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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Is this music video racist?
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
If there's a power imbalance, you don't solve it by playing tit for tat. You solve it by saying "yes, you can share in this so long as I can share in that".
This isn't about sharing. This is about one group playing a style associated with another group whilst simultaneously acting out a set of negative stereotypes associated with another group (see Iggy Azalea comments upthread).
If there isn't a power imbalance, you also don't solve it by pretending it doesn't exist.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
If there's a power imbalance, you don't solve it by playing tit for tat. You solve it by saying "yes, you can share in this so long as I can share in that".
This isn't about sharing.
Most of the thread contributors have been talking about it as if it's EXACTLY about that.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
You want to share? Share opportunity. Share equal treatment.
You’re shifting the goalposts a fair bit there.
Can we not take it as a given that this is a discussion between non-racists, that we would all like to see a truly equal society (even if we differ about how to get there from here), and in our personal and professional lives try to treat people fairly?
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
This is about one group playing a style associated with another group whilst simultaneously acting out a set of negative stereotypes associated with another group (see Iggy Azalea comments upthread).
Can you unpack that a bit? What do you mean by “one group” doing something “whilst simultaneously” portraying negative stereotypes? Is the “one group” white people in general, or do you have a specific set of musicians in mind?
I don’t think anyone has made any sort of convincing case that Iggy Azalea (about whom I know nothing) is acting out negative stereotypes. But even if she is, I really don’t see how that has any bearing on how Taylor Swift ought to dance. No one denies that there are white racists. What we’re arguing about is (1) whether a white artist ought to allow their style to be influenced by black artists; and (2) whether they are de facto racist if they do.
I’m slightly disappointed that no one answered my question about how has the most right to enjoy African-American dancing – a black Briton or a white American? I asked it as a direct consequence of a real life event, not as a trap question, but it seems to me that it’s a dilemma for your side.
What I mean is, that absent any racial connotations, it is obvious that there’s no serious objection to Brits and Americans drawing on one another’s culture. It would be impossible to disentangle the extremely fruitful cultural sharing between those two countries. It would be absurd to suggest that a (black) Londoner can’t dance to the same tune as a (black) New Yorker.
The anti-‘appropriation’ side therefore seems to me to be committed to the view that culturally, a black American has more in common with a sub-set of foreigners than they do with most of their fellow Americans. That seems to me to be rather unlikely, and it would not surprise me if many Americans of all colours found it offensive. It would be saying in effect that black culture, though ostensibly produced by Americans, isn’t, and can’t be, truly American culture. Black Europeans might be appropriate consumers of it, but white Americans (that is, most Americans) are not. That, surely, cannot be tolerable.
None of that is to argue against sensitivity, respect, commercial fairness, artistic integrity and racial equality. None of us want to see cultural influences being used to excuse racial stereotyping or abuse. But the solution cannot be to tell people who aren’t racists, and whom we have no fair reason to think are racists, that certain cultural expressions are unavailable to them because of their race.
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
ChastMastr: No, no, LOL, I'm Jewish by blood down the matriarchal line of descent
D'oh! Sorry, I didn't take this possibility into account.
quote:
ChastMastr: Come over some time, we'll nosh! ![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
That would be great. (Although I have no idea what 'to nosh' means, so I'm a bit worried what I just assented to ![[Biased]](wink.gif) )
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
I don’t think anyone has made any sort of convincing case that Iggy Azalea (about whom I know nothing) is acting out negative stereotypes.
What would a convincing case look like to you?
quote:
But even if she is, I really don’t see how that has any bearing on how Taylor Swift ought to dance.
I've not been commenting on Taylor Swift - the OP seemed very much along the lines of 'look how terrible this is - don't you all agree'.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
You want to share? Share opportunity. Share equal treatment.
You’re shifting the goalposts a fair bit there.
I don't think so. This is exactly why these things are perceived as a problem.
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
Can we not take it as a given that this is a discussion between non-racists, that we would all like to see a truly equal society (even if we differ about how to get there from here), and in our personal and professional lives try to treat people fairly?
I thought this is what we were doing. We are discussing what our perceptions are and making the case for them.
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
What we’re arguing about is (1) whether a white artist ought to allow their style to be influenced by black artists; and (2) whether they are de facto racist if they do.
Yes, we are. But this cannot be separated from the larger issue because the larger issue is why the smaller issues cause ire.
The issue has gone beyond Swift because because pretty much no one here thinks she was being racist.
ISTM, we have, as a group, said yes to 1), with provisions, and no to 2). The discussion has been the provisions to 1).
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
I’m slightly disappointed that no one answered my question about how has the most right to enjoy African-American dancing – a black Briton or a white American? I asked it as a direct consequence of a real life event, not as a trap question, but it seems to me that it’s a dilemma for your side.
Black British musical culture is in large part African-American Music culture. It is more than this, yes, but it is an integral part of. Black Americans tend not to see beyond colour. In America, there is much less a distinction than elsewhere. Black is Black is Black is Black.
IME, most Americans, regardless of colour, would not see a Black Briton as capable of appropriation. To them, it would be their culture.
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
It would be saying in effect that black culture, though ostensibly produced by Americans, isn’t, and can’t be, truly American culture. Black Europeans might be appropriate consumers of it, but white Americans (that is, most Americans) are not.
This is what has been said, both explicitly and covertly. Briton is not free from this either, BTW.
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
That, surely, cannot be tolerable.
It is emphatically not tolerable.
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
None of that is to argue against sensitivity, respect, commercial fairness, artistic integrity and racial equality. None of us want to see cultural influences being used to excuse racial stereotyping or abuse. But the solution cannot be to tell people who aren’t racists, and whom we have no fair reason to think are racists, that certain cultural expressions are unavailable to them because of their race.
I do not think anyone here has said this. Several of us have said that it is contextual.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Black British musical culture is in large part African-American Music culture. It is more than this, yes, but it is an integral part of. Black Americans tend not to see beyond colour. In America, there is much less a distinction than elsewhere. Black is Black is Black is Black.
IME, most Americans, regardless of colour, would not see a Black Briton as capable of appropriation. To them, it would be their culture.
Cough, splutter, cough. I know the British still think that they won the War of 1812, but. No. Just no.
There is not one black culture in America. Black is not Black is not Black is not Black.
Most Americans do see Black Britons as capable of appropriation, particularly if they earn large sums of money doing things that others have earned very little money doing.
Anyone remember the Spice Girls? (I was too old to be in their musical target audience, but I remember laughing my ass off at the movie).
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Black British musical culture is in large part African-American Music culture. It is more than this, yes, but it is an integral part of. Black Americans tend not to see beyond colour. In America, there is much less a distinction than elsewhere. Black is Black is Black is Black.
IME, most Americans, regardless of colour, would not see a Black Briton as capable of appropriation. To them, it would be their culture.
Cough, splutter, cough. I know the British still think that they won the War of 1812, but. No. Just no.
There is not one black culture in America. Black is not Black is not Black is not Black.
I did not say there was one black culture in America, I said there is less distinction. In the UK, most black people know where they came from; West Indies, Africa, Jamaica, etc. and have ties to these cultures. So the potential for diversity within is much greater than it is for America, where most do not know. And the vast majority of internal migration within America is relatively recent, again giving more commonality than difference.
And my personal experience is Americans in general, black people included, project more than strictly warranted.
BTW, Black is Black is Black is Black. No, a song is not a study, but this one demonstrates the POV.
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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