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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: IS have turned me into a hawk
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
It gets used as a sop to those "latte liberals" who whinge that "something must be done", and "won't someone think of the children?".
This is a fairly big misrepresentation. Plenty of 'latte liberals' have been commenting on the foolishness of bombing ISIS - intervention has been pushed by the same lot who got us into Iraq in the first place.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
It gets used as a sop to those "latte liberals" who whinge that "something must be done", and "won't someone think of the children?".
This is a fairly big misrepresentation. Plenty of 'latte liberals' have been commenting on the foolishness of bombing ISIS - intervention has been pushed by the same lot who got us into Iraq in the first place.
We can argue all day about the scale of it. I say it's accurate and you say it ain't. C'est la vie.
How is it to end over there? Is it going to take a new Empire? Carving the whole middle east, Afghanistan, Pakistan and others up between the West, Russia, India and China? Is that what it will take? Another agreement between gentlemen to divide the oil up and to make sure that the natives stay under control?
Because if it is let's stop messing about and get on with it. It doesn't matter how long it will take as they will be our little fiefdoms to deal with.
If that is the end game and we are putting off the inevitable by pandering to fundamentalist islam then lets stop that and get on with it.
[ 07. October 2014, 19:28: Message edited by: deano ]
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
We can argue all day about the scale of it. I say it's accurate and you say it ain't. C'est la vie.
Except there are very few liberals arguing for bombing alone, Obama's action was largely supported by right wing republicans and it was a Conservative government (the one you praise in the other thread for doing the things you want) who started bombing ISIS.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Byron
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# 15532
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Posted
Since they reflexively oppose war of any kind, surely "latte liberals" are irrelevant to the merits of airstrikes?
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Who's we deano? And how? The Turks don't have the stomach for empire so the ''Fertile' 'Crescent'' ... must partition and Balkanize for a century yet. And the Islamic reformation will come a century or ten at the most a hundred will come after that. Patience.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
Well, the Turks seem to be exasperating plenty of people, by still sitting there on the border in their tanks, watching the battle in Kobane. I suppose they are wary of getting involved in Syrian territory. Probably also something to do with the Kurds, since they would be helping them, and Turkey has a great fear of Kurdish advancement.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Probably also something to do with the Kurds, since they would be helping them, and Turkey has a great fear of Kurdish advancement.
Or more perversely, this way ISIS take care of a group of Kurds without Turkey having to lift a finger.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Matt Black
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# 2210
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Posted
Playing for high stakes, then, since they risk a significant domestic Kurdish backlash if Kobane falls with the inevitable massacre following.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Probably also something to do with the Kurds, since they would be helping them, and Turkey has a great fear of Kurdish advancement.
Or more perversely, this way ISIS take care of a group of Kurds without Turkey having to lift a finger.
Well, some cynical journalists are saying that Assad has not been fighting IS, since he is trusting that they will deal with most other rebel groups, and then the West will deal with IS, leaving Assad in sole charge. Result!
Of course, such machinations are common - didn't the West support Saddam against Iran, and therefore made muted protests about Iraqui poison gas, used against Kurds (Halabja)?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I think Turkey may be in some kind of conundrum. Who does it prefer close to its borders? The Kurds? Assad? ISIS?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I think Turkey may be in some kind of conundrum. Who does it prefer close to its borders? The Kurds? Assad? ISIS?
That's probably correct, but also the consequences of going into Syrian territory and beginning a ground war with IS, are completely unpredictable. For example, it's possible that IS would take that as license to move into Turkish villages also.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
Yeah, no chance that Turkey wants a border war with ISIS. Right now, sounds like the Obama admin. wants Turkey to put boots on the grounds 'cause it's unwilling to. Turkey is well within its rights to tell 'em to take a long jump.
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Byron: Turkey is well within its rights to tell 'em to take a long jump.
Of course. I'm just trying to gauge Turkey's position here. Which I think ultimately comes down to Erdogan's position.
quote:
quetzalcoatl: For example, it's possible that IS would take that as license to move into Turkish villages also.
In this case, NATO's Article 5 becomes interesting.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
quetzalcoatl: For example, it's possible that IS would
take that as license to move into Turkish villages also.
Unlikely - they probably know just how far they can go before being pounded by the Turkish military. There are suggestions btw that this was part of the quid pro quo of releasing Turkish hostages.
quote:
In this case, NATO's Article 5 becomes interesting.
Article 5 is usually observed most often in its breach.
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
chris stiles: Article 5 is usually observed most often in its breach.
I don't understand what you're saying. Can Article 5 be breached? It has only been invoked once.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
IS won't attack Turkey. It would be overwhelmed, extirpated in the border region for a depth of 50 miles. Turkey would HAVE to do that, but it doesn't want to. Why do you think Turkey is killing Kurds who want to go south? That would be an invasion FROM Turkey showing that Turkey cannot control its sovereignty. THAT is paramount. Turkey WANTS IS on its border. The Kurds can go to Iraq where the Americans will look after them. Those that don't will be repressed as usual. And Turkey will let America bomb IS from Turkey whilst being on cordial terms with IS just like it was with Iraq under American aerial interdiction from Turkey. IS will smile and nod at Turkey and take it, knowing that America will give up on IS in Syria as soon as Kobane falls. This can go on for a decade easily. Three. Four. Till climate change and the tipping point come.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Turkey DOES want a border zone in depth, but will not go it alone and IS will NOT provoke that. Why won't Washington back that?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Komensky
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# 8675
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Posted
Let's not forget Turkey's (not so secret) support of Hezbollah because the latter had an anti-PKK stance.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Turkey has a lot of groups South of its border that it doesn't like: the Kurds, Assad and now ISIS ... I have the feeling that until now, the tactic has been to try to play one group against another. I don't think they'll be able to keep it up in the long run.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
They need to take a leaf out of Britain's book ...
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard: This can go on for a decade easily. Three. Four. Till climate change and the tipping point come.
Will catastrophic rises in sea levels, regular battering by Super Storms and severe droughts stop humans from warring ?
I very much doubt it.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Indeed not. They'll make it worse. It was an ironic paly on Kingdom Come.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
How is it to end over there? Is it going to take a new Empire? Carving the whole middle east, Afghanistan, Pakistan and others up between the West, Russia, India and China? Is that what it will take? Another agreement between gentlemen to divide the oil up and to make sure that the natives stay under control?
Because if it is let's stop messing about and get on with it. It doesn't matter how long it will take as they will be our little fiefdoms to deal with.
If that is the end game and we are putting off the inevitable by pandering to fundamentalist islam then lets stop that and get on with it.
This is just a ridiculous idea, and I cannot think you're serious. At all. Unless you're trying to spread Nixonian, Reagonian, Bushonion versions of democracy which believes that colonial violence is the way to do it. Just read "profit" for "democracy" and you're in business. Literally.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Let's get REALLY creative, radical, Christlike and welcome back all such prodigals by running to embrace them.
Is that before they 'come to their senses' or after?
It's to encourage them to come to their senses. And Christ.
Where's your evangelism? On holiday?
Erm, is it the church's job to convince young Jihadis that they should not be committing acts of treason against their birth-country? Is it our job to convince them that their political actions are wrong?
Yes, they might be impressed with the love and friendship of individual Christians but they hate Christianity with a passion that borders on total obsession and they hate Britain and the West with murderous intent.
Have you ever tried to speak to a young and passionate Muslim about your faith in Jesus?
It's like juggling cats!
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Why would you?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Why would you?
I was trying to answer the question about where was my evangelism. The truth is that I would no more argue with a Muslim about Jesus then I would with a Jehovah's Witness. These people are passionate about their beliefs and the risk of hostility - especially from a young radicalised Muslim - is so great that it would make an attempt at conversion entirely counter-productive; hence my question about waiting until they 'come to their senses' a la prodigal son, before we go out to 'welcome them back'.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
How is it to end over there? Is it going to take a new Empire? Carving the whole middle east, Afghanistan, Pakistan and others up between the West, Russia, India and China? Is that what it will take? Another agreement between gentlemen to divide the oil up and to make sure that the natives stay under control?
Because if it is let's stop messing about and get on with it. It doesn't matter how long it will take as they will be our little fiefdoms to deal with.
If that is the end game and we are putting off the inevitable by pandering to fundamentalist islam then lets stop that and get on with it.
This is just a ridiculous idea, and I cannot think you're serious. At all. Unless you're trying to spread Nixonian, Reagonian, Bushonion versions of democracy which believes that colonial violence is the way to do it. Just read "profit" for "democracy" and you're in business. Literally.
No I'm perfectly serious... about asking the question and debating the point. I'm not advocating it, I am asking if that is what will need to happen to protect western interests in the future.
I'm also not sure about democracy being a euphemism for profit, which is what I think you're implying. When I vote nobody gives me any money. Perhaps it's different where you come from.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
American democracy is a euphemism for profit. It can't be anything else given the crazy levels of private funding that support every election campaign. Not that the UK is immune to lobbyists with wads of cash, but it's not so blatant and it's relatively under wraps to the extent that things that aren't for profit also have a chance.
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Mudfrog: Have you ever tried to speak to a young and passionate Muslim about your faith in Jesus?
I have.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Mudfrog: Have you ever tried to speak to a young and passionate Muslim about your faith in Jesus?
I have.
Then you'll know how firm they are in their convictions about the truth of Islam and the 'error' that lies in the Bible as we have it today. They are immoveable.
Radicalise them as well and that's it!
It's not a question of graciously seeking them out and talking to them; it really is a matter of waiting until they come to their senses because you will never convince them.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Mudfrog: Have you ever tried to speak to a young and passionate Muslim about your faith in Jesus?
I have.
Then you'll know how firm they are in their convictions about the truth of Islam and the 'error' that lies in the Bible as we have it today. They are immoveable.
Radicalise them as well and that's it!
It's not a question of graciously seeking them out and talking to them; it really is a matter of waiting until they come to their senses because you will never convince them.
firstly, thanks for the reply -
Now, which error is that in the Bible? The one that man does not possess the strength to overcome his sin and only God can do that? That to me is the core message. It isn't for me to move them, it's for me (us even) to present this to them and yea, even unto atheists who I find far more intractable, though I admit never having had to deal with anyone pointing an AK47 at me.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Mudfrog: Have you ever tried to speak to a young and passionate Muslim about your faith in Jesus?
I have.
Then you'll know how firm they are in their convictions about the truth of Islam and the 'error' that lies in the Bible as we have it today. They are immoveable.
Radicalise them as well and that's it!
It's not a question of graciously seeking them out and talking to them; it really is a matter of waiting until they come to their senses because you will never convince them.
My local Baptist church is doing good work with Muslims in the community. This has led to some Muslims attending church, and Muslim teens getting involved in the openly Christian-led youth activities. (The minister is himself a convert with a Muslim father, although I don't think his upbringing was very strict.)
I think most people, Muslims included, are attracted to Christianity as a result of community and genuine warmth rather than by arguments. With Islam in particular the costs of conversion are high, and individuals presumably need to know they will be received into a new family of faith, rather than kept at arm's length with polite smiles.
Whether this is relevant to Islamic State is an interesing question. Some of the young people flying out to join in were apparently born and/or raised in the UK, in multicultural areas where there are probably several churches. What have these churches done to engage young people from Muslim families, rather than waiting for them to get 'radicalised', and then worrying about it?
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by itsarumdo:
American democracy is a euphemism for profit. It can't be anything else given the crazy levels of private funding that support every election campaign. Not that the UK is immune to lobbyists with wads of cash, but it's not so blatant and it's relatively under wraps to the extent that things that aren't for profit also have a chance.
Oh, are the American voters so brain-dead that they vote for those people anyway then? If that's the case, perhaps the American voters need to stop being to thick.
Or perhaps it doesn't matter because the American voters aren't that thick and the result is what they actually want.
It may not be what someone on the left wants, but it might be what they want.
It's amazing that whenever someone loses an election it's always someone else's fault. Never that their politics are at fault. Oh no, that would never do. It will always have to be someone else's fault.
But never mind. That's nothing to do with IS is it?
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Welcoming them back despite their despite IS evangelism.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Mudfrog: Have you ever tried to speak to a young and passionate Muslim about your faith in Jesus?
I have.
Then you'll know how firm they are in their convictions about the truth of Islam and the 'error' that lies in the Bible as we have it today. They are immoveable.
Radicalise them as well and that's it!
It's not a question of graciously seeking them out and talking to them; it really is a matter of waiting until they come to their senses because you will never convince them.
firstly, thanks for the reply -
Now, which error is that in the Bible? The one that man does not possess the strength to overcome his sin and only God can do that? That to me is the core message. It isn't for me to move them, it's for me (us even) to present this to them and yea, even unto atheists who I find far more intractable, though I admit never having had to deal with anyone pointing an AK47 at me.
It's well known that Islam teaches that the Bible has been corrupted and incorrectly translated.
From the near sacrifice of Ishmael instead of Isaac right through to the non-crucifixion of Jesus, Islam teaches a different narrative to the Old and New Testaments.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Mudfrog: Have you ever tried to speak to a young and passionate Muslim about your faith in Jesus?
I have.
Then you'll know how firm they are in their convictions about the truth of Islam and the 'error' that lies in the Bible as we have it today. They are immoveable.
Radicalise them as well and that's it!
It's not a question of graciously seeking them out and talking to them; it really is a matter of waiting until they come to their senses because you will never convince them.
My local Baptist church is doing good work with Muslims in the community. This has led to some Muslims attending church, and Muslim teens getting involved in the openly Christian-led youth activities. (The minister is himself a convert with a Muslim father, although I don't think his upbringing was very strict.)
I think most people, Muslims included, are attracted to Christianity as a result of community and genuine warmth rather than by arguments. With Islam in particular the costs of conversion are high, and individuals presumably need to know they will be received into a new family of faith, rather than kept at arm's length with polite smiles.
Whether this is relevant to Islamic State is an interesing question. Some of the young people flying out to join in were apparently born and/or raised in the UK, in multicultural areas where there are probably several churches. What have these churches done to engage young people from Muslim families, rather than waiting for them to get 'radicalised', and then worrying about it?
That is actually quite a lovely thing to read.
I have often said that Islam's mission in the UK seems to be to bring a godless nation back to God. If the church was really what it should be, if the churches were filled with loving and faithful congregations I don't think Islam would look at the UK as fertile ground.
I like the idea that the churches could actually help to build the communities that young Muslims feel have failed them.
We really just need to get on with being the church - and do it properly.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Mudfrog: Then you'll know how firm they are in their convictions about the truth of Islam and the 'error' that lies in the Bible as we have it today. They are immoveable.
Radicalise them as well and that's it!
It's not a question of graciously seeking them out and talking to them; it really is a matter of waiting until they come to their senses because you will never convince them.
I wasn't trying to move them or convince them of anything.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Mudfrog: Then you'll know how firm they are in their convictions about the truth of Islam and the 'error' that lies in the Bible as we have it today. They are immoveable.
Radicalise them as well and that's it!
It's not a question of graciously seeking them out and talking to them; it really is a matter of waiting until they come to their senses because you will never convince them.
I wasn't trying to move them or convince them of anything.
What? Not even that their view of the world and of Islam was skewed?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Mudfrog: What? Not even that their view of the world and of Islam was skewed?
No. I talked about my faith in Jesus. They talked about their faith in Islam. It was very good.
(PS Why do you think that someone who is a 'young and passionate Muslim' automatically has a skewed view of Islam?)
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Mudfrog: What? Not even that their view of the world and of Islam was skewed?
No. I talked about my faith in Jesus. They talked about their faith in Islam. It was very good.
(PS Why do you think that someone who is a 'young and passionate Muslim' automatically has a skewed view of Islam?)
Go back to my initial contributions. we were talking about the returning radical muslims:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Let's get REALLY creative, radical, Christlike and welcome back all such prodigals by running to embrace them.
(Me:) Is that before they 'come to their senses' or after?
These are the boys who are entirely brainwashed. It's hard enough to talk to a convinced religious zealot, let alone one who is Islamically radicalised.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Mudfrog: Go back to my initial contributions. we were talking about the returning radical muslims:
Ah, I'm not really sure if I've ever talked with them. I have talked a number of times with Muslims who were quite extreme in their faith and who had fought in the Middle East. But not with ISIS, this was long before ISIS.
I'm still not sure: if I were talking to someone who had come back from fighting with ISIS, would it be my job to try to convince him of anything?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Mudfrog: Go back to my initial contributions. we were talking about the returning radical muslims:
Ah, I'm not really sure if I've ever talked with them. I have talked a number of times with Muslims who were quite extreme in their faith and who had fought in the Middle East. But not with ISIS, this was long before ISIS.
I'm still not sure: if I were talking to someone who had come back from fighting with ISIS, would it be my job to try to convince him of anything?
And that was exactly my original point. If these boys are prodigals, shouldn't we actually be better to either wait for them to come to their senses or just charge them with treason?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Couple of questions.
First, is IS that much different than, say the American south with the Ku Klux Klan essentially running some of the states in the early parts of 20th century?
Second, is there a moral equivalent rather than a sensationalist equivalency to some young person running a drone with joy stick as if playing a computer game and killing non-combatant people as if they were CGI creations? I'm finding myself looking pig to man and man to pig and having trouble telling the difference. Perhaps if we had free internet video and TV access to the drone attacks we might feel similarly outraged?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Just listening to a news report about a 15 year old GIRL from Bristol who has travelled to Syria to fight.
W T F ???
She was radicalised by sites on the internet and her poor family are traumatised by it all.
The poor people.
What can we do?
Seriously?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Mudfrog: Go back to my initial contributions. we were talking about the returning radical muslims:
Ah, I'm not really sure if I've ever talked with them. I have talked a number of times with Muslims who were quite extreme in their faith and who had fought in the Middle East. But not with ISIS, this was long before ISIS.
I'm still not sure: if I were talking to someone who had come back from fighting with ISIS, would it be my job to try to convince him of anything?
I doubt that such a person would be looking to the average, kind-hearted, well-meaning Western Christian for comfort or spiritual advice! The two would hardly understand each other.
Regarding evangelism, the crude truth is that such a person wouldn't fit in at your average church, even if they did convert. Like attracts like, and they'd stick out like a sore thumb.
But all things are possible with God, and I imagine that some inner city British churches might find themselves unwittingly ministering to disillusioned Muslim war veterans as part of their social engagement with the local community.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Just listening to a news report about a 15 year old GIRL from Bristol who has travelled to Syria to fight.
W T F ???
She was radicalised by sites on the internet and her poor family are traumatised by it all.
The poor people.
What can we do?
Seriously?
We could start by understanding it. Here's a starter link from the American Psychological Association.
quote:
APA.org
-Feel angry, alienated or disenfranchised.
-Believe that their current political involvement does not give them the power to effect real change.
-Identify with perceived victims of the social injustice they are fighting.
-Feel the need to take action rather than just talking about the problem.
-Believe that engaging in violence against the state is not immoral.
-Have friends or family sympathetic to the cause.
-Believe that joining a movement offers social and psychological rewards such as adventure, camaraderie and a heightened sense of identity.
How many of us can say we didn't feel at least some of these things as young people? Particularly the first three. With the endorsement of state-sponsored violence by the west and focus on our enrichment, and the drop of the pretence of actually spreading anything resembling global equality and justice, what are we to expect? Don't any of you know someone who feels alienated and disenfranchised?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Mudfrog: And that was exactly my original point. If these boys are prodigals, shouldn't we actually be better to either wait for them to come to their senses or just charge them with treason?
You've moved from personal conversations I've had with people who are a bit like this to a general question of what 'we' as a society should do with people who've come back from fighting with ISIS. Those are different things.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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IconiumBound
Shipmate
# 754
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Posted
originally posted by Mudfrog
quote:
It's well known that Islam teaches that the Bible has been corrupted and incorrectly translated.
From the near sacrifice of Ishmael instead of Isaac right through to the non-crucifixion of Jesus, Islam teaches a different narrative to the Old and New Testaments.
I take the Bible origin stories to be codified, made up fables to explain why the tribe making it up has become the superior tribe. So, just as the Hebrew fable that ultimately comes down to defending territory (the 12 tribes) so the Islamic revision does the same for the same territory; and so we have the Middle East mess.
Posts: 1318 | From: Philadelphia, PA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Aye, we ALL need to get over the Bronze-Iron Age.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IconiumBound:
originally posted by Mudfrog
quote:
It's well known that Islam teaches that the Bible has been corrupted and incorrectly translated.
From the near sacrifice of Ishmael instead of Isaac right through to the non-crucifixion of Jesus, Islam teaches a different narrative to the Old and New Testaments.
I take the Bible origin stories to be codified, made up fables to explain why the tribe making it up has become the superior tribe. So, just as the Hebrew fable that ultimately comes down to defending territory (the 12 tribes) so the Islamic revision does the same for the same territory; and so we have the Middle East mess.
Well indeed! And the Qu'ran also denies that Jesus was crucified, so we've got some huge problems:
1. The Jews have no right to anything because it
wasn't Isaac who was the one through whom the covenant came, but Ishmael. Strange how the Qu'ran, written many hundreds of years after the Book of Genesis so conveniently sets the record straight! Anyway...
2. The Christians' religion is all false and idolatrous and is based on a totally wrong premise - i.e. the crucifixion (and alleged subsequent resurrection) because Jesus wasn't even crucified! Oh, and by the way he's not God either! So there.... Strange how the Qu'ran, written hundreds of years after the Gospels so conveniently set the record straight.
It's a case therefore of 'Our (newer) Qu'ran is entirely right, your (older) Bible is completely wrong...'
I wonder if anyone can tell me of basis common theological and doctrinal ground upon which Muslims, Jews and Christians can agree? Because it sure as anything looks to me as though the Muslims, having conveniently changed the two basic tenets of Judaism and Christianity (i.e. the old and the new covenants), ain't going to change a thing.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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