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» Ship of Fools   » Ship's Locker   » Limbo   » Purgatory: Who knows best - the state or the parents? (Page 8)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Who knows best - the state or the parents?
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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The list of things in that Schedule of the PACE Act isn't confined to section 136 of the Mental Health Act.

The complete list of Mental Health Act provisions mentioned:

section 18 - taking a patient who has been absent without leave - can be done by an approved mental health professional, a hospital staff member, a constable or a person authorised by the managers of the hospital.

subsection 35(10) - criminally accused person absconding from hospital when there for a mental assessment - arrest by a constable. Actually uses the word 'arrest'.

subsection 36(8) - remand of accused person in hospital, cross-references to the previous one so it's the same power.

subsection 38(7) - convicted person absconding from hospital - arrest by a constable. Again, a criminal matter and uses the word 'arrest'.

subsection 136(1) - constable detaining a mentally ill person in a public place and taking them to a place of safety.

section 138 - retaking a patient escaped from custody.


There is proof positive in these sections that the Mental Health Act uses the word 'arrest' when dealing with someone who is either accused or convicted of a criminal offence, and does not use the word 'arrest' when dealing with someone who is detained purely on grounds of mental health.

The drafters of the Act were quite capable of using the word 'arrest' when they wanted to, so I'd recommend that the police and mental health professionals stop reading the word into the sections where it wasn't used.

[ 08. September 2014, 03:19: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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I note that the NHS have now been put in the position of paying for Aysha King's treatment.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Sorry, but I don't see how it's possible to say the proton therapy doesn't meet a standard of reasonable care. The highest the argument of Southampton doctors has ever been is "it'll cost more, and it won't be any better".

If it's not their money, then the cost is no longer their business. If it's not any better, then it's just as good as their idea.

It was fairly predictable that in this situation that NHS would end up having to pay. Because, if the family do not in fact have the money - what are you going to do ? Disrupt the treatment course and drastically reduce the child's chance of survival (because a course of radiotherapy - proton or otherwise - has not been completed in a timely fashion.) ?

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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North East Quine

Curious beastie
# 13049

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I thought a public appeal had raised enough money to pay for most of the treatment, with a private donor meeting the balance?
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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Well, that raises an interesting question in itself. But I am confident if the NHS has comitted itself to pay, then it will pay.

I suspect the money raised will go to the Kids n Cancer charity. I note they hadn't actually got enough money with that appeal - which may be part of the issue.

[ 29. September 2014, 09:27: Message edited by: Doublethink ]

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Gracie
Shipmate
# 3870

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quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
I thought a public appeal had raised enough money to pay for most of the treatment, with a private donor meeting the balance?

Yes, I haven't read anything to suggest that the NHS has been obliged to fund the treatment but rather that it has agreed and that the money donated for the treatment will be used for other children by Kids’n’CancerUK.

The information that is now being published seems to confirm my initial understanding, that the issue was that the NHS only took survival rates into consideration, whereas the Kings' concerns have always been side effects and quality of life in addition to chances of survival.

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When someone is convinced he’s an Old Testament prophet there’s not a lot you can do with him rationally. - Sine

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North East Quine

Curious beastie
# 13049

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I read the BBC story as meaning that the treatment met the NHS guidelines, and hence they were liable to pay. If it meets the guidelines now, it would have met the guidelines at the time Ashya was removed from Southampton Hospital.

But I can see that there is more than one way to read this story.

[ 29. September 2014, 09:40: Message edited by: North East Quine ]

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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No. The tumour has been removed. The radiotherapy is to prevent it coming back. Because in this condition if it does, it will almost certainly be lethal.

To do this, they will irradiate most of the brain and part of the spine. It is doing this that will cause side effects.

Doing it with proton beams doesn't change that. Which is why the case was not approved for funding for this in the first place.

Where proton beam therapy would have an advantage, would be if you only needed to irradiate precisely a small area - for example for the removal of a small tumour.

To prevent the return of a tumour, the child needs a complete course to do the irradiation within a fixed time. In other words, now it has been started it should not be stopped.

Analogy: A doctor might think antibiotic b, is no more effective and side effect free than antibiotic a - despite being three times the cost - but once you've started it, you should definitely complete the course rather than stop half way through because you have run out of money.

[ 29. September 2014, 19:12: Message edited by: Doublethink ]

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Gracie
Shipmate
# 3870

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From what I've read, all of the money needed to complete the treatment has already been raised. There is no risk of them not having enough money. That is not rhe reason for the NHS's change of mind.

Mr and Mrs King were told that their son would most certainly have "special needs" for the rest of his life with conventional radiotherapy. The doctors in Prague say that he has a 70 to 80% chance of making a full recovery with proton therapy.

Your appraisal of the situation may be different. But I can see why these parents chose to trust the people they trust.

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When someone is convinced he’s an Old Testament prophet there’s not a lot you can do with him rationally. - Sine

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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I think you may be mistaken in believing that "full recovery" means no special needs. (I wish otherwise.)

In the same way that "medically fit for discharge" does not equal "well".

One reason for this is that, owing to having a tumour surgically removed, this child already has brain damage. Now his brain will repair itself to an extent, most quickly in the first two years post-operatively, but it is still a major neurological insult.

[ 29. September 2014, 19:33: Message edited by: Doublethink ]

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Gracie
Shipmate
# 3870

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I'm talking about what the parents have heard and understood.

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When someone is convinced he’s an Old Testament prophet there’s not a lot you can do with him rationally. - Sine

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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174

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WOW! 360 posts

Lets just hope none of us ever has to make a decision that ends up being dissected ad infinitum in public.

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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron

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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331

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Gracie:
quote:
I'm talking about what the parents have heard and understood.
I think you are probably right, but as Doublethink has pointed out Asha will probably have special needs anyway.

In that kind of situation I'd also want the best medical care possible for my child. But I hope I wouldn't dismiss a specialist's opinion in favour of some random cure I'd found on the Internet just because the specialist wasn't telling me what I wanted to hear.

And I say this as someone who DID find a cure for her child's medical problem from the Internet...

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Gracie
Shipmate
# 3870

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quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
I think you are probably right, but as Doublethink has pointed out Asha will probably have special needs anyway.

That may well be the case. There is however still the question of degree. From what I've read Mr King did more than random research. I would have thought that if you're motivated it's possible to do quite extensive research into comparative results, those comparative results including not just survival but the condition of the patient after survival.

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When someone is convinced he’s an Old Testament prophet there’s not a lot you can do with him rationally. - Sine

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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331

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Well, I hope you're right. But ISTM that Doublethink is on the money here - the reason for the treatment is to stop more tumours growing, not to shrink an existing one, so you can't focus on a precise area.

And once again: proton beam therapy IS radiotherapy. There will be side effects, however tightly focused the beam may be.

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Gracie
Shipmate
# 3870

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Again I repeat it is a question of degree.

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When someone is convinced he’s an Old Testament prophet there’s not a lot you can do with him rationally. - Sine

Posts: 1090 | From: En lieu sûr | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged



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