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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Eccles: Keeping church music contemporary
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
I'm old enough to have caught the tail-end of four-part harmony in Welsh chapels.
My impression is that it was already dying out but the emergence of the contemporary worship song put paid to it entirely.
Back in the day there were plenty of Baptist, Methodist and other non-conformist churches that went in for four-part harmony during congregational hymn-singing - particularly in those industrial areas (South Wales, The Potteries) where there was a grass-roots choral tradition based on choirs in mills and mines and potbanks.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
Gamaliel
That's interesting. Can you explain why these skills weren't transferable to the singing of contemporary worship songs? After all, the bands singing worship songs in videos often have backing singers or other performers who sing in harmony.
When I lived in South Wales about 15 years ago the Methodist and Baptist churches I attended were still singing hymns, but I don't remember much distinctive harmonising.
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
Most contemporary worship songs are written to be performed by Christian music stars, and are then adopted by congregations, rather than being written specifically for congregational singing.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
Does worship music employ more complicated harmonies than hymns?
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Gamaliel
That's interesting. Can you explain why these skills weren't transferable to the singing of contemporary worship songs? After all, the bands singing worship songs in videos often have backing singers or other performers who sing in harmony.
I'm not Gamaliel, and I don't speak for him. However, my own experience is that contemporary music is written for melody, or occasionally soprano/tenor as opposed to SATB*. My vocal range is perfect for most SATB (I'm a B), but the majority of the contemporary stuff is set at an odd pitch for me. It's too high to sing melody, but too low to sing harmony. Chris Tomlin is especially bad about that. I am trying to learn how to sing tenor so maybe I can cope. Most of the time I just stand and listen and sing as best I can.
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*There are exceptions to every rule and someone will come along and tell me this long list of songs written in the past 20 years that have full harmonization. I say great, but that's not the general rule -- I listen to Christian radio enough to know that.
[ 07. May 2014, 18:52: Message edited by: Barefoot Friar ]
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Does worship music employ more complicated harmonies than hymns?
It's not really the same thing. Worship music is generally written for one voice, not multiple voices.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
Thanks for these comments. However, it does look as though some of you experienced and trained church musicians might be missing a trick here: why not get together with some of the Christian songwriters and write new arrangements to some of the songs that would be best suited to congregational singing? Or indeed, collaborate in order to produce some completely new songs?
(Or, you could ditch that stuff entirely and just go back to the oldies! There are plenty of churches that still sing them!)
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
Well, there are going to be churches who sing the latest Matt Redman/Chris Tomlin etc whatever it is, and wouldn't have the same interest in something less well-known just because it's easier to sing. Sad, I think, but true. I am also not sure that they'd listen to an organist! FYI I am not a musician (can't even read music though I think I have a pretty good ear for it - I have dyscalculia, though apparently instruments like guitars/ukuleles etc that use tabs are much easier to play for dyscalculics), nor am I a trained singer. I was in the (very casual!) choir at my secular secondary school, and obviously sing in church, but that's about it.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
SvitlanaV2, I'm talking about 30 years ago. The harmonising had largely died out in congregational hymn singing in South Wales by the time you visited 15 years back.
Heck, it had all but died out 30 years back when I effectively caught the tail-end of it.
I wouldn't be surprised if it carried on in more rural areas though - and may still do in some places.
But to all intents and purposes I think that four-part harmonising in congregational singing has all but died out.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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A.Pilgrim
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# 15044
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Jade
You have my sympathy: as an alto, the alto line for NEH hymns would be well within your comfort zone but if you are joining in with hymns in unison - singing the tune, in other words - then you are stuck between things being either too high or too low. The same is likely to be true for a bass.
As for the pitch of hymns in A&M - this is irrelevant, BUT: the old A&M was higher than the NEH, the AMNS is lower than the NEH.
I wonder if voices have got lower? ...
Yes, they definitely have. Better nutrition since Victorian times has made people grow bigger, so with lower voices. Editors of hymnbooks have often recognised this and have set tunes in lower keys than they were pitched at in earlier years.
I've been singing bass (harmony) to hymns since I was 14 and know the bass lines better than the tunes. Most modern songwriters seem to have high tenor voices and set songs in keys to suit themselves (Graham Kendrick, I'm looking at you!) making them unsingable for me unless I keep dropping down an octave when the tune goes too high, and then jumping up again when it gets too low to sing two octaves lower than written. Not a great worshipping experience.
Angus
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
At my MC/PCW godson's christening (morning service, Capel Salem, Canton, Cardiff) ten years ago, there was a codwr canu doing the tonic sol fa stuff. But how many of the congregation were actually singing in harmony, I don't remember.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
On special occasions and at Cymanfa Ganu - Welsh hymn singing festivals - you'll still hear the four-part harmonies. But it's largely died out among your average congregation in Wales.
I once attended a Cymanfa Ganu at Blackley Baptist Chapel, atop the Pennines between Huddersfield and Halifax and a more striking Bronte-esque location for a chapel it would be difficult to find - despite the proximity of the M62.
It was truly bizarre. A Pennine Yorkshire chapel full of silver-haired Welsh people singing four-part harmonies with gusto. They came from all over the North of England, retired school-teachers, ministers ...
Some of those who sang most lustily were atheists and agnostics ...
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Belle Ringer
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# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I'm not sure many people want to sing in harmony. IME they'd rather sing the tunes they know.
It depends. I have a friend who gets annoyed whenever a hymn is chosen that has no alto line. Partly she has a low voice and partly she dislikes unison sound, craves harmony. But many directors (that I've known) don't allow spontaneous invention of harmony by the choir, so she's stuck with unison lines too high for her voice.
I used to invent harmonies (in the pews) but these days with no one else apparently doing it, it emotionally feels like I'm standing out/intruding on the experience of others. In contemporary songs those backup singers often aren't doing concurrent harmonies but responding phrases. If I do that - echo a song phrase during a part where the main singers are holding a note, it REALLY stands out! Which feels like I'm distracting attention to me.
One problem with choral harmonies is when they are written as Bach decreed - the "ideal" for the middle voices is they sit on one note - they are boring to sing. I switched to soprano to get variety in the music line. (They insisted I sing Alto because I can, so I dropped choir, freeing up a whole evening per week!)
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Galloping Granny
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# 13814
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Posted
No time just now to read the whole thread but have been meaning to check out our favourites.
We normally have one or two 'hymn book favourites' each week (though the current With One Voice often has a different tune from the Presbyterian one we grew up with) and some more recent, but we don't as a rule 'do' worship songs.
How new is contemporary? Does it inevitably mean 'of the current decade'? It seems to me that many of the hymn writers of the last half century (to be generous) have left a handful of favourites. Graham Kendrick leaves me cold most of the time but there are 2-3 of his that I love singing; several by Bernadette Farrell and Marty Haugen are often sung; in New Zealand Colin Gibson and Shirley Murray are regular favourites.
A minister who recently left the parish ministry to concentrate on writing and teaching worship songs visited us and taught a song he's written specially for us. Not all of us found it inspiring but after thrashing it for a few weeks we kind of got used to it. And now with visiting clergy of all stripes we occasionally get to sing their choice with as much gusto as ever.
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
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Belle Ringer
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# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
A Pennine Yorkshire chapel full of silver-haired Welsh people singing four-part harmonies with gusto. They came from all over the North of England, retired school-teachers, ministers ...
Double post, but -
Sacred Harp gatherings here are like that. I was stunned the first time I attended one - enthusiastic 4 part singing with more men than women! Usually a 4-part group has lots of women (most of them soprano), and is begging/arm twisting a small group of men, few or no tenors show up.
No lack of tenors in sacred harp gatherings!
I said to a neighbor "whats different?" She pointed out "the tenors have the melody."
Make their line fun, they'll come.
(I note contemporary music has no lack of male singers including lots of tenors.)
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GCabot
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# 18074
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Posted
Regarding the OP:
I find the major issues with introducing contemporary songs are:
1. Since musical notation is usually not provided, this compounds the difficulty of trying to acquaint oneself with the melody.
2. Unlike with traditional hymns, contemporary songs often do not follow standard recognizable patterns of rhythm, structure, etc.
At my traditional parish, the organist nearly always prefaces a hymn with a full run through of the melody, in addition to the musical notation provided.
An analogue in a contemporary worship setting would be to have the worship band do the first verse by itself, before the congregation joins in. If the song is particularly unusual, perhaps introduce it first solely by the worship band, and then include congregational participation at a later service.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
On special occasions and at Cymanfa Ganu - Welsh hymn singing festivals - you'll still hear the four-part harmonies. But it's largely died out among your average congregation in Wales.
I once attended a Cymanfa Ganu at Blackley Baptist Chapel, atop the Pennines between Huddersfield and Halifax and a more striking Bronte-esque location for a chapel it would be difficult to find - despite the proximity of the M62.
It was truly bizarre. A Pennine Yorkshire chapel full of silver-haired Welsh people singing four-part harmonies with gusto. They came from all over the North of England, retired school-teachers, ministers ...
Some of those who sang most lustily were atheists and agnostics ...
Sounds wonderful. Reclaiming Yr Hen Ogledd, no doubt ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Galloping Granny
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# 13814
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
That Build Your Kingdom Here had Irish folk rhythms and phrasing. Some of the stuff from Iona is lyrics to traditional folk songs, I've sung things to Wild Mountain Thyme, O Waly Waly, The Ash Grove and the Londonderry Air amongst others - with the original folk words running through my head.
I can't sing the Waly waly one without the original words in my head– it's my favourite folk song. On the whole the Wild Goose songs are singable and popular with our lot; I've even got over singing one in triple time that I'd danced as a strathspey.
After half a lifetime singing in church choirs I automatically sing the alto line (my natural soprano's gone a bit cracked) and there are usually a few others who do the same. My only wish is that if there's an unfamiliar tune there could be a few copies of the music for people like me who'll read anything but can't easily 'pick up' a tune. (Yes, Piglet, an alto is indeed a soprano who can read music).
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
My only wish is that if there's an unfamiliar tune there could be a few copies of the music for people like me who'll read anything but can't easily 'pick up' a tune.
Agreed, but my church is on it's third song leader in 10 months, and although the church paid for the license to reproduce the music for the congregation, the song leaders have all refused to allow sheet music for the congregation even if someone else does the work of preparing it.
Explanations given so far:
1. They don't read music so they don't see any need for written music.
2. They don't read music so anyone who does is using a crutch that inhibits learning the music.
3. Learning by ear is (supposedly) faster than learning from sheet music.
4. Looking at sheet music is incompatible with worship. (I've found statements on line objecting to projected words for the same reason - if you have to be paying intellectual attention by reading something you can't be worshiping.)
5. Creating a booklet of commonly used songs is restricting worship music choices.
Puzzles me why the band thinks they need to rehearse a new song several times to get familiar with it while the congregation is expected to pick it up cold, having never even heard it before. But
6. it doesn't matter what notes or rhythms people in the congregation sing because worship isn't about getting the music "right" but about singing from your heart and whatever notes come out are fine, so except for people at the mic no one needs to know the tune just to sing along in worship.
All three song leaders have occasionally chosen a song they said they couldn't teach the band in time so they'll do it solo - and yet they have it listed as a congregational song. I guess either all three think the specific song choice is more important than congregational participation, or they really do think the congregation should be singing - any notes, any rhythm - to an unfamiliar song being sung at the mic.
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by A.Pilgrim:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Jade
You have my sympathy: as an alto, the alto line for NEH hymns would be well within your comfort zone but if you are joining in with hymns in unison - singing the tune, in other words - then you are stuck between things being either too high or too low. The same is likely to be true for a bass.
As for the pitch of hymns in A&M - this is irrelevant, BUT: the old A&M was higher than the NEH, the AMNS is lower than the NEH.
I wonder if voices have got lower? ...
Yes, they definitely have. Better nutrition since Victorian times has made people grow bigger, so with lower voices. Editors of hymnbooks have often recognised this and have set tunes in lower keys than they were pitched at in earlier years.
That strikes me as mansplaining, Angus. There isn't any correlation between the size of a person's body and the voice range in which he sings. A larger body means more resonant space, but that doesn't control pitch; it's the thickness of the vocal cords that determines your vocal range.
Fewer people can read music today than could 100 years ago, though. And in popular music, breath support isn't as crucial an issue as it is in legit singing (why bother with projecting when you have a mike?), so people have become pretty lazy singers.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by A.Pilgrim:
Better nutrition since Victorian times has made people grow bigger, so with lower voices.
There isn't any correlation between the size of a person's body and the voice range in which he sings. A larger body means more resonant space, but that doesn't control pitch; it's the thickness of the vocal cords that determines your vocal range.
Fewer people can read music today than could 100 years ago, though. And in popular music, breath support isn't as crucial an issue as it is in legit singing (why bother with projecting when you have a mike?), so people have become pretty lazy singers.
I believed the "bigger bodies" explanation until I started looking at actual body sizes in the local community chorus. Short sopranos, equally short altos. Tall altos, taller sopranos. Men - not as clue from size what range will come out of their mouths.
I got tired of Alto and taught myself to sing soprano (even though I'm tall), moving my highest note from Eb to Bb with the help of a CD set of vocal exercises. (I only got to the second set of exercises, really should do the rest.)
Then I learned about vocal cord thickness, not length making the difference. You can train your vocal cord muscles.
Breath support makes a huge difference in range, as well as quality of sound and projection of sound. I grew up before mics (that is, mics existed but were so low quality no decent singer used one). At one church's contemporary service I stood in the back of the hall and created harmonies to the band (clergy and various people said they really liked it) - the band were amplified I was not, but my voice was easily heard without any strain.
They don't seem to teach projection anymore. When the power goes out a person who learned projection can continue the Bible reading or sermon or leading a song and be heard throughout the hall, without the mic. In an outdoor gathering the projected voice can be heard by the crowd instead of by only the few standing very near the speaker. Projecting is not yelling, it's diaphragm supported speaking or singing.
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
...which is why one of the most important parts of chorister training that I do is about breathing - support and control - and voice projection.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
Br, one main reason for not teaching operatic vocal technique, and that is close-mic methods. However it's great for the sound tech if there IS a trained voice going into that specific mic...
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
Br, one main reason for not teaching operatic vocal technique, and that is close-mic methods. However it's great for the sound tech if there IS a trained voice going into that specific mic...
Yes, mic singing is different, and I had to learn it.
It's not just singing - the local little theater has no mics. You project or you aren't heard. I don't go much anymore, a younger group are doing the plays and they just talk instead of projecting.
Also at outdoors events if there's no battery sound system the person making announcements can't be heard because they weren't taught to project, it diminishes the event for all but the nearest dozen people.
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
We still sing harmony in The Salvation Army
It's true though, the contemporary songs are not written in SATB but you will find that we put in harmonies when we can make it fit
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
I lead worship for the residents of a psychiatric hospital, in the chapel and on the wards. We have a full range of ages of people, and a complete cross-section of society. Religious or church-going people are a small minority. A large proportion of our patients have very poor literacy for a variety of reasons.
It's been interesting trying to work out what music to use. That handful of really well-known hymns has pretty much shrunk to All Things Bright and Beautiful. I chose Be Thou my Vision for a funeral and it was clear that not even the staff knew it.
Modern worship songs are little known. Give me Oil in my Lamp gets some people going - memories of the last religious school assemblies, perhaps.
The music I've found most promising is American Spirituals / very early gospel. Standing in the Need of Prayer, or I'm Gonna Sit at the Welcome Table, even Swing Low, Sweet Chariot. They are very easy to pick up. You can sing them without words or music as call and response songs. They seem to invite improvisation.
It feels like inventing congregational music again from the beginning, though.
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My crazy theology in novel form
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
I lead worship for the residents of a psychiatric hospital...
...That handful of really well-known hymns has pretty much shrunk to All Things Bright and Beautiful. ...Modern worship songs are little known. Give me Oil in my Lamp gets some people going - memories of the last religious school assemblies, perhaps.
I'm in Bible Belt USA, I feel sorry for the non-Christians in nursing homes, all the sing-alongs are Christian music, primarily Baptist ("power in the blood" etc).
I would suggest think about camp songs, Swing Low, Give me oil in my lamp, this little light of mine, when the saints go marching in, we are climbing jacobs ladder. They tend to be repetitive enough for people to catch on.
I privately lament about modern worship songs that changing the music every year or two means songs don't get deeply embedded and remembered when the mind is fading, and no songs span the multi-ages present in a nursing home gathering.
But I guess the focus has changed to latest style and valuing newness, one of the recent song leaders in my church was appalled at using any song as much as ten years old, "obsolete in music style."
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I privately lament about modern worship songs that changing the music every year or two means songs don't get deeply embedded and remembered when the mind is fading, and no songs span the multi-ages present in a nursing home gathering.
But - at least in my experience - a few songs do survive the process of quick turnover that you describe. I can think of several songs that have been used by my church for many years, and I expect these are among the songs I'll remember as and when my memory starts fading.
Mind you, that group of long-lasting songs will be different from church to church but I think this merely reflects the modern fragmentation of culture and entertainment; which is both a positive and a negative thing, I suppose!
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
Here in the UK, the Royal School of Church Music (RSCM) have brilliant people who seem to spend their time travelling around the UK enthusing groups of grumpy deanery synod members/ diocesan groupings / cluster of parishes into actually enjoying singing together.
At a recent session the RSCM rep was met with the usual bucket load of grumblings and gripings, complete with "he won't get Me singing, damn man". I could not resist turning round to watch the very same man on his feet, singing sweetly and smiling….
I guess one way to introduce new stuff is to ask for help from the professionals. RSCM could be your friend. And yes, they Do advise with contemporary/ modern stuff as well
[ 04. June 2014, 14:47: Message edited by: Ethne Alba ]
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
That handful of really well-known hymns has pretty much shrunk to All Things Bright and Beautiful. I chose Be Thou my Vision for a funeral and it was clear that not even the staff knew it.
Amazing Grace?
Praise my Soul?
What a friend we have in Jesus?
How Great thou art?
I guess any song/hymn that would be featured on Songs of Praise would be known by many; but you're right, the generation that sang hymns at school is now middle-aged and we are losing our heritage now that we have lost our religion from public life.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
That handful of really well-known hymns has pretty much shrunk to All Things Bright and Beautiful. I chose Be Thou my Vision for a funeral and it was clear that not even the staff knew it.
Amazing Grace?
Praise my Soul?
What a friend we have in Jesus?
How Great thou art?
I guess any song/hymn that would be featured on Songs of Praise would be known by many; but you're right, the generation that sang hymns at school is now middle-aged and we are losing our heritage now that we have lost our religion from public life.
Yes, but there's no obvious reason you should be allowed to make children sing your hymns in secular state schools, is there?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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seekingsister
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# 17707
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Posted
I know there's lots of criticism of contemporary worship music/Christian pop, but (and perhaps this is natural due to British demographics) there is little discussion or use of contemporary gospel music, much of which is written for and performed by choirs or artists backed by choirs.
Not all contemporary Christian music is Hillsong!
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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
I know there's lots of criticism of contemporary worship music/Christian pop, but (and perhaps this is natural due to British demographics) there is little discussion or use of contemporary gospel music, much of which is written for and performed by choirs or artists backed by choirs.
I'm not familiar with contemporary gospel music - is there a significant difference between it and the gospel music of the early 20th century?
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
I know there's lots of criticism of contemporary worship music/Christian pop, but (and perhaps this is natural due to British demographics) there is little discussion or use of contemporary gospel music, much of which is written for and performed by choirs or artists backed by choirs.
I'm not familiar with contemporary gospel music - is there a significant difference between it and the gospel music of the early 20th century?
Yes. Think Radio 2 on a Saturday afternoon.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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seekingsister
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# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
I'm not familiar with contemporary gospel music - is there a significant difference between it and the gospel music of the early 20th century?
Quite a lot of them sound like more like mainstream R&B and have more crossover appeal.
Two examples:
Mary Mary "Shackles (Praise You)" which I've heard in non-Christian nightclubs, despite the totally unambiguously religious lyrics
Mary Mary video
And Kirk Franklin's "Stomp" which was a huge US hit as well.
Kirk Franklin video
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
[tangent]I'm old enough to remember when R&B meant stuff like the Rolling Stones, Small Faces and The Who.
I don't understand how it came to refer to the rather anodyne musical filler that seems to get the moniker slapped on it today.[/tangent]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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seekingsister
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# 17707
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Posted
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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I'm old enough to remember when R&B meant stuff like the Rolling Stones, Small Faces and The Who.
Oh my my. You do know R&B was created by African-Americans in the early 20th century, and not by British bands in the 1960s? Perhaps you aren't old enough!
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
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Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I'm old enough to remember when R&B meant stuff like the Rolling Stones, Small Faces and The Who.
Oh my my. You do know R&B was created by African-Americans in the early 20th century, and not by British bands in the 1960s? Perhaps you aren't old enough!
Yes I do, thanks.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
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Originally posted by hatless:
That handful of really well-known hymns has pretty much shrunk to All Things Bright and Beautiful. I chose Be Thou my Vision for a funeral and it was clear that not even the staff knew it.
Amazing Grace?
Praise my Soul?
What a friend we have in Jesus?
How Great thou art?
I guess any song/hymn that would be featured on Songs of Praise would be known by many; but you're right, the generation that sang hymns at school is now middle-aged and we are losing our heritage now that we have lost our religion from public life.
Yes, but there's no obvious reason you should be allowed to make children sing your hymns in secular state schools, is there?
While there's a statutory requirement for collective worship, there is. Of course, there's another discussion to be had about that.
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Mudfrog
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# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
That handful of really well-known hymns has pretty much shrunk to All Things Bright and Beautiful. I chose Be Thou my Vision for a funeral and it was clear that not even the staff knew it.
Amazing Grace?
Praise my Soul?
What a friend we have in Jesus?
How Great thou art?
I guess any song/hymn that would be featured on Songs of Praise would be known by many; but you're right, the generation that sang hymns at school is now middle-aged and we are losing our heritage now that we have lost our religion from public life.
Yes, but there's no obvious reason you should be allowed to make children sing your hymns in secular state schools, is there?
I thought in this particular instance we were talking about a scenario in which worship was being lead in a psychiatric hospital.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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hatless
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# 3365
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Posted
There is still a school assembly memory, but only amongst older people, now. How Great Thou Art only became popular as a hymn after most people (in the UK) stopped having assemblies at school.
Amazing Grace is still very well known and loved. I wonder why. It's ages since any truly popular singer sang it. Judy Collins did, but that was a couple of generations ago. I think it may be down to the merit of the piece. Its pietistic, individualistic words somehow speak of far bigger universals - being found, joined, and given hope. And the tune is very folk song like, pentatonic, easy to learn, and good to sing.
There are other songs that everyone knows, but they don't all seem terribly suitable for worship. Ten Green Bottles, What Shall we do with the Drunken Sailor, Oh My Darling Clementine, Auld Lang Syne, For He's a Jolly Good Fellow, and of course, Happy Birthday to You.
[ 05. June 2014, 22:50: Message edited by: hatless ]
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My crazy theology in novel form
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I'm old enough to remember when R&B meant stuff like the Rolling Stones, Small Faces and The Who.
Oh my my. You do know R&B was created by African-Americans in the early 20th century, and not by British bands in the 1960s? Perhaps you aren't old enough!
Yes I do, thanks.
I think the (accurate) point seekingsister was making was that R&B is historically black music, not the preserve of the middle-aged white men who copied it. Mary Mary is closer to original R&B than The Who.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Jane R
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# 331
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Posted
Jade, I am old enough to remember when the Who and the Rolling Stones were Angry Young Men adopting that style of music to rebel against the Establishment. They weren't always middle-aged, you know.
If you could go back to the 1970s and tell people that Bob Geldof would one day be Sir Bob and a pillar of the establishment himself, they'd have laughed at you.
Getting back to the subject of church music, why this false dichotomy between 'hymns' and 'worship songs'? A song in praise of God (or a god) IS a hymn. A hymn is a worship song. ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
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Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I'm old enough to remember when R&B meant stuff like the Rolling Stones, Small Faces and The Who.
Oh my my. You do know R&B was created by African-Americans in the early 20th century, and not by British bands in the 1960s? Perhaps you aren't old enough!
Yes I do, thanks.
I think the (accurate) point seekingsister was making was that R&B is historically black music, not the preserve of the middle-aged white men who copied it. Mary Mary is closer to original R&B than The Who.
In what way? Musically or racially?
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Zappa
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# 8433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Jade, I am old enough to remember when the Who and the Rolling Stones were Angry Young Men adopting that style of music to rebel against the Establishment. They weren't always middle-aged, you know.
If you could go back to the 1970s and tell people that Bob Geldof would one day be Sir Bob and a pillar of the establishment himself, they'd have laughed at you.
They sure aren't middle aged now (and I've just paid $240 for a Bob Dylan ticket ...)
But, more seriously .. if a hymn/song is a prayer prayed twice, then surely it's worth having a iota of meaning to the lines, because twice zero is bugger all
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Jane R
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# 331
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Posted
Yes, nowadays they're OAPs... even Bob Geldof is nearly old enough to qualify for his bus pass!
Completely agree with you about meaningless lyrics.
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seekingsister
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# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
In what way? Musically or racially?
Both. There's a straight line from traditional R&B to Kirk Franklin and Mary Mary. The Rolling Stones etc. are on a separate branch that most people would call rock, not R&B. The first contemporary gospel hit was probably "Oh Happy Day" which sounded like radio R&B at that time, in the same way that Mary Mary etc. sound like radio R&B today.
The Stones do not fit into this very clearly anymore. I can think of groups that are closer - Culture Club is one that comes to mind - but not these rock bands that basically copied a bit of what they saw black Americans doing without any authentic experience with the original form.
[ 06. June 2014, 09:14: Message edited by: seekingsister ]
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