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Source: (consider it) Thread: Eccles: On the Naming of Churches
Mudfrog
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The Methodist Church that The Salvation Army in Newcastle worships in is called Brunswick, named after and in support of Caroline of Brunswick.

Many Salvation Army Corps - for we are a corps of soldiers - are called a Citadel. Some are named after the area they are in or the Road. Some are called Congress Halls.

The Corps of which I am the commanding officer is called Newcastle City Temple.

In Perth in Australia they call themselves Perth Fortress. In Pasadena in the US they are Pasadena Tabernacle.

Sadly there is a trend to start calling themselves 'Community Churches'.
I don't like that.

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Gamaliel
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Interesting - the term 'community church' tends to be associated with 'non-denominational' charismatic evangelicals or Pentecostals who have decided that the term 'Pentecostal' carries unfortunate baggage and connotations for some people.

I've spoken to a number of Pentecostal ministers who don't use the term 'externally' as it were but only among their own flock. Not because they have a problem with the term itself, necessarily, but because they feel it can be a bit of a turn-off.

I can understand their reasoning, but an unfortunate side-effect, perhaps, is it can then sometimes look as if they are being under-hand. The liberal vicar here has been along to a few gatherings in recent years where he has complained afterwards that it should have been flagged up in advance as something the Pentecostals were doing. He hadn't known, until part way through, that these were Pentecostal sponsored or organised events.

He felt this was disingenuous. Incidentally, despite the difference in theology and approach he gets on very well with our local Penties and has a lot of respect for them.

It just shows how the whole naming thing is fraught with difficulty ...

[Eek!]

Meanwhile - as an aside - I happened to be in Southend with work recently, Mudfrog and stopped off at that Salvation Army 'settlement' at Hadleigh. Very impressive.

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Mudfrog
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The salvation Army in the UK has now decided on a regimented (pun intended) corporate image. We must have the red shield logo on the from of the building which has The salvation Army inscribed within it. Next to the logo must be the words, using our example:

The Salvation Army
Church and Community Centre

On new buildings and on buildings after refurbishment, however old, there can only be those words - we are not allowed to put the name of the location or the name of the corps.
Looking at a photo of a building alone therefore you would not know where in the world it is.

I disagree with this ruling.
I guess that now the present communications secretary moves on into retirement, that stupid ruling will disappear.

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Sadly there is a trend to start calling themselves 'Community Churches'.
I don't like that.

There's a church (supposedly C of E) here that calls itself a 'family centre'.

I wonder what single people make of that.

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SvitlanaV2
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Well, at least they know in advance what the appeal of that church is. No false pretences there. These little hints can be helpful.
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leo
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It'd in an area full of 'broken' and reconstituted families.

Although it functions well in the week as a community centre, the Sunday congregation is drawn from a wide ares outside the parish but few from within it.

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SvitlanaV2
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An excellent opportunity for another neighbourhood church to take up the slack, then! In reality, though, most churches are unprepared to engage with broken and reconstituted families.

Maybe we need churches with names like: 'The Redeemed Broken Family Church Centre' or 'The Broken and Healed Family Church of God'!

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
An excellent opportunity for another neighbourhood church to take up the slack, then! In reality, though, most churches are unprepared to engage with broken and reconstituted families.

Maybe we need churches with names like: 'The Redeemed Broken Family Church Centre' or 'The Broken and Healed Family Church of God'!

Amen to that.

Though in this part of town the other churches are even more fundamentalist.

And with barbed wire around their buildings.

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SvitlanaV2
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To be fair, there were probably more mainstream churches in the area long ago, but they couldn't attract and keep enough people to support themselves. Now they've closed, and the more 'fundamentalist' ones remain. They probably want to avoid the same fate, so they won't relax their rules, antagonise their current members or wear themselves out working on the stony ground that surrounds them.

It'll require a church plant that's 100% committed to the local community, while being funded by a wealthy church somewhere else. I propose: 'The So-and-So'sville Church of the Lost and Found'.

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leo
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Not sure whether that was addressed to my post, but there were 4 churches in the area, mostly anglo catholic.

One has not only survived but flourished as a home for the Par Thoma church as well as C of E. They recognize each others' orders.

BUT the insensitive evo. which down the hill with dwindling numbers and influence will probably, with the cuts, take over, make a mess of it and close it and them.

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SvitlanaV2
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Yes, it was addressed to your post.

Why would the 'dwindling' church take over? Isn't it usually the more successful church that takes over from the less successful?

At the very least, the congregation and its work might move to a new site rather than being disbanded. Your 'con-evos' might pause for thought if they're told that closing a church tends to reduce the overall number of worshippers in an area, which is what studies show. It doesn't help them if this happens.

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Olaf
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quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
Numbered churches: "First Whatever" is pretty standard for mainline American Protestant denominations. "Second Whatever" is a little less so; in my experience AMPD's tend to go for neighborhood designations for names. However, DC has a "Sixth Presbyterian."

I'll see your DC's Sixth Presbyterian and raise you a Baltimore Seventh Baptist, North Avenue.

In fact, there is in Boston a Twelfth Baptist, Warren Street.

On Wacker Drive in Chicago can be found the Seventeenth Church of Christ, Scientist, one of Chicago's most captivating modern church exteriors, in my opinion. The interior can be seen in the choosing ceremony on the recent movie Divergent.
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The Silent Acolyte

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Seventeenth, eh?

I know when to fold.

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
It'd in an area full of 'broken' and reconstituted families.

Although it functions well in the week as a community centre, the Sunday congregation is drawn from a wide ares outside the parish but few from within it.

Do people go to it? Then praise God instead of carping.
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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
It'd in an area full of 'broken' and reconstituted families.

Although it functions well in the week as a community centre, the Sunday congregation is drawn from a wide ares outside the parish but few from within it.

Do people go to it? Then praise God instead of carping.
Average Sunday attendance = 53

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Urfshyne
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Mudfrog,

What is wrong with
The Salvation Army
Church and Community Centre?

I have met too many people, including a surprising number in other churches, that thought that the SA was a charity and knew nothing about it being a place of worship.

Surely it is in the interests of any Christian organisation to make it obvious, from the outside, what takes place in those premises.

I know that I have come across members of that organisation who did not like to use the term "church" as they considered themselves part of an army, but I have not encountered this in more recent times.

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churchgeek

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On 6 Mile in Detroit, you find "The City of Hope Church (Vision 2000 and Beyond Inc.)". I guess their name is technically the bit before the parentheses, but the whole thing is painted on the building's exterior, without parentheses.

There are quite a few interesting church names in Detroit, actually. Once I'm back in town, I can start collecting them. Whenever I would drive by the Prayer Temple of Love Church I'd get the Sisters of Mercy song, Temple of Love in my head.

There's also Second Ebenezer Baptist Church. I don't think there's a First Ebenezer, but there might have been at one time.

One re-naming in Detroit was a Catholic church that is now, sadly, a mere ruin (literally): Martyrs of Uganda Catholic Church, which used to be St. Agnes' Church. If you google Martyrs of Uganda, Detroit, you'll see many sad but stunning images of its current state of abandonment. But about a decade ago, the faithful few (about a dozen, I think) would gather in a portion of the nave sectioned off with tarps to protect them from the elements (no heat in winter) and ceiling leaks.

My church, the Cathedral Church of St. Paul, was originally a parish church, St. Paul's. It merged with a Grace Church at some point long ago, but no one felt the need to keep Grace in the name. One of the side chapels is called Grace Chapel, and features the former Grace Church's altar and rose window. There's another Grace Church elsewhere in Detroit now, so I guess the name got recycled.

Another merger in Detroit resulted in what is now affectionately called "Matty Joe's," St. Matthew's and St. Joseph's Church. It's the diocese's obligatory super-high-church parish (where they use so much smoke you can't make out what the priest is doing at the altar - at least the time I visited).

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
It'd in an area full of 'broken' and reconstituted families.

Although it functions well in the week as a community centre, the Sunday congregation is drawn from a wide ares outside the parish but few from within it.

Do people go to it? Then praise God instead of carping.
Average Sunday attendance = 53
According to the English Church Census of 2005 the average CofE congregation had 54 people, so 53 in 2014 isn't so bad.
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georgiaboy
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One more that seemed . just . wrong:

Jacob's Well (no other descriptor, IIRC).

From what I gather they are/were some sort of literalist fundamentalist group. I couldn't help but feel that they didn't read the gospel very carefully.

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Mudfrog
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quote:
Originally posted by Urfshyne:
Mudfrog,

What is wrong with
The Salvation Army
Church and Community Centre?

I have met too many people, including a surprising number in other churches, that thought that the SA was a charity and knew nothing about it being a place of worship.

Surely it is in the interests of any Christian organisation to make it obvious, from the outside, what takes place in those premises.

I know that I have come across members of that organisation who did not like to use the term "church" as they considered themselves part of an army, but I have not encountered this in more recent times.

Nothing at all - except we're not allowed to put, for example, Newcastle City Temple, or Blackpool Citadel, of Stockport Heaton Norris, or William Booth Memorial Halls. There should be nothing on the notice that gives the name of the particular corps or its location.

But on headed note paper we can have
Newcastle City Temple
Salvation Army
Church and Community Centre

But the Newcastle bit cannot be on the sign.

The only reason some have not liked to use the word 'church' is simply to get away from the ecclesiastical baggage that comes with it.

[ 11. May 2014, 21:37: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]

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Fr Weber
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quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Seventeenth, eh?

I know when to fold.

If only the Church of Christ, Scientist were so prudent.

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JeffTL
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And not far from Seventeenth Church - well, about a mile - is the Fourth Presbyterian Church of Chicago, so named not because it was actually the fourth Presbyterian church in Chicago, but because when North and Westminster churches merged, First, Second, Third, and Fifth existed but not Fourth (presumably a congregation that had failed somewhere along the way). So they took the name to have a fresh start despite some people wanting to call it Northminster.

Between Seventeenth and Fourth, if you take the right route, you'll pass the Cathedral Church of Saint James, the oldest Episcopal parish in town, which was named for the prior parish back east of its first rector. Not far away are Ascension, a parish started by low-church refugees from St. James but now a very Anglo-Catholic establishment, and St. Chrysostom's, the only Episcopal church in Chicago that still has choral Morning Prayer in lieu of the eucharist on alternating Sundays.

St. James assumed the cathedral dignity following the fire loss of the Cathedral Church of Sts. Peter and Paul on the near West Side in the 1920s (with some years in between during which hopes of building a new cathedral persisted). Sts. Peter and Paul, in turn, was originally titled the Church of the Atonement before the bishop took it over. Another parish on the far north side took over the Atonement name, and so it happens that our "highest" parishes have the names of Atonement, Ascension, and St. Paul by the Lake, which aren't really indicative of churchmanship, and nobody would expect a Low Church parish named after St. John Chrysostom anywhere else.

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seekingsister
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There is a large and growing Nigeria-based Word of Faith church called Winners Chapel International. Members tend to introduce themselves to others as "I'm a winner, are you?" There are even bumper stickers.

On a more traditional note, my mother grew up attending an Anglican church called St. Saviour's. I was visiting her hometown and when we drove past it I asked, "Who on Earth is St. Saviour?" She said she had never thought about it. My best guess is that it's Jesus and should more accurately be "Holy Saviour." Thoughts?

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Jengie jon

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Yes it is Holy Saviour, St Andrews has St Salvators but then St Andrews also has St Regulus which slightly translated is St Rule or Holy Rule/Law. Although there are different stories.

Jengie

[ 15. May 2014, 08:21: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]

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dj_ordinaire
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Norwich had a St. Crowche - derived from Sancti Crucis, so better translated as Holy Cross.

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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
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In England, if a United Reformed Church has a dedication (e.g. St. Paul's; St. Columba's; St. Andrew's), then it is a former Presbyterian church. On the other hand, if a URC church is simply named after the town or place in which it is situated, then it is a former Congregational church.

(Presbyterians and Congregationalists united in England in 1972 to form the United Reformed Church.)

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Pomona
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In my town we have a Church of the Holy Sepulchre dating to the Crusades, which is often referred to as 'St Seps' so I suppose it still happens that holy = saint in church names.

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Jengie jon

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quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
In England, if a United Reformed Church has a dedication (e.g. St. Paul's; St. Columba's; St. Andrew's), then it is a former Presbyterian church. On the other hand, if a URC church is simply named after the town or place in which it is situated, then it is a former Congregational church.

(Presbyterians and Congregationalists united in England in 1972 to form the United Reformed Church.)

Not quite see my earlier post for more details. There are former Presbyterians that use the placename convention such as Jesmond United Reformed Church or Aston Tirrold. Yes I am absolutely sure on both of these. What is little known is congregations within the Presbyterian Church of England come from both Church of Scotland and Free Church of Scotland tradition (as in prior to 1930 merger) as well as English Presbyterianism (well all six of them that did not go Congregational). I am pretty sure the Jesmond is of Free Church of Scotland Heritage (Heatons URC Manchester Presbyterian heritage is that as well, but it is a merged Cong and Presby, and I suspect the "Grosvenor" part of "Grosvenor St Aidans" is as well). Aston Tirrold is one of the few English Presbyterians. I suspect the saints were chose by the CofS heritage.

Jengie

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churchgeek

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quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
There is a large and growing Nigeria-based Word of Faith church called Winners Chapel International. Members tend to introduce themselves to others as "I'm a winner, are you?" There are even bumper stickers.

On a more traditional note, my mother grew up attending an Anglican church called St. Saviour's. I was visiting her hometown and when we drove past it I asked, "Who on Earth is St. Saviour?" She said she had never thought about it. My best guess is that it's Jesus and should more accurately be "Holy Saviour." Thoughts?

"Saint" means "holy." I've been told that there are a number of St. Saviour's churches around, and that it was an older naming tradition (in England?). (Also that there are St. Cross churches?) Is that true, anyone know? It could be that whoever told me that was just guessing.

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Basilica
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quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
There is a large and growing Nigeria-based Word of Faith church called Winners Chapel International. Members tend to introduce themselves to others as "I'm a winner, are you?" There are even bumper stickers.

On a more traditional note, my mother grew up attending an Anglican church called St. Saviour's. I was visiting her hometown and when we drove past it I asked, "Who on Earth is St. Saviour?" She said she had never thought about it. My best guess is that it's Jesus and should more accurately be "Holy Saviour." Thoughts?

"Saint" means "holy." I've been told that there are a number of St. Saviour's churches around, and that it was an older naming tradition (in England?). (Also that there are St. Cross churches?) Is that true, anyone know? It could be that whoever told me that was just guessing.
There are quite a lot of St Saviour's churches in the UK. I think it was particularly popular as a dedication during the nineteenth century.

I'm not familiar with any church called St Cross, but "Holy Cross" is not unknown.

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Augustine the Aleut
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There is a Saint Cross College at Oxford, and their site permits you to purchase Tshirts for teddy bears. Wikipedia infallibly informs us of half over a dozen churches, chapels, and colleges named Saint Cross. Of course, residents of Victoria BC will be cheered to learn that in the days of the fearless Bodega y Quadra, it was known as Santa Cruz.
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Sober Preacher's Kid

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The absolute best church name I have ever seen is Temperanceville United Church in Richmond Hill, Ontario.

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seekingsister
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quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:
"Saint" means "holy." I've been told that there are a number of St. Saviour's churches around, and that it was an older naming tradition (in England?). (Also that there are St. Cross churches?) Is that true, anyone know? It could be that whoever told me that was just guessing.

In Latin and Romance languages, the words for "saint" and "holy" are the same. Hence "Santa Clara" for St. Claire and "Santa Fe" for Holy Faith in Spanish, for example.

But in English, "saint" means a person, specifically a saved Christian. So "St Saviour" and "St Cross" just don't sound right. Unless this distinct meaning of saint is a newer development in the English language.

I mentioned this again to my mom yesterday and she said "Oh you know they actually changed the name of the church to Our Saviour's about 10 years ago, but we all still use the old name out of habit." So I guess that was to resolve the issue of the slightly odd name.

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Forthview
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Saint Sauveur and Sainte Croix are fine in French,
which reminds me that the 'palais de la Sainte Croix' aka Palace of Holyroodhouse in Edinburgh is at the moment the residence of Her Majesty's
special representative (Lord High Commissioner) to the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland.
This year,for those interested, it is the Earl of Wessex,the Prince Edward.

In German it is the same word for 'holy' and 'saint' - Heilige Theresia von Lisieux or Heiliger Johannes but you can also say Sankt Johann

The two separate words in English come from the hybrid nature of English taking many words from Germanic or Latin sources.

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JoannaP
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quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
There are quite a lot of St Saviour's churches in the UK. I think it was particularly popular as a dedication during the nineteenth century.

I go to a St Saviour's church; we are celebrating the 150th anniversary of its dedication later in the summer. Our feast day is Christ the King, the Sunday before Advent.

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Basilica
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quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
There are quite a lot of St Saviour's churches in the UK. I think it was particularly popular as a dedication during the nineteenth century.

I go to a St Saviour's church; we are celebrating the 150th anniversary of its dedication later in the summer. Our feast day is Christ the King, the Sunday before Advent.
Interesting. Every other St Saviour's I've ever known celebrated Ascension as the feast of title.
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betjemaniac
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quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
There is a Saint Cross College at Oxford, and their site permits you to purchase Tshirts for teddy bears. Wikipedia infallibly informs us of half over a dozen churches, chapels, and colleges named Saint Cross. Of course, residents of Victoria BC will be cheered to learn that in the days of the fearless Bodega y Quadra, it was known as Santa Cruz.

There was also St Cross, Holywell, in Oxford until about 3 years ago, but it's been deconsecrated and is now a college archive for Balliol. Kenneth Grahame is buried in the churchyard.

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Zappa
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There's an outstanding St Saviour's Cathedral in OZ, at least once written up by the media as "St Xavier's"

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Gee D
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quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
There's an outstanding St Saviour's Cathedral in OZ, at least once written up by the media as "St Xavier's"

But "outstanding" is an understatement for this one. It's hard to think of an adjective which is sufficiently superlative.

Perhaps Banner Lady could let us know about the Patronal Festival there.

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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
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quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
In England, if a United Reformed Church has a dedication (e.g. St. Paul's; St. Columba's; St. Andrew's), then it is a former Presbyterian church. On the other hand, if a URC church is simply named after the town or place in which it is situated, then it is a former Congregational church.

(Presbyterians and Congregationalists united in England in 1972 to form the United Reformed Church.)

Not quite see my earlier post for more details. There are former Presbyterians that use the placename convention such as Jesmond United Reformed Church or Aston Tirrold. Yes I am absolutely sure on both of these. What is little known is congregations within the Presbyterian Church of England come from both Church of Scotland and Free Church of Scotland tradition (as in prior to 1930 merger) as well as English Presbyterianism (well all six of them that did not go Congregational). I am pretty sure the Jesmond is of Free Church of Scotland Heritage (Heatons URC Manchester Presbyterian heritage is that as well, but it is a merged Cong and Presby, and I suspect the "Grosvenor" part of "Grosvenor St Aidans" is as well). Aston Tirrold is one of the few English Presbyterians. I suspect the saints were chose by the CofS heritage.

Jengie

Fair enough; I could only speak for my home area, which I have known all my life. I know, therefore, which URC churches are formerly Congregational and which are formerly Presbyterian and I have noticed this dedication tendency here.

Obviously, I cannot speak for places I don't know. As in everything else, there is an exception to every rule.

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Kaplan Corday
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A friend of mine grew up in a church which was called, from its nineteeth century origins, The Free Breakfast Mission.
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St. Stephen the Stoned
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Here in Sheffield, Endcliffe Methodist Church has been renamed "Horizon", while the Methodist Church at Nether Green is now called "Beacon". Is this a national trend or just a local fad?

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Jengie jon

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The Ragged Schools have long been replaced with state education but there are two churches which owe their origins to them and therefore are known as "Ragged Schools"

Jengie

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Zappa
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The theological implications of naming a church are fascinating. One suspects the plethora of saints' names in mediaeval and throught to reformation churches were at least in part about garnering the favour and protection of th saint in question - the proliferation of apostolically names churches in the Anglican tradition in the post-Reformation era, and the popularity of Paul, probably reflect post-Reformation emphases on the theology of the saint in question (with a few Bedes and Oswalds for good measure). The Methodists hung on to Paul tenaciously because he tended to be rather simpatico with the emphases of the Wesleys ... in the mean time in the Roman Catholic tradition many non-apostolic saints proliferated, not least as a thumbing of noses to nasty protestant heretics: Saint Francis Xavier, Saint Theresa, Saint Heloise. Ooops. No. Not St Heloise. She was naughty.

Slowly a sort of puritan counter-objection to the notion of a "saint" emerges, so we get Suburb Baptist ... Town Church of Christ, Street Apostolic ...

In the age of capitalist-gone-crazy church and radical market forces rebadging is everything (though the Africans in Africa and Afro-American circles were way ahead on this with "Jesus Saviour of the Left Happy Ventricle of Love Church" et cetera) ... "shine" "arise" "pulse" "throb".

Okay not the last because the psycho-sexual hints must always be subconscious, always phallic never yonnic ... ironically never anything ostensibly religious either, because the nomenclature, like the architecture, must never look too goddy (or is it too churchy, but since when were the two radically separated?) if we're going to lure unsuspecting teens into an encounter with ...

I'll stick with my St John's ... buggers up patronal festivals though. I guess neither the Jesus Saviour of the Left Happy Ventricle of Love Church nor Throb have those.

[ 18. May 2014, 19:23: Message edited by: Zappa ]

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The Silent Acolyte

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quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
There's an outstanding St Saviour's Cathedral in OZ, at least once written up by the media as "St Xavier's."

Bah on your link. We wants a picture.
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KevinL
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quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Seventeenth, eh?

I know when to fold.

http://www.28ccs.com/

28th Church of Christ, Scientist. Westwood neighborhood of Los Angeles (of UCLA fame).


*edited because accidentally posted w/just the quote and no additional material.

[ 19. May 2014, 07:14: Message edited by: KevinL ]

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Zappa
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quote:
Originally posted by KevinL:
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Seventeenth, eh?

I know when to fold.

http://www.28ccs.com/

28th Church of Christ, Scientist. Westwood neighborhood of Los Angeles (of UCLA fame).


*edited because accidentally posted w/just the quote and no additional material.

Chuckle

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Zappa
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quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
There's an outstanding St Saviour's Cathedral in OZ, at least once written up by the media as "St Xavier's."

Bah on your link. We wants a picture.
Well did!

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Jengie jon

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quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
Slowly a sort of puritan counter-objection to the notion of a "saint" emerges, so we get Suburb Baptist ... Town Church of Christ, Street Apostolic ...

Except you are wrong. As I posted earlier in URC there is a tradition which I take to be Puritan in origin (it fits with other naming traditions) of naming churches after Biblical places so you get "Zion", "Salem" and "Bethel" or places significant for worship so "Ebenezer" and "Tabernacle".

Jengie

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
a tradition which I take to be Puritan in origin (it fits with other naming traditions) of naming churches after Biblical places so you get "Zion", "Salem" and "Bethel" or places significant for worship so "Ebenezer" and "Tabernacle".

Jengie

And Carmel Welsh Presbyterian Church in Ballarat, Victoria, known to the scripturally illiterate as the Caramel Church.
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