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Source: (consider it) Thread: Eccles: Keeping church music contemporary
Gamaliel
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Ok - yes L'Organist, I bow to your superior wisdom on this one. Yes, I was thinking of improvisations but I also had the thing in mind about organ voluntaries tying in with the overall theme etc ...

I just didn't express that very well ...

[Hot and Hormonal]

And my wife is an organist so I have no excuse.

You expressed it better than I did or could.

I didn't hear the voluntary on Radio 4 that's been mentioned here - but I think the point wasn't so much that it was 'difficult' as that it would have appeared so to people born before a certain date.

I think that's a fair comment in the context of this discussion where 'timelessness' has been cited as a criterion.

Anyway - the point I was trying to make was whether it is possible to include 'art music' in a participatory way - or whether that should even be seen as aspiration.

Clearly, with an organ voluntary - or an organ improvisation - there can't be 'mass participation' in any hands-on way as not everyone present will be able to play the organ. The same applies to guitar-led worship too, of course.

In the case of a voluntary, one might sit and listen to it - be transported by it even.

But it couldn't be employed in a 'singalong' way.

Of course, that's not the intention of it, the organ voluntary serves a different purpose and one which can, indeed, integrate with everything else that has been going on - themes, mood etc etc.

I s'pose my question is, to what extent are we expecting whatever kind of music we have in church services/gatherings to be immediately accessible or immediately 'participatory'.

I get the impression with South Coast Kevin, for instance, that his view would be that if couldn't be quickly apprehended and sung along to by regulars and visitors then it should have no place - or at least a limited place - in the service at all.

Do we agree or disagree?

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
posted by Gamaliel
quote:
Organ voluntaries are twiddly bits tagged on at the end - they only make sense if you've heard what's gone on before.
Actually no, wrong.

Organ voluntaries are pieces of written repertoire that should be chosen to either reflect the liturgical season or mood, or to reflect the theme of the service.

I think what you may be thinking of are extemporisations (sometimes called improvisations): free-form playing on a given theme or on a shorter simpler piece played just before.

Of course, there are variations/improvisations that get written down - for example, Louis Vierne's Carillon de Westminster which is based on the Westminster chimes but in a different order.

As for the piece at the end of Sunday Worship on Radio 4 being 'just noise' KLB - I think you'll find it was one of Vierne's simpler pieces, the Carillon de Longpont.

I didn't say it was "just noise". I said it was discordant, and that someone brought up on the music of the 18th century, and possibly the early 19th, would not have appreciated the discords. Personally I liked it, but I can understand why someone from a more musically harmonious age would not. This is related to the point that parents traditionally regard the music of their children as "just noise" - their musical ear was developed on a very different style.

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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Is there a distinction between 'art music', I wonder, and music intended for communal participation?

I would say that all music is art. There is, of course, a distinction between music intended for performance by an individual or (relatively) small group and listened to by a community, and music intended to be performed by the community. But, I don't think that stops communally performed music being art. And, therefore, being as bound by culture as any other form of art.

[ 30. April 2014, 09:23: Message edited by: Alan Cresswell ]

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
... That's not quite true. It is true that many hymn tunes have their source in different contexts and were not originally composed for organ, but in most hymnals predating the mid-20th century, the arrangements are for an organ or organ-like instrument (harmonium, say). The arrangements are in four parts so that a choir can sing them in harmony while the accompanying instrument is playing, and each part is singable : there are no drastic leaps in range, and the parts don't go above or below a reasonable expectation of what that voice part would sing.

Up to a point Fr Weber, to quote Evelyn Waugh with his original meaning of that phrase.

That tends to be true from the mid C19 onwards. If you're regarding the late C19 as the ultimate source, I'd agree with you. But a lot of the tunes we sing hymns to date from the period 1550-1820.

There were very few organs. For one thing, they were very expensive. If a tune predates that era, it will usually have been written to be sung either by four or three voices. They are often set out that way. The air is quite frequently in the tenor line. The compilers of hymn books from the mid C19 reset everything to fit the expectation you are describing.
quote:

... And though certainly what you say about RVW's harmonizing of folk tunes is true, he went even further in many cases and regularized rhythm, often fitting the tunes into a four-square structure to make them easier for congregations to sing. If you compare, say, Shirley Collins' recording of "A Blacksmith Courted Me" with the RVW version of Monks Gate, you can see a similarity between the two, but that the RVW has been drastically smoothed out.

I agree with you there. Furthermore, a lot of folk songs are theoretically in Common or Ballad metre, but sit much more loosely than a hymn does on having the right number of syllables in each line.

A lot of printed copies of traditional songs in books with titles like 'Scotland Sings' have piano accompaniments added which now sound to us very nineteenth century. It wasn't just the words that were remade suitable for the parlour.

Of course, modern folk singers put their own style into what they sing as well.

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Alan Cresswell

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[tangent]
I'm preaching this Sunday, and finished off the sermon last night - barring the inevitable small revisions on the read through before printing it.

I've found myself picking up on the epistle about being foreigners (thanks Steve Longton for our long exchanges on that in Purg a few weeks ago, although my sermon takes the idea in a different direction) with the implication of different culture/language, and added in the Pentecost context of the reading from Acts with proclaiming the gospel in different languages. Which led me to how to communicate to people who have a different culture to ourselves. And, lo and behold I'm talking about contemporary music in church.

Although I go back to the epistle and conclude that our choice of worship style isn't all that important. It's having sincere and genuine love for each other that communicates the gospel across cultural boundaries.

[/tangent]

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stonespring
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Does anyone have any experience of Church music with a beat similar to the kind of music people would want to have sex to? Not pure techno thump thump but not a calm beat to rap to either. A boom chicka wow wow but with the synthesizer and Latin, African, and Indian influences that have been added to recent club music. The kind of beat that makes you think about a marriage between Bollywood and porn. This is the kind of music that I think Church really needs. The problem with all Pop-Style Christian music is that, regardless of the lyrics, it sounds like Popular Music with the sex drained out of it. Music is inherently about human creative energy and that includes sex even if you're not singing about sex. Classical music, jazz, and traditional gospel music (even traditional hymns) can all bring to mind getting down and freaky, even if that is not what they are about or what they were written for. Contemporary Christian Music and Praise and Worship Music - even Christian rock and rap - I think are composed too self-consciously and try too hard to be in the world but not of it. Music is about moving your hip s! The music played in ethnically African and Latin-American churches is more like what I am talking about, but to a culturally-Anglo white boy like me (albeit a half-Latino white boy with recent black ancestry) I have trouble relating to it. I want to get down (not have sex, get down) with Christian music that sounds like the naughty club music sung by hot naked women that makes gay boys like me scream. That's how I want to worship God. And I also want traditional Masses with Gregorian Chant. I need both. Thank you.
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Gamaliel
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Hmmm ... let's get this straight ... if that's the right word in this context ...

You don't want to have sex but you want to 'get down'?

[Eek!]

Is this a Clinton-ism? [Big Grin]

Of course, I know you mean 'get down' in the musical sense - ie. get down and boogie.

Not sure how to answer this question. The reason, of course, why some Christian traditions have been wary of music with a beat is because it might encourage thoughts of a sexual nature ...

Rather like the old joke about the reason Calvinists didn't have sex standing up is because they wouldn't want people to think they were dancing ...

It's often been observed by observers of the charismatic movement, for instance, that some of the ecstatic faces and 'oohhs' and 'mmmms' and so on that one might see or hear in charismatic services can have an unintended (?) sexual element.

I think it was Eutychus on these boards who once observed that psychologists tell us that the part of the brain that 'deals' with sexual impulses isn't that far away from the part which deals with religious feelings and so on.

We are creaturely creatures so the physical is very far away.

I'm not sure I'd want music that ... ahem ... has some kind of encoded sexual arousal mechanism hot-wired into it. YMMV.

One of the things I appreciate about more 'traditional' forms of church music is that they don't tend to tug at the bouncy-bouncy impulses.

I'm not suggesting that there is anything wrong with a beat or with something uptempo ... I'd defy anyone to get 'aroused' by traditional Salvation Army music for instance ... although I have no doubt that the Army's detractors flung that accusation at the Sally Army girls back in the day ...

It's well known that revivals on the US model - the camp meetings and so on - could often be accompanied by illicit behaviour - opportunities for sexually repressed young people to meet and hive off into the words.

Similar things happen at Spring Harvest and Soul Survivor, I've heard. I was once present when a couple were caught almost in flagrante at Spring Harvest back in the early '80s - but I don't think that was anything to do with the music - more youngsters full of hormones and trying to have a quick liaison before everyone else got back to the chalet.

And there were wierdo schismatic Orthodox groups in Russia who used to lash themselves into a sexual frenzy and end up writhing in mass orgies on the floor ...

I think, though, that if I ever saw any style of worship get rather 'hot' in the way you describe, Stonespring, I'd be like the News of The World reporters of old and make my excuses and leave ...

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Gamaliel
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Sorry, I meant to say that the physical is 'never very far away.'

That doesn't mean that we should encourage it, of course. Certainly not in a public worship context ...

Stranger things have happened though. But there is a time and place ...

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ecumaniac

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Jesus take me as I am, I can come no other way ?

Sorry. I'll get my hat

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
I want to get down (not have sex, get down) with Christian music that sounds like the naughty club music sung by hot naked women that makes gay boys like me scream. That's how I want to worship God. And I also want traditional Masses with Gregorian Chant. I need both. Thank you.

Maybe you could start an appropriate small group at your church...?
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stonespring
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Am I the only one that finds Christian pop insipid? Some of the rock tries to be "hard" and people have experimented with Christian hip hop. And there are Latin and African beats in the music of Christian recording artists from those cultures. But there seems to be a fear of using anything like the booty-shaking beats found in popular dance music. Christian music is either down tempo or lacks a strong bass or otherwise seems to have a Bawdlerized rhythm section. The recording studios are trying really hard to sell nothing that would get parents worried about what their kids are listening to. What is this, the 50's?
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Albertus
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
I want to get down (not have sex, get down) with Christian music that sounds like the naughty club music sung by hot naked women that makes gay boys like me scream. That's how I want to worship God. And I also want traditional Masses with Gregorian Chant. I need both. Thank you.

Maybe you could start an appropriate small group at your church...?
And why would anyone not want to join it...?
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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
Am I the only one that finds Christian pop insipid? Some of the rock tries to be "hard" and people have experimented with Christian hip hop. And there are Latin and African beats in the music of Christian recording artists from those cultures. But there seems to be a fear of using anything like the booty-shaking beats found in popular dance music. Christian music is either down tempo or lacks a strong bass or otherwise seems to have a Bawdlerized rhythm section. The recording studios are trying really hard to sell nothing that would get parents worried about what their kids are listening to. What is this, the 50's?

There are, of course, multiple factors at play.

One is that the number of people writing and performing "Christian music" is relatively small compared to main stream pop music. What is the proportion of main stream musicians who are actually sufficiently talented/lucky enough to progress beyond glorified hobbyists with maybe regular gigs at a local club? If the same percentage applies to "Christian musicians" then the number of really good talented groups will be very small, and the range of music styles they play will also be smaller.

Another factor is that music is a commercial operation. The companies producing "Christian music" (like companies producing mainstream music) have a marketing strategy that identifies who is most likely to buy music, and targeting their output to that audience. A large part of that audience would be self-identified as evangelical, and I know we have all sorts of hang-ups that the marketing people will know about and take into consideration when deciding if a particular band/artist would appeal to a large enough audience to be worth taking a commercial risk on. There are probably examples of Christian music on You-tube and elsewhere on the internet that are in many of the areas you identify as lacking, but you'd need to know where to find them and they probably wouldn't have the professional quality of the commercial music.

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Gamaliel
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Why would you want rock or pop music that was specifically Christian? Why not just have music in those genres - and if it happens to be written/performed by Christians then fine ...

There are Christian poets and novelists who don't always write about specifically Christian themes.

Why do we want these ghetto genres?

If you want to listen to music with the kind of rhythms that appeal to you, go ahead. Why expect there to be Christian versions?

I really don't get that.

I've got friends who are into the Christian music scene big time - some even eke out a living in it as broadcasters etc.

I can never understand why. I don't get it. I really don't understand the appeal.

If you want to listen to rock music, listen to rock music. If you want to listen to music with Afro or Asian rhythms then go ahead, there is plenty to choose from.

Why expect Christian versions of it?

If I wanted to listen to world-music from Mali, say, and I have some CDs of that, I'd get copies of the original stuff. I wouldn't want to listen to some Christian 'take' on it unless of course there was a grassroots Christian version of the same thing that wasn't done simply to provide some kind of Christian 'response'.

Back in the day, I'd listen to The Clash. I still do at times. Why would I have wanted to listen to some sub-standard, sanitised Christian approximation of the same genre?

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Alan Cresswell

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I used to listen to quite a lot of "Christian music" - though never exclusively.

Part of it was a ghetto mentality. I never fully bought into it, but in some parts of evangelicalism it's part and parcel of faith - probably related quite strongly to passages like the 1 Peter verses I'm preaching on about being seperate from the world. Christian music, Christian novels, Christian summer camps, Christian schools (or home schooling material), Christian lawyers and accountants ...

For me, the music I listened to was a combination of what my Christian friends were listening too (is that any different from anyone else, they listen to music their friends listen to?), it was music I could listen to and get a spiritual lift, music I could sing along to in the privacy of my own room in personal devotion, probably a few other factors too.

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Gamaliel
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Sure, I understand all that, Alan. I deplore it though. It used to freak me out when I visited evangelical Christian homes to find that the only music they had was 'Christian' music, the only books they had on their shelves were the popular Christian paperbacks and so on ...

[Ultra confused]

Sure, I bought into a lot of that back in the day, but I never went as far as some of my peers.

There are degrees and gradations of these things, of course and I daresay there are places one could go connected with other Christian traditions where the only books/CDs etc etc on show would be those connected with that particular tradition or churchmanship.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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Stonespring - link here to one of our leaders' band's music. Insipid it isn't, whatever else...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJvdXrm8bYM

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MrsBeaky
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But, Gamaliel, isn't there a difference between the music (including the lyrics) which we use when we gather together as Christians (in all the various guises) and what we choose to listen to at home or at a concert for our own pleasure and edification?

For me, in both scenarios lyrics play a really important part as well as the music. But the lyrics especially (whether they be in Latin or very modern language!).
There is a lot of "Christian music" which leaves me cold (both in church services and outside of that context)and it is usually more because of the lyrics than the musical style. But there are some songs which come under the "Christian music" genre which I enjoy listening to and which I find uplifting but which I wouldn't want to sing as part of corporate worship as they are not appropriate lyrically even thought their themes might be personally uplifting.
So I am wondering if the lyrics are the more definitive factor in this debate? But having said that I can think of lots of reasons why that might not be right...hey ho!

P.S. Edited to make it clear that most of the music I listen to is not from the "Christian Music" genre but I find it equally challenging if it has the right lyrics and equally uplifting musically.

[ 01. May 2014, 09:43: Message edited by: MrsBeaky ]

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South Coast Kevin
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Lyrics are important to me too. So I guess for some people who only listen to so-called Christian music, it's about trying to listen only to music that is 'sound', as it were; music that contains messages and an overall ethos that one agrees with.

I understand this motive, although I certainly don't listen only to Christian music myself (partly I think because I believe there is (a) some truth in many - all? - non-Christian philosophies, and (b) some error in all Christian viewpoints; only listening to Christian music will by no means guarantee that only wholesome, Godly sounds enter my ears...).
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I get the impression with South Coast Kevin, for instance, that his view would be that if couldn't be quickly apprehended and sung along to by regulars and visitors then it should have no place - or at least a limited place - in the service at all.

On the whole, I think this is my view. I agree with Alan that music, as with everything artistic, is culturally defined; so music that one culture or group of people finds very moving and effective in helping them to engage with God, another group of people will find alien and irrelevant, or indeed patronisingly trite (the cultural clash can go both ways!).

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stonespring
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When I say "Christian Music," I mean "Music that can be (and is) used during Christian worship," not music with Christian themes that people listen to outside of worship. I am of the opinion (contrary to thousands of years of teaching) that any melody, harmony, or rhythm can be used in Christian worship as long as the words themselves are appropriate for the worship. The only melodies that can't be used, in my opinion, are ones that are too reminiscent of contemporary secular songs (you could write a wonderful hymn to the melody of "Oops! I did it again!" but in singing it it would be very hard to focus on the lyrics).

That's why I don't get why certain sounds (like what I call the "booty shaking" sound) are almost impossible to find in the Christian music that is for sale.

As for the traditional Mass with Gregorian chant (and traditional hymns), I think that's really important to have, but I don't see why you can't work twerking for Jesus into one of the quiet moments in the Ordinary form like after the Prayers of the Faithful but before the offertory procession or after communion and before the prayer after communion.

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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
When I say "Christian Music," I mean "Music that can be (and is) used during Christian worship," not music with Christian themes that people listen to outside of worship.

You didn't make that clear. We had been talking about music intended for individual performance being used in worship, and how that rarely works. Which does bring us to the next point.

quote:
I am of the opinion (contrary to thousands of years of teaching) that any melody, harmony, or rhythm can be used in Christian worship as long as the words themselves are appropriate for the worship.
For congregational singing that is clearly not the case. There are styles of music that can only be performed by trained musicians. The vast majority of people in a congregation wouldn't be able to sing opera (unless your congregation is the CU at a school of opera), or rap, or a wide range of other musical styles including much of the folk-rock stuff that people actually do try to get congregations to sing.

For music performed by the music group/choir/organist/whatever the range of possibilities is larger. It would still be restricted by the musical abilities that group/individual has. But, even if you had a music group capable of performing any style (or, using recorded music was acceptable) the music has to fit liturgically into the rest of the service - and that adds further restrictions. Plus, it has to fit into the cultural experience of at least a large minority of the congregation - and not be too far outwith the cultural experience of any more than a small minority of the congregation.

The result is that the vast majority of music used in worship falls into a middle ground.

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Fr Weber
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
... That's not quite true. It is true that many hymn tunes have their source in different contexts and were not originally composed for organ, but in most hymnals predating the mid-20th century, the arrangements are for an organ or organ-like instrument (harmonium, say). The arrangements are in four parts so that a choir can sing them in harmony while the accompanying instrument is playing, and each part is singable : there are no drastic leaps in range, and the parts don't go above or below a reasonable expectation of what that voice part would sing.

Up to a point Fr Weber, to quote Evelyn Waugh with his original meaning of that phrase.

That tends to be true from the mid C19 onwards. If you're regarding the late C19 as the ultimate source, I'd agree with you. But a lot of the tunes we sing hymns to date from the period 1550-1820.

There were very few organs. For one thing, they were very expensive. If a tune predates that era, it will usually have been written to be sung either by four or three voices. They are often set out that way. The air is quite frequently in the tenor line. The compilers of hymn books from the mid C19 reset everything to fit the expectation you are describing.

I see what you're saying. I think we basically agree on this, and perhaps we were talking past each other.

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Sorry, I meant to say that the physical is 'never very far away.'

That doesn't mean that we should encourage it, of course. Certainly not in a public worship context ...

Stranger things have happened though. But there is a time and place ...

You mean like this famous statue.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-T9B_9M6Clug/UKv6G36ku7I/AAAAAAAAAEE/apCkxMmmkzI/s1600/bernini_st_teresa_avila.jpg

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Gamaliel
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Well, yes ...

I know Stonespring is winding us all up - at least I hope he is - but I do think that there can be an inappropriate 'sensuality' in some forms of music and art that make them unsuitable for use in Christian worship.

I'm certainly no prude and don't believe for a moment that not allowing twerking, say, in worship services would correspond necessarily with an overly fastidious and Puritanical attitude towards the human body and so on ...

(Actually, the Puritans weren't at all Puritanical about sex or other bodily functions, but that's by the by)

Some Christian traditions have very strict rules on what's permissible in terms of musical style and indeed iconography and so on - and I can certainly see why this would be the case.

I s'pose the bottom line (literally in the case of twerking) has to be whether other people are going to be offended in some way. Stonespring might find twerking acceptable in church services but other people certainly wouldn't ...

He could always try it and see what reaction he gets ...

[Razz]

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:

Why do we want these ghetto genres?

If you want to listen to music with the kind of rhythms that appeal to you, go ahead. Why expect there to be Christian versions?

I really don't get that.


It's personal taste, so what is there to 'get'?

I don't mind what sort of 'Christian music' people listen to any more than I mind whether people listen to love songs set to jazz, classical, hip hop, reggae, punk or heavy metal, etc. The old saying is that there's only two kinds of music: good and bad. If so, then it hardly matters what kind of music Christian lyrics are set to.

I don't know about the CofE, but if the other churches all suddenly decided to limit themselves to 'traditional music' they'd probably now find it impossible to attract organists and classically trained choirs. But they might have a guitarist, or someone who studied jazz piano. Why wouldn't they use those skills? It's also likely that the contingent they're attracting increasingly relates to non-traditional music. It's hardly surprising if those folks bring their private tastes the church, or if they take the church music they love into their homes.

Anyway, I'm sure the CofE will always maintain some places of excellence for traditional church music, so there's no need to worry that it'll all die out.

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L'organist
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posted by Svitlana2
quote:
Anyway, I'm sure the CofE will always maintain some places of excellence for traditional church music, so there's no need to worry that it'll all die out.
Nice thought but I fear you're being rather too complacent.

To attract children (actually their parents) to audition for cathedral choir schools you need people to (a) realise they exist, (b) be interested enough to want a child to go there, and (c) be prepared for their child to board. All that BEFORE you get onto the question of aptitude and ability. Larger places may get a decent pool of candidates but others are scratching round to find potential choristers.

To attract sufficient would-be choristers you need local choirs for children to start off in, or at least hear. You also need good singing in schools - and that is under pressure in the state sector too.

At a time when places are strapped for cash choirs are under increasing pressure - the larger cathedrals may be fine by the smaller ones aren't in such a good place.

A terrible sign of what may be to come is Llandaff, which sacked all its adult lay clerks just before Christmas - this despite the fact that the current Master of Music has taken the choir from run-of-the-mill to one of the most highly regarded in the UK.

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Gamaliel
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It all boils down to what 'model' of church we want or expect, of course.

I think that South Coast Kevin's approach makes sense if:

- We share his convictions on what church should 'look' like. Not everyone does.

- We have small, loosely organised groups meeting in a relatively low-tech way in small venues with very little overhead (maintenance, restoration funds, paid staff etc).

This may well become the default position as Christendom crumbles and church attendance continues to decline.

It's an interesting conundrum. What happens at a place like Llandaff if the resources aren't there to sustain the high standards?

Would they be able to survive with 'lower standards'?

I think South Coast Kevin's key point about these things emerging organically from the needs/conditions of the local congregation is a potent one.

I know I often use the Orthodox as an example, but I think they are pertinent here as they are an example of a highly traditional historic Church which is attempting to plant parishes and to grow here in the UK.

Our nearest English-speaking parish has proven quite innovative in terms of recycling fitments, carving home-made decorations and so on. They have learned to make-do-and-mend. At one time they used to rely on cantors who travelled a long distance to lead the Easter services, for instance. Now they have home-grown talent - and a highly skilled former cathedral chorister as a Reader.

If this were a South Coast Kevin style church, then there would be parallels ... someone mastering the guitar to a certain level, someone sourcing material for the songs and services from various sources ...

It all depends on the context.

As for the issue of 'keeping church music contemporary' - I'd have thought that the main issue isn't whether the music is contemporary or not - but whether it is appropriate to its setting.

In some settings - such as a South Coast Kevin one - a simple guitar and keyboard arrangement might suffice. Elsewhere, there may be a need for more elaborate choral effects.

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South Coast Kevin
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
It's an interesting conundrum. What happens at a place like Llandaff if the resources aren't there to sustain the high standards?

Would they be able to survive with 'lower standards'?

Thanks for your above post, Gamaliel. Very gracious, I thought. On L'organist's example of the choir at Llandaff, I suppose the approach has to be that we adapt and make do with what resources we have. If a church is struggling to put on the 'standard' of service it wants - be that in terms of a skilled choir, a professional contemporary band, experienced preachers etc. - it has to decide what can be done without and what really is (as they see it) essential to the worship experience.

And of course, every church is likely to face this issue at some point, whatever its style, size or other characteristics.

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
... This may well become the default position as Christendom crumbles and church attendance continues to decline.

It's an interesting conundrum. What happens at a place like Llandaff if the resources aren't there to sustain the high standards?

Would they be able to survive with 'lower standards'?

I think South Coast Kevin's key point about these things emerging organically from the needs/conditions of the local congregation is a potent one.

I know I often use the Orthodox as an example, but I think they are pertinent here as they are an example of a highly traditional historic Church which is attempting to plant parish s and to grow here in the UK....

They also had to survive for some 60 years in a country which was determined to wipe them out, blew up many churches and converted others into tractor factories, swimming pools and community centres.

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Gamaliel
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Thanks South Coast Kevin ... [Hot and Hormonal]

I'm touched by your response.

I thought my comments were more pragmatic rather than gracious ... but there we go.

What I'm trying to demonstrate is that I don't think thee and me are a million miles apart in terms of the practicalities or an emphasis on churches/groups developing a more 'organic' way of operating.

I'm with you in principle on the small-group/grassroots thing ... I don't think there's any disagreement there.

However, the shape and nature of our worship practices are always going to be governed to some extent by our traditions and proclivities ...

So, for instance, with newly developing Orthodox congregations in the UK or re-emergent ones in Russia, we don't see them ignoring iconography, chants or fasts and festivals - we see them trying to work all those things in according to the resources available.

They haven't suddenly adopted guitars and singalongable worship songs for instance ...

How sustainable retreat-houses, convents and monasteries and so on are going to be as Christendom dissolves is a moot point - but I don't think that grass-roots developments automatically mean contemporary music styles and so on ...

I'm not sure South Coast Kevin does either.

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:

A terrible sign of what may be to come is Llandaff, which sacked all its adult lay clerks just before Christmas - this despite the fact that the current Master of Music has taken the choir from run-of-the-mill to one of the most highly regarded in the UK.

It's sad for the individuals concerned, but almost all churches are having to cut back now in some way. As I said, the CofE may have to focus on a limited number of centres of excellence in traditional church music, but most churches simply won't have the people, skills or resources to provide this kind of thing, even if there's some demand for it.

For most British Christians in the mainstream denominations 'traditional' worship will simply mean a smallish congregation singing fairly old hymns along to a piano, or an organ if they're lucky. Or a keyboard that can double up as both. I even know of one church without an organist whose electronic organ only plays pre-recorded hymns. If this suits the congregation then fine, but I'm not sure how it's objectively superior to a worship band.

Anyway, I'm surprised that the CofE isn't using its popular state schools to develop the traditional musical skills that might be of use to the church.

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Baptist Trainfan
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There are also "proper" organs where someone can record the tunes into the system in advance, and then get the organ to "play back" during the service. Not ideal, but it works, and the organist and a congregation can make allowances for their specific foibles!
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Zappa
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Our $800,000 upgrade to the organ includes that capacity, but I suspect the Director of Music would garrotte anyone who threatened to utilise it ...

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Olaf
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quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
Our $800,000 upgrade to the organ includes that capacity, but I suspect the Director of Music would garrotte anyone who threatened to utilise it ...

No recording can replace a proficient organist working in tandem with the choir and the congregation in "real time"--not even a recording of that same organist. The recording tool is best utilized by that same organist to enhance her/his own performance by supplementing what s/he is playing. Essentially, it is a duet with oneself, but should only be done on music without words.
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SvitlanaV2
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The recordings aren't mean to replace live organists; they exist to replace non-existent organists!

If you have the staff, that's great. But in nondescript parts of England there must be lots of small congregations that already have to do without organists, or who will expect to see many faithful organists grow infirm or pass away in the next 30-odd years.

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Lamb Chopped
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The recordings can be a blessing for smaller churches in the US too. We don't have access to them, and we have no musicians, so it's been a capella singing since 2006.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
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Alex Cockell

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quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Basically, it takes someone in the church familiar with modern worships who understands how to use them in worship. Rather than treating them as "new hymns"

Yes, this is a really good point. Some newer songs - I've got Stuart Townend's in mind - are written as 'new hymns', but a lot, especially the 'Vineyard-y' or 'New Wine-y' ones, are intended to be used in groups, creating what one might call a 'liturgical event' when put together with prayer, thought and skill.

So, yeah, moving wholesale from the 'hymn sandwich' model to the 'worship set' model will always take a lot of work, and will most likely upset plenty of people in the church! I wasn't really thinking about such a major upheaval in my thread starter; I more had in mind the situation where a church is trying to introduce a few new hymns / songs while keeping the overall format broadly the same.

Currently, Premier just played out Oh To see the dawn (Townend/Getty) segued into acapella When I survey.. Sounds like it had been recorded at Spring Harvest or similar.

A lot of older numbers have been retooled, with a response chorus added etc (Chris Tomlin does this a lot)

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Curiosity killed ...

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@Alex - the point is that songs segued together fit within a very different service from a traditional Eucharistic service where the format is often:
Greeting hymn
Welcome, confession and absolution,
Gloria
First reading(s)
Psalm / gradual hymn
Gospel reading
Sermon
Offertory hymn
Eucharist
(hymns during Eucharist)
Post communion hymn
Blessing and sending out

There is no real place within that sequence to fit a extended hymn segue so to do so means a complete rewriting of the service format or in reality the use of a different format altogether - which is more complicated than just adding a few new hymns to a service.

As an example of challenge of introducing new hymns, at one point we were occasionally getting Purify my Soul (Refiner's Fire) to sing as a gradual. Now it was fine until the chorus when everybody who hadn't been away to Christian camp, ie 95% of the congregation, got lost at the first Be-e-e-e-e-e holy. I googled it on YouTube, realised what the problem was, pointed it out to the organist (no, we were singing to piano and the accompaniment doesn't give a clue to that extended note) saying that if we were to sing it someone had to lead the damn thing first so the rest of the congregation stood a chance of singing it. As I wasn't volunteering (I genuinely can't sing) the song got dropped.


quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Anyway, I'm surprised that the CofE isn't using its popular state schools to develop the traditional musical skills that might be of use to the church.

The implication here is that Church of England state schools are run by the CofE, which isn't true. The weasel word that you've missed is "state", which means CofE schools are state schools funded by the state and have to follow national guidance on curriculum*. CofE schools may well be in church buildings and their governing bodies will have a few church governors as part of the overall number but the way state schools are governed, the church governors are a minority. In theory CofE schools have better links with their local church and a Christian assembly, but that's not necessarily so, and not necessarily different to anything provided by non-Church schools.

* the National Curriculum is currently in rewrite and in abeyance until 2015, but there is still national advice on what should be taught.

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SvitlanaV2
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Point taken about CofE state schools, although I wasn't referring to all such schools but to those that are 'popular.' The ones that insist on church attendance for entry surely sell themselves as places where Christian values and aspects of church culture are emphasised? If nothing else, the children of ambitious parents must, with some training, be ideal chorister material these days? Maybe not.

[ 04. May 2014, 12:28: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

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Belle Ringer
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Today I attended an Episcopalian contemporary service that managed to combine the "multiple songs in one set" with the traditional liturgy, and do it well!

Opening of a couple of songs, then the opening words and collect, then a worship set. I expected nothing but spoken words from then on, the "hymns" all having been moved to the worship set, but it wasn't like that.

True, there was no hymn before the gospel, but much of what followed the peace was sung, including an upbeat "doxology", and the people singing lines I've only heard spoken before. For example "in the night in which he was betrayed" was sung by a song leader, and the quotations "This is my body..." were sung by the congregation.

So although in one sense "the hymns" had been moved to the opening worship set, there still was music throughout the service because different parts than I am used to hearing sung were congregationally sung. It didn't mimic non-demonimationals by being all music then all spoken.

This is the first time I've heard contemporary music used as designed (as described by some here) within the traditional liturgical format.

Of course, a professional quality band was a help, and a building designed for contemporary worship including well trained sound board and projection staff (no wrong verses on screen!) and screens that looked like they belonged instead of awkwardly fitted in. There are advantages to being a church with five full time clergy and the money to afford that much activity.

(My friend who went to the Rite 1 service that met at the same time as the contemporary said the choir voices, as they processed by, all sounded like they were professionally trained. Most of us can't dream of that standard for our music programs.)

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Gamaliel
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That sounds interesting, Belle Ringer, but as you say, it would take significant resources to achieve.

Five full-time clergy! [Eek!]

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South Coast Kevin
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Thanks for that, Belle Ringer, although I note the resources required to put on such a service.
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
But in nondescript parts of England there must be lots of small congregations that already have to do without organists, or who will expect to see many faithful organists grow infirm or pass away in the next 30-odd years.

This is why I think guitar-led worship makes so much sense nowadays. Plenty of people play the guitar a bit, buying a guitar doesn't cost a fortune, and I think learning how to play well enough to lead some songs at a small church service is not horrendously difficult.

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Gamaliel
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You would think so, South Coast Kevin, but it is interesting to note that what we've seen since the guitar first started to regular appear in a worship context ...

What we've seen isn't a growth in the kind of informal, rather ad hoc (and I don't mean that in a derogative way) gatherings of the kind you describe and favour.

Instead, what we've seen is the development of a kind of 'scene' - with all the marketing and puff that goes with all of that, people using the same material from the same sources ...

The small worship band and guitar thing was in evidence when it was all kum-by-yah and Peter, Paul and Mary folksy stuff ... church music a la that 60s group The Seekers ...

But now it's all become sub and cod Coldplay.

What's happened is that people have been to the large gatherings - the Spring Harvests and the New Wines and so on - and are trying to replicate the same effect back at their local church level - without the resources to achieve that.

To pare it all back to the bone would require a shift in ideology and emphasis, I would suggest - and that's a far harder thing to achieve.

I would say the same thing in a different context too - to those parish churches which try to emulate cathedral worship without the resources to pull it off, for instance.

I think these things aren't simply a problem within the charismatic evangelical constituency. There are parallels in other traditions.

In those traditions which favour choral music - or acapella singing in the case of the Orthodox (and some Protestant groups in the USA too, it must be said) then at the very least you need someone who can hold a tune or tone ... and that requires some training.

I don't know whether South Coast Kevin is old enough to remember punk, but I well remember the famous fanzine which had a diagram showing the finger positions for a guitar fret-board:

'This is a chord, this is a second ... this is a third ... Now form a band.'

That was great. The revolution had come. Anyone could make music, anyone could form a band. Lots of people did. Some of it had a raw, home-made feel, some of it was dire.

Soon, of course, the whole thing had become a scene - and let's face it, the Sex Pistols were 'manufactured' right from the outset. The whole thing was nowhere near as grass-roots and spontaneous as it appeared.

I may be old and cynical but I suspect that if people did pare it all back and have simpler, less hi-tech approaches - a few people in a hired hall strumming guitars - then before long they'd be discussing what amps to acquire, what mixing desks, what ...

You see, I've seen it all before.

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Gamaliel
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Wow - someone's even got a copy of that fanzine for us to download! What a star!

I remember seeing it at a mate's house. But memory is a funny thing. I might have just as easily seen the original drawing reproduced in the NME or Melody Maker ... it did spark a flurry or reproductions and debate.

See: http://daveo-musicandstuff.blogspot.co.uk/2011/03/sideburns-no1-this-is-chord-this-is.html

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Let us with a gladsome mind
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Jengie jon

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Gamaliel

The very least you require with acapella is someone who can pitch a tune. That requires no training only a mid range voice (low alto/high tenor). I know I have done it and my music training is not anything above high school music lessons. I also need other voices to carry a tune. The reason is that with a group that knows the music well then once the initial few notes are sung the group itself carries the tune.

Remember the extreme form of this the cantor is chosen for their holiness of life not for their ability to hold a tune.

Jengie

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South Coast Kevin
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Correlation doesn't mean causation, Mr Gamaliel... [Smile]

I've just been reading the book Selling Worship by Pete Ward. I found it fascinating how, like Gamaliel says, apparently the so-called charismatic renewal began in the late 1960s (I think that's what Ward said) with a very do-it-yourself mentality, but this gradually morphed into the commercialised Contemporary Christian Music 'scene' that now dominates charismatic Christianity in the white western world.

So yes, I agree with much of Gamaliel's analysis, but I wouldn't put it down to the rise of guitar-based church music. Parallel developments IMO.

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Gamaliel
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Yes indeed, Jengie Jon. I agree. Apologies for having temporarily forgotten acapella Gaelic Psalm singing/chanting.

I've not heard you sing or chant but believe you me, my musical abilities are limited to say the least. However, when I've done the Anglican chant thing at Compline services - once I'd overcome some initial embarrassment - I was told by the clergyperson that I'd done it very well. She even wondered whether I had a vocation ... although she did say that wasn't based simply on my ability to hold the tone ...

[Hot and Hormonal]

I've no idea whether she was right or wrong on that score.

The point, of course, is that whether we favour guitar-led worship (as South Coast Kevin does) or whether we would consider the kind of acapella Psalm singing exemplified on your link - it's ultimately a decision based on theological and churchmanship criteria as well as socio-cultural ones.

I can't imagine South Coast Kevin recommending metrical Psalm singing or acapella chant of any kind. The kind of guitar-led worship he prefers lends itself to the singing of contemporary worship songs - although it is possible, of course, to arrange traditional hymns for guitar.

The thing is, though, there are small group settings for worship in all Christian traditions. Heck, I even remember seeing some Orthodox monks in Greece singing with a guitar - although this was a folk-style song for exhortation purposes rather than something for liturgical use ...

I've not been to many Anglican compline services but I've never heard musical accompaniment at any of them. The same with 8am 1662 Prayer Book communion services.

In university chaplaincies and so on there will often be a lunch-time act of worship with no music or singing whatsoever - simply prayers and readings following a simple liturgy on photocopied paper. I've seen this done in both Anglican and Free Church chaplaincy settings.

I don't have an issue with guitars and so on, but all I'd suggest is that there are other ways to proceed. If there isn't any one gifted musically present at the time then why not simply use a printed liturgy with some extemporary prayers if one wishes to include those?

There are plenty of examples and they are cheaply available. There's loads of material out there. Why do we have to stick to - or adopt - the kind of 'medley' approach with one song segue-ing into another?

There are no scriptural or theological reasons for this, it's simply become a style that has developed and gained in popularity since the growth of the big charismatic evangelical conventions.

Back in the day, in Brethren assemblies and other evangelical settings there were times of less 'formal' worship led by piano-accordions. They were the guitars of their day.

Sure, guitars are relatively simple and readily available but even where they aren't I'd suggest that there is material and means we can use provided we are prepared to think outside of the so-called 'contemporary' box.

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Curiosity killed ...

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I've attended a few Compline services, and they've all been unaccompanied, just led by a good singer. I've also attended Taize style services with minimal musical accompaniment, but we had a good singer there too - and Evensong services with no choir or organ, where we chanted the psalms.

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Gamaliel
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Sorry, cross-posted - yes, I've read reviews and synopses of Peter Ward's 'Selling Worship' I think - I may even have read the book itself but my memory fails me ...

Sure, correlation isn't necessarily causation. I agree with that. I think it's more subtle, though, than a direct causal relation. Parallel development isn't necessarily evident of causation but I'm old enough and ugly enough to have seen how these things have developed. I wasn't involved with the emergence of the charismatic thing back in the 1960s - I was just a kid - but I knew and know plenty of people who were. My mother-in-law first got involved with it all back around 1963-64 so she would have been one of the 'early adopters' as it were.

All I am suggesting is that the kind of pure, unsullied, uncommercialised 'scene' that South Coast Kevin yearns for is actually rather difficult to achieve. The popularity of worship songs and choruses was driven - to a large extent - by the large gatherings and also by sales of cassettes - and later CDs.

Back in the day, I remember the stir caused by recordings of 'live worship' from the Dales Bible Week and so on - even across settings that would not have identified with the theology or practices espoused there.

The stable door is already open, South Coast Kevin. None of us are operating in a vacuum. If thee or me started a church in our nearest hireable hall tomorrow then we'd still be drawing from whatever 'scene' there is out there - with its concomitant compromises, means of production and distribution and so on.

That is inevitable. As sure as eggs are eggs.

The only choices we have are to do with how we 'manage' all that.

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South Coast Kevin
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I don't have an issue with guitars and so on, but all I'd suggest is that there are other ways to proceed. If there isn't any one gifted musically present at the time then why not simply use a printed liturgy with some extemporary prayers if one wishes to include those?

Why not indeed. I'd be fine with this, although I do think there is something special (for most, but not all, people) about music in how it touches our emotions and thus can help us connect with God in the emotional sense.

There's obviously the corollary danger of music being used to manipulate and bring about certain emotional / behavioural responses and this is one reason why I'm so keen on the multi-participative low-key approach, as against the highly-skilled 'worship band' approach as typified by festivals like New Wine.

EDIT - Cross-posted with Gamaliel's most recent post, with which I agree pretty much 100%.

[ 05. May 2014, 09:55: Message edited by: South Coast Kevin ]

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