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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Eccles: Liturgy as performance
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Anglican_Brat
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# 12349
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Posted
Regarding liturgical training, I've come across people who state their frustration with sloppy liturgy by saying something like this
"If the Symphony or the Theater tolerated such mistakes, they will be out of business. If they, being secular venues, take it so seriously, why can't the Church take its liturgies so seriously?"
Part of me wants to respond by saying that liturgy is not a performance, but on the other hand, they do have a point. Liturgy has a perfomative aspect and done well, it has a better shot of opening people to encounter God than a liturgy done sloppily.
[ 10. January 2015, 16:50: Message edited by: seasick ]
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Chocoholic
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# 4655
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Posted
IMO the actions/words of those leading worship, including ministers, servers, choir etc, should aim to give glory to God and help those assembled to worship. Fussiness can also be distracting. I also dislike it when it is thought of as a performance, as it can be like an act, and so lacking in honesty. I know we all put on masks etc, and need them when we are trying to do our work etc when we are unwell etc, but I do think it comes across sometimes.
I didn't use the word liturgy as it is often used as a word to describe what "those up front" are doing, but the Greek word, (which escapes me for now!) means "the work of the people" but many acts of worship don't seem to reflect this.
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Galilit
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# 16470
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Posted
Anything is better when done well and with intention - that means liturgy as well as peeling potatoes.
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
I suppose it all boils down to the need for those who are doing anything in the liturgy - leading, serving, reading, praying, playing music.....to do it as for the Lord and to do it as well as they possibly can. No-one can ask for more.
OTOH, it does perhaps mean that churches trying to put on a full Solemn High Mass with one priest, one server, three old ladies (the salt of the earth - I wish Our Place had more of 'em), and a cat, might profitably think of scaling down a bit.....
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Raptor Eye
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# 16649
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Posted
I don't know why it wouldn't be as important to celebrate high mass for a few as for a multitude?
What's vital is engagement with the liturgy by those delivering it. A written prayer delivered from the heart matches extemporary prayer from the heart. The former if read without feeling matches the latter poorly expressed. From my pov, of course. YMMV.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
Of course liturgy (including preaching) is performance, even in Low Church, Nonconformist and especially Pentecostal settings. It should be well done so that people are caught up to God through it. I should also be "from the heart" and honest otherwise it is empty and false - a mere performance.
To take the theatre analogy: in my church we basically start with a "blank piece of paper" each week, although the liturgy usually follows the same general format. This means that every service is a "first performance", with no opportunity to have a preview and find out what works and doesn't!
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
Raptor Eye - no, it's not the number attending that's important. My point was simply that, with a small congregation and limited resources as to servers etc., a scaling-down might be required. That, IMNSHO, does not mean a dumbing-down of the liturgy.......
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Fr Weber
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# 13472
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Posted
"Leitourgia" is probably better translated as "public work"--i.e. work done on behalf of the people. "The work of the people" can be accurate, of course, as long as the correct meaning of "of" is understood. In any case, we're talking etymology here and not meaning.
It seems to me that slovenliness and fussiness are both mistakes. We should strive to celebrate the liturgy decently and in order, avoiding carelessness or irreverence, but without fetishizing its performative aspects. There are more important things to worry about than whether Father makes a military-grade about-face from the altar when turning to the people, for example.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Fr Weber
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# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
I don't know why it wouldn't be as important to celebrate high mass for a few as for a multitude?
What's vital is engagement with the liturgy by those delivering it. A written prayer delivered from the heart matches extemporary prayer from the heart. The former if read without feeling matches the latter poorly expressed. From my pov, of course. YMMV.
Solemn High requires 3 sacred ministers, an MC, crucifer, thurifer, and 2 acolytes. Can't be done with just a priest and a server. Knowing that is crucial to understanding BF's point--I think he'd agree with you (and me) that a priest should be just as committed and present when celebrating for a small handful as when celebrating for a church full of people.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
If the Celebrant is sloppy when performing the Liturgy it really does give the impression he doesn't care. Although much of the church's work goes on during the week and much of it is hidden eg. pastoral care, the main services are the public face of the church and should therefore be carried out with great care.
Perhaps what people on this thread are highlighting is that great care can sometimes turn into obsessiveness, which isn't the same thing at all.
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Raptor Eye
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# 16649
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Posted
Bishop's Finger & Fr Weber, thank you for clarifying that for me.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
I have to say that our priest-in-charge celebrates Mass with as much dignity and care on a Wednesday evening (with 7 or 8 present) as on a Sunday morning (with a vast crowd of 40)!
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Olaf
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# 11804
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Posted
My biggest issue with this is when there is an obvious lack of preparation. In some churches it is blatant and disappointing. It doesn't matter whether it is the lowest Low Church megachurch or the Nosebleed Highest place--the presider should know automatically what s/he is doing.
I firmly believe that inspiration does occur during advance planning.
Furthermore, advance planning makes the presidency of the liturgy a corporate work, by allowing the collaboration of scholarship (i.e. "book" liturgy prepared by scholars), the laypeople of the church, the musicians, the assistants, and the presider.
If this sounds laborious, that's because it is. Face facts: the church assembled at worship is not only the primary gathering point of the faithful, but also for many of them the only contact point they have with the church all week. It is also very often the only contact point that visitors have with the church as well.
Personally, I feel the way to reduce the burden is to use prepared liturgical materials and an agreed-upon lectionary. Changing things around maybe makes things seem a bit less fussy, but definitely increases the sloppiness, as I have never encountered such a church that puts the prep time into the service that it should if it wants to constantly change the service around.
Of all the largest organized faith traditions in the world, Christianity has to have by far the most diversity and options in terms of liturgical practice, and yet there are still people who complain that it's all the same, all the time. Good grief.
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Gwalchmai
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# 17802
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Posted
I do wonder if some of the clergy ever had any liturgical training - I have worshipped in too many churches where the standard of the service is extremely amateurish.
Good liturgical worship does not have to be OCD anglo-catholic. A good place to start is with book marks in the service book, so that the celebrant / minister does not spend time trying to find the right page. Some preparation beforehand by those taking the service always helps. Don't give the impression you are making it up as you go along. Make sure the service hangs together - do the hymns and sermon have some relevance to the readings or the theme for the Sunday?
The clergy are professionals and they ought to be able to conduct the worship of the church professionally. Sloppy worship suggests a sloppy faith. A lot of amateurish worship tends to be accompanied by amateurish sermons of the "Smile, Jesus loves you" variety. I have usually found that professionally conducted liturgy is accompanied by a reasoned, learned and though-provoking sermon.
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Arabella Purity Winterbottom
Trumpeting hope
# 3434
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
A lot of amateurish worship tends to be accompanied by amateurish sermons of the "Smile, Jesus loves you" variety. I have usually found that professionally conducted liturgy is accompanied by a reasoned, learned and though-provoking sermon.
I would almost say its the other way round: a really good sermon is usually preached in the context of well-prepared worship. My experience of very liturgically enthusiastic parishes has produced some extremely ghastly sermonising. Not all, but where the sermon was great, the whole service tended to be great.
I'm particularly thinking of the cathedral where I sang in the choir as a student: the preaching was almost all awful, but the services were rather nice to be part of, well organised and sincere. On the other hand, the Presbyterian church I belonged to last had two wonderful preachers, and equally excellent worship leadership from those preachers.
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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal
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Brenda Clough
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# 18061
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Posted
In American churches the scutwork is often delegated. In mine we have an Altar Guild, a troupe of anal-retentive ladies who spend all their time filling lamps and candles, straightening stoles, precisely lining up ciboria, and so on. I drew a cartoon for our newsletter once. It depicted the tombstone of an Altar Guild member. The inscription was, "Is this stone perfectly upright and exactly centered over my grave?"
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Gramps49
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# 16378
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Posted
Our service for the First Sunday in Lent was way off. There were missed cues, people got lost in the service, a the pianist played the wrong hymn. What happened? Could it have been due to Daylight Saving Time change? Possibly.
Still God's grace can still come through in amazing ways.
(I also like a well done liturgy, but I know God can work in mysterious ways.)
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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
My biggest issue with this is when there is an obvious lack of preparation.
...and perhaps no more so than when this week's reader comes across one of the less familiar Old Testament names, and it's obviously as much a surprise to him as his effort at pronunciation is to the rest of the congregation.
Have a read-through in advance, please (and by read-through, I mean out loud, even if it's just you and the bathroom mirror. In your head doesn't count.)
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South Coast Kevin
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# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Although much of the church's work goes on during the week and much of it is hidden eg. pastoral care, the main services are the public face of the church and should therefore be carried out with great care.
I'm struggling to explain why, but this sentence really jars with me. I think it's that I would say the 'public face of the church' is (or should be) actually all the different things, both formal and informal, that the church members do in their day-to-day lives.
By which I mean things like pastoral care within the church community, but also simply the ways in which we represent Christ (well or badly!) among our family, friends, workmates, neighbours etc. etc. This, for me, is the 'public face of the church'.
All of which doesn't mean we should do the church service stuff sloppily or without respect, just that we shouldn't consider it to be the main focus or the highlight of our ongoing faith in Jesus. Therefore IMO it shouldn't constitute anything like the majority of each member's engagement with God or take up anything like the majority of our time, money and effort as a church community.
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Trisagion
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# 5235
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Posted
Although I start from the position that the Liturgy, and specifically the Holy Mass is the source and summit of the Christian life, I find myself much more in agreement with SCK's post than I should have expected. FWIW, I think we should do whatever we do with care and attentiveness, conscious that we do it in His name.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
In American churches the scutwork is often delegated. In mine we have an Altar Guild, a troupe of anal-retentive ladies who spend all their time filling lamps and candles, straightening stoles, precisely lining up ciboria, and so on. I drew a cartoon for our newsletter once. It depicted the tombstone of an Altar Guild member. The inscription was, "Is this stone perfectly upright and exactly centered over my grave?"
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
But what does 'scutwork' mean? I don't think we use that word over here? Is it some sort of ecclesiastical needlework?
[ 25. March 2014, 08:11: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Ad Orientem
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# 17574
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Posted
The liturgy is not a performance. Something can be done sincerely and attentively whilst allowing for genuine mistakes. And I don't care is the cantor is out of tune, or if the subdeacon forgets something and has to ask the priest, as long as the liturgy is served in a reverent spirit.
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I think SCK misunderstands what I'm trying to say. Perhaps it's because I attend a civic church: the pastoral care is just as important obviously, but the church stands for something in the town as a public statement, with large numbers attending main services. If an effort is made to ensure the services flow well, with due reverence (as mentioned above), though allowing for our humanity to shine through as well, then people will feel the church has a voice worth hearing in the town. (And then, by a follow-on process, people will feel secure in asking for pastoral care when needed.)
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
In American churches the scutwork is often delegated. In mine we have an Altar Guild, a troupe of anal-retentive ladies who spend all their time filling lamps and candles, straightening stoles, precisely lining up ciboria, and so on. I drew a cartoon for our newsletter once. It depicted the tombstone of an Altar Guild member. The inscription was, "Is this stone perfectly upright and exactly centered over my grave?"
But what does 'scutwork' mean? I don't think we use that word over here? Is it some sort of ecclesiastical needlework?
Presumably not to be confused with scudwork, which is defined as (1) the writing of dialogue for pornographic movies, or (2) the writing of completely spurious articles about cars in magazines sold primarily for their depiction of scantily clad, or completely unclad, young ladies.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
I'm still confused: a scut is the proper term for the tail of a rabbit...
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South Coast Kevin
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# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I think SCK misunderstands what I'm trying to say. Perhaps it's because I attend a civic church: the pastoral care is just as important obviously, but the church stands for something in the town as a public statement, with large numbers attending main services. If an effort is made to ensure the services flow well, with due reverence (as mentioned above), though allowing for our humanity to shine through as well, then people will feel the church has a voice worth hearing in the town. (And then, by a follow-on process, people will feel secure in asking for pastoral care when needed.)
Yes, I get all that and I agree that we shouldn't be sloppy in the way we do our church services (be they smells, bells and formal liturgy, or electric guitars a-go-go).
I was just querying the mindset of what happens for a few hours one day a week being the most significant part of the impression we make and the impact we have on the wider community. Most of us have plenty of interaction with non-Christians through the week; that for me is the public face of our church, and indeed of Christ himself.
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Brenda Clough
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# 18061
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Posted
Sorry, an Americanism. Scutwork is the work that you hope other people would do. Replacing the roll of paper towels in the holder, mopping up spills, removing stains, ironing linens, adding fuel to the reservoirs. Someone once asked my husband what the Altar Guild does at our church. Truthfully, he replied, "They polish metal."
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Olaf
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# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
The liturgy is not a performance. Something can be done sincerely and attentively whilst allowing for genuine mistakes. And I don't care is the cantor is out of tune, or if the subdeacon forgets something and has to ask the priest, as long as the liturgy is served in a reverent spirit.
Indeed, even in the liturgies with the best of intentions, mistakes are sometimes made. These are easily understood and forgotten.
The lines-not-to-cross are these:
-the same mistakes are made regularly
-leaders are regularly fumbling for notes to see what is next (musicians, readers, assistants, presiders)
-lots of confused down time (unintentional silence)
These indicate that more education, more practice, and/or more preparation are needed. Continued mistakes are disrespectful, and not just to the congregation. It's sort of like using proper language conventions or spelling. One can easily forgive a mistake here and there, but frequent mistakes demonstrate exactly how little one cares about one's work, and about one's readers.
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stonespring
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# 15530
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Posted
One thing I notice in some Episcopalian parishes in the US is the frequent announcement of page numbers in the BCP and time for page-flipping, which seems to be a distraction from the prayerfulness and beauty of the Liturgy. It does help everyone feel able to have "full, active, and conscious" participation in the Liturgy, though, especially newcomers who might not know how to navigate all the page numbers listed in the weekly service sheet. What do you think? Should parts of the Liturgy be announced, with the celebrant (or other minister) acting like an emcee or the host of a variety show, with page numbers (and hymn numbers) said aloud and ample time for page turning?
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
No easy answers to this - unless you produce a bespoke service leaflet each time.
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Anglican_Brat
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# 12349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
One thing I notice in some Episcopalian parishes in the US is the frequent announcement of page numbers in the BCP and time for page-flipping, which seems to be a distraction from the prayerfulness and beauty of the Liturgy. It does help everyone feel able to have "full, active, and conscious" participation in the Liturgy, though, especially newcomers who might not know how to navigate all the page numbers listed in the weekly service sheet. What do you think? Should parts of the Liturgy be announced, with the celebrant (or other minister) acting like an emcee or the host of a variety show, with page numbers (and hymn numbers) said aloud and ample time for page turning?
The rule I was given is to only announce things if they are not printed in the service leaflet.
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
In my (US, Anglican) church they have projection devices. No hymnals or paper bulletins necessary -- all the words are shined up onto the wall in big letters, verse by verse. It's a real blessing for people with vision issues. They hand out paper bulletins as well, and there are BCPs and Bibles in the pew racks, so all the bases are covered.
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
It is not "just" a performance. But having a performance attitude is good practice, it seems to me.
A performance attitude is one where you consciously aim for the best, rather than having a half-arsed "lets get this thing over with" attitude.
A performance attitude is one where you've taken the care to make sure that all the "props" are where they should be and that every "performer" knows their lines and their cues. Nothing undermines a sense of worship quicker than the sinking feeling that those leading it don't know what they are doing.
A performance attitude is one where even a "repeat" performance is treated as a "live" show, where the "performers" are sensitive to the "audience" response and can adjust accordingly. Watch a good play and you will see what I mean - the best actors feed off of the audience response and so each performance is different and unique.
A performance attitude is one where the personality of the "performers" comes through. Watch the two film versions of Henry V - Olivier and Branagh. See how they treat the same lines differently in their own style.
Most (if not all) "worship leaders" (of any style of worship) could learn a lot by considering what goes into making a play (or a concert) a success and putting some of the basic rules of performance into practice.
Of course there is much more to worship than that. But it is a good place to start and a bad thing to avoid.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
It is not "just" a performance. But having a performance attitude is good practice, it seems to me.
A performance attitude is one where you consciously aim for the best, rather than having a half-arsed "lets get this thing over with" attitude.
But on the flipside, a performance attitude can also mean only the most skilled / gifted people are used for any given role, because 'we should give our best to God'. (Not implying you meant this, OtG, just making a general point.)
That's completely the wrong attitude, IMO. Each of us individually should give our best to God (noting that this absolutely doesn't just apply to our church service tasks, but to every aspect of life) but as a gathered community I think we should be about drawing out everyone's gifts, both developed and nascent, and giving everyone opportunity to play their part in building up the community.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
An observation - Christmas Eve, Midnight Mass, parents' church - obvious the organist is playing from "15 Easy Christmas Carols" or something similar. First thought is "blimey, that's a boring arrangement". Second thought however is, "yes, but you're a musician so you notice more. And what's better - that this organist play from a book where she can play without mistakes, or she try to play from the Oxford Book of Carols, and either play lots of bum notes or give up and not play at all?"
Second observation - how often do we say "not suitable/good enough/whatever for God" when we mean "not good enough for me."?
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
That's quite an important point, Karl - I know that I (sometimes subconsciously) cast nasturtiums on others 'doing things' at Mass perhaps not quite as well as they might be doing - but hey! They may well be giving their very best for God as they see it, so WTF am I doing criticising them......??
God grant us all humility..... ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
But on the flipside, a performance attitude can also mean only the most skilled / gifted people are used for any given role, because 'we should give our best to God'. (Not implying you meant this, OtG, just making a general point.)
That's completely the wrong attitude, IMO. Each of us individually should give our best to God (noting that this absolutely doesn't just apply to our church service tasks, but to every aspect of life) but as a gathered community I think we should be about drawing out everyone's gifts, both developed and nascent, and giving everyone opportunity to play their part in building up the community.
I would agree absolutely with that. Too often people are discouraged from offering their abilities to be used in God's service (especially in worship) because they aren't "good enough" - but they will never get "good enough" without experience.
BUT - there is a proviso....
There needs to be some degree of control (possibly not the right word) to ensure that there is some degree of ability. I might well offer my "gifts" as a guitar player - but if I can barely manage three chords after 10 years of practicing, I am unlikely to be able to bless the people in worship, no matter how sincere or enthusiastic I might be.
I guess I am railing against the people who could do better but are just slipshod and careless. People who are eager to do the best they can are usually far easier to work with.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
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Roselyn
Shipmate
# 17859
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Posted
I like bells and smells full blown but when people dress up and then wander around the sanctuary chatting before the service, I'd rather not be there.
Posts: 98 | From: gold coast gld australia | Registered: Oct 2013
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Perhaps part of the problem is with the word 'performance' which may imply something being done up at the front, for show, with lots of onlookers, completely separate. However, if you think of the best performances at the theatre, by experienced professionals, they make the action seem so effortless that people are drawn into the scene, completely suspending the outside world, and even time itself, until the theatre goers and the stage players almost become one, with no dividing barriers between them, and something 'spiritual' occurs.
That can only happen in a theatre where the performers are masters of their craft, and, I would argue, the same is true of church also.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
It is not "just" a performance. But having a performance attitude is good practice, it seems to me.
A performance attitude is one where you consciously aim for the best, rather than having a half-arsed "lets get this thing over with" attitude.
But on the flipside, a performance attitude can also mean only the most skilled / gifted people are used for any given role, because 'we should give our best to God'. (Not implying you meant this, OtG, just making a general point.)
Good drama can draw out the best in everyone though. Maybe not the starring rôle but encouraging everyone to contribute and participate.
Carys
[Confusing @ and & in escape characters]
[ 26. March 2014, 22:39: Message edited by: Carys ]
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chocoholic:
IMO the actions/words of those leading worship, including ministers, servers, choir etc, should aim to give glory to God and help those assembled to worship.
quote:
Bishops Finger says:
I suppose it all boils down to the need for those who are doing anything in the liturgy - leading, serving, reading, praying, playing music.....to do it as for the Lord and to do it as well as they possibly can. No-one can ask for more.
quote:
Fr Weber says:
"Leitourgia" is probably better translated as "public work"--i.e. work done on behalf of the people.
My beef on this thread is with the attitudes expressed by these quotes.
It's as if the people are not full, active participants in the liturgy. It's as though the people couldn't be sloven in the performance of their actions.
Liturgy is a corporate, hierarchical performance of ritualize actions. Each order in the hierarchy takes on the role proper to its order.
Yes, there is a performance. Yes, there are actors. The point is that everyone present has ritualized actions to perform. Everyone present is thereby an actor.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
It's as if the people are not full, active participants in the liturgy. It's as though the people couldn't be sloven in the performance of their actions.
Liturgy is a corporate, hierarchical performance of ritualize actions. Each order in the hierarchy takes on the role proper to its order.
Yes, there is a performance. Yes, there are actors. The point is that everyone present has ritualized actions to perform. Everyone present is thereby an actor.
That is perfectly put.
Though I would not call it a hierarchy - more that some people are more central and therefore more obvious than others.
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
In reply to The Silent Acolyte, I do take the point regarding the participation of everyone - Galilit's reply expresses it well! Sorry if I gave the wrong impression.......I plead age and infirmity.......
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I profoundly disagree with a great deal of has been said on this thread. I have commented on other threads that there is no such thing as an 'act of worship'. Worship is not an act. It is 'for real'. Those who are involved in leadership in some way, clergy, choir etc are not performing something which the congregation watch or listen to. Their role is to enable everybody present to worship (verb). We are all there both to fall down and worship the Lord our Maker and to help one another to do so.
I would also say that both sloppiness and too much perfection, can prevent this happening
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I profoundly disagree with a great deal of has been said on this thread. I have commented on other threads that there is no such thing as an 'act of worship'. Worship is not an act. It is 'for real'. Those who are involved in leadership in some way, clergy, choir etc are not performing something which the congregation watch or listen to. Their role is to enable everybody present to worship (verb). We are all there both to fall down and worship the Lord our Maker and to help one another to do so.
I would also say that both sloppiness and too much perfection, can prevent this happening
Sorry - but I think this is just a (deliberate?) misreading of what I and others have been saying.
There is such thing as "pure" worship. Worship is made up in part (quite a substantial part) of the activities of human beings. And so, it is surely sensible and even essential for us to consider how our physical actions contribute to or detract from worship.
Everything has the potential to affect how we worship - the physical context of the building; the attitudes and actions of those involved in leading the worship; the attitudes of all the congregation.
As someone who leads worship, I can have little influence upon the attitudes of the members of the congregation. If someone turns up in a foul mood because they've had a blazing row with their spouse, or if someone comes deeply depressed - there's not much I can do about that. BUT I CAN do something about my own actions and attitudes. I can also (hopefully) do something about the physical context (even if I can't knock the building down and start again).
THIS is what I am recommending - paying attention to the things I can affect, so that the whole "worship experience" (ghastly phrase) can be enhanced, so that all can worship more fully.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
There is such thing as "pure" worship.
Sorry - that should of course have read "there is no such thing as "pure worship"."
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I profoundly disagree with a great deal of has been said on this thread. I have commented on other threads that there is no such thing as an 'act of worship'. Worship is not an act. It is 'for real'.
Know what you're saying and agree with the idea of worship as a verb. But an 'act' of worship is no more impossible - or unreal - than an 'act' of kindness is unreal. One can 'be' kind, and perform an act of kindness. One can worship, live a worshipful life, have a worshipful time, and take part in an act of worship. English is a very rich - or limited - language, depending on how you look at it!
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Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Enoch
Look up the meaning of Performative. If we change from thinking of "performance" to "performs" we get at the complexities that are going on. It is correct to say "a doctor performed an operation". I doubt that such a doctor was pretending.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
One does not "perform" the liturgy, instead one "serves" the liturgy.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
Surely the liturgy is the service?
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
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