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Source: (consider it) Thread: HEAVEN: All Things Breadish
Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
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Chapati flour

You'll no doubt get something more authentic from others, but:

Wheat flour tortilla recipe (Tortillas de harina de trigo)

1tbsp (15ml) salt
450g (11b) plain flour
75g (3oz) lard or vegetable shortening
275ml (10fl oz) warm water (at body temperature)

Mix salt, flour and lard as pastry, add warm water slowly to make dough. Knead with floured hands until no longer sticky. Keep dough covered with warm damp cloth. Take 45g (1½oz) dough at a time and knead, folding back to trap air for a few seconds, make into a ball, flatten it and roll out to thin enough to see board through the pastry. Cut around a 9" plate to make tortilla. Cook on moderately hot griddle or pan, for about 40s on each side. When cooked should feel heavy and floppy, soft and pliable.

Stack cooked tortilla together, wrapped in a clean tea-towel. Always eat hot except when fried when can be eaten cold if consumed within 4 hours.

(it's from Sainsbury's Cooking of Mexico by Lourdes Nichols (1985))

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
If so, what did people make bread with back when all flour was local?

It was bread Jim, but not as we know it... Much of medieval England, for example, subsisted on spelt bread, which seems to have been the consistency of set porridge. Not all bread was leavened, and when it was, yeast was not the only raising agent.
Spelt is a wheat relative. I've made bread with it. Not enough taste difference to warrant the expense I felt.

If you mix with flour and water about 50-50 and leave in your kitchen oncovered, eventually some yeasts will settle into it and it will start to look like you've yeasted it. It took almost 3 weeks when I tried it.

A faster way of getting wild yeasts is to soak raisins or apple peelings in water and use the water from that. People use grape as well. Takes about 10 days to really get going here. Link to wild bread yeast and bacteria

A professor of mine years back had some "Joe" which was alleged to be a sourdough vulture 100 years old. Not sure of the truth of that.

[ 18. October 2014, 20:06: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]

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Enoch
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It may well be possible to use beer yeast. It's certainly possible to make beer using the sludge in the bottom of a bottle conditioned beer.

However, the issue isn't yeast. Historically yeast as fermented dough was kept for the previous baking (removed before the baking of course) and used for the next one. There are still people who do that, though I've not heard of anyone using that method successfully in a bread machine . The issue is using flour which grew in England rather than on the prairies with their colder winters and hotter summers. England grows a lot of wheat and it produces flour is excellent for virtually everything except bread.

The tortillas look like as though they come out a bit like a chapatti or perhaps a Derbyshire/Staffordshire oatcake though those are fermented with yeast. The question I was actually asking is whether you can use chapatti flour to make bread?

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Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
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Sorry, was answering two comments at once. The tortillas were for Pomona.

Traditional Irish bread is soda bread - using baking soda instead of yeast. The traditional north eastern stottie almost certainly approximates what the Romans ate on Hadrian's Wall, and according to the Dove's link below, the Romans brought bread to Britain. Stotties are a very different sort of bread.

I wouldn't have thought trenchers would work unless they were made of fairly dense bread

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Doublethink.
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Bread Porn !

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Firenze

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Somewhere up thread I baked a brioche loaf. Just had a bread and butter pudding made with the remnant. Yumminy numminy.
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Gee D
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A good idea.

Once a novice is accustomed to the look and feel of a loaf, an interesting variation is to substitute beer for any water in the dough. Good flavour particularly in a dough which uses honey rather than sugar, and helps the rising no end.

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Doublethink.
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What happens if you make coffee, and use that instead of the water in the recipe ? Will it flavour the bread effectively ?

[ 19. October 2014, 21:38: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Heavenly Anarchist
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
It may well be possible to use beer yeast. It's certainly possible to make beer using the sludge in the bottom of a bottle conditioned beer.

In Tudor times the bakhous was often placed next to the brewhus for this very reason.

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Lothlorien
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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
What happens if you make coffee, and use that instead of the water in the recipe ? Will it flavour the bread effectively ?

I used to make a coffee and date loaf which was good. I used coffee but from memory, it did not make bread very dark or flavourful. I also added some of the coffee essence available down here in a bottle. This may need a bit of experimenting for flavour and colour. Old fashioned stuff which my parents drank many, many years ago before they discovered good coffee. Coffee with chicory.

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Piglet
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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
... an interesting variation is to substitute beer for any water in the dough ...

This may sound like a daft question, but beer being beer, does that negate the need for yeast?

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Gee D
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Not at all daft. If you were using the yeast from brewing, you would not need to add any extra. As you're just using the beer, use the normal amount of yeast for the recipe. I am not sure how it would go with your baguettes and ficelles though.

As someone noted bakeries and breweries were near each other so that the yeast could be re-cycled, as it were. A problem with that was the largely unknown and very variable quality of the yeast and thus of the bread - even trickier than using cake yeast now rather than the granulated variety.

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Moo

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Buttermilk adds a nice flavor and texture to bread. If you use it, you need to add baking soda.

Moo

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Enoch
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Another question or rather gripe.

I've just loaded my bread machine. With the old one that eventually wore out, the recipes straightforwardly listed the amounts of flour in lbs and oz and water in pints with alternatives in grammes and litres. Why does the new one think it's being more helpful listing the quantities in 'cups' and even in one case 1⅝ of a cup? Why a cup? Cups come in all manner of different shapes and sizes. Yes, it does supply you with it's own small official plastic cup, but it's difficult to read. And having tested it, I can say that it doesn't bear any obvious relationship with any proportion of a pint or a litre, though as it happens 1⅝ comes out at fairly close to 400ml.

But also why on earth measure quantities of flour by volume rather than weight anyway? The old machine worked on the basis that you took a lb of flour and the other quantities were worked out on what made a decent loaf out of a lb of flour. Why can't this one do the same?

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Piglet
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Enoch, you have my sympathy: I thought I'd never get used to the North American habit of measuring everything in cups.

However, a cup is a standard measure: a cup of butter, for instance is 8 oz. (or half a packet).

Measuring cups usually come in sets of four: ¼, ⅓, ½ and 1 cup, and for accurate quantities you level off the top with the edge of a knife. I've never seen a recipe that specified a quantity in eighths of a cup.

As all my bread-making experience has been on this side of the Pond, I'm quite comfortable with using cup measures for bread, and we've never had any quantity-related failures!

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Sober Preacher's Kid

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In North America, cups are a measurement of volume and are standardized and sold as baking instruments. Quite a different thing from a drinking vessel. The tradition arose in the settlement period when tea or coffee cups were the only measure available.

As regards flour types, Canadian flour and British Flour differ in their gluten content. British and European flours usually contain 9% gluten, Canadian All-Purpose Flour contains 13% gluten. You'd think you can't bake pastries with that gluten content, but you can. All-Purp truly is All Purpose in Canada.

The different arises from the wheat varieties the flour is milled from. Europe mostly grows white winter wheats which have lower gluten content. Canada, especially the Prairies grows Hard Red Spring Wheat. The original in this line is Red Fife, and Red Fife was first planted by David Fife in Keene, a little village just south of Peterborough, where I live. David Fife is the father of Canadian Wheat.

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Piglet:
... However, a cup is a standard measure: a cup of butter, for instance is 8 oz. (or half a packet). ...

Piglet how can 8 oz of butter, which is a measure of weight, be 1 cup, which is a measure of volume, or is that just a happy accident. Presumably 8 oz of anything else will come out as a different fraction of cups?

I don't know whether this cup is a standard cup or the manufacturer's, or the manufacturer's dear old mum's, pet cup. I think the bread machine may have come from somewhere in the far east. If it is a standard cup, what volume actually would it be in fractions of a pint or mills? The conversion site you've linked to doesn't include a simple conversion table.

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Pomona
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Enoch, according to wikipedia atta flour has a low gluten content so you wouldn't get much rise, but given the low price of it you could try adding some wheat gluten (just looked on ebay and you can get it with free postage). Atta is durum wheat which is low gluten but high protein, so it's a strong dough - so it may not rise much on its own but it's not soft like a cake flour.

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Carex
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Piglet how can 8 oz of butter, which is a measure of weight, be 1 cup, which is a measure of volume, or is that just a happy accident.

A cup is half a pint, or 8 fluid ounces. Note that a fluid ounce is a measure of volume, not weight. A fluid ounce of water should weigh about one ounce.

Most American (and, it seems North American) bread recipes call for flour by volume rather than weight, and scales are relative rare in kitchens. Weight is much more accurate, of course, as the quantity of flour in a cup depends on how tightly it is packed. But I always add water / flour until the consistency looks right for the type of bread I am baking, so the exact amount of flour isn't critical.

Indeed, the first recipe I ever learned called for:
code:
    an egg
half an egg shell of water
enough flour
butter the size of a filbert
...


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John Holding

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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Piglet:
... However, a cup is a standard measure: a cup of butter, for instance is 8 oz. (or half a packet). ...

Piglet how can 8 oz of butter, which is a measure of weight, be 1 cup, which is a measure of volume, or is that just a happy accident. Presumably 8 oz of anything else will come out as a different fraction of cups?

I don't know whether this cup is a standard cup or the manufacturer's, or the manufacturer's dear old mum's, pet cup. I think the bread machine may have come from somewhere in the far east. If it is a standard cup, what volume actually would it be in fractions of a pint or mills? The conversion site you've linked to doesn't include a simple conversion table.

If your machine comes from the far east, its literature is probably targetted to US measures. Hence th cup.

US and Canadian dry measure is in multiples or fractions of a "cup" which is 8 fluid ounces. A UK pint is 20 fluid ounces, so you can do the math there. (my UK measuring cup shows fluid measures and flour/sugar measures by volume, but calibrated in ounces and ml -- so 10 ounces of flour equals 16 ounces of sugar by volume and both are about equal in volume to 1 pint or 20 fluid ounces).

FWIW, one 8 ounce (US) cup appears to be about 240 ml.

John

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Bread Porn !

Good pictures. Thanks for posting. The first one has a silky look to it from the outside.

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Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
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Enoch, you can buy cups in the UK. I have a metal set (having broken the handles off the previous plastic set), but you can also obtain fancy ceramic cups in the celebrity chef ranges.

According to the engraved handles:

1/4 cup = 60ml = 2 fl oz
1/3 cup = 80ml = 3 fl oz
1/2 cup = 125ml = 4 fl oz
1 cup = 250ml = 9 fl oz

the 1 cup has subdivisions in 25ml engraved inside and out.

I have recipes that use 1 cup flour to 1/3 cup shortening or whatever.

Cups are easier to use cooking with children.

I also have measuring spoons (equally metal replacements for broken plastic)

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Gee D
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Teaspoons, tablespoons and so forth are alright, but I don't find cup measures as accurate as weight. Measure out a cup of flour: if you take it straight from the packet, it's likely to be clumped together and to have larger air holes; if you sift it first, the finer flakes sit better together, with smaller and fewer air holes. A cup of sifted flour will usually weigh more.

Then you get to solids such as butter. I know that the easiest measure is to have a cup of water and add enough butter to reach the 2 cup mark. It's a lot easier just to weigh out 175 g (or whatever) on the scales.

My preference is to limit volume measures to very small quantities of dry ingredients, and to have weights for anything much bigger.

As to Piglets question about using coffee as the liquid in a sweet loaf - yes, you would get the flavour, but I think you'd need to use a very strong brew. When you put beer into bread, you're not after the flavour of beer, but a differently flavoured loaf, as well as getting a good effect on the rising.

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Lothlorien
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quote:
Teaspoons, tablespoons and so forth are alright,
Then you need to watch out for Aussie tablespoons which hold 20 ml, not 15ml like others.

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Carex
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quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
... A UK pint is 20 fluid ounces...

John

And an American pint is 16 fluid ounces, which is why there are 2 cups to the pint. (Assuming we are using the same type of ounces...)

It is good to know that the cups are relatively the same size in the US as in the Empire, however, even if the pints, quarts and gallons aren't.

Another useful conversion: 1/3 cup = 5 tablespoons + 1 teaspoon (unless, apparently, you are Australian.)

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John Holding

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quote:
Originally posted by Carex:
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
... A UK pint is 20 fluid ounces...

John

And an American pint is 16 fluid ounces, which is why there are 2 cups to the pint. (Assuming we are using the same type of ounces...)

It is good to know that the cups are relatively the same size in the US as in the Empire, however, even if the pints, quarts and gallons aren't.

Another useful conversion: 1/3 cup = 5 tablespoons + 1 teaspoon (unless, apparently, you are Australian.)

The 2 ounce difference in a cup is 25% -- hardly "relatively the same size." It's that 2 oz per cup difference that leads to the 4 oz difference in the pint, the 8 oz difference (one cup) in the quart and leads to 5ish Imperial gallons equallying 6ish US gallons.

John

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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quote:
Originally posted by Lothlorien:
quote:
Teaspoons, tablespoons and so forth are alright,
Then you need to watch out for Aussie tablespoons which hold 20 ml, not 15ml like others.
That's a serving spoon in our Canadian kitchen.

2 T (tablespoons) = 1/8 cup.

Butter we buy in 4 sticks to 454 g, which is 1 lb, and they have markings on them with T and parts of a cup, so the part you want can be just cut off and used.

Probably this is a foolish question, but I suspect none of you weighing bakers take scales on camping trips.

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Lamb Chopped
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Do you make things on camping trips that require more precision than "a pinch of this and a handful or two of that, whatever looks right?"

We don't. Which maybe says something about our lack of mad skillz...

ETA: suddenly thought--when you say camping, you do mean cooking over a fire outside, right? Not being in an RV or something? I meant the fire.

[ 21. October 2014, 02:37: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]

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Piglet
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
... I suspect none of you weighing bakers take scales on camping trips.

No - I just never go on camping trips. [Eek!]

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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music

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Lothlorien
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quote:
Probably this is a foolish question, but I suspect none of you weighing bakers take scales on camping trips.
One word:
Damper

Bear in mind there are as many methods and recipes for this as there are cooks. I used to use the cast iron camp oven for lots of things camping. This is one of them.

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jedijudy

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Lothlorien, it seems clear to me that I need to add a shovel to my baking tools! That was awesome!!

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Welease Woderwick

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That bush bread recipe looks fabulous!

If atta is low in gluten it explains why I had problems when I tried it some years ago - if I use half atta and half maida - the equivalent of plain flour here - do you think I will get a better result?

[ 21. October 2014, 12:37: Message edited by: Welease Woderwick ]

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Piglet
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That bloke clearly doesn't give a stuff about cup sizes, lbs or kgs. [Big Grin]

I didn't have the sound on - I'm at w*rk - what on earth were the ingredients that he put what looked like eight tablespoons of into the mix?

[Confused]

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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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From personal and very recent experience (like right now) do ensure soda bread is cooked for long enough. I think the baking powder may be 'tired' too.

It's OK, but best for mopping up egg and beans.

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Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Pomona
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# 17175

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quote:
Originally posted by Welease Woderwick:
That bush bread recipe looks fabulous!

If atta is low in gluten it explains why I had problems when I tried it some years ago - if I use half atta and half maida - the equivalent of plain flour here - do you think I will get a better result?

I didn't realise maida was the equivalent of plain flour, that's handy to know. It should help! You can definitely get big bags of maida in UK supermarkets in reasonably diverse areas - I think my local area may not be diverse enough but there are plenty of online sellers like Spices of India.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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# 15560

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I bake bread on camping trips, particularly on those wind-bound or rain days on canoe trips. Fire has to be coals, and bake in a dutch oven. This one. A good way is to also boil in water and then bake. Sort bagel like. Also known to make pies and cakes when camping.

Another thing to get is one of these: Bush pie maker. You can use slices of bread or uncooked bannock, and sandwich something like marshmallows and chocolate between them, or pie filling, or raisins soaked in sugared rum, or cheese, or fish you caught.

I can't watch the damper video, I think it close to what we call bannock: 1 cup of flour gets 1 t baking powder and 1 t sugar (optional, you can also add salt), and 1 T oil or butter. Mix with enough water that it is not sticky and fry, or, roll with hands into a long snake and wind around a 1" stick, bark peeled off and greased. You end up with what looks like a bannock finger cast which you can fill with a weiner, jam or whatever. Things to add to bannock dough: chocolate chips, raisins, cheese, granola, herbs, though not all of these at once. Common is to cook for supper or breakfast and take extra for lunch on the lake.

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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
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# 15560

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Maida and atta flour appear to be what we call durum in Canada. Often used for pasta and perogis.

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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Welease Woderwick

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# 10424

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quote:
Originally posted by Piglet:
That bloke clearly doesn't give a stuff about cup sizes, lbs or kgs. [Big Grin]

I didn't have the sound on - I'm at w*rk - what on earth were the ingredients that he put what looked like eight tablespoons of into the mix?

[Confused]

It was a dessert spoon, hence the full ones and the quarter ones, of both a particular yeast he uses and then of sugar. He did the salt in rather generous pinches.

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Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Welease Woderwick

Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424

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Old fashioned dry yeast obtained today so now all it requires is the time, the energy and, more importantly, the courage to have a go again.

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Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details

What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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Any views on bread boards and breadknives ? I am looking to replace mine as I think the board is harbouring more bacteria than a small sea.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Enoch
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# 14322

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Since there seem to be some quite knowledgeable people on this thread, can anyone answer the following?

When the people leave Egypt at the Exodus, they take with them, Ex 12:34, their kneading-troughs. The Hebrew, apparently is mishereth. Does anyone know whether kneading-troughs were a piece of basic domestic equipment from late Bronze/early Iron Age Egypt or an attempt to translate what mishereth was thought to mean into something familiar to people in C17 England?

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Firenze

Ordinary decent pagan
# 619

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Principal breadboard came with the husband - so that's above 30 years.

When I was 3 or so, my mother found a horn-handled knife down the back of a second hand sofa - which was then the family Breadknife for the next few decades.

So, probably not the best person to ask...

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Doublethink.
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# 1984

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In this case the equipment is inherited from grandparent, who died five years ago at the age of 98 - so the Lord only knows how old they are ...

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
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# 15560

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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Since there seem to be some quite knowledgeable people on this thread, can anyone answer the following?

When the people leave Egypt at the Exodus, they take with them, Ex 12:34, their kneading-troughs. The Hebrew, apparently is mishereth. Does anyone know whether kneading-troughs were a piece of basic domestic equipment from late Bronze/early Iron Age Egypt or an attempt to translate what mishereth was thought to mean into something familiar to people in C17 England?

As far as I know a kneading trough is something that holds dough in as it rises, to give it a shape before baking it. If they were going to make bread in the future, it makes sense to take one along, except if you're in a hurry, so maybe it is a mistranslation. Most people who aren't using loaf pans these days, use a bread shaping basket (bread basket), which you line with a towel covered in flour. Let the dough rise, transfer gently to a baking stone, and bake.

I would have expected that they might take bread baskets with them, they are also something to put bread in. A kneading trough sounds like wood or stone to me. But maybe that's what 17th century people used in place of baskets?

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Lamb Chopped
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# 5528

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They were carrying unrisen dough (being in a hurry). Wouldn't it make sense to carry it in the kneading trough it was probably already in (since you've got to take that too)? It's what we do, when we have to move hurriedly in the middle of some cooking project. (No, not out of Egypt, more likely out of the kitchen for a DYI reason)

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Any views on bread boards and breadknives ? I am looking to replace mine as I think the board is harbouring more bacteria than a small sea.

I like hardwood and bamboo boards. The bamboo are less porous, but don't seem to last as long. Plastic hold more bacteria, but are easier to sanitise.
Here is a potential compromise. I've not tried them, so cannot make a personal recommendation.

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Heavenly Anarchist
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# 13313

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We use a Lions Sabatier knife which is lovely and sharp, presumably bought from John Lewis (but not the one they currently have online, ours looks different and I'm sure we didn't pay that much!).
Wooden boards for bread here (I use separate plastic ones for cooking though) as we usually cut at the table as part of lunch.

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Moo

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# 107

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If you want to slice hot soft bread, an electric knife is the best tool.

Moo

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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I went with Tesco special offer in the end, as there doesn't seem to be much difference between the brands.

Currently proving dough for a muffin loaf, that the reciepe's author claims can be cooked in a microwave - we shall see ...

Having tried kneading a brioche dough and now this muffin dough, I have come to the view you can only hand knead a very soft dough by oiling your hands but also your kneading surface - rather than flouring it.

Do others find this ?

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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The muffin loaf looks like set porridge [Frown]

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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