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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: IS have turned me into a hawk
Beeswax Altar
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Yeah but some of us (and I mean me) are further along on the progressive arc than others. [Biased]

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-Og: King of Bashan

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JoannaP
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quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
This something that people have been calling for, for some time now - that The Muslims should speak up against terrorist activity. Will this request actually make any difference?

Probably not. Those who are prepared to believe that not all Muslims approve of ISIL knew it anyway and those who are not will not accept this any more than all the previous condemnations, as Deano demonstrates.

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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin

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Martin60
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Further than me I'm sure. Along the conservative wing of the same arc. But even if I'm equally fecklessly further along than you on the postmodern, is God with me more than you? Jesus was inevitably way behind and yet infinitely ahead, above. Are we differentiated from each other on the arc of grace? Justice? Kindness? We're both in the gutter there compared to where He was, let alone is.

I KNOW God is with you no less than He is with me Beeswax Altar. That you are in Him no less.

And so I don't feel as passively aggressive to you as my sinful words (for in the multitude of words there wants not sin - and I am THAT old school) might indicate.

Not at all at this juncture.

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Love wins

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Barnabas62
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Link to new IS thread now closed.

The new discussion started by Robert Armin contains some new material but will work better in continuation with the content of this thread.

Barnabas62
Purgatory Host

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Martin60
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Well said Byron, on the previous thread. We are massively complicit in this but I'm glad of Brenda's link as that shows an enlightened Arab view as well.

As an armchair pacifist I'm having it all ways of course, blessing Caesar for his F22s, 18s, 16s, Rafaeles and Tornadoes whilst longing for another radical, inclusive, sacrificial, forgiving, merciful way.

We'll carry on bombling (not a spelling mistake) which it least isn't as insane as mounting full scale invasions.

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Love wins

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Well said Byron, on the previous thread. We are massively complicit in this but I'm glad of Brenda's link as that shows an enlightened Arab view as well.

As an armchair pacifist I'm having it all ways of course, blessing Caesar for his F22s, 18s, 16s, Rafaeles and Tornadoes whilst longing for another radical, inclusive, sacrificial, forgiving, merciful way.

We'll carry on bombling (not a spelling mistake) which it least isn't as insane as mounting full scale invasions.

The problem is however that bombing will only do part of the job. It may hit the high-value IS assets and their current command & control centres, but the latter can be recreated simply and quickly (get on line, buy mobile phones, place contract with ISP) which leaves tens of thousands of ISIL soldiers on the ground, and it would be hard to eradicate 50% of them without massive collateral damage, if we are to rely on air power alone.

Far better in the long term to discourage people from joining and supporting ISIL. Many believe that the current air strikes will do that but it is a false hope born of an unwillingness to commit ground troops.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Byron
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
The problem is however that bombing will only do part of the job. It may hit the high-value IS assets and their current command & control centres, but the latter can be recreated simply and quickly (get on line, buy mobile phones, place contract with ISP) which leaves tens of thousands of ISIL soldiers on the ground, and it would be hard to eradicate 50% of them without massive collateral damage, if we are to rely on air power alone.

Far better in the long term to discourage people from joining and supporting ISIL. Many believe that the current air strikes will do that but it is a false hope born of an unwillingness to commit ground troops.

An excellent start would be to strip citizenship from anyone who fights for ISIS.

There's treaties against rendering anyone stateless, but legal sleight-of-hand can do an endrun around those: ISIS claims to be a state, well fine, they can be the ones to issue their "citizens" with passports (that every nation on earth will ignore).

Some jurisdictions, like the U.S., require a treason conviction, but automatic prosecution ought to have the same effect.

If terrorism becomes not a bloody gap-year, but a lifetime stranded in the desert/locked in a supermax penitentiary, it may just concentrate a few minds.

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Stetson
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I thought about posting this on the "Do you really mean to say that?" thread in Heaven, but the topic seemed rather uncelestial.

Obama: "Brutality of terrorists in Iraq and Syria forces us to look into the heart of darkness."

Hard to believe anyone would think that an appropriate metaphor to justify western intervention in the third world.

[ 27. September 2014, 17:08: Message edited by: Stetson ]

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Byron:

If terrorism becomes not a bloody gap-year, but a lifetime stranded in the desert/locked in a supermax penitentiary, it may just concentrate a few minds.

I have some sympathy with this approach - and certainly governments should make it much more clear that where war crimes and crimes against humanity (which would include rape) have been committed the perpetrators will be pursued into old age if necessary.

That said, the number of western members of ISIL is relatively small percentage wise, so it's only a very small part of the solution.

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JoannaP
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quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
An excellent start would be to strip citizenship from anyone who fights for ISIS.

There's treaties against rendering anyone stateless, but legal sleight-of-hand can do an endrun around those: ISIS claims to be a state, well fine, they can be the ones to issue their "citizens" with passports (that every nation on earth will ignore).

Some jurisdictions, like the U.S., require a treason conviction, but automatic prosecution ought to have the same effect.

If terrorism becomes not a bloody gap-year, but a lifetime stranded in the desert/locked in a supermax penitentiary, it may just concentrate a few minds.

But what about those who get out there and discover that it is nothing like they have been told and want to come home now? I would be wary about doing anything that makes it hard for them to come back and discourage others from going.

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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin

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deano
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quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
An excellent start would be to strip citizenship from anyone who fights for ISIS.

There's treaties against rendering anyone stateless, but legal sleight-of-hand can do an endrun around those: ISIS claims to be a state, well fine, they can be the ones to issue their "citizens" with passports (that every nation on earth will ignore).

Some jurisdictions, like the U.S., require a treason conviction, but automatic prosecution ought to have the same effect.

If terrorism becomes not a bloody gap-year, but a lifetime stranded in the desert/locked in a supermax penitentiary, it may just concentrate a few minds.

But what about those who get out there and discover that it is nothing like they have been told and want to come home now? I would be wary about doing anything that makes it hard for them to come back and discourage others from going.
If you make a grown up decision about grown up thing then you have to deal with the consequence. This is one such decision.

Let's make it really hard to return and it may just stop some from going in the first place.

In fact let's bring back the old concept of "outlawry" for people who go out there with the aim of fighting for IS. If people realise that if they go they will not have any protection under the law if they return, again perhaps it will stop some from going in the first place.

Let's get creative with this.

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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot

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Martin60
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Let's get REALLY creative, radical, Christlike and welcome back all such prodigals by running to embrace them.

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Love wins

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Mudfrog
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Let's get REALLY creative, radical, Christlike and welcome back all such prodigals by running to embrace them.

Is that before they 'come to their senses' or after?

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Let's get REALLY creative, radical, Christlike and welcome back all such prodigals by running to embrace them.

Is that before they 'come to their senses' or after?
It's to encourage them to come to their senses. And Christ.

Where's your evangelism? On holiday?

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(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Gamaliel
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I hate to say this but whilst I'm cautiously in support of military action against ISIS - part of me thinks this will only hasten the day when they start to commit acts of terrorism on these shores.

I suspect, though, that this will happen sooner or later - airstrikes or no airstrikes.

My concern would be that airstrikes will simply drive them to ground. They may have a short-time effect - and there are accounts which certainly suggest that the US airstrikes have prevented them advancing into new areas or carrying out attacks on refugees and other communities.

Longer term there has to be some kind of hearts-and-minds thing ... something has to be done to deter young Muslims from jihadist-chic and considering it cool to join nut-job groups like ISIS.

Essentially, the solution has to come from within the tradition itself. I don't know how feasible that is ...

I s'pose an analogy could be drawn from something a Christian mental health professional once told me. She said that whereas at one time the prevailing wisdom across the health professions when confronted with someone who was clearly a religious nutcase of some kind would have been to endeavour to direct them away from religion per se.

These days, she says, the prevailing practice is to attempt to direct them to more moderate expressions of whatever religion they profess or - if they're Christian, to more moderate denominations or traditions.

In her experience - and I'm not making value judgements here - most people she's had dealings with in the mental health sphere have come from Pentecostal or Jehovah's Witness backgrounds. Their Pentecostalism or their JW-ism isn't responsible for their mental health issues, but it often doesn't help either.

So what she and her colleagues will attempt to do isn't to drive them away from their faith altogether - but offer access to other forms of faith that are less likely to bring out or exacerbate their problems ... so they might direct a Pentecostal patient to a Methodist setting, say - or a JW patient to a more mainstream group ...

Of course, there are those who would argue that Islam is intrinsically violent ...

I'm not sure it's that simple. There must be more moderate Sunnis around who can get through to some of these people.

The prospect of engagement in wars in and around Iraq for years and years to come doesn't fill me with any enthusiasm. But we have to be pragmatic.

I'd prefer to see ISIS/ISIL dealt with by the Iraqis, the Kurds and so on ... but until then ...

I'm also very suspicious of the Saudis in all of this.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

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Robert Armin

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In recent days I've been very encouraged by the number of Imans in Britain I've heard publicly denouncing ISIS as being un-Islamic. Also the "Not In My Name" campaign which many young Muslims in London have got involved in. Several Muslim friends have been posting this cartoon on Facebook with approval.

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

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Sir Pellinore
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I think the last two posts, one by Gamaliel and one by Robert Armin, are particularly pertinent. Our Australian PM - and I'm not a great admirer of his in general - quite correctly refers to the Islamic State as "a death cult". Several young(ish) Australians have been attracted to IS, some as vocal verbal and net supporters, others, more chillingly, as foot soldiers in Syria and Iraq. There was also a disturbing incident in Melbourne recently where two policemen appear, after sustaining serious knife injuries, to have had to shoot a young supporter of IS. This brings to mind the murder of Lee Rigby in the UK earlier. Something has happened with the rise of IS. Gamaliel, you should read Bob Baer, a former CIA operative on the dangers of trusting the Saudis.

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Well...

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Stetson
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Chris wrote:

quote:
That said, the number of western members of ISIL is relatively small percentage wise, so it's only a very small part of the solution.
Personally, I think this whole "young western jihadis" meme is pretty much just a gimmick promoted by ISIS itself("Look, we've got your sons, bwahaha!!"), and hyped up by western media and governments for their own interests.

According to the New York Times, the number of Americans fighting in Syria is 100, at most. Since America is the most populous of the western countries, we can likely assume that the UK, Australia, are contributing even less than that.

So, as a maximum estimate, we're probably talking about a couple of thousand westerners fighting in Syria(the NYT gives the total number of foreign fighters in Syria as 12 000, but that would include other Muslim and arab countries).

In other words, if you live in a medium sized city, there are probably more people walking into your local Wal-Mart in one day than there are westerners fighting for ISIS. Sure, some of those westerners might come back to their homelands and set off bombs in the subway, but since a lot of them seem to have been indoctrinated over the internet anyway, it's not like they needed the middle-eastern caliphate to become homicidal maniacs. All they need is internet access to whoever cranks out the ISIS propaganda.

Long and the short, of all the supposed rationales for bombing Syria and Iraq, preventing the emergence of an army of radicaized western youth is among the lamest.

[ 28. September 2014, 03:41: Message edited by: Stetson ]

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Byron
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quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
But what about those who get out there and discover that it is nothing like they have been told and want to come home now? I would be wary about doing anything that makes it hard for them to come back and discourage others from going.

Instinctive response: screw 'em, they made their bed, let 'em lie in it.

If I temper that, some kind of parole system could be devised, in which readmittance is conditional on good behavior, and subject to restrictions on liberty like electric monitoring, random searches, and de-radicalization programs.

Canada, Australia and Britain are adopting a policy with similar effect: stripping passports without stripping citizenship. This might be the best way forward.

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Personally, I think this whole "young western jihadis" meme is pretty much just a gimmick promoted by ISIS itself("Look, we've got your sons, bwahaha!!"), and hyped up by western media and governments for their own interests.

According to the New York Times, the number of Americans fighting in Syria is 100, at most. Since America is the most populous of the western countries, we can likely assume that the UK, Australia, are contributing even less than that.

So, as a maximum estimate, we're probably talking about a couple of thousand westerners fighting in Syria(the NYT gives the total number of foreign fighters in Syria as 12 000, but that would include other Muslim and arab countries). ...

Sorry, Stetson. It would be nice and reassuring to think that, but alas, I think you're almost certainly wrong.

I can't speak for Australia. However, young Moslems in Western Europe have a completely different social profile from in your country. They aren't the children of doctors, IT specialists etc. They tend to be the children and grandchildren of poor peasants who came from remote parts of in the UK, Pakistan or Bangladesh, France, Algeria and Germany, Turkey. They were recruited to do manual work. The comparison in your country is probably more with Mexicans/Latinos.

Some are families who have succeeded. Many are not. They and their children are still poor, half-educated, and more likely to be unemployed. So they are a fertile ground for extremists to recruit in.

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quetzalcoatl
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I thought that research showed the opposite to that, that the British youth prone to Islamist conversion, were more likely to be from affluent and well-educated families. However, I've lost my references, so will have to look them up again.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Sir Pellinore
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quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
...Personally, I think this whole "young western jihadis" meme is pretty much just a gimmick promoted by ISIS itself("Look, we've got your sons, bwahaha!!"), and hyped up by western media and governments for their own interests.

According to the New York Times, the number of Americans fighting in Syria is 100, at most. Since America is the most populous of the western countries, we can likely assume that the UK, Australia, are contributing even less than that...

I think the reason "we"and I speak specifically of the US and Australia, because we always tend to go along with you because our Armed Forces are so closely integrated, are bombing the Islamic State in Iraq (Australia is a little more wary about Syria) is because our "friends and allies", primarily Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States are worried because IS are another Wahhabi lot, but, unlike the Saudis, IS are deadly serious (pun intended). If IS are successful in establishing their "caliphate" long term - and they just might - it will redraw the map of the Middle East and threaten Israel and Iran (one a major ally, the other a balancer of Sunni Islam in the region). Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Jordan could be gone. We in Australia are in a slightly different position to the States because we are so close to Indonesia. After the Bali bombings Indonesia is vitally concerned about Islamic militancy. We have had a few recent incidents here which lead me to believe we do have some alienated nut cases who could be dangerous as the recent police shooting of a young man in Melbourne and a few arrests in Brisbane (where I live) and Sydney show. Some Lebanese-Australians are quite high up in IS. They are dangerous and their return, or the return of people like them would be a security risk. You only need a few nutcases to do something like the London Bombings or murder Lee Rigby. I am always careful when I hear the Security Services wanting more powers which, unchecked, could certainly set us back regarding civil liberties. Fortunately, there are elements in the Australian parliament who will oppose this. The situation is probably more serious then you think but I think, certainly here, we seem to be on top of it. I view your President Obama and General Dempsey with great respect. I do not think they will kid you or lead you down the garden path. Thankfully, this is not the America of George W Bush.

[code]

[ 28. September 2014, 16:02: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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Well...

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
According to the New York Times, the number of Americans fighting in Syria is 100, at most. Since America is the most populous of the western countries, we can likely assume that the UK, Australia, are contributing even less than that.

A year ago, MI5 estimated that there were 200 British fighters in Syria. That number is presumably higher now.
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quetzalcoatl
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I'm hearing lots of complaints from Arab and Muslim posters on the internet, that Western bombing in Syria, is helping Assad. It would be ironic if more people are killed in Syria by his barrel bombs, because the opposition is being weakened by Western air-strikes.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Lucia

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The Tunisian President recently said in an interview that choosing between IS and the Assad regime was like choosing between smallpox and the plague. They are both bad, they both need to go.
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rolyn
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Maybe the West should bite the bullet and take on Syria like is has Afghanistan and Iraq, regime change the lot. It easily has the resources but understandably lacks the will. There's the risk of a messy outcome, heightening tension with Russia, rattling China, etc. etc. War only ever seems to bring more war yet avoiding it often seems nigh on impossible.

As for the matter of Utopia-seekers, naive revolutionaries and gap-yearers joining IS jihadist butchers, I don't see much sympathy being expended for them when they are caught up in the Allied assault.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Brenda Clough
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I am an American, and have two kids in the US Army. I can tell you that there is no appetite at all in the US for overseas adventurism. No Congress will vote for war, and they will certainly never pay for it. You'll find a couple of right-wing chicken hawks yelling for blood. We ignore them.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Maybe the West should bite the bullet and take on Syria like is has Afghanistan and Iraq, regime change the lot. It easily has the resources but understandably lacks the will. ...

Iraq and before that Viet Nam, demonstrates that whatever resources one might think one has, that is a delusion.

You can only sort out the problems of another country if you are both able and prepared to invade it, occupy it, turn it into your colony, and rule it indefinitely under the Pax whatever-you-may-call-it. Fortunately, that is not acceptable these days.

The corollary, though, is that there are some problems not even hegemonic states or the United Nations can sort out.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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Sir Pellinore
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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Maybe the West should bite the bullet and take on Syria like is has Afghanistan and Iraq, regime change the lot...

After the "regime change" in those two countries, which seems to have caused and many problems as it "solved", would you really, really want that? We could, quite conceivably look at a depleted and Balkanised Syria: Christians gone and separate Alawi and Sunni "states". You are quite right about Western jihadists, as the strikes bite and as, and if, the Islamic State is crushed quickly, they should be very, very afraid. Known perpetrators of atrocities will get swift and heavy justice if they are not killed outright in the fighting.

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Well...

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Maybe the West should bite the bullet and take on Syria like is has Afghanistan and Iraq, regime change the lot. It easily has the resources but understandably lacks the will. There's the risk of a messy outcome, heightening tension with Russia, rattling China, etc. etc. War only ever seems to bring more war yet avoiding it often seems nigh on impossible.

As for the matter of Utopia-seekers, naive revolutionaries and gap-yearers joining IS jihadist butchers, I don't see much sympathy being expended for them when they are caught up in the Allied assault.

Well, regime change in Iraq led to a huge power vacuum, currently being filled by - IS; and in Afghanistan, I believe the Taliban are on the way back. So all that went well.

I'm not sure about the 'Allied assault' - in Iraq, this will have to steer very carefully through Iraqui politics, since clearly many Sunni are alienated from Baghdad. You can't just use shock and awe on Sunni villages.

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Stetson
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I don't have time right now to reply to the various comments on my "foreign jihadi threat exaggerated" post. Just for clarification, though...

quote:
I view your President Obama and General Dempsey with great respect.
I'm not American. I'm Canadian. Not that I'm particualarly sensitive about national identity(Koreans assume I'm Amercian all the time), but at least two posters have made the error since I wrote that post, so I though I'd clear that up.
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no prophet's flag is set so...

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I am an American, and have two kids in the US Army. I can tell you that there is no appetite at all in the US for overseas adventurism. No Congress will vote for war, and they will certainly never pay for it. You'll find a couple of right-wing chicken hawks yelling for blood. We ignore them.

What changed? The Iraq and Afghan wars seemed quite popular. I thought they were considered won.

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Dave W.
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I am an American, and have two kids in the US Army. I can tell you that there is no appetite at all in the US for overseas adventurism. No Congress will vote for war, and they will certainly never pay for it. You'll find a couple of right-wing chicken hawks yelling for blood. We ignore them.

What changed? The Iraq and Afghan wars seemed quite popular. I thought they were considered won.
Perhaps you should re-evaluate your sources. According to Gallup, the last time a majority of Americans thought the Iraq war was not a mistake was July of 2005.

However, contra Brenda, they also report that 60% of Americans approve of current US military action against ISIS in Iraq and Syria.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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It may be spin in light of the midterm elections you are having? War, bombing etc being merely another poltical tool? Nice to have a thoroughly despicable enemy to unite around.

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Palimpsest
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I'm not noticing any unity.
Congress is carefully avoiding any rush to take charge by declaring war but also complaining that Obama isn't doing enough.

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Brenda Clough
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And they are not voting any money. It is money that is where the heart and balls of Congress is; their words mean less than nothing. Unless and until they put dollars behind something, it is hot air. Remember what Deep Throat said? Follow the money.

Nobody had the time of day for Iraq. I believe that the judgment of history, upon which GWB is hoping for vindication, will actually condemn that little adventure as a pure boondoggle.

Afghanistan was accepted as necessary (because of 9-11), but there is no interest at all in making it into an American fiefdom. Which is why we're leaving.

I think the general sense is, their circus, their monkeys. Solve your problems, folks. You're grown-ups; if your country is a toilet bowl then do something about it. We're done.

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Dave W.
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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
And they are not voting any money. It is money that is where the heart and balls of Congress is; their words mean less than nothing. Unless and until they put dollars behind something, it is hot air. Remember what Deep Throat said? Follow the money.

In fact the US is currently conducting airstrikes in both Iraq and Syria.
quote:
Nobody had the time of day for Iraq.
Again according to Gallup, in March of 2003 75% of Americans approved of sending troops to fight in Iraq.
quote:
I think the general sense is, their circus, their monkeys. Solve your problems, folks. You're grown-ups; if your country is a toilet bowl then do something about it. We're done.
Yes, how careless of the Iraqis to get themselves invaded by the US.
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Sioni Sais
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Their circuses, their monkeys, and no ringmaster. I could say something about clowns and those who put their heads in lion's mouths, but that would be to stretch metaphors.

As for the war in Iraq being won I have to ask if that refers to the same Iraq of which ISIL controls a third. The West pulled out of Afghanistan so recently it's hard to say whether the structures in place will last.

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Sir Pellinore
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quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
I'm not American. I'm Canadian. Not that I'm particualarly sensitive about national identity(Koreans assume I'm Amercian all the time), but at least two posters have made the error since I wrote that post, so I though I'd clear that up.

Oops! Apologies. A bit like calling me a Kiwi. I wouldn't be offended, but...

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Well...

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Their circuses, their monkeys, and no ringmaster. I could say something about clowns and those who put their heads in lion's mouths, but that would be to stretch metaphors.

As for the war in Iraq being won I have to ask if that refers to the same Iraq of which ISIL controls a third. The West pulled out of Afghanistan so recently it's hard to say whether the structures in place will last.

The war in Iraq was won so well, that it destroyed large parts of the machinery of state. Somehow, US intelligence thought that dismantling the army and the Ba'ath party would leave everything nice and neat, whereas in fact, it left a huge hole, or probably a group of holes, which were filled by various militias, extremist groups, and so on. Even now, various ex-army officers and ex-Ba'athists can be found in various groups, probably including IS.

There is one comic note in all that - Paul Bremer subsequently wrote an article, entitled 'How I didn't dismantle Iraq's army'. It's online somewhere.

Talking about Iraq as a toilet bowl is quite funny also - the US shat in it, and left.

[ 29. September 2014, 12:09: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]

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Brenda Clough
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It doesn't matter. There is still no appetite in the US to do more. So what are you going to do about it?

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
It doesn't matter. There is still no appetite in the US to do more. So what are you going to do about it?

I'm not sure about that, an awful lot of people keep saying that it does matter a lot, and they seem to be gearing up for military activity.

What am I going to do about it? Unfortunately, my days of driving a tank are over now, so I shall exempt myself from combat.

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Maybe the West should bite the bullet and take on Syria like is has Afghanistan and Iraq, regime change the lot. ... There's the risk of a messy outcome

No shit .. I can only think you must be joking. At this point Bin Laden is looking like a fucking genius compared to Rumsfeld/Bush et al.

What were the odds of a caliphate back in 2000? Now we have a bunch of failed states right along the route - with radical jihadists controlling large swathes of territory.

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Dave W.
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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
It doesn't matter. There is still no appetite in the US to do more.

Not so. The US is bombing now in Iraq and Syria, and 60% of Americans approve.
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Sir Pellinore
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The complete balls up after the erroneous (based on false intelligence) invasion of Iraq by the (well meaning) Bremner et al is not a direct cause of the rise of the Islamic State but a contributing factor IMO. An important one nonetheless. Someone like "the Caliph" was bound, eventually, to rise as a counterweight to the secularism of the Ba'ath Party and the fact the Sunnis were heavily outnumbered by Shia. Al Quaida was a contributing factor as was the various forms of nutcase "Muslim" ideology which has floated around the Middle East for a few years now.

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Well...

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deano
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
It doesn't matter. There is still no appetite in the US to do more.

Not so. The US is bombing now in Iraq and Syria, and 60% of Americans approve.
For those with faith in air power, below is a quote taken from Tom Clancy's "Armoured Cav" book, a non-fiction book that examines the branch of the military that uses tanks like the Abrams M1 main battle tank..

quote:
“When I went into Kuwait I had thirty-nine tanks," one captured Iraqi battalion commander said. "After six weeks of air bombardment, I had thirty-two left. After twenty minutes in action against the M1s, I had none.”
Six weeks of aerial bombing left the Iraqi's largely unscathed. Boots on the ground finished the job in twenty minutes.

Air power is what you do when you have to be seen to be doing something as opposed to actually doing something.

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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot

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Martin60
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Hamburg. The Falaise Gap. Dresden. Tokyo. And your favourites: Hiroshima. Nagasaki.

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Love wins

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deano
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Hamburg. The Falaise Gap. Dresden. Tokyo. And your favourites: Hiroshima. Nagasaki.

Of which only the last two stopped the fighting. The rest were, at best, merely a way of demoralising the people or reducing the capacity to wage war.

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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore:
The complete balls up after the erroneous (based on false intelligence) invasion of Iraq by the (well meaning) Bremner et al is not a direct cause of the rise of the Islamic State but a contributing factor IMO. An important one nonetheless. Someone like "the Caliph" was bound, eventually, to rise as a counterweight to the secularism of the Ba'ath Party and the fact the Sunnis were heavily outnumbered by Shia. Al Quaida was a contributing factor as was the various forms of nutcase "Muslim" ideology which has floated around the Middle East for a few years now.

Well, you can trace Islamism at least back to the 1940s, when Sayyid Qutb was beginning to theorize about the degeneracy of the West, and the importance of Islamic values.

But the various Arab revolutions went down a secularist path, and people like Qutb fell foul of them - Qutb himself being executed by Nasser.

But the Arab secularist path became tainted by corruption and tyranny - Assad is a remnant of it. Eventually, there was a power vacuum, as the Arab left also collapsed, or was physically wiped out.

In this context, the rise of Islamism seems inevitable; but of course, the US helped matters considerably, by dismantling the Iraqui army and the Ba'ath party; an insurgency was then inevitable.

The tragedy seems to have been that some Sunni tribes eventually turned against Al Qaeda, and allied with the US - but this political capital was squandered by Maliki, who rejected an alliance with them.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore:
Someone like "the Caliph" was bound, eventually, to rise as a counterweight to the secularism of the Ba'ath Party and the fact the Sunnis were heavily outnumbered by Shia. Al Quaida was a contributing factor as was the various forms of nutcase "Muslim" ideology which has floated around the Middle East for a few years now.

Of course, and there are nutjobs ranting all over the place as there have been for some time - the sudden DE-stabilisation of various regimes mad it possible for them to come to power though.

[ 30. September 2014, 15:35: Message edited by: chris stiles ]

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