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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Trouble at Mars Hill
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Komensky
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# 8675
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Posted
I'm not certain that the 'visions' in Acts are intended to be 'real visions' or instructive narrative idiom. If the former, they are specific. Nowhere (not even in the wildest of medieval visions) do we get the sort along the lines of 'God has sent me a picture of a dog sitting by a door… perhaps this is for somebody here today… maybe God is waiting for you, but you have be the one to open door'. Since this could refer to just about anyone attended a church service, it appears to the congo as a plausible 'vision' from God.
One area of medieval 'gifts' (though they tend not to use that term) was levitation. I'm surprised that given the modern evangelical movement's penchant for supernatural claims that they haven't tried this more often. There are, of course, total nut jobs like Justin Abraham (who claims Christians should be able to breathe under water) or Bill Johnson (who claims that Jesus appeared at his church service as a cloud of glitter—and that he (Johnson) is, among other things, able to raise the dead and one of their numbers claimed to be able to walk on water). We tend to think of these types as fringe lunatics, but Bill Johnson and his associates continue to get invited to HTB (for example) and Nicky Gumbel, with no proof whatsoever, continues to tell 'raised from the dead' stories, or invite people to tell them. This is destructive behaviour.
On and on it goes… and we wonder how the Driscolls of this world get made!
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
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Higgs Bosun
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# 16582
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Posted
Is Driscoll's Mars Hill the kind of place which makes the same claims as Bill Johnson's Bethel?
Posts: 313 | From: Near the Tidal Thames | Registered: Aug 2011
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seekingsister
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# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
One area of medieval 'gifts' (though they tend not to use that term) was levitation. I'm surprised that given the modern evangelical movement's penchant for supernatural claims that they haven't tried this more often. There are, of course, total nut jobs like Justin Abraham (who claims Christians should be able to breathe under water) or Bill Johnson (who claims that Jesus appeared at his church service as a cloud of glitter—and that he (Johnson) is, among other things, able to raise the dead and one of their numbers claimed to be able to walk on water). We tend to think of these types as fringe lunatics, but Bill Johnson and his associates continue to get invited to HTB (for example) and Nicky Gumbel, with no proof whatsoever, continues to tell 'raised from the dead' stories, or invite people to tell them. This is destructive behaviour.
On and on it goes… and we wonder how the Driscolls of this world get made!
K.
This is unfortunate, no question. But I strongly hesitate to put it in the same category as the abuses that went on at Mars Hill.
It's one thing to tacitly support wacky trends in charismata, it's another to support blatant misogyny, excessive control of members and misappropriation of church funds for personal gain. If people are freely choosing to attempt to levitate then that's their choice. MH members were manipulated and lied to about important things like church governance and the destination of their tithe money.
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Komensky
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# 8675
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Posted
I agree that there are degrees, but what is the 'right' amount of deception?
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Has anyone ever encountered a ConCharEvo congo or any Char one that has realised that this is a zero-sum game and they can stop it? That their emperor is naked and it's OK to say that?
Yes. Lots. The vast majority of con-evo churches I have been a part of do not have prophesy (whether of the "picture" variety or verbal) or tongue-speaking in the worship service, for the precise reason that logistically it cannot be "tested" in that setting. While the ecstatic gifts are still a part of the teaching, they are held for something that is usually done in small groups, where that sort of assessment can be done (I agree with a prior poster that the Quakers have particularly helpful rubrics for this).
Of course, I am also aware of many, many con-evo churches that don't have that sort of restraint. They're just not the sort of churches I ordinarily would attend.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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seekingsister
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# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
I agree that there are degrees, but what is the 'right' amount of deception?
When the deception goes to alleged claims of financial impropriety and employee abuse, that to me is more of a problem than clergy who (perhaps foolishly) believe Christians can levitate.
Of course, they aren't mutually exclusive - you find many Word of Faith types who are both claiming to raise the dead AND emptying the wallets of their congregations.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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seekingsister
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# 17707
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Posted
New information out from the fantastic Warren Throckmorton on allegations (an internal memo that has been released) that Mars Hill purposely misled members and other donors about the purposes of"Mars Hill Global" funding. That the majority of funds went to support US operations but were marketed in a way to suggest they were primarily supporting missionaries and church planters in poor countries.
One of the more stomach-turning sections:
quote:
The Global Fund could be beneficial in a number of ways, besides the obvious gain of increased funding:
• For a relatively low cost (e.g. $10K/month), supporting a few missionaries and benevolence projects would serve to deflect criticism, increase goodwill, and create opportunities to influence and learn from other ministries.
• Many small churches who may consider joining Mars Hill hesitate because they do not believe we support “missions.” While we need to continue to challenge the assumptions underlying a claim, the Global Fund would serve as a simple, easy way to deflate such criticism and help lead change in these congregations.
• The ability to communicate and interact with supporters of Mars Hill Global provides an avenue for promoting events, recruiting leaders, and developing Mars Hill core groups in strategic cities.
So a few dollars tossed towards Africa and Asia, to achieve the main goal of expanding the brand and "deflecting criticism" and getting those pesky small churches who actually care about missions to agree to MH takeovers.
This is scary stuff.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
Well damn, doesn't it just keep piling up. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Crucial question now is, what prep's been made for Driscoll's return? His six week sabbatical is near done, and once back at Mars Hill, odds are he'll be psyched up to emulate on of his MMA heroes.
Given how controlling and authoritarian he was before, I dread to think what mood he'll be in now he's become a transglobal laughing stock. Humiliating a bossman like Driscoll is, to put it mildly, crazy dangerous.
For their sake, I hope all the Mars Hill folk who called for his resignation clear out of town for a bit. The best option I can see is the elders persuading him to accept some level of oversight, if only to salvage his reputation. Even that's a longshot.
If he decides to fight it out, God help 'em.
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Mar 2010
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
New information out from the fantastic Warren Throckmorton on allegations (an internal memo that has been released) that Mars Hill purposely misled members and other donors about the purposes of"Mars Hill Global" funding. That the majority of funds went to support US operations but were marketed in a way to suggest they were primarily supporting missionaries and church planters in poor countries.
One of the more stomach-turning sections:
quote:
The Global Fund could be beneficial in a number of ways, besides the obvious gain of increased funding:
• For a relatively low cost (e.g. $10K/month), supporting a few missionaries and benevolence projects would serve to deflect criticism, increase goodwill, and create opportunities to influence and learn from other ministries.
• Many small churches who may consider joining Mars Hill hesitate because they do not believe we support “missions.” While we need to continue to challenge the assumptions underlying a claim, the Global Fund would serve as a simple, easy way to deflate such criticism and help lead change in these congregations.
• The ability to communicate and interact with supporters of Mars Hill Global provides an avenue for promoting events, recruiting leaders, and developing Mars Hill core groups in strategic cities.
So a few dollars tossed towards Africa and Asia, to achieve the main goal of expanding the brand and "deflecting criticism" and getting those pesky small churches who actually care about missions to agree to MH takeovers.
This is scary stuff.
Yeah, the whole fund was a curious mix of stuff-- sort of like the teenager going to the drug store and trying to hide the condoms he's buying in amongst a pile of other stuff. Which makes you wonder... what is it they're trying to hide under the developing world initiatives?
The item that annoyed me the most in the global fund (at least of the things we know about) was funding for Driscoll to do a sermon series about something (can't remember what and don't really care) and write a book on the topic. Isn't sermon prep already part of his job description? Doesn't he gets royalties for all those books he keeps spinning out (and using church funds to market)? Why would we need a fund-raising campaign to support what Markie is already getting paid to do?
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
Mark Discoll has resigned.
In his resignation letter, he fires a few parting shots at those who laid charges, but wow, I wasn't expecting him to walk that easily.
Yes. The cynical non-gracious side of me (which, honestly, can be huge) wonders if that isn't an indication that there is something more here-- things we don't know about which might come out were Mark to stay and deal with the accusations. Not very charitable of me, I admit. The elders' statement does stress that they had found no evidence of any illegal or immoral acts-- but that leaves room for a whole lotta other bad stuff IMHO.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I imagine he will just go start another megachurch, believing everyone will follow him thereby demonstrating his ultimate rightness.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
I imagine he will just go start another megachurch, believing everyone will follow him thereby demonstrating his ultimate rightness.
Probably an accurate prediction. The Driscolls of this world will always go for more—they have an appetite for destruction that knows no bounds.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
Probably an accurate prediction. The Driscolls of this world will always go for more—they have an appetite for destruction that knows no bounds.
I think - for all sorts of reasons - he might find it difficult to start over from scratch. Regardless of that I think it's worth pointing out that the 'appetite for destruction' is actually a gift for building up large institutions coupled with some rather unfortunate personality traits. I don't think - at the end of the day - that the main issue was that he grew Mars Hill to 10K people.
OTOH. I shall again say that I think it's ironic that a lot of the YRR crowd who very much bought into the idea of functional idolatry (that the self identification of yourself with one of your roles could itself be a form of idolatry) also also the sort of people who would byline themselves as "Preacher, Husband, Father".
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
The statement on Mars Hill's site is telling. In it, the Board of Overseers say that, while Driscoll's been "domineering," he's not unfit to be a pastor, as he's "never been charged with any immorality, illegality or heresy"!
That's what I meant when, upthread, I said that Mars Hill has many enablers just as guilty as their erstwhile bossman. If their bar for a pastor is set so low that passing a few narrow, legalistic criteria allows you to leap it, in Driscoll they got what they deserved.
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Yerevan
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# 10383
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Posted
I doubt however that many mainline denominations set the bar much higher in 'defrocking' someone already recognised as a clergyperson. Once you're in you have to behave very badly to be turfed out.
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
Oh no doubt. As shown by the shitstorm at TEC's General Theological Seminary, mainline churches have no reason to be complacent.
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
Interestingly, the updated Mars Hill bylaws (that started a lot of the consolidation) state:
"Resignation is possibly only be a member of the Church who is in good standing and who is not under any disciplinary action."
It appears in this case this hasn't been enforced, as the response from the elders make it sound like MD has also resigned membership (whilst still being under disciplinary action)
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Arminian
Shipmate
# 16607
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Posted
There seem to be quite a few ministries who use the 'promise' of helping the poor to leaver in more funds. Then the orphanages don't get built, the kids school funds don't get paid ....
That's about as low as you can get. Fraudsters have more integrity.
At no point has Driscoll told us what he earnt at Mars Hill. Shame on the brainwashed congregation that let him get away with it.
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
In his resignation letter, he fires a few parting shots at those who laid charges
"Sorrynotsorry."
Every apology I've ever heard Driscoll issue runs about like "Yeah, I'm sorry: sorry you're such an over-emotional pansy!"
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
In his resignation letter, he fires a few parting shots at those who laid charges
"Sorrynotsorry."
Every apology I've ever heard Driscoll issue runs about like "Yeah, I'm sorry: sorry you're such an over-emotional pansy!"
Exactly. Which is of course (like it needs to be spelled out) not an apology.
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Narcissism.
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arminian:
There seem to be quite a few ministries who use the 'promise' of helping the poor to leaver in more funds. Then the orphanages don't get built, the kids school funds don't get paid ....
I can't speak to MH's intent, but it's basic good practice in most places to ring fence funds that have been donated for a specific purpose, and only use them for that purpose. You are right that we should be very wary when this doesn't happen.
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Arminian:
There seem to be quite a few ministries who use the 'promise' of helping the poor to leaver in more funds. Then the orphanages don't get built, the kids school funds don't get paid ....
I can't speak to MH's intent, but it's basic good practice in most places to ring fence funds that have been donated for a specific purpose, and only use them for that purpose. You are right that we should be very wary when this doesn't happen.
That was what made me suspicious about the fund in the first place. Not that they cancelled the proposed conference, but the way the whole fund was a grab-bag of unrelated things (including things that should have already be part of Driscoll's salary, like a sermon series). So that if you want to give to one thing (church planting in the developing world) you have to give to the others (paying Driscoll to write a book he'll undoubtedly get a hefty advance/royalties for).
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Not that they cancelled the proposed conference, but the way the whole fund was a grab-bag of unrelated things (including things that should have already be part of Driscoll's salary, like a sermon series).
Additionally it appears that the practice was for him to keep copyright of all his sermons.
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
Well, how hilariously ironic is that?!
He's welcome to keep them ....who in their right mind would want to plagiarise ;)anything he said in them?
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
Well, how hilariously ironic is that?!
He's welcome to keep them ....who in their right mind would want to plagiarise ;)anything he said in them?
The point is more that in the commercial world (to which megachurches often compare themselves), such work would be classed as 'work for hire', especially in the case where it was commissioned for a particular purpose and thus ownership would lie with the church.
In this case the fee was used to pay essentially for limited use of the sermon series.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
Well, how hilariously ironic is that?!
He's welcome to keep them ....who in their right mind would want to plagiarise ;)anything he said in them?
The point is more that in the commercial world (to which megachurches often compare themselves), such work would be classed as 'work for hire', especially in the case where it was commissioned for a particular purpose and thus ownership would lie with the church.
In this case the fee was used to pay essentially for limited use of the sermon series.
And it means that when he then publishes a collection of his sermons, he keeps all the royalties. This is a practice that's currently under debate, and practices vary. But what seems clearly over the line for me is that Driscoll appears to be not just double-dipping but triple dipping here: for the same "sermon-writing" work, he would get paid three times: once from his church salary, once from the special fund-raising effort, and once again in the book royalties.
The man has chutzpah, you gotta give him that. Think what the results might have been if he'd used his power for good.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
But even in his shame Driscoll has created a legacy that many more honourable men would love to have: successful church plants that have flourished. These churches, in their turn, have benefited from his vision and vigour, but have managed to break free from him now that his flaws have become a liability. They don't have to put up with him in his crabby and blinkered old age!
This looks like a reasonable outcome in several respects.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
Well, the big issue there of course is what kind of church and disciples has he left as a legacy? All churches are flawed, being made up of flawed people, but if his leadership style is shot through Mars Hill's character, it could take sometime to shift.
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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)
Posts: 1399 | From: just north of That London | Registered: Dec 2009
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
These churches, in their turn, have benefited from his vision and vigour, but have managed to break free from him now that his flaws have become a liability.
Against this you have the 1000s of people who walked out when the bylaws were changed in 2007, a large number of whom are no longer in a church of any sort.
Plus all the people who have walked out disillusioned from Mars Hill since, plus those in all the various Mars Hill plants (most of whom were actually satellite campuses with video feeds). Not to mention the fact that most of the campuses will probably have to close given their financial troubles.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
So would you say that his church plants have in fact failed, then? Do they have a future?
Regarding the people who've dropped out of his churches and no longer attend any church, I understand that this can be a problem for any religious movement that grows very quickly, and is a particular problem of revivalistic enterprises. In this case, it's to be hoped that church leaders here can take this opportunity to show that they've sincerely repented of their wrongdoing and want to make amends. Perhaps they need a jubilee period for cleansing and rebirth.
I always think that the video feed practice is a bit odd, and of course I'm not used to it. But I presume that these churches have started using 'real people' to preach now that Driscoll isn't available on a screen.
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I always think that the video feed practice is a bit odd, and of course I'm not used to it. But I presume that these churches have started using 'real people' to preach now that Driscoll isn't available on a screen.
The video feed model is fairly common here in the US among large megachurches. It has it's pluses and minuses. It does allow churches to grow quickly and honestly, keeps overhead down-- something I think we should think about more and more. On the minus, though, it seems to feed into exactly the sort of "celebrity pastor" syndrome that made Driscoll happen. But still I'd say that's the least of the problems affecting the Acts 29 network.
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
So would you say that his church plants have in fact failed, then? Do they have a future?
Regarding the people who've dropped out of his churches and no longer attend any church, I understand that this can be a problem for any religious movement that grows very quickly, and is a particular problem of revivalistic enterprises. In this case, it's to be hoped that church leaders here can take this opportunity to show that they've sincerely repented of their wrongdoing and want to make amends. Perhaps they need a jubilee period for cleansing and rebirth.
Certainly the highs and lows are characteristic of a revivalistic campaign, and honestly, of more established mainline churches as well.
I don't know the answer to your question about the success/failure of the plants, or even of the main "mother" church. My biggest concern is that what they have been fed is what Paul would call a "false gospel". Driscoll's version of "muscular Christianity"-- his vision of Jesus ("I can't worship a Savior I can beat up") seems so far from the real Jesus of the gospels (who was, Mark, beaten up, if memory serves-- for your sake and the sake of all us sinners). So I just don't know what to expect in the aftermath. I think your call for a time of cleansing and rebirth is a good one-- not just for Mars Hill and the Acts 29 network but for all of us (especially us evangelicals) who watched it happen. A time to pray for those now leaderless souls-- that God would, in his mercy, send a witness to the real Christ of the gospels.
That probably sounds a bit full of myself, huh? I dunno-- it's just what's on my heart at this point in time.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
So would you say that his church plants have in fact failed, then? Do they have a future?
And to paraphrase Glinda, "Are you a good church, or a bad church?" Are these wheat, or basically whole sheaves of tares?
I'm not a church at all; I'm Dorothy Gale, from Kanas
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
It is finished, web page
Not unexpected, but somewhat astonishing how quickly the whole entire enterprise collapsed once Driscoll is gone. So many lessons here, most of which have already been mentioned. But the central one to me is the futility of the celebrity pastor model.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Ah, well. Damage limitation, perhaps? From my British perspective, it's impressive that a number of the congregations are still going to continue in existence, even though their identity and structure will change.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
The cynic in me says that dissolving the corporate/governance structure is an attempt to prevent future litigation. Presumably it would be harder to get money out of an entity that longer exists. Rest assured the elders and Mark and anybody who can be held liable are probably transferring their assets..... to their wives... I'd love to see Mrs Driscoll walk with all Mark's moula.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
Rest assured the elders and Mark and anybody who can be held liable are probably transferring their assets..... to their wives... I'd love to see Mrs Driscoll walk with all Mark's moula.
Just bear in mind Commandment 7. I think this comment is OK, and it made me smile, but a bit further down this speculative road (as opposed to things known from the public domain) gets us into the grey area of potentially libelous derogatory comment, rather than legitimate criticism.
Barnabas62, Purgatory Host
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
The Board of Accountability took pains to say that Driscoll was not disqualified from Eldership. They did that for a reason. I think that the dissolution of Mars Hill from a single multi-site church to a number of independent but loosely affiliated 'church plants' is a clever way of leaving the door open for Driscoll to return as an elder of a local church with a Mars Hill provenance or, as I think is more likely, plant a new church - under a new set of by-laws - which is loosely connected to the former Mars Hill churches.
[ 01. November 2014, 21:18: Message edited by: daronmedway ]
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
...probably in California.
now that was just mean.
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
quote:
"Ultimately, the success of this plan, and the future viability of each of these new local churches rest solely on all of us continuing to be faithful in supporting Jesus’ mission through our attendance and continued giving," wrote Bruskas
Yeah, keep your bum on that seat and keep giving us money. Right, that's the most important part of being faithful in supporting Jesus' mission.
I don't think so.
[ 01. November 2014, 22:30: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
...probably in California.
now that was just mean.
I thought it was funny! And even funnier when I found they've already set up shop in Orange County.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
...probably in California.
now that was just mean.
I thought it was funny! And even funnier when I found they've already set up shop in Orange County.
Nothing that happens in Orange County surprises me.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I love this website! That's a very funny series of posts. Made me laugh, anyway.
But seriously, folks. Is there something in the water in Orange County? How about the New Inspirational Church of Hunter Pence?
Nope. Probably the wrong team ...
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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