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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: IS have turned me into a hawk
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I wonder if anyone can tell me of basis common theological and doctrinal ground upon which Muslims, Jews and Christians can agree? Because it sure as anything looks to me as though the Muslims, having conveniently changed the two basic tenets of Judaism and Christianity (i.e. the old and the new covenants), ain't going to change a thing.
I suppose 'Abraham' is too simple?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I wonder if anyone can tell me of basis common theological and doctrinal ground upon which Muslims, Jews and Christians can agree? Because it sure as anything looks to me as though the Muslims, having conveniently changed the two basic tenets of Judaism and Christianity (i.e. the old and the new covenants), ain't going to change a thing.
I suppose 'Abraham' is too simple?
Actually, Yes.
The Jewish faith is based on the covenant made with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Israel) and then magnified and codified through Moses who led the children of Israel to the Promised Land.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
A covenant of what?
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Love wins
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
A covenant of what?
A covenant of YHWH being Israel's God, of them being his obedient people and being given the Promised Land and through whom the nations of the world will be blessed.
Through them the Messiah would come (salvation being 'of the Jews' as Jesus said) and through him the covenant would be renewed, ratified and extended to the entire world.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Sorry Gwai, Spike, does that suffice?
And back to Mudfrog if I may, so why ISN'T Abraham sufficient to emphasize as a starting point of commonality for the Peoples of the Book.
Leading to a common end point?
Chesed. Blessing. Barak.
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Love wins
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Sorry Gwai, Spike, does that suffice?
And back to Mudfrog if I may, so why ISN'T Abraham sufficient to emphasize as a starting point of commonality for the Peoples of the Book.
Leading to a common end point?
Chesed. Blessing. Barak.
Simply because that would strip all Jewish and Christian identity and faith away from the dialogue.
There is no common end point if you all only accept Abraham.
Jews and Christians have a fellowship together because of Abraham AND Isaac and Jacob, through Moses.
There is no commonality in Abraham. In fact, the whole Abraham thing is the covenant between him and the God who called him to be the father of Isreal and the one to whom Israel was promised.
In other words Judeo-Christian thinking and Islamic thinking have two entirely different opinions about Abraham. So much so they could almost be too different people.
Islam can only refer back to Abraham through Ishmael and their errant teaching that Abraham was ordered to sacrifice him and not Israel. Ishmael is nothing to the Jews.
[ 12. October 2014, 09:45: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Hmmm. I thought that in Abraham all nations are blessed?
[ 12. October 2014, 10:47: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Hmmm. I thought that in Abraham all nations are blessed?
Yes, Abraham, through to Isaac (not Ishmael), Jacob (Israel) - through the Law and the Prophets to the coming (and return)of the Messiah.
Salvation (for the world) is of the Jews, not the Muslims.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Hmmm. I thought that in Abraham all nations are blessed?
Yes, Abraham, through to Isaac (not Ishmael), Jacob (Israel) - through the Law and the Prophets to the coming (and return)of the Messiah.
Salvation (for the world) is of the Jews, not the Muslims.
It is my understanding that the Jews rejected the Messiah. Where is their salvation?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Hmmm. I thought that in Abraham all nations are blessed?
Yes, Abraham, through to Isaac (not Ishmael), Jacob (Israel) - through the Law and the Prophets to the coming (and return)of the Messiah.
Salvation (for the world) is of the Jews, not the Muslims.
It is my understanding that the Jews rejected the Messiah. Where is their salvation?
Their salvation will be in the covenants made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and in the covenant made with Moses. They are God's elect nation and the gifts and callings of God are without revocation.
These covenants - including the Torah - have not been set aside, cancelled or rescinded. The Jews - 'all Israel' according to Paul - will be saved by Christ who at his return with fulfil the entire Covenant with Israel and the ingrafted Church.
The Jews are blinded at the moment but they will see the Messiah when he returns and they will be included in the redemption that Christ brings with him, being saved according to the covenants made in the OT and fulfilled perfectly in Christ.
[ 13. October 2014, 11:45: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
There is only ONE covenant. All are in it.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
There is only ONE covenant. All are in it.
All? Upon what basis?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The Jews are blinded at the moment but they will see the Messiah when he returns and they will be included in the redemption that Christ brings with him, being saved according to the covenants made in the OT and fulfilled perfectly in Christ.
What is to prevent Muslims from 'seeing the Messiah' when He returns? Why indeed should they, as all will have to see Him as Saviour, not merely Messiah, to be included in the redemption Christ brings.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
On the basis of keeping it simple, on the basis of monism: there is only ONE story.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
Christians, Jews, and Muslims all worship the same one God Who made Heaven and Earth. We do believe that He revealed Himself to Abraham. After that things perhaps start going in different directions.
And of course some of us Jews are Christians, like the whole very early Church; but of course most self-identified Jews now are not.
I have no idea what you mean by "monism" here, Martin. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Their salvation will be in the covenants made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and in the covenant made with Moses. They are God's elect nation and the gifts and callings of God are without revocation.
Dispensationalist nonsense! The Church is the true Israel of God. National is quite irrelevant in the context of the new covenant. The old covenant is dead.
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
These covenants - including the Torah - have not been set aside, cancelled or rescinded. The Jews - 'all Israel' according to Paul - will be saved by Christ who at his return with fulfil the entire Covenant with Israel and the ingrafted Church.
The Jews are blinded at the moment but they will see the Messiah when he returns and they will be included in the redemption that Christ brings with him, being saved according to the covenants made in the OT and fulfilled perfectly in Christ.
When our Lord returns it will be too late. Jews are saved exactly the same way as Gentiles: through the Church.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Too late for what?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Their salvation will be in the covenants made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and in the covenant made with Moses. They are God's elect nation and the gifts and callings of God are without revocation.
Dispensationalist nonsense! The Church is the true Israel of God. National is quite irrelevant in the context of the new covenant. The old covenant is dead.
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
These covenants - including the Torah - have not been set aside, cancelled or rescinded. The Jews - 'all Israel' according to Paul - will be saved by Christ who at his return with fulfil the entire Covenant with Israel and the ingrafted Church.
The Jews are blinded at the moment but they will see the Messiah when he returns and they will be included in the redemption that Christ brings with him, being saved according to the covenants made in the OT and fulfilled perfectly in Christ.
When our Lord returns it will be too late. Jews are saved exactly the same way as Gentiles: through the Church.
Your first point about the Church now being Israel and the old covenant being dead is the source, foundation, justification and incentive for all the antisemitism in the church over the last 2000 years.
Where in the New testament do you find a verse that tells you that the Torah has been set aside, nullified, killed off indeed?
Your second point is also incorrect - we are not saved through the church, we are saved by grace through faith in Christ.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
The Apostle tells us in his epistles to the Ephesians and Colossians that the new covenant has made the old void.
"For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and breaking down the middle wall of partition, the enmities in his flesh: making void the law of commandments contained in decrees; that he might make the two in himself into one new man, making peace"
"And you, when you were dead in your sins, and the uncircumcision of your flesh; he hath quickened together with him, forgiving you all offences: blotting out the handwriting of the decree that was against us, which was contrary to us. And he hath taken the same out of the way, fastening it to the cross"
Yes, it is through the Church that we are saved, for the Church is Christ's body, outside of which there is no salvation.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Too late for what?
Too late to repent and be baptised, for the time is now.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
So what happens to the 80% of humanity that nominally haven't as opposed to the placist minority that nominally have?
[ 14. October 2014, 07:14: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
So what happens to the 80% of humanity that nominally haven't as opposed to the placist minority that nominally have?
Are you suggesting that all those who have repented and been baptised have only nominally done so? If not, what's your point?
Anyway, I'm not suggesting that all who do are automatically saved, only that this is the ordinary means by which we are able to be saved. This is what we confess, after all.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
So what happens to the 80% of humanity that nominally haven't as opposed to the placist minority that nominally have?
Are you suggesting that all those who have repented and been baptised have only nominally done so? If not, what's your point?
Anyway, I'm not suggesting that all who do are automatically saved, only that this is the ordinary means by which we are able to be saved. This is what we confess, after all.
I think he's asking what you think happens to those who are not saved.
As am I, but without the wiggle room.
What happens Ad Orientem, according to the policies and principles of your faith, and your opinion, to those who are not saved?
[ 14. October 2014, 09:34: Message edited by: deano ]
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Hell.
Well isn't that just merciful and loving?
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Hell.
Well isn't that just merciful and loving?
True enough, but it isn't Ad Orientum's decision.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Hell.
Well isn't that just merciful and loving?
It's simply traditional Christian belief.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Hell.
Well isn't that just merciful and loving?
It's simply traditional Christian belief.
You mean it's YOUR traditional Christian belief!
My traditional Christian belief says nothing of the sort.
I'm sure someone else will be along with THEIR traditional Christian belief soon to point out their traditional Christian belief doesn't agree with you. Or me.
Define "traditional". Define "Christian". Define "belief".
Then we can all disagree.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Some of the stuff going on now is bewildering. Turkey and the US are negotiating whether to support rebel group X or rebel group Y, but of course, not Kurdish group Z, which the Turks regard as too militant, and endangering Turkey itself.
Meanwhile the UK is supplying heavy machine guns to Kurdish group AA, and even sending soldiers to instruct them in their use. The CIA is sending weapons to Syrian rebels, under the name of the Supreme Military Council.
I wonder if anyone is coordinating all these efforts?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Some of the stuff going on now is bewildering. Turkey and the US are negotiating whether to support rebel group X or rebel group Y, but of course, not Kurdish group Z, which the Turks regard as too militant, and endangering Turkey itself.
Meanwhile the UK is supplying heavy machine guns to Kurdish group AA, and even sending soldiers to instruct them in their use. The CIA is sending weapons to Syrian rebels, under the name of the Supreme Military Council.
I wonder if anyone is coordinating all these efforts?
The Legion of Doom have got it...
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Hell.
Well isn't that just merciful and loving?
It's simply traditional Christian belief.
You mean it's YOUR traditional Christian belief!
My traditional Christian belief says nothing of the sort.
I'm sure someone else will be along with THEIR traditional Christian belief soon to point out their traditional Christian belief doesn't agree with you. Or me.
Define "traditional". Define "Christian". Define "belief".
Then we can all disagree.
Well, if that's the case I'm surprised you believe anything at all. However, I'm referring to the orthodox faith, handed down from the apostles and which has been believed for two thousand years and is still held to in it's fullness by the Orthodox Churches.
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Some of the stuff going on now is bewildering. Turkey and the US are negotiating whether to support rebel group X or rebel group Y, but of course, not Kurdish group Z, which the Turks regard as too militant, and endangering Turkey itself.
Meanwhile the UK is supplying heavy machine guns to Kurdish group AA, and even sending soldiers to instruct them in their use. The CIA is sending weapons to Syrian rebels, under the name of the Supreme Military Council.
I wonder if anyone is coordinating all these efforts?
The Legion of Doom have got it...
I expect Vladimir Putin is pulling strings, and even pushing them. There's considerable cunning behind that clumsy façade.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Russia wants Assad to win, and have been supplying weapons to him. Arguably, Assad was winning the civil war until recently, and making gains of territory. Whether recent movements by IS has changed this is unclear; I suppose the US fear that they will help Assad by bombing IS, although when the chips are down, the West will prefer Assad.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
Assad is the least worst of a bad bunch. I think either the Americans and their allies are extremely stupid or someone else is actually pulling the strings - Israel, for instance, who would prefer IS to Assad. Given everything that has happened in Afghanistan, Iraq and what have you, they must have known that destabilising Syria would lead to this.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
So is there the opportunity for 'Just War' here? Not just war.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
Personally, I don't believe in "just war". There's just war, and it's bloody and dirty.
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Personally, I don't believe in "just war". There's just war, and it's bloody and dirty.
But there isn't 'just' war, is there?
There is war that is fought as an aggressor - Nazi Germany, for example - and there is war that is fought in defence - again, WWII.
It's never justifiable to start a war for ideological or territorial reasons, but there can be little condemnation for a nation that simply fights to defend itself or defend others against the aggressor.
As far as what's occurring now, the fight against Islamic extremists is not a fight against religious belief but a fight to defend justice and the rights of minorities who are being slaughtered by people for whom the words wicked, evil and devilish are just not strong enough.
If by our inaction innocent people will die, then it is only 'just' that we use 'forensic' action to prevent the spread of such foul ideologies and actions.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
All war is an evil. Under certain circumstances, such as defending against an aggressor, it might very well be deemed necessary, but it still remains an evil.
As for the situation in Syria, no, I don't think we should be getting involved. No doubt all we're doing is arming the next terrorist group. Haven't we learned anything?
[ 16. October 2014, 07:16: Message edited by: Ad Orientem ]
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Britain, France, Russia all fought as aggressors.
And what has made some of the Sunni of Syria and Iraq so wicked, evil and devilish?
Shouldn't we go to war against that? Whatever it is?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
It's a moot point, as to whom war should be waged against, and whether it is counter-productive. One problem is that we just don't know. It's quite possible that current Western bombing and so on, will make the situation worse; I mean that it could act as a recruiting sergeant for various militant groups - you can see the Youtube films already - brothers, see how the kafir are targeting Muslim lands again! Come and help us defend them!
There is also a wider point - why didn't we intervene in Congo, where 4/5 million people lost their lives in various nasty wars?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Aye: "not a fight against religious belief but a fight to defend justice and the rights of minorities who are being slaughtered by people for whom the words wicked, evil and devilish are just not strong enough." in the Congo would make our interference in the Ottoman Empire for 100 years consistent at least.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
the west daren't go into Africa because of charges of colonialism
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
the west daren't go into Africa because of charges of colonialism
I think this concern is largely rubbish, the West hasn't hesitated to interfere in Africa at other points.
In the case of Congo it seems like theer was a genuine underestimation of what was going on, coupled with a reluctance to get locked into nation building. The US in particular was reluctant to get involved because the shadow of Somalia still loomed large.
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
the west daren't go into Africa because of charges of colonialism
That doesn't explain the French intervention in Mali, Chad and elsewhere, Britain's in Sierra Leone and everybody's in Liberia and Libya. The non-intervention in Rwanda and Congo was another matter and many more European troops would have been needed where it was and remains demonstrably necessary according to the 'Mudfrog rules'.
I'm afraid only one factor is considered when intervention is proposed: How many of Our Brave Boys will die?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I think Congo has been such a complete morass of competing militias, using absolutely horrendous violence, e.g. amputations, rape, mass executions, that Western countries could not contemplate going in. It would have been unlimited and very bloody. Plus, nobody would have been very sure what the aim was.
And the idea of Western troops being brought home in body bags, with arms and legs and heads missing, would probably bring governments down.
In Syria so far, it has all been very hands off. I bet they are terrified of a pilot being shot down and captured and executed on Youtube.
[ 16. October 2014, 19:54: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Nothing about the Congo fulfils even 'just' war criteria: it is NOT remotely in the tax payer's interest.
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Love wins
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Nothing about the Congo fulfils even 'just' war criteria: it is NOT remotely in the tax payer's interest.
But aren't the Congolese our neighbours?
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Of course Joanna. So we should sacrifice our children to impose 'civilization' upon them? Countries like Ghana have a middle class now. In a hundred years the Congo might.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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