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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Eccles: Churchmanship of Anglican religious orders in England
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
So I am going to suggest something else, the ordination of Women. The Diaconal orders grew up as an alternative to ordination for women. Yes Anglican Religious Orders are predominantly female. The timing of the creation of Anglican Religious orders is very similar, they both came around late nineteenth century. When you compare the Anglican Orders with the Continental Diaconals the differences you see here disappear.
Actually, that doesn't quite stack up with the Methodist experience. When we ordained women to the presbyterate they closed the Wesley Deaconess Order - as in, they stopped accepting new deaconesses. Some were ordained presbyter and some carried on, but it was accepted that it would eventually die out. However, our experience was that people were still being called to diaconal ministry and the Conference re-opened the order as the Methodist Diaconal Order, open to women and men, a religious order (with a rule of life) and an order of minstry, ordained to the diaconate of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
Out of interest, do you know if this was the case in Methodists outside the UK?
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
The short answer, is no, it wasn't. Methodist Churches are all autonomous and while bound by common ancestry and relationships fellowship are free to develop their polity as they see fit. So lots of national Methodist churches have deacons but their history will vary. The UMC for example, had a transitional diaconate like Anglicans until very recently and now has home missioners (male) and deaconesses (female) who do the religious order/mission kind of stuff and deacons (ordained; male or female) who tend to have particular jobs in local parishes.
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Just to be clear, a UMC deaconess is distinct from a female decon, correct?
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
Correct.
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Just to be clear, a UMC deaconess is distinct from a female decon, correct?
And in the Anglican church as well.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Just to be clear, a UMC deaconess is distinct from a female decon, correct?
And in the Anglican church as well.
Deaconesses as a distinct group of their own (and not female deacons) no longer exist in the Anglican church, I thought? Certainly not in the CoE.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
They exist in the Anglican Church of Australia.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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The Man with a Stick
Shipmate
# 12664
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Just to be clear, a UMC deaconess is distinct from a female decon, correct?
And in the Anglican church as well.
Deaconesses as a distinct group of their own (and not female deacons) no longer exist in the Anglican church, I thought? Certainly not in the CoE.
They *do* still exist in the CofE. There hasn't been any provision for admitting new ones for 25 years or so, but they didn't all become Deacons/Priests. Most of them are getting on a bit now.
Presumably, when the last Deaconess has died, we might repeal the entire section of the Canons relating to Deaconesses (Section D)!
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
We had a Deaconess or two in the (con-evo) Church Of My Yoof - they wore a sort of dark red dressing-gown as their distinctive liturgical vesture...
/tangent alert/
We also had a lady known as The Parish Worker (as though no-one else did any work......). I think she/they became Pastoral Assistants eventually.
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
There was a deaconess in our church. I think she was ordained Deacon about ten seconds after it became legal.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
We had a Deaconess or two in the (con-evo) Church Of My Yoof - they wore a sort of dark red dressing-gown as their distinctive liturgical vesture...
Ian J.
Didn't deaconesses wear blue cassocks? I think they wore these during services and without a surplice or cotta.
I seem to remember they wore some kind of pectoral cross as well or when they were in civies.
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
If you want to characterise liturgically Anglican orders then I suspect there are really three varieties.
- Those that use a form of the monastic/Benedictine office.
- Those who use an office based around Book of Common Prayer. Often extended but I would say Morning Prayer, Eucharist, (Mid-day prayer) Evening Prayer and Compline.
- Those who use a form of prayer created by their founder, quite possibly drawing on a wide variety of sources. I forget where I came across this third variety, but I can remember conversations about at least one of these. Several different convents seemed to use it.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
If you want to characterise liturgically Anglican orders then I suspect there are really three varieties.
- Those that use a form of the monastic/Benedictine office.
- Those who use an office based around Book of Common Prayer. Often extended but I would say Morning Prayer, Eucharist, (Mid-day prayer) Evening Prayer and Compline.
- Those who use a form of prayer created by their founder, quite possibly drawing on a wide variety of sources. I forget where I came across this third variety, but I can remember conversations about at least one of these. Several different convents seemed to use it.
Jengie
I would agree. It seems that the second group is the most common amongst female orders in England.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
So I am going to suggest something else, the ordination of Women. The Diaconal orders grew up as an alternative to ordination for women. Yes Anglican Religious Orders are predominantly female. The timing of the creation of Anglican Religious orders is very similar, they both came around late nineteenth century. When you compare the Orders with the Continental Diaconals the differences you see here disappear.
Jengie
Are the Anglican Religious Orders predominantly female? SSF is much larger than CSF and has novices which CSF does not at the moment. I suspect that SSF is bigger than CSF and OSC combined (which arguably it is with Glasshampton playing the Freeland rôle).
Similarly Mucknall which is a mixed house has 5 professed brothers, 3 professed sisters, and 3 male and 1 female novice. I've a feeling, but can't find this on their website, that they began as a female house and were shrinking before becoming mixed.
I'm now trying to remember where Isaw figures on the number of religious in the Church of England and whether there were more men than women. I think there were. I'll try and find those figures.
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
This article from 2009 [url=http://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/jan/11/religion-monks-nuns] gives figures of 470 nuns and 135 monks then down from 710 and 230 in 2000. So yes, historically nuns have been more common than monks in the CofE. Both are declining sharply though, so it can't all be because there are other opportunities for women now which is a big change from the 19th and early 20th centuries and probably contributed to the greater number of nuns.
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
Similarly Mucknall which is a mixed house has 5 professed brothers, 3 professed sisters, and 3 male and 1 female novice. I've a feeling, but can't find this on their website, that they began as a female house and were shrinking before becoming mixed.
Carys
They were founded at Burford as a women's Benedictine community.
The ordination of women certainly means that women who couldn't be priests were likely to consider a vocation as a religious. The Deaconess Community of St Andrew certainly lost their raison d'etre.
But the priestly and religious vocations are different and men's vocations are falling as well. I rather believe women's vocations are falling drastically in the Roman Catholic Church in the West as well.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
What is the function of a monastic life ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I rather believe women's vocations are falling drastically in the Roman Catholic Church in the West as well.
Not so much among some of the traditional and orthodox orders. The following article is worth reading: The CARA Study and Vocations.
quote:
The study, “Recent Vocations to Religious Life: A Report for the National Religious Vocation Conference,” was conducted by the well-respected Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate (CARA) at Georgetown University and published in August 2009. The study concluded:
The most successful institutes in terms of attracting and retaining new members at this time are those that follow a more traditional style of religious life in which members live together in community and participate in daily Eucharist, pray the Divine Office, and engage in devotional practices together. They also wear a religious habit, work together in common apostolates, and are explicit about their fidelity to the Church and the teachings of the Magisterium. All of these characteristics are especially attractive to the young people who are entering religious life today.
The article goes on to describe a number of these successful orders: The Dominican Sisters of St. Cecilia (aka the Nashville Dominicans), Carmelite Sisters of the Sacred Heart of Los Angeles , Sisters of St. Francis of Perpetual Adoration , The Dominican Sisters of Mary, Mother of the Eucharist , Religious Sisters of Mercy of Alma , and a few orders for men. I know that Mother Angelica's Poor Clares of Perpetual Adoration and Fr. Benedict Groeschel's Franciscan Friars of Renewal have also experienced tremendous growth.
Some of these orders are now serving in the U.k. The Sisters of St. Cecilia are serving Scotland (American Dominican Sisters move to Scotland) and the Franciscan Sisters of the Renewal have a convent in Leeds.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Carys
What you are forgetting is the multitude of small women's orders.
The old RC joke goes that there are three things the Almighty does not know:
- What a Jesuit will do next
- What a Dominican will say next
- how many women's religious orders there are in France
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Just to say something more has come back to me about the third type. The order was in Ilkley. I noted it because there was also a Methodist Deaconess College in Ilkley.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
What is the function of a monastic life ?
Monastic -- prayer.
Religious -- prayer and work in community.
They are a part of the overall Christian community with its multiple vocations. An internal organ of some sort I supposed.
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
I'm glad the American sisters are moving to the Greyfriars convent in Elgin - a pre-Reformation foundation given new life in the 19th century by a great benefactor of the Catholic Church in Scotland, the 3rd Marquis of Bute - the chapel is, or certainly was, a marvellous example of a medieval one.
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Panda
Shipmate
# 2951
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Posted
The community of nuns at Ty Mawr, near Monmouth in Wales is SSC, and describe themselves as living under a modern rule influenced by the Cistercian tradition. One of the nuns is a priest, but I understand she doesn't usually celebrate unless the visiting priest, who might be male or female, can't make it. I would say they are fairly catholic in their churchmanship.
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
What is the function of a monastic life ?
Monastic -- prayer.
Religious -- prayer and work in community.
They are a part of the overall Christian community with its multiple vocations. An internal organ of some sort I supposed.
Carys
So I guess a closed order would best fit the prayer function, less distractions. Would you need to take a position on churchmanship to make that work ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
What is the function of a monastic life ?
Monastic -- prayer.
Religious -- prayer and work in community.
They are a part of the overall Christian community with its multiple vocations. An internal organ of some sort I supposed.
Carys
So I guess a closed order would best fit the prayer function, less distractions. Would you need to take a position on churchmanship to make that work ?
It would matter as to whether the order accepted female clergy to celebrate the Eucharist, or whether female members of the order could themselves be ordained.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
What is the function of a monastic life ?
Monastic -- prayer.
Religious -- prayer and work in community.
They are a part of the overall Christian community with its multiple vocations. An internal organ of some sort I supposed.
Carys
So I guess a closed order would best fit the prayer function, less distractions. Would you need to take a position on churchmanship to make that work ?
Enclosure is the difference between monastic and religious yes. If you mean churchmanship in broadest sense (rather than with reference to a certain dead horse), then it is possible to have religious communities from the evangelical tradition and examples of such communities have been cited on this thread, but much of the evangelical tradition has been wary of the idea of enclosed orders and indeed the contemplative tradition in general. I suppose that there are no examples of a monastic community in the Bible, although the disciples holding everything in common in Acts could be seen as headed in that area, but that was for all not just a subset. I think may be that is why the more evangelical end of the spectrum shy away from religious communities because it is a specific vocation which can be seen as 'better', 'more holy' 'elite' and so falls under a similar suspician as clericalism.
Personally, l would see life in community as one of many vocations and maybe we need to think about vocations more, so so are called to marriage, some are called to celibacy in community, others to celibacy in the world or as hermits. Currently marriage is just the default and maybe not valued as a vocation in which people grow in Christlikeness...
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
What is the function of a monastic life ?
Monastic -- prayer.
Religious -- prayer and work in community.
They are a part of the overall Christian community with its multiple vocations. An internal organ of some sort I supposed.
Carys
So I guess a closed order would best fit the prayer function, less distractions. Would you need to take a position on churchmanship to make that work ?
Enclosure is the difference between monastic and religious yes. If you mean churchmanship in broadest sense (rather than with reference to a certain dead horse), then it is possible to have religious communities from the evangelical tradition and examples of such communities have been cited on this thread, but much of the evangelical tradition has been wary of the idea of enclosed orders and indeed the contemplative tradition in general. I suppose that there are no examples of a monastic community in the Bible, although the disciples holding everything in common in Acts could be seen as headed in that area, but that was for all not just a subset. I think may be that is why the more evangelical end of the spectrum shy away from religious communities because it is a specific vocation which can be seen as 'better', 'more holy' 'elite' and so falls under a similar suspician as clericalism.
Personally, l would see life in community as one of many vocations and maybe we need to think about vocations more, so so are called to marriage, some are called to celibacy in community, others to celibacy in the world or as hermits. Currently marriage is just the default and maybe not valued as a vocation in which people grow in Christlikeness...
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
What is the function of a monastic life ?
Monastic -- prayer.
Religious -- prayer and work in community.
They are a part of the overall Christian community with its multiple vocations. An internal organ of some sort I supposed.
Carys
So I guess a closed order would best fit the prayer function, less distractions. Would you need to take a position on churchmanship to make that work ?
It would matter as to whether the order accepted female clergy to celebrate the Eucharist, or whether female members of the order could themselves be ordained.
I suppose I was assuming a) priesthood as a different vocation and b) that a life of contemplative prayer would in some sense be a vocation removed from those battles.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
All monastics are religious. Not all religious live in monasteries. (I mean religious in the specific sense of the OP. It's an unfortunate word, but there isn't another.)
Marriage is certainly not the default setting according to the gospels.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
....and, for those of you not comfortable with using Amazon, try eBay (though it might cost a quid or two more).
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Or try Canterbury Press or Church House bookshop.
I was at Church House bookshop yesterday and passed St Edward's House, the last house in England of the Cowley Fathers, SSJE. All locked up and no sign of use. Together with the former Nashdom Benedictines, now at Salisbury, a former great community now about to disappear.
Very, very sad.
[ 28. March 2014, 17:47: Message edited by: venbede ]
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
It would matter as to whether the order accepted female clergy to celebrate the Eucharist, or whether female members of the order could themselves be ordained.
I suppose I was assuming a) priesthood as a different vocation and b) that a life of contemplative prayer would in some sense be a vocation removed from those battles.
Although a different vocation to priesthood it is possible to be called to both and as religious communities tend to be places which celebrate a daily Eucharist, they need either priests in community or who will come in to celebrate.
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
... I was at Church House bookshop yesterday and passed St Edward's House, the last house in England of the Cowley Fathers, SSJE. All locked up and no sign of use. Together with the former Nashdom Benedictines, now at Salisbury, a former great community now about to disappear.
Very, very sad.
I agree with you, but isn't this in danger of being a bit like the ecclesiastical equivalent of the limousine liberal. The accusation was that they were always expecting other people to make sacrifices. Here, are we expecting other people to have vocations or bemoaning that they haven't done?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Qoheleth.
Semi-Sagacious One
# 9265
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I was at Church House bookshop yesterday and passed St Edward's House, the last house in England of the Cowley Fathers, SSJE. All locked up and no sign of use.
Sold, I believe, to Westminster School.
See here
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The Benedictine Community at Alton Abbey offers a friendly, personal service for the exclusive supply of Rosa Mystica incense.
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Gottschalk
Shipmate
# 13175
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Posted
How about the Oratorians of the Good Shepherd? E.L. Mascall was a member, methinks. Would they receive ministrations from lady vicars?
Posts: 157 | From: The Kingdom of Fife | Registered: Nov 2007
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Firstly it is a dispersed community. Secondly the answer would appear to be yes although not admitting women, there are ordained women among the companions. However I suspect they use the note of "Liberty" and some do and some don't. I am aware that at least at one stage SSF also took this stance so I would semi-expect that from a dispersed community.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
My college chaplain was OGS and "pro". Bishop Lindsay Urwin is OGS and "anti". So, yes, mixed.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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