Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Eccles: Keeping church music contemporary
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Jane R: Jade, I am old enough to remember when the Who and the Rolling Stones were Angry Young Men adopting that style of music to rebel against the Establishment. They weren't always middle-aged, you know.
If you could go back to the 1970s and tell people that Bob Geldof would one day be Sir Bob and a pillar of the establishment himself, they'd have laughed at you.
Getting back to the subject of church music, why this false dichotomy between 'hymns' and 'worship songs'? A song in praise of God (or a god) IS a hymn. A hymn is a worship song.
But that's irrelevant to my point - they're still white men playing black music.
-------------------- Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
So what? ISTM (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that there's an implied criticism here. But fusion, interchange of ideas and styles; that's what makes things develop. And where did the 'black' music come from? No white influences there?
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Albertus: So what? ISTM (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that there's an implied criticism here. But fusion, interchange of ideas and styles; that's what makes things develop. And where did the 'black' music come from? No white influences there?
There's a cross-pollination for sure. "Black music" may be sociologically coded as black, but to my ears it has features of both African and European musics.
Rock critics like Dave Marsh have done an immense disservice to music by claiming that all rock is essentially "black music". Generally speaking, rock music is of mixed ethnicity.
-------------------- "The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
(FWIW, I can certainly, having listened to some, see the link to Mary Mary - but the irony here is I think you'd find her style more likely to be classified as Gospel than R&B. She certainly sounds nothing like the compilation in my last YouTube link)
-------------------- Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
posted by Jade Constable quote: ...white men playing black music.
What on earth is this all about?
Using this spurious 'logic' all light opera should only be written in and performed by Italians, paraphrased psalms should be confined to the heirs of Calvin and Zwingli, etc.
In any case, music is colour-blind - or would you argue that rather than have Willard White (say) in Otello you'd prefer an Italian bass to 'black-up'?
-------------------- Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Um, hate to nit-pick, especially as I agree with you, but I think Otello is actually a tenor role. Sorry.
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider: (FWIW, I can certainly, having listened to some, see the link to Mary Mary - but the irony here is I think you'd find her style more likely to be classified as Gospel than R&B. She certainly sounds nothing like the compilation in my last YouTube link)
Gospel is one of the roots of R&B. CF Whirling Willie etc. A lot of Motown artists were Gospel-trained.
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by L'organist: posted by Jade Constable quote: ...white men playing black music.
What on earth is this all about?
Using this spurious 'logic' all light opera should only be written in and performed by Italians, paraphrased psalms should be confined to the heirs of Calvin and Zwingli, etc.
In any case, music is colour-blind - or would you argue that rather than have Willard White (say) in Otello you'd prefer an Italian bass to 'black-up'?
Actually that's not my point at all. My point is that white musicians frequently get praise for musical styles taken from black musicians who are ignored, or don't get nearly as much recognition. Music doesn't exist in a vacuum and is affected by race issues just like anything else.
-------------------- Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Albertus: So what? ISTM (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that there's an implied criticism here. But fusion, interchange of ideas and styles; that's what makes things develop. And where did the 'black' music come from? No white influences there?
There's no criticism of white people enjoying and playing black music - there is criticism of a system where white people playing black music get more praise and recognition than the black musicians who initially performed the music. Music gets affected by racism and racial privilege like anything else, including church music.
-------------------- Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by L'organist: posted by Jade Constable quote: ...white men playing black music.
What on earth is this all about?
Using this spurious 'logic' all light opera should only be written in and performed by Italians, paraphrased psalms should be confined to the heirs of Calvin and Zwingli, etc.
In any case, music is colour-blind - or would you argue that rather than have Willard White (say) in Otello you'd prefer an Italian bass to 'black-up'?
I can say precisely what Jade Constable was on about, but maybe it had something to do with this ridiculous experience I had in La Jolla, California.
A choir of rich white people—salted with a few non-whites—on some Sunday commemorating Martin Luther King, Jr., singing Lift Every Voice and Sing. It may be my uncharitable memory recalling, but I'm pretty sure this was accompanied on their 1975 Austin pipe organ.
White people. Rich white people. Rich white people in 1%-rich La Jolla. Trying to sing Lift Every Voice and Sing. On an organ.
Not just any Negro gospel song neatly pinched from LEVAS, to season our multicultural stew, but the one with these lyrics: quote: Stony the road we trod, bitter the chastening rod, Felt in the days when hope unborn had died; … We have come over a way that with tears has been watered, We have come, treading our path through the blood of the slaughtered;
Now, I'll merit that very few of us are meet to sing the songs of the martyred. But for folk such as these to sing "treading our path through the blood of the slaughtered" just fifty years after the lynching of 14-year old Emmett Till, ought to make us positively squirm with discomfort.
Is there a whiff of the ad hominem about this post? You bet. That would be its point.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Alex Cockell: quote: Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider: (FWIW, I can certainly, having listened to some, see the link to Mary Mary - but the irony here is I think you'd find her style more likely to be classified as Gospel than R&B. She certainly sounds nothing like the compilation in my last YouTube link)
Gospel is one of the roots of R&B. CF Whirling Willie etc. A lot of Motown artists were Gospel-trained.
Yeah, I know. My point is that what is called R&B TODAY, and for about the last 20 years, does not sound anything like the Gospel rooted Rhythm & Blues of earlier times.
Hence, whilst I'd aver that Mary Mary is more like R&B of old than Rihanna, it's the latter who's more representative of what gets called R&B now rather than the former.
-------------------- Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Jade Constable: quote: Originally posted by L'organist: posted by Jade Constable quote: ...white men playing black music.
What on earth is this all about?
Using this spurious 'logic' all light opera should only be written in and performed by Italians, paraphrased psalms should be confined to the heirs of Calvin and Zwingli, etc.
In any case, music is colour-blind - or would you argue that rather than have Willard White (say) in Otello you'd prefer an Italian bass to 'black-up'?
Actually that's not my point at all. My point is that white musicians frequently get praise for musical styles taken from black musicians who are ignored, or don't get nearly as much recognition. Music doesn't exist in a vacuum and is affected by race issues just like anything else.
Do they? Not sure about that. B B King was big in his time, just as Deep Purple were in theirs.
-------------------- Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider: Yeah, I know. My point is that what is called R&B TODAY, and for about the last 20 years, does not sound anything like the Gospel rooted Rhythm & Blues of earlier times
Or in other words, the music in (whenever the speaker was 15-30 years old) is better than the music now.
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
I'm not trying to insult your musical tastes, Karl. But there is no universe in which British rock bands are more authentically R&B than contemporary African-American gospel artists are.
If you'd said "Mary Mary who? What's wrong with Aretha Franklin?" then you'd have a point.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by seekingsister: I'm not trying to insult your musical tastes, Karl. But there is no universe in which British rock bands are more authentically R&B than contemporary African-American gospel artists are.
If you'd said "Mary Mary who? What's wrong with Aretha Franklin?" then you'd have a point.
Gospel artists, yes, and I've said I can see the R&B/Gospel roots of Mary Mary, but my point is that the label R&B is generally given to the sort of poppy stuff I linked to on YouTube earlier, which seems to have no musical connection at all with earlier R&B, or contemporary gospel.
-------------------- Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Jade: quote: My point is that white musicians frequently get praise for musical styles taken from black musicians who are ignored, or don't get nearly as much recognition.
And Vaughan Williams got praised for taking perfectly respectable folk-tunes and "arranging" them, and before him Cecil Sharp was praised for collecting and popularising folk songs and music that were dying out from lack of interest (because people tend to take more notice of middle-class academics than random yokels in the pub), and women musicians and composers don't get as much praise and recognition as men. The way the music industry works is not likely to be any better than the rest of society, is it?
We're all standing on the shoulders of giants. Creative people all over the world and throughout history have been influenced by others. It's only fairly recently (in historical terms) that anyone would have thought there was a problem about taking a style of music you liked from another culture (or sub-culture) as inspiration for your own work.
But it's an interesting argument - do you strive for "authenticity" or "hybridity"? And in an increasingly globalized culture, what's authentic anyway?
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Jade Constable: quote: Originally posted by Albertus: So what? ISTM (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that there's an implied criticism here. But fusion, interchange of ideas and styles; that's what makes things develop. And where did the 'black' music come from? No white influences there?
There's no criticism of white people enjoying and playing black music - there is criticism of a system where white people playing black music get more praise and recognition than the black musicians who initially performed the music. Music gets affected by racism and racial privilege like anything else, including church music.
Yeah, I think you'll find you're arguing that point exactly 60 years too late - it was current when Elvis became popular.
-------------------- "The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid." G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte: ]I can say precisely what Jade Constable was on about, but maybe it had something to do with this ridiculous experience I had in La Jolla, California.
A choir of rich white people—salted with a few non-whites—on some Sunday commemorating Martin Luther King, Jr., singing Lift Every Voice and Sing. It may be my uncharitable memory recalling, but I'm pretty sure this was accompanied on their 1975 Austin pipe organ.
(snip)
I get what you're talking about, TSA. The social aspect of this particular appropriation is certainly embarrassing; around these parts it seems to be very right-on for (mostly-white) parishes to sport copies of LEVAS in the pews. And invariably, when the songs come up in the service, there is enthusiastic clapping.
On the 1 and the 3.
-------------------- "The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Salicional
Shipmate
# 16461
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Posted
The PCUSA's new hymnal, which just came out last year, includes both 'Lift Every Voice' and another civil-rights-era favorite, 'We Shall Overcome'. I imagine there are some PCUSA congregations where the latter, in particular, could be sung meaningfully.
But the one I serve consists almost entirely of white folks and is highly skewed to the upper end of the income bracket. If someone ever suggested we sing it, I'd find it hard to resist asking "What exactly do you people have to overcome?"
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Answer, maybe: 'our crushing embarrassment and sense of guilt at being well-heeled white folks'.But if it is that, they're never going to overcome it.
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Twangist
Shipmate
# 16208
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider: quote: Originally posted by Jade Constable: quote: Originally posted by L'organist: posted by Jade Constable quote: ...white men playing black music.
What on earth is this all about?
Using this spurious 'logic' all light opera should only be written in and performed by Italians, paraphrased psalms should be confined to the heirs of Calvin and Zwingli, etc.
In any case, music is colour-blind - or would you argue that rather than have Willard White (say) in Otello you'd prefer an Italian bass to 'black-up'?
Actually that's not my point at all. My point is that white musicians frequently get praise for musical styles taken from black musicians who are ignored, or don't get nearly as much recognition. Music doesn't exist in a vacuum and is affected by race issues just like anything else.
Do they? Not sure about that. B B King was big in his time, just as Deep Purple were in theirs.
Judging by the pictures BB King kept getting bigger and bigger..... But seriously by the late 60's he needed the white college (rock) audience to survive. This came about because his (white (generally English)) imitators gave his credit and patronage. White people playing black music at whatever remove have always shifted more units from the Beastie Boys to Emenem from Benny Goodman to Dave Brubeck. R&B is a term with several meanings including 50's black music, both British blue booms (early and late 60's), and contemporary black pop music.
-------------------- JJ SDG blog
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Edgeman
Shipmate
# 12867
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Salicional: The PCUSA's new hymnal, which just came out last year, includes both 'Lift Every Voice' and another civil-rights-era favorite, 'We Shall Overcome'. I imagine there are some PCUSA congregations where the latter, in particular, could be sung meaningfully.
But the one I serve consists almost entirely of white folks and is highly skewed to the upper end of the income bracket. If someone ever suggested we sing it, I'd find it hard to resist asking "What exactly do you people have to overcome?"
This is where phrases like "Cultural appropriation" have meaning. Lift every Voice and Sing is considered the black national anthem in the US and is intimately tied with the the struggle for equality, upper class whites singing it seems incredibly strange and out of place
-------------------- http://sacristyxrat.tumblr.com/
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Edgeman: This is where phrases like "Cultural appropriation" have meaning. Lift every Voice and Sing is considered the black national anthem in the US and is intimately tied with the the struggle for equality, upper class whites singing it seems incredibly strange and out of place
Though perhaps there's an element of "neither Greek nor Jew" operating there, as rich whites might be singing in the joy of liberation from the oppression of sin rather than economic (sin) oppression
-------------------- shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Edgeman: quote: Originally posted by Salicional: The PCUSA's new hymnal, which just came out last year, includes both 'Lift Every Voice' and another civil-rights-era favorite, 'We Shall Overcome'.
This is where phrases like "Cultural appropriation" have meaning. Lift every Voice and Sing is considered the black national anthem in the US and is intimately tied with the the struggle for equality, upper class whites singing it seems incredibly strange and out of place
I was in a mostly black chorus singing at a Martin Luther King event, I felt uncomfortable singing that song, it's a stirring deeply moving song, but I felt an intruder in singing it, the words are true of a certain people and their history and (to be honest) ongoing struggle, not of me.
To say wording like "Stony the road we trod, bitter the chast'ning rod...We have come, treading our path through the blood of the slaughtered... God of our weary years, God of our silent tears..." is about everybody's occasional spiritual down times or personal battles with sin would utterly trivialize the painful American Black history and experience the song describes.
We shall overcome was the anthem of a mixed race movement to end segregation, so it doesn't have that same feeling of belonging to one specific group. Does feel strange, though (to me), to sing it in a 100% white church in the 2000s, way out of context.
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Belle Ringer: To say wording like "Stony the road we trod, bitter the chast'ning rod...We have come, treading our path through the blood of the slaughtered... God of our weary years, God of our silent tears..." is about everybody's occasional spiritual down times or personal battles with sin would utterly trivialize the painful American Black history and experience the song describes.
I agree completely. But I think context matters.
For a white or predominately white-culture congregation to sing "Lift Every Voice," even with the best intentions of identifying with others, is problematic, I think. Despite a suggestion to do so, our pastor made a conscious decision not to sing it in worship during MLK weekend for that reason. (We used "The Right Hand of God" instead.)
But I have been in settings such as MLK services where the congregation was mostly African American, and where the rest of us were invited to sing along. I think that's quite different. And in those contexts, I have found the verse you describe to be quite challenging—have I ever wielded the "chastening rod," however unintentionally?
Clearly, the hymn is not in the hymnal just so white congregations will sing it. (It was in the former Presbyterian hymnal as well.) i It's there to include the non-white experience in a predominately white denomination.
-------------------- The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Does it not depend a little on other people's histories too ? There are many people of many backgrounds who have experienced persecution, suffering and hardship.
What about all the white refugee immigrants who arrived in the states, the Irish diaspora etc.
-------------------- All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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GCabot
Shipmate
# 18074
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Nick Tamen: For a white or predominately white-culture congregation to sing "Lift Every Voice," even with the best intentions of identifying with others, is problematic, I think.
I do not see why this should be problematic. Songs written within a specific historical context are often repurposed for contemporary use. For example, we do not restrict the singing of the Star-Spangled Banner or the Battle Hymn of the Republic merely because they were written in the context of the War of 1812 and the Civil War, respectively.
-------------------- The child that is born unto us is more than a prophet; for this is he of whom the Savior saith: "Among them that are born of woman, there hath not risen one greater than John the Baptist."
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Doublethink: Does it not depend a little on other people's histories too ? There are many people of many backgrounds who have experienced persecution, suffering and hardship.
What about all the white refugee immigrants who arrived in the states, the Irish diaspora etc.
I presume that many of their descendants have done well for themselves and would only be singing such songs out of nostalgia - whereas African Americans, even wealthy ones, will realise that their racial group is still disproportionately disadvantaged in the USA. The meaning and symbolism would be rather different for them.
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by GCabot: quote: Originally posted by Nick Tamen: For a white or predominately white-culture congregation to sing "Lift Every Voice," even with the best intentions of identifying with others, is problematic, I think.
I do not see why this should be problematic. Songs written within a specific historical context are often repurposed for contemporary use. For example, we do not restrict the singing of the Star-Spangled Banner or the Battle Hymn of the Republic merely because they were written in the context of the War of 1812 and the Civil War, respectively.
Quite a different thing, I think. As others have pointed out, the "we" in "Lift Every Voice" speaks of specific experiences not shared by (most) white people. The two you mention have historical contexts, but those contexts and the words themselves easily permit the more general use they enjoy today. But for upper middle class whites to sing about how "we" have suffered seems a bit tone deaf to me. It's not "our" story.
-------------------- The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Samll tangent (not trying to make any kind of point, just curious)- would people consider it problematic for Mr Obama to be singing these Civil Rights hymns? Because AIUI his American ancestry is white: no doubt Kenyans such as his father might have their own struggles to commemorate, but they are not the struggles that, say, Mrs Obama's family had.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I'm not American, but I understand that ordinary African Americans have been mostly supportive of Mr Obama. This is because his political awareness as a young man was nurtured very much by his work among African Americans in Chicago.
Also, they know that after he left the protective care of his white mother's family and before he became famous, most people on seeing him would automatically have treated him like any other African American. Having a long-gone Kenyan father wouldn't have made any difference to that. Then, of course, he married Michelle, which is further proof that he wanted to be part of the African American family.
Some African American voices on the left (e.g. Cornel West) have been critical of Obama's appropriation of aspects of the African American prophetic voice. This isn't because Obama had a Kenyan father, but because it looks a bit like cynical PR, especially since they don't see Obama standing up for struggling African Americans or for poor Americans in general as much as they would like.
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GCabot
Shipmate
# 18074
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Nick Tamen: quote: Originally posted by GCabot: quote: Originally posted by Nick Tamen: For a white or predominately white-culture congregation to sing "Lift Every Voice," even with the best intentions of identifying with others, is problematic, I think.
I do not see why this should be problematic. Songs written within a specific historical context are often repurposed for contemporary use. For example, we do not restrict the singing of the Star-Spangled Banner or the Battle Hymn of the Republic merely because they were written in the context of the War of 1812 and the Civil War, respectively.
Quite a different thing, I think. As others have pointed out, the "we" in "Lift Every Voice" speaks of specific experiences not shared by (most) white people. The two you mention have historical contexts, but those contexts and the words themselves easily permit the more general use they enjoy today. But for upper middle class whites to sing about how "we" have suffered seems a bit tone deaf to me. It's not "our" story.
I think the problem is that you are assuming that the congregation largely composed of upper-middle class Whites are self-identifying as such in the context of such a song, rather than as a community of Christians. Since it is most assuredly the latter, I remain unconvinced that this would be so inappropriate.
Perhaps it may come across as tone deaf to an outside observer who has no understanding of the context with which such a song is sung by such a congregation, but is this enough of a reason to silence it when it may further the worship of God? Why should the non-Black portions of the Church by forbidden access to the richness of Black compositions merely for the sake of political correctness? That merely encourages the ghettoization of Black hymns to Black congregations, undermining the effort to reconcile Black and White churches into One Church, which this was undoubtedly meant to promote.
-------------------- The child that is born unto us is more than a prophet; for this is he of whom the Savior saith: "Among them that are born of woman, there hath not risen one greater than John the Baptist."
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by GCabot: I think the problem is that you are assuming that the congregation largely composed of upper-middle class Whites are self-identifying as such in the context of such a song, rather than as a community of Christians. Since it is most assuredly the latter, I remain unconvinced that this would be so inappropriate.
I imagine I am assuming that the congregation is predominantly middle- to upper-middle-class white. That still describes the typical PC(USA) congregation, I'm afraid. (The PC(USA) is both my frame of reference and the denomination whose hymnal was mentioned as containing the hymn.)
But based on my experience, I cannot say that it is most assuredly the case that worshipers are identifying as fellow Christians rather than as middle- to upper-middle-class whites. I don't think it's that simple. I think people tend to identify as both.
quote: Perhaps it may come across as tone deaf to an outside observer who has no understanding of the context with which such a song is sung by such a congregation, but is this enough of a reason to silence it when it may further the worship of God? Why should the non-Black portions of the Church by forbidden access to the richness of Black compositions merely for the sake of political correctness? That merely encourages the ghettoization of Black hymns to Black congregations, undermining the effort to reconcile Black and White churches into One Church, which this was undoubtedly meant to promote.
I speak only from my own experience, and that experience has been in the South, where these issues can still lurk close to the surface. There is no question that we've come a long way, but there is also no question that we have further to go and that there is a lot of memory.
In my experience, I don't think anyone feels "forbidden" from singing it at all, I think many feel uncomfortable singing it, at least in a group that is mainly white. Singing it with fellow Christians who are African American—absolutely! But I guess I'd say in my experience, white people tend to feel like it's disrespectful to sing it on our own, for want of a better way of putting it.
-------------------- The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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GCabot
Shipmate
# 18074
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Nick Tamen: quote: Originally posted by GCabot: I think the problem is that you are assuming that the congregation largely composed of upper-middle class Whites are self-identifying as such in the context of such a song, rather than as a community of Christians. Since it is most assuredly the latter, I remain unconvinced that this would be so inappropriate.
I imagine I am assuming that the congregation is predominantly middle- to upper-middle-class white. That still describes the typical PC(USA) congregation, I'm afraid. (The PC(USA) is both my frame of reference and the denomination whose hymnal was mentioned as containing the hymn.)
But based on my experience, I cannot say that it is most assuredly the case that worshipers are identifying as fellow Christians rather than as middle- to upper-middle-class whites. I don't think it's that simple. I think people tend to identify as both.
I did not mean to imply that if you asked such persons about their race and socio-economic strata, they would not identify as upper-middle class Whites. Rather, I meant within the specific context of the Church. In my experience, a predominately White congregation thinks of itself merely as a congregation of Christians, not a congregation of upper-middle class White Christians. Thus, when they sing of themselves as a group in the context of the song, they would be singing within the common identity of the Christian faith. If, instead, they were somehow singing with a conscious group identity of upper-middle class Whites, then of course it would be inappropriate. I find it difficult to believe that this would be the case, however.
quote: Originally posted by Nick Tamen: quote: Originally posted by GCabot: Perhaps it may come across as tone deaf to an outside observer who has no understanding of the context with which such a song is sung by such a congregation, but is this enough of a reason to silence it when it may further the worship of God? Why should the non-Black portions of the Church by forbidden access to the richness of Black compositions merely for the sake of political correctness? That merely encourages the ghettoization of Black hymns to Black congregations, undermining the effort to reconcile Black and White churches into One Church, which this was undoubtedly meant to promote.
I speak only from my own experience, and that experience has been in the South, where these issues can still lurk close to the surface. There is no question that we've come a long way, but there is also no question that we have further to go and that there is a lot of memory.
In my experience, I don't think anyone feels "forbidden" from singing it at all, I think many feel uncomfortable singing it, at least in a group that is mainly white. Singing it with fellow Christians who are African American—absolutely! But I guess I'd say in my experience, white people tend to feel like it's disrespectful to sing it on our own, for want of a better way of putting it.
Ah, I totally understand why individuals may have personal reluctance for the reasons you have described. I was merely arguing against the notion of the Church specifically proscribing others from singing these songs. Perhaps I misunderstood your meaning when you said that this would be "problematic." If so, I apologize.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by GCabot: In my experience, a predominately White congregation thinks of itself merely as a congregation of Christians, not a congregation of upper-middle class White Christians.
This is perhaps an example of what's been called 'white privilege': the ability to see oneself as racially - and sociologically - netural. But colour and class blindness probably isn't a great advantage in a country where racial and sociological divides really do exist. Once those issues are resolved then everyone can claim that race and class don't matter.
BTW, have prominent African Americans ever actually complained about white congregations singing spirituals and gospel music, or is this something that's just assumed? I know that some black British theologians and historians of black music have criticised the ways in which some of the white writers of worship music have made use of black musical idioms without acknowledging the fact, but this is a somewhat different issue.
In the UK and on the Continent gospel music is not only popular beyond black churches, it's also popular beyond churches in general. Individuals will have their preferences as to who sings these songs 'the best', but there's not much of a debate about who has the right to sing them.
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GCabot
Shipmate
# 18074
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by SvitlanaV2: quote: Originally posted by GCabot: In my experience, a predominately White congregation thinks of itself merely as a congregation of Christians, not a congregation of upper-middle class White Christians.
This is perhaps an example of what's been called 'white privilege': the ability to see oneself as racially - and sociologically - netural. But colour and class blindness probably isn't a great advantage in a country where racial and sociological divides really do exist. Once those issues are resolved then everyone can claim that race and class don't matter.
BTW, have prominent African Americans ever actually complained about white congregations singing spirituals and gospel music, or is this something that's just assumed? I know that some black British theologians and historians of black music have criticised the ways in which some of the white writers of worship music have made use of black musical idioms without acknowledging the fact, but this is a somewhat different issue.
In the UK and on the Continent gospel music is not only popular beyond black churches, it's also popular beyond churches in general. Individuals will have their preferences as to who sings these songs 'the best', but there's not much of a debate about who has the right to sing them.
I would say that blindness to race and class is very relevant, however, in determining the intent of a congregation is this particular context.
As to whether African-Americans have complained, I have no idea. This tangent was prompted by discussion above that I construed as attempting to proactively admonish anyone from singing the beforementioned songs that was non-Black. That may have been a misunderstanding, however.
-------------------- The child that is born unto us is more than a prophet; for this is he of whom the Savior saith: "Among them that are born of woman, there hath not risen one greater than John the Baptist."
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by GCabot: Ah, I totally understand why individuals may have personal reluctance for the reasons you have described. I was merely arguing against the notion of the Church specifically proscribing others from singing these songs. Perhaps I misunderstood your meaning when you said that this would be "problematic." If so, I apologize.
No problem. I think we're on the same page. Perhaps I could have chosen a better word than "problematic."
quote: Originally posted by SvitlanaV2: BTW, have prominent African Americans ever actually complained about white congregations singing spirituals and gospel music, or is this something that's just assumed?
Not as far as I know, nor have I ever observed it being assumed. In my experience, white congregations sing African American spirituals and gospel songs all the time—with the exceptions of one or two hymns, like "Lift Every Voice," that carry particular significance.
-------------------- The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Song choice, whether in terms of the compilation of denominational hymnbooks or in terms of additional repertoire, is an interesting subject. Like all other forms of cultural production and consumption there must be a whole range of issues going on there. I wonder if anyone has ever subjected a whole hymnbook, or simply a range of popular hymns or worship songs, to any kind of critical theoretical analysis? I'm sure it would be very fruitful. [ 23. June 2014, 01:05: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Right. The simple answer is YES, including myself as part of my thesis (the analysis of hymns used for worship week by week within the congregations I was studying, presented at the Post Graduate SST conference a few years back). However, I am not a real player in this field. The other supervisee who is often paired with me is!
However for more direct then there is J R Watsons A Annotated Anthology of Hymns and The English Hymn: A Critical and Historical Study.
There is also Abide with Me by Ian Bradley and I also turned up this book also on Victorian Hymnody (scroll down for a list of other books that may be on topic). Actually Hymn Quest gives a long listing of resources on origins of hymns including a thesis on modern hymns
For a theological-critical look at hymns the Brian Wren's Hymns for Today.
There is more, lots more including stuff on Church Music. One problem is the journals and books tend to be slow at getting online.
Jengie
-------------------- "To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by SvitlanaV2: I wonder if anyone has ever subjected a whole hymnbook, or simply a range of popular hymns or worship songs, to any kind of critical theoretical analysis? I'm sure it would be very fruitful.
I sort of did this recently, for an assignment on my theology course. Inspired by this recent paper (summary only, sorry), I wrote an analysis of the charismatic evangelical 'worship set' structure.
My paper is here - it is quite long, and this is dangerously close to blatant self-promotion, I realise! Hope it's okay (both in terms of the Ship rules and general modesty!) as I think it's relevant to the discussion...
-------------------- My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Thank you both very much for these suggestions!
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