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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: IS have turned me into a hawk
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Maybe the West should bite the bullet and take on Syria like is has Afghanistan and Iraq, regime change the lot. ... There's the risk of a messy outcome
No shit .. I can only think you must be joking.
I wasn't joking, merely trying to hold on to the increasingly strained notion that Western action taken as a response to 9/11 has actually achieved something good.
No one will ever know where we'd be now if the US had done the Christian thing of turning the other cheek over 9/11. 'Ouch Bin! Oh look, there's some more skyscrapers to fly jets into if you want'
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
No one will ever know where we'd be now if the US had done the Christian thing of turning the other cheek over 9/11. 'Ouch Bin! Oh look, there's some more skyscrapers to fly jets into if you want'
There is a range of options between that and invading a so called 'Axis of Evil' (which has now created an 'Arc of Instability') and destabilising half of the ME in the process.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
I daresay there are, I'm no expert. Still it comes back to bombs bombs bombs. Bush did the hatchet-job, then Obama was supposed to be able to sweet talk islamic nuts -- no chance.
They'll be ground troops in next as IS cannot be destroyed from the air alone. We've already got our hands dirty in the ME so I see little option but to carry on the post 9/11 strategy, and it looks like Obama doesn't either.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
I take the points of quetzalcoatl and chris stiles. The Arab World has a long history of being under colonial rule (including that of the Ottoman Turks which was no less colonial for having a Caliph in Istanbul). There is much debate as to what would have happened if the Western powers had not betrayed the Arabs with Sykes-Picot and the Balfour Declaration which led to the creation of Israel. The Arab World was/is rife with conspiracy theories and memories of various "betrayals" (sometimes ones of centuries ago). Iraq and much response to the Arab Spring was inept as was the West's non-action on the first real recent armed insurrection against Assad. The roots of the current Sunni militancy, in Wahhabism and the Deobandi madrasas of South Asia (which have a long history of contact and cross-fertilisation), have been around for a long time. A veritable witch's brew, with various toxic ingredients, had been fermenting for a long, long time. The Islamic State is its nightmarish result.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
Islamism strikes me as another impossible dream, rather like Marxism, which seeks to rein in the messy hedonism of human beings into a strict discipline. Thus generally they have railed against Western degeneracy, but also against the evils of Arab secularists, the corrupt playboys of the various kingdoms, and of course, the Shia.
I suppose they became popular partly through being repressed, imprisoned, tortured, and executed, by many Arab regimes, hence the martyr identity.
So maybe, rather like Marxism, the only way to drain Islamism of its virulence, would be to have a moderate Islamist state, and see how it fared. But then it would probably become non-moderate.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
So maybe, rather like Marxism, the only way to drain Islamism of its virulence, would be to have a moderate Islamist state, and see how it fared. But then it would probably become non-moderate.
But surely there are already lots of self-styled Islamic states of varying degrees of moderateness, from Malaysia and Morocco (reasonably moderate) to Iran and Saudi Arabia (only moderate if you compare with IS)?
Posts: 1092 | From: Hants., UK | Registered: Jan 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
So maybe, rather like Marxism, the only way to drain Islamism of its virulence, would be to have a moderate Islamist state, and see how it fared. But then it would probably become non-moderate.
But surely there are already lots of self-styled Islamic states of varying degrees of moderateness, from Malaysia and Morocco (reasonably moderate) to Iran and Saudi Arabia (only moderate if you compare with IS)?
Yes, there are plenty of Islamic states, but are there any of them Islamist? I suppose the obvious one is Iran, but that is also Shia, so will be discounted by the Sunni Islamists.
But then I think it is an impossible dream, like a Marxist state, or a Christian state, without repression.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Actually, when I think about Sayyid Qutb, the early theorist of Islamism, he argues against the concept of the state as unIslamic. 'A true Islamic polity would have no rulers' (Wiki).
At the same time, they obviously advocate the use of force, so again, rather like Marxism, they must anticipate the 'withering away' of the state, once humans have accepted Islam. Of course, many of them don't!
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore:
I take the points of quetzalcoatl and chris stiles. The Arab World has a long history of being under colonial rule (including that of the Ottoman Turks which was no less colonial for having a Caliph in Istanbul). There is much debate as to what would have happened if the Western powers had not betrayed the Arabs with Sykes-Picot and the Balfour Declaration which led to the creation of Israel. The Arab World was/is rife with conspiracy theories and memories of various "betrayals" (sometimes ones of centuries ago). Iraq and much response to the Arab Spring was inept as was the West's non-action on the first real recent armed insurrection against Assad. The roots of the current Sunni militancy, in Wahhabism and the Deobandi madrasas of South Asia (which have a long history of contact and cross-fertilisation), have been around for a long time. A veritable witch's brew, with various toxic ingredients, had been fermenting for a long, long time. The Islamic State is its nightmarish result.
It is more complex than this, as I know you know. I am currently reading A Peace to End All Peace which is a good history of WW1 and the formation of the modern middle east. Birds without Wings is a recommended novel about a Greek boy and a Turkish boy at the end of WW1 and into the 1920s. It gives an excellent personal view of part of the ethnic and language issues, applicable beyond the specifics of the characters.
Quote from: "Since those times of whirlwind, the world has learned over and over again that the wounds of the ancestors make the children bleed."
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolynI daresay there are, I'm no expert. Still it comes back to bombs bombs bombs. Bush did the hatchet-job, then Obama was supposed to be able to sweet talk islamic nuts -- no chance.
Not really - there was no need to invade Iraq - for instance - which didn't contain AQ until the West rolled up. Having invaded it - "Mission Accomplished" was too hastily declared and there was attempt to no re-create civil society that might have prevented it's further atomisation.
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore:
The roots of the current Sunni militancy, in Wahhabism and the Deobandi madrasas of South Asia (which have a long history of contact and cross-fertilisation), have been around for a long time.
Which were supported by governments that are notionally supported by the west because they saw the opportunity to export troublemakers to other countries. Some of this isn't even ancient history.
Qatar, Turkey and Saudi Arabia have at various times supported groups close to the Al Nusra Front in Syria. Armaments supplied by all three have ended up in the hands of Al Nusra.
Saudi Arabia continues to shelter radical clerics who support Al Nusra and ISIS because they are anti-Shia.
ISIS funds itself in part by selling oil - a lot of which ends Turkey.
The invasion of Iraq has only succeeded in turning it into Lebanon circa 1980s, with every government in the region support various proxies at various and playing their own games there - most of which are at odds with the stated policies of the US et al.
Treating this as a historically inevitability absolves too much.
[ 30. September 2014, 17:58: Message edited by: chris stiles ]
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Yes, I think the proxy element has been very dangerous and destructive, and has got out of control. In a sense, the West is joining in, as we now apparently support various Kurdish groups, some Shia militias (some of whom have a very unsavoury reputation), and also moderate rebel groups in Syria, whoever they are.
Every group in the area now seems to be a proxy for somebody else; I feel sorry for ordinary people who are getting caught up in this mess.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Yes, there are plenty of Islamic states, but are there any of them Islamist? I suppose the obvious one is Iran, but that is also Shia, so will be discounted by the Sunni Islamists.
It all depends on your definition of Islamist. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Certainly, the AKP government in Turkey describes itself as Islamist.
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
chris stiles: ISIS funds itself in part by selling oil - a lot of which ends Turkey.
This part I don't understand. Is this oil sold through legal channels? Or on the black market? Surely, Turkey has an interest in stopping this.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
LeRoc, LeRoc, LeRoc ... you are too pure for this world.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
chris stiles: ISIS funds itself in part by selling oil - a lot of which ends Turkey.
This part I don't understand. Is this oil sold through legal channels? Or on the black market? Surely, Turkey has an interest in stopping this.
Turkey's oil production peaked over two decades ago and while it produces some oil and has reserves they are low compared to its use.
What Turkey does have is a substantial role transporting oil. Lots of oil comes through the Bosphorus and it borders a number of oil exporters. Once oil is in Turkey how does one identify it as having come in legitimately? In the case of ISIS, the oil is the proceeds of crime and as such will be sold at below market value; who is going to turn cheap oil down?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
Certainly, the AKP government in Turkey describes itself as Islamist.
Really? They're much more like the Islamic version of Christian Democracy. I know some pretty non-religious Turks who vote for them.
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Once oil is in Turkey how does one identify it as having come in legitimately?
You can identify crude fairly easily via chemical composition.
Additionally they'll usually be labelled in some way for ease of refining.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Once oil is in Turkey how does one identify it as having come in legitimately?
You can identify crude fairly easily via chemical composition.
Additionally they'll usually be labelled in some way for ease of refining.
How exact is "fairly easily". Does it identify one well from another a mile down the road? ISIS won't worry about ease of refining - they are selling cheap gear, so some false labelling can look after the second issue.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
But how does this oil enter Turkey? Through pipe lines? On trucks? Does Turkey have no way of knowing that this oil comes from ISIS?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
How exact is "fairly easily". Does it identify one well from another a mile down the road?
Yes, potentially. Even once blended in order to be sold - it should be obvious that more crude of a certain blend is reaching the market than should be there.
quote:
ISIS won't worry about ease of refining - they are selling cheap gear, so some false labelling can look after the second issue.
This isn't just selling the odd knock off video recorder in your local pub. With the volumes they'll be shifting their secondary sellers will worry about labelling - as it ultimately hits their margins, and thus it becomes ISIS' problem too.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Possibly telling remarks from Netanyahu.
Interesting that this comes at a time when it's pretty much become the conventional wisdom that the west should form at least a default alliance with Iran against ISIS.
Netanyahu's comments would indicate to me that Israel is not singing from quite the same hymnal as the US on this.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
Certainly, the AKP government in Turkey describes itself as Islamist.
Really? They're much more like the Islamic version of Christian Democracy. I know some pretty non-religious Turks who vote for them.
Yes. AIUI the official AKP view is that, as their political views are informed by their Islamic faith, they are Islamist. Which is one perfectly valid definition of the term. In the West, we tend to assume that Islamist implies extremist/radical views but it ain't necessarily so.
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
A very pure Islamist view is that all human structures are untrustworthy, and we should only rely on God. In practice, the interpretation of this seems to vary - for example, many jihadist groups reject democracy, as they say it is a prime example of a human construction.
Various Islamic states and govts are also criticized under this rubric also, and should be overthrown.
In fact, I have seen this termed Islamic anarchism, as it would seem to end up with a kind of stateless existence. However, other groups and parties don't go this far, so you can have a moderate stance, that life should be governed according to Islam, but that non-Islamic influences are allowed, e.g. democracy.
It seems ironic that IS are called Islamic State then; but the biggest irony is that they are prepared to use force to make others conform.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
An interesting example of the developments in Islamism, occurred in Egypt, after the Nasser revolution (1952), when the monarchy was overthrown, probably with the help of the CIA!
Anyway, initially there was some contact between the group of officers around Nasser and the Muslim Brotherhood, but quite quickly, the MB denounced Nasser, as he pursued a secularist and indeed socialist path.
Various attempts were made on his life, and members of MB were imprisoned and tortured.
A group of leaders were later executed, including Qutb.
I think at some point the MB renounced violence, and Sadat released many from jail. Of course, recently, they formed a short-lived government.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I posted on the Hell thread about the apparent approval of killing by drones at much higher numbers and the horror of beheadings, Link to article
Might we be over-reacting to a violent group here? Just because they are sensational?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Does anyone have an idea how this oil selling by ISIS works? It's quite a large amount of oil, so I find it difficult to believe that this can happen without it being detected. They have to transport this oil from A to B, and they are surrounded by areas controlled by their enemies. My gut feeling is that it would be rather easy to discover how these transports are going, and to stop them. Why doesn't that happen?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think at some point the MB renounced violence, and Sadat released many from jail. Of course, recently, they formed a short-lived government.
The MB has never officially supported violence - but the organisation does not have total control over the actions of its members.
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Does anyone have an idea how this oil selling by ISIS works? It's quite a large amount of oil, so I find it difficult to believe that this can happen without it being detected.
Because the Turks chose to turn a blind eye. You are a Turkish politician, you can stir up trouble in your unstable South and ruffle feathers by cracking down on black market oil and raising the price of fuel. Or you can ignore it - what do you choose? That's before you count the possibility of falling foul of the deep state (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susurluk_scandal#People_involved)
The Turks are an easy target, the Saudi's are far more culpable.
Bombs at their very *best* provide room for a political solution. Short of more commitment than the lobbing a few daisy cutters over northern iraq everyone involved is going to continue to play both sides against the middle (Which includes the US - which has flip flopped on which bits of Al Nusra are extremist).
It's not like ISIS have large armoured columns laid out neatly waiting for bombs to arrive. A lot of the bombing once obvious military assets (radar stations, airfields etc) are degraded will be dual purpose. Power stations, bridges etc.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
chris stiles: Because the Turks chose to turn a blind eye.
Okay, I'm trying to understand this. The way I see it, the Turkish government isn't happy with ISIS at its southern border, right? And just to remind you, they're very close to the border.
So, it seems to me to be in the government's interest to crack down on illegal oil sales to hinder ISIS. But what you are saying is the government doesn't want to do that, because cracking down on these oil sales might cause trouble in the South of the country.
It seems that the Turkish government has to choose between two evils here: crack down on illegal oil sales and cause damage to ISIS, or don't crack down and have a bit more peace in your southern region. I would say that it's rather clear which would be the bigger and most evil of these threats.
Also, to whom in Turkey is ISIS selling this oil? They can't very well sell rather crude oil to individuals who'll use it in their cars; the buyer needs to be someone with access to a refinery. That would be easy discover, right?
So, who are these people in the South of Turkey who buy this oil? I understand there are a large number of Kurds there, but they won't buy it because ISIS is their enemy. So, who is buying it? Turks who support ISIS? Unscrupulous merchants who don't care who's selling?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
So, who is buying it? Turks who support ISIS? Unscrupulous merchants who don't care who's selling?
I think your last sentence tells nearly everything we need to know about the region since oil was found to be in the area. Unscrupulous = merchants. It's the reason for the past, current and future wars, conflicts and at the root of everything.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Why would the Turks be anti-IS? Like all governments they are anti anything that disturbs the status quo. The status quo of the Kurds in particular.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
prophet: Unscrupulous = merchants. It's the reason for the past, current and future wars, conflicts and at the root of everything.
Okay, so suppose that there are unscrupulous oil merchants in the South of Turkey who buy crude oil from whoever sells it to them. They don't care from whom, as long as they get their money. Ok, I get that.
What they do is clandestine, or maybe borderline clandestine. What I can imagine is that as long as what they do doesn't go against what the Turkish rulers want, as long as it stays below the radar, they get away with it. They just bribe a few border officials who look the other way, etc.
But what happens if what they do goes against what the rulers want? Against what Erdogan wants? I'd bet that he'd be down on these merchants like a ton of bricks. That's his style.
So, what it comes down to is: what is Erdogan's position? I'm seeing conflicting reports on this.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Quadruple think.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Possibly telling remarks from Netanyahu.
Interesting that this comes at a time when it's pretty much become the conventional wisdom that the west should form at least a default alliance with Iran against ISIS.
Netanyahu's comments would indicate to me that Israel is not singing from quite the same hymnal as the US on this.
It's important to remember that Netanyahu has to keep the more extreme coalition partners, and the more extreme Likudniks, on his side. They put quite a number of songs into Israel's current hymnal. Netenyahu is very much a moderate in Likud terms and has to keep the focus on what is a direct and immediate threat to Israel, and ISIS isn't seen as such to many in Israel.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Credible analysis, Sioni.
Anyway...
Beheadings Not Limited To Islamic State
Kinda encapsulates what I regard as the somewhat overwrought response to the decapitations carried out by ISIS.
In addition to the article's point that decapitations have been carried out by pretty respectable players withing living memory(eg. Americans during the Gulf War), I'd also point out that ISIS itself has likely done some things that at least equal beheading in their brutality, but don't get anywhere near the attention.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
This could be important news - one of the big Sunni tribes in N. Iraq has joined with Kurdish fighters in pushing IS from the border post of Shabia. The Shammar tribe is one of the biggest, and this could herald a crucial development, if other tribes pull back from their support for IS. This would recall the previous fight against AQ by some of these tribes.
Reports say that the US is sending Special Forces to see the lie of the land in the Sunni tribal areas; but many tribes are very suspicious of any involvement of Shia militias, who have been involved in massacres.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/09/30/uk-mideast-crisis-idUKKCN0HN0FI20140930
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
The Turks are in.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
The Turks are in.
Note that the Turks have plenty of trouble with Kurds within its own borders, so co-operation between Kurdish 'armies' in Northern Iraq (within which the Kurds have some measure of self-government) will be limited by the Turk's (and the Syrian's, and Iranian's) fear of an independent Kurdistan.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Oh aye.
And Alan Henning ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) and his poor family.
You'll have to wipe his feet with your tears Jihad John.
After he's wiped yours with his.
[ 03. October 2014, 23:35: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Beheadings Not Limited To Islamic State
Kinda encapsulates what I regard as the somewhat overwrought response to the decapitations carried out by ISIS.
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Our Saudi friends? Home of Wahhabism. Bob Baer a tough old CIA line operative distrusts them. "Sleep with strange people and you better take precautions".
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Good article. Shame about the meretricious porn. Ah well, something else to lay at the foot of the cross. My meretricious reflexes.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Good article. Shame about the meretricious porn. Ah well, something else to lay at the foot of the cross. My meretricious reflexes.
If you're talking about the adorning TNA photos, that kinda stuff is pretty common on Korean sites. Sorry about that, maybe I'll put a warning next time I link to the Herald.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Still a good article. I saw that arse in church today ... intrusive thinking has PERFECT timing.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Various voices are now being raised, saying that air-strikes are not enough. This follows the well-known pattern of mission creep - you start off with A, but then A is described as inadequate, so you move to B, but then, strangely enough, B isn't quite right, but look, we have the perfect solution, C.
But the voices may well be right, since IS seem difficult to shift so far, as for example, round Kobani.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Credible analysis, Sioni.
Anyway...
Beheadings Not Limited To Islamic State
Kinda encapsulates what I regard as the somewhat overwrought response to the decapitations carried out by ISIS.
In addition to the article's point that decapitations have been carried out by pretty respectable players withing living memory(eg. Americans during the Gulf War), I'd also point out that ISIS itself has likely done some things that at least equal beheading in their brutality, but don't get anywhere near the attention.
It's false equivalence, as the Saudis aren't an expansionist power tear-assing around the Middle East, and attempting to retake the territory of the caliphate. Nor are they engaged in systematic genocide.
Saudi Arabia's been given far too easy a ride on Wahhabism and the movement's links with terrorism, but that shouldn't detract from the uniquely clear and present dander that ISIS represent.
[ 06. October 2014, 14:33: Message edited by: Byron ]
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Byron wrote:
quote:
It's false equivalence, as the Saudis aren't an expansionist power tear-assing around the Middle East, and attempting to retake the territory of the caliphate. Nor are they engaged in systematic genocide.
Yes, but it seems to me that public revulsion against ISIS has very much focussed on the nature of their brutality("OMG, these guys are beheading people!!"), rather than simply their overall expansionist agenda.
I mean, how many people have you heard saying "Holy cow, these guys might get Jordan next"? I haven't really noticed that as a major theme.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Isn't it also that they're beheading Westerners? They've been beheading Syrians for a long time, but that didn't cause such as a ruffle.
I'm not being critical either, since I can see that it really brings it home when it's a guy from Manchester or wherever, who's being beheaded, rather than a guy from Aleppo.
BBC now warning that Kobane is probably going to fall to IS, despite air-strikes; the black flags are beginning to fly in parts of the town. The Turks are sitting there in their tanks, watching it happening. What next?
[ 06. October 2014, 17:31: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Yes, but it seems to me that public revulsion against ISIS has very much focussed on the nature of their brutality("OMG, these guys are beheading people!!"), rather than simply their overall expansionist agenda.
I mean, how many people have you heard saying "Holy cow, these guys might get Jordan next"? I haven't really noticed that as a major theme.
Expansionism is a major factor IMO. Newswires are buzzing with stories of ISIS' advances.
Most everyone knows that Saudi Arabia is a brutal autocratic regime, but it's stable and contained within its borders. Economic and diplomatic pressure can be applied. ISIS don't give a damn, and their savagery and instability are such that even al-Qaeda's disowned them.
When an organization's too brutal for frickin al-Qaeda, you know it's a unique level of bad.
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Isn't it also that they're beheading Westerners? They've been beheading Syrians for a long time, but that didn't cause such as a ruffle.
I'm not being critical either, since I can see that it really brings it home when it's a guy from Manchester or wherever, who's being beheaded, rather than a guy from Aleppo.
BBC now warning that Kobane is probably going to fall to IS, despite air-strikes; the black flags are beginning to fly in parts of the town. The Turks are sitting there in their tanks, watching it happening. What next?
It may have brought it home, but the Saudis have meted out their brand of "justice" to Westerners without calls for intervention, and the fate of the Yazidis has been much publicized, and many Christians are showing solidarity with their Middle Eastern sistren and brethren.
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Mar 2010
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Various voices are now being raised, saying that air-strikes are not enough. This follows the well-known pattern of mission creep - you start off with A, but then A is described as inadequate, so you move to B, but then, strangely enough, B isn't quite right, but look, we have the perfect solution, C.
Ahem...
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
For those with faith in air power, below is a quote taken from Tom Clancy's "Armoured Cav" book, a non-fiction book that examines the branch of the military that uses tanks like the Abrams M1 main battle tank..
quote:
“When I went into Kuwait I had thirty-nine tanks," one captured Iraqi battalion commander said. "After six weeks of air bombardment, I had thirty-two left. After twenty minutes in action against the M1s, I had none.”
Six weeks of aerial bombing left the Iraqi's largely unscathed. Boots on the ground finished the job in twenty minutes.
Air power is what you do when you have to be seen to be doing something as opposed to actually doing something.
![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
It isn't mission creep unless you are deluded enough to believe air power alone can achieve things. It can't.
It gets used as a sop to those "latte liberals" who whinge that "something must be done", and "won't someone think of the children?".
Mission creep? No. Sorry, it's just the START of the mission. If you think that it's the whole mission then wakey-wakey!
Do any of you want to fix this? If so are you willing to countenance huge numbers of western soldiers invading from Turkey and fighting on the ground?
If you are not willing to countenance that then it will not be fixed.
WARS CANNOT BE WON BY AIR POWER.
I want all of you to write that down and try to remember it please.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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