every other group) have allowed our core beliefs and doctrines to be subverted by cultural norms of consumerism, celebrity worship, false views of power, etc.

[ 10. September 2014, 16:36: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

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Eutychus
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Well, this is exactly my concern: finding the right ways of dealing with this.

It's not possible to form an evangelical Sanhedrin (another Roger Forster quote from me there).

I have several ideas.

If anyone else is up for exploring this tangent, I'm game to start a new thread.

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
I know that Mark Driscoll and John Piper (who I tend to see as in the same box) were until recently hugely popular with the UCCF people of my acquaintance

I see Piper and Driscoll as distinct - both of them say things that I would strongly disagree with, but I haven't heard Piper be crass. On a level of finances Piper is almost ascetic, and whilst one might disagree with his scholarship at least there is scholarship to be disagreed with.
IMHO Piper is the nicer, more genteel version of Driscoll. Yes, Piper is refined enough not to engage in fart and penis jokes, and trust me, that's a blessing. But Piper engages in the exact same bullying and demonizing tactics towards his "enemies" (i.e. fellow Christians-- evangelicals even-- that disagree with him, usually on his hyper Calvinism). Look at the way he went after Greg Boyd and the open theists, the nature of the way he engaged the conversation compared to those who disagreed with him. He has a similar Alpha Male theology and mindset, a similar way of operating in the world and particularly in the academy that screams Privilege. I would say, in fact, that Piper is all the more dangerous because he knows how to operate in the academic arena, knows how to position himself as a "significant voice" yet undermines the core values of dialogue, diversity, academic freedom and respectful discourse that are the very foundations of scholarly inquiry.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Well, this is exactly my concern: finding the right ways of dealing with this.

It's not possible to form an evangelical Sanhedrin (another Roger Forster quote from me there).

I have several ideas.

If anyone else is up for exploring this tangent, I'm game to start a new thread.

Sure, go for it.

I'd be curious to see what thoughts you have. I'm struggling to imagine what an "evangelical Sanhedrin" would look like, given our tendency toward disconnection. It would have to have some way of avoiding the exact same thing we saw at Mars Hill-- where all the authority and accountability for the group is derived from the celebrity Alpha leader who called it into being, meaning that exact same leader can dissolve/discredit it. So sure, Piper or Warren or Hybels or some other Big Name While Male could certainly call such a Sanhedrin together to rap Markie boy on the knuckles or even shoot him down in a significant way. But the real test of that evangelical Sanhedrin would come when Piper or Hybels or whoever called it forth is the guy sitting in the docket.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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seekingsister
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quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
NOS

Denominational structures give some assurance, but they are NOT 100% guarantee that things cannot go drastically wrong.


Of course, and I didn't mean to imply that having a denominational structure means that there won't be major errors. We all know that the biggest denomination there is has made egregious mistakes and committed unspeakable abuses.

But there is a specific problem around leadership in a lot of these non-denominational churches that spring out of nowhere. They tend to be pastor/evangelist led, and elders are often appointed who either lack the spiritual and/or life experience to adequately guide the church, or who are simply yes-men to the charismatic leader who appointed them. So there is a veneer of oversight that is not actually such.

If we had Vicar Mark instead of Pastor Mark there is no way he'd have been able to bully and silence staff members with such impunity and for so long. Recall this is a man who if giving was down would "see visions" of which of the staff had unconfessed sin, call the person out, and demand confession and repentance or threatened their jobs. And if they left made them some confidentiality agreements not to speak about what happened, or else their health insurance/severance would be cancelled.

I just don't think this stuff flies as easily in churches with established governance structures.

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Byron
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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
I see Piper and Driscoll as distinct - both of them say things that I would strongly disagree with, but I haven't heard Piper be crass. [...]

Now hear this! [Eek!] (Summary: Piper tells women to endure a wifebeater "for a season," though kindly lets 'em off with a single night of being "smacked.") He "clarified" a few years later.
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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:

Look at the way he went after Greg Boyd and the open theists, the nature of the way he engaged the conversation compared to those who disagreed with him.

Well - Pipers main mistake here was to treat the BGC like a confessional denomination which it wasn't really - not every denomination has to cover all things.
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Leprechaun

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# 5408

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quote:
Originally posted by Wood:


No, actually, that's a lie. I judge that a lot. But then that's an axe I really have to stop grinding.

Yes. [Razz]
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Cottontail

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quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
I see Piper and Driscoll as distinct - both of them say things that I would strongly disagree with, but I haven't heard Piper be crass. [...]

Now hear this! [Eek!] (Summary: Piper tells women to endure a wifebeater "for a season," though kindly lets 'em off with a single night of being "smacked.") He "clarified" a few years later.
You could also try this, where Piper says that Jesus sent the tornadoes. Or try reading his book, Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, where he seriously spends time wondering what is the biblical thing to do when a man is obliged to ask a woman for directions.

I am a Calvinist myself. I find in Calvin's theology grace and freedom. I detest the twisted mess that Piper and Driscoll are making of my tradition.

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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."

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Leprechaun

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# 5408

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quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
I know that Mark Driscoll and John Piper (who I tend to see as in the same box) were until recently hugely popular with the UCCF people of my acquaintance (and were read with approval by people in leadership in That Baptist Church I used to go to). UCCF are the most conservative mainstream British evangelicals.


I should add that the other complicating factor here is that not every person knows about every thing that some famous speaker has said. Driscoll was, still is for lots of people who don't follow internet gossip, a young guy with reformed convictions who particularly told young men to step up and stop wasting their lives, told women marriage was a good thing, told older evangelicals to loosen up and engage people they tend to treat like scum, and spoke out very clearly about hidden sins like domestic abuse. I haven't read or watched anything he's done since about 2009, and were it not for the Ship wouldn't know anything about all of this stuff that has come to light, and could happily still have been quoting the useful bits of "Radical Reformission" in training seminars.

So we must be careful about guilt by association. Loads of people are still reading his books from five years ago and thinking "wow, a conservative Christian willing to speak bluntly about things that non-Christians ask me about."

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He hath loved us, He hath loved us, because he would love

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Byron
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quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
I know that Mark Driscoll and John Piper (who I tend to see as in the same box) were until recently hugely popular with the UCCF people of my acquaintance (and were read with approval by people in leadership in That Baptist Church I used to go to). UCCF are the most conservative mainstream British evangelicals.


I should add that the other complicating factor here is that not every person knows about every thing that some famous speaker has said. Driscoll was, still is for lots of people who don't follow internet gossip, a young guy with reformed convictions who particularly told young men to step up and stop wasting their lives, told women marriage was a good thing, told older evangelicals to loosen up and engage people they tend to treat like scum, and spoke out very clearly about hidden sins like domestic abuse. I haven't read or watched anything he's done since about 2009, and were it not for the Ship wouldn't know anything about all of this stuff that has come to light, and could happily still have been quoting the useful bits of "Radical Reformission" in training seminars.

So we must be careful about guilt by association. Loads of people are still reading his books from five years ago and thinking "wow, a conservative Christian willing to speak bluntly about things that non-Christians ask me about."

Great points.

The tragic thing about Mars Hill's implosion is that, before it went off the rails in '07, its ministry had so many strengths.

I'll never agree with Driscoll's fundamentalist reading of the Bible, and the patriarchy and homophobia it spawned, but Mars Hill was connecting with the kind of strutting young guys that other kinds of religion would never get near. Driscoll was getting them to shape up and take responsibility.

For all my other disagreements, I can't take that from him, and I do hope he can get back to that place. 'Cause if he's driven from Mars Hill, Driscoll won't go away, he'll just set up shop elsewhere, this time with even less accountability.

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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
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While I'll grant that just reading Piper and Driscoll of course doesn't make one complicit in the scandals surrounding the two of them, I'm not gonna lie, I thought Piper and Driscoll were both pretty repugnant without any whiff of the scandals surrounding them with the bully boy homophobia, misogyny and that (see posts above for examples). Complementarianism is for my money an utterly vile doctrinal aberration. But then, this might not surprise you.

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Narcissism.

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:

Look at the way he went after Greg Boyd and the open theists, the nature of the way he engaged the conversation compared to those who disagreed with him.

Well - Pipers main mistake here was to treat the BGC like a confessional denomination which it wasn't really - not every denomination has to cover all things.
Even if it were, there is a way to engage debate, and Piper is not it. There is such a thing as respectful disagreement, and Piper is not it. One can disagree even vehemently-- as we do here on the Ship-- and still recognize that the one on the other side of the debate is not your enemy but a fellow Christ-follower who loves Jesus just as much as you do.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7

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Byron: see, problem is, patriarchy, homophobia and misogynistic strutting about don't sound like the byproducts of responsibility.

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Narcissism.

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Byron
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quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
Byron: see, problem is, patriarchy, homophobia and misogynistic strutting about don't sound like the byproducts of responsibility.

They're not, we're all agreed that Driscoll's ministry has spiraled out of control.

Patriarchy (I prefer not to give it the credit of the "complentarian" rebrand) is a vile doctrine. Theological gay-bashing is equally detestable. Sadly, they appeal to many, particularly the frat guys to whom Driscoll ministers.

As I said upthread, I'm a pragmatist. Many of Mars Hill crowd would, I suspect, be worse outside the church's influence. Driscoll got horny young bucks to marry and provide for their families, instead of swagger around as layabout babyfathers. Do I agree with him? Hell no. But I'll accept the good he's done along with all the bad.

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Leprechaun

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quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
While I'll grant that just reading Piper and Driscoll of course doesn't make one complicit in the scandals surrounding the two of them, I'm not gonna lie, I thought Piper and Driscoll were both pretty repugnant without any whiff of the scandals surrounding them with the bully boy homophobia, misogyny and that (see posts above for examples). Complementarianism is for my money an utterly vile doctrinal aberration. But then, this might not surprise you.

Indeed. But "People in conservative evangelical organisation quoted conservative evangelical authors with approval" is hardly news. I haven't met anyone who is a Driscoll apologist who has read Real Marriage or knows of anything that happened thereafter - and that includes all sorts of people you'd consider even more vilely aberrant than him.

Remember this sub-discussion started with "X organisation should apologise for ever quoting him AT ALL in their literature." If you think that's true, there's probably far more to offend you in said literature than the Driscoll quotes.

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Eutychus
From the edge
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Well, this is exactly my concern: finding the right ways of dealing with this.

It's not possible to form an evangelical Sanhedrin (another Roger Forster quote from me there).

I have several ideas.

If anyone else is up for exploring this tangent, I'm game to start a new thread.

Sure, go for it.

Thanks for the encouragement: tangent thread started here [Smile]

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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ChastMastr
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:

*But in fairness, Driscoll did not say women were "penis homes" in so many words. Salon is not exactly a neutral source either.

Here is what he said:

quote:
The first thing to know about your penis is, that despite the way it may see, it is not your penis. Ultimately, God created you and it is his penis. You are simply borrowing it for a while.

While His penis is on loan you must admit that it is sort of just hanging out there very lonely as if it needed a home, sort of like a man wondering the streets looking for a house to live in. Knowing that His penis would need a home, God created a woman to be your wife and when you marry her and look down you will notice that your wife is shaped differently than you and makes a very nice home.
...

Therefore, if you are single you must remember that your penis is homeless and needs a home. But, though you may believe your hand is shaped like a home, it is not. And, though women other than your wife may look like a home, to rest there would be breaking into another man’s home. And, if you look at a man it is quite obvious that what a homeless man does not need is another man without a home.


The commentary on Patheos points this out:

quote:
Notice that all women are portrayed as another man’s penis home, whether or not they are married. This squares with what I was taught—every woman is some man’s future wife, and that man owns her body even before they meet.



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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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Oh, I know it's despicable, but his detractors will assume that because he has been quoted as saying it, he did, in so many words, and his defenders will go around saying "he never said that", and be right. It doesn't help.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Byron
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The ridiculous phrase is a fair summary of the ridiculous things he said. (Never thought that fighting homelessness could take on so negative a light. [Eek!] )

So long as it isn't presented as a direct quote, don't see a problem. [Cool]

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Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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I wonder how Driscoll explains 1 Corinthians 7:4
quote:
For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.
.

Moo

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See you later, alligator.

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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Dear God, people listen to this wanker !?!

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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