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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Eccles: Bridges and new congregations
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
Everyone can sing. It's mostly a matter of confidence.
But yes, I do think that singing is essential, at least for the main Sunday service. I'm surprised you don't think it's essential SCK, since 'singing hymns and spiritual songs' is one of the few features of NT church worship we know about.
Edited to add that I think it's a definite minority who don't like singing in church. People generally love singing carols at Christmas, after all. Many people join churches for the choir. Lots of people enjoy corporate singing, it's not some weird minority thing.
[ 27. February 2014, 16:33: Message edited by: Jade Constable ]
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure there will be plenty of men on the ship who will pop along within half an hour and tell us that they love singing.
It's just that the men who are outside our church services Don't.
They find it embarrassing. Or so they say.
I can't sing. My voice is almost never anywhere near the correct pitch. I find even the thought of singing in public acutely embarrassing, with the result that I never attempt to do so. I am fully aware that the noise that comes out of my mouth is not at all like the tune in my head.
And yet I sing at church.
I know I do it very badly, but I do the best I can anyway, because it's not about me - it's about God. And in truth, I'm marginally less bad now than I was a decade ago - maybe by the time I retire, I'll get the occasional note in tune.
I will, however, do almost anything to avoid most of the modern oeuvre, because the music itself is bad.
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Ethne Alba
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# 5804
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Posted
Corporate/ communal/ altogether sung worship, properly done is usually no problem to even the most hardened Anti Singers. And I would define Good Worship as exactly that: worship that is led and directed, that enables the congregation to feel safe in singing and safe also in learning how to worship God through song.
Dreadfully executed leading, of 'unknown to lots of the congregation' hymn/ song singing....is...a challenge. To anyone!
I suppose that if new folk feel that they are beginning to 'Belong' to the family that is church, then everyone approaches this with a We're All In It Together manner. And it's OK.
Worship. Odd word. Google the name of my city and the word worship and there are lists of football songs and comments about the teams!
Do we assume that people "get" worship, like the measles? By being in close proximity to it? Or is it taught? Or both? Genuinely interested....
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South Coast Kevin
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# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
But yes, I do think that singing is essential, at least for the main Sunday service. I'm surprised you don't think it's essential SCK, since 'singing hymns and spiritual songs' is one of the few features of NT church worship we know about.
My hobby horse when it comes to church services is that the New Testament pattern is 'one another' this and 'one another' that, rather than sitting and joining in with what the professionals / experts / ordained people are doing up the front. I'm much less dogmatic about the precise content of church services although, yes, singing songs ('to one another' IIRC) is mentioned in the NT.
Why do we meet together as church? IMO the NT says it's to encourage, challenge and support one another, to bring God's message to one another. Songs are certainly one way of doing that but in a culture where ever fewer people are familiar and comfortable with corporate singing, maybe they're not a very good way.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I am surprised that singing puts so many people off - for me, singing is a big reason to go to church. Even if the hymns aren't much good, there's always singing the Mass.
Think about it, though - for how many people is group singing a significant part of their lives? For the UK, I can only think of people who regularly watch live football (some other sports too?) and who attend or perform at live music events. Singing together is not a mainstream activity like maybe it used to be 100 or whatever years ago. So ISTM, anyhow.
But that's the whole reason why singing at church is a draw, because you don't get to do it otherwise unless you're in a community choir or the like.
As for men being embarrassed by singing, I think the problem there is with the men and not the church! I think they need to get over themselves, to be honest. It's not about them, it's about God. I am always astonished by the fragility of the male ego!
Yeah, but they're not going to "get over themselves"; they're just going to absent themselves, as they currently do.
The most fervent singing hater I know is female, anyway.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
That may well be true, but not necessarily a reason for not singing in worship. Karl's place sings part of the Mass
Well, a few do. Most don't.
We use a lot of music. More than most, probably, as a proportion of the service. But singing is not generally a part of it. We did some live music with congregational singing (we're not actually agin' it) when we took the service to Greenbelt; only time I've ever played electric guitar in a church setting and not been asked to (a) make it sound more like an acoustic, (b) turn off the distortion and (c) just play the chords*.
*Hezekiah 13:9 - Neither shalt thy electric guitarist play in a rock style; yeah, he shall not overdrive the pre-amp; nor shall he use a blues scale. Extemporised lead play is right out. Play the chords shall he, and no more.
[ 28. February 2014, 08:32: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
I'm rather of the opinion that making simple generalisations of the basis of gender does not enhance the discussion (tempting though it might seem). If everyone could refrain, it would be much appreciated...
dj_ordinaire, Eccles host - in semi-official capacity
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
*Hezekiah 13:9 - Neither shalt thy electric guitarist play in a rock style; yeah, he shall not overdrive the pre-amp; nor shall he use a blues scale. Extemporised lead play is right out. Play the chords shall he, and no more.
Sorry for the content-free post but I thought this deserved a ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
I'm rather of the opinion that making simple generalisations of the basis of gender does not enhance the discussion (tempting though it might seem). If everyone could refrain, it would be much appreciated...
dj_ordinaire, Eccles host - in semi-official capacity
Semi official... if you tell me to, I won't pursue this any further, but I think there is a physical sex difference at work here that's worth commenting on (rather than a crude gender generalization). Most men experienced their voices 'breaking' when they were young and insecure. Breaking being a pretty evocative term for what happens to your singing voice, you lose the ability to sing well during what is a sharp and sudden transition. Most women, on the other hand, experienced their voice gradually maturing, maybe slowly shifting down in pitch, maybe just becoming fuller. Whatever happened, it was smooth and gradual and they could adjust to it slowly.
I'm pretty sure this is why a lot of men don't like singing: they would have to relearn how to use their voice after it broke on them. Some do this, but most don't. If women learnt as girls, though, they never had to relearn.
Of course, there are plenty of other reasons people might be uncomfortable singing that might afflict a woman, or she might be one of the few that experienced something like a break as a (pre-)teen. There are also plenty of men who put the work in, or who have a bad enough ear to not realize how off they are, and sing with gusto.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
(Keeping it strictly gender neutral, I hope...)
The OP asked if there was mileage in having a various congregations making up one church?
I'd love to hear of churches who have various distinctive congregations, making up one whole church (ie people who only go to one of a number of services on offer)
Does it work?
How did you help this to work?
And the other question was if there were any experience of a bridge between unchurched and churched congregations?
Clarification: Does this mean? Exactly?
Cheers
(...mumbling...not understanding completely...feeling daft....thankU for being patient..)
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
(Keeping it strictly gender neutral, I hope...)
The OP asked if there was mileage in having a various congregations making up one church?
I'd love to hear of churches who have various distinctive congregations, making up one whole church (ie people who only go to one of a number of services on offer)
Does it work?
How did you help this to work?
And the other question was if there were any experience of a bridge between unchurched and churched congregations?
Clarification: Does this mean? Exactly?
Cheers
(...mumbling...not understanding completely...feeling daft....thankU for being patient..)
Thank you for your input here, it's very valuable, including this question.
I'm wondering whether there is a way of those who are 'churched' - by this I mean those who were brought up to attend church, albeit infrequently, and who are comfortable with the Bible, the language of Christianity and the liturgy, the way church services are conducted, the way the church of whichever denomination is organised, and how the congregation, choir etc fit into that - becoming reconciled with those who are 'unchurched' but who are Christians in the sense that they believe in God and try their best to follow Christ.
The latter might never darken the door of a church, they might drop in when it's empty to sit in silence, they might join in with midweek events like mothers and toddlers groups or social groups which may include prayers and Bible stories and readings, they might go to a 'fresh expression' of church, but they would be unlikely to attend a Sunday service for one reason or another.
[ 28. February 2014, 16:01: Message edited by: Raptor Eye ]
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I think the connections between 'churched' and 'unchurched' Christians might be maintained via a continued and a better informed sense of 'vicarious religion', i.e. the notion that religious tasks should be formed by some on behalf of others.
Vicariousness has a long pedigree in Christianity, of course, in the sense that we divide believers into laity and clergy, with the latter paid to specialise in religious duties, reflection and study on behalf of the rest. We now seem to have divided the laity into two (or more) groups as well. As I say, if this is how things must be, then I think churchgoers need to be more aware of their role. Non-churchgoing Christians might feel better understood as a result. Perhaps.
[ 28. February 2014, 17:38: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Roselyn
Shipmate
# 17859
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Posted
Who is going to Sunday Assembly events; these are imitation church services without religion. They seem to have group singing, non-sermons, quiet times. tea and cakes etc. Are these the never churched? the culturally churched non-believers or who??
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Roselyn:
Who is going to Sunday Assembly events; these are imitation church services without religion. They seem to have group singing, non-sermons, quiet times. tea and cakes etc. Are these the never churched? the culturally churched non-believers or who??
Our very own Simon Jenkins blogged about this a while ago
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
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Roselyn
Shipmate
# 17859
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Posted
Does the existence of this mob throw much light on the bridges question? quo vardis and all that??
Posts: 98 | From: gold coast gld australia | Registered: Oct 2013
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
The question is, without a 'Billy Graham' type of crusade, how are 'the unchurched' going to take the first steps of faith? Was he a bridge of his time, that couldn't be built today? After all, those he reached were already enculturated into the Christian faith through schools etc.
I think the main way the 'unchurched' will become favourable towards Christianity is by seeing Christians do good things (remarkably good things, above and beyond the 'regular' good that many non-Christians do) and asking us about the motivation behind our goodness. [/QB]
A frequent message, especially among those who desperately want to evangelise but are aware of the problems of traditional forms. People like me.
But I've sought an answer to one question, and never been given one, perhaps you can. The question is...Just what are the good things that CHristians do above and beyond the regular good things that many non-Christians do? Because I can't think of a one.
John
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Roselyn
Shipmate
# 17859
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Posted
Just what are the good things that CHristians do above and beyond the regular good things that many non-Christians do? Because I can't think of a one.
John [/QB][/QUOTE]
Don't think it's about the things done, being happy when others are doing good things too is probably a start; engaging in conversation when asked why you are doing something, might be useful; it gives God a chance to be a relationship between you and others...part of a process not an end in itself and, for some of us, relatively easy to get going
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
John. We had it in the readings ar church lasr week (Matthew 5-7) : do exactly the same good things everybody else does, but do them to your enemies too. That IMHO is usually the thing that makes onlookers sit up and take notice.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Roselyn:
Just what are the good things that CHristians do above and beyond the regular good things that many non-Christians do? Because I can't think of a one.
John
Don't think it's about the things done, being happy when others are doing good things too is probably a start; engaging in conversation when asked why you are doing something, might be useful; it gives God a chance to be a relationship between you and others...part of a process not an end in itself and, for some of us, relatively easy to get going [/QB][/QUOTE]
And none of that, good as it is, is distinctively Christian, at least where I am.
AS for not being about things done, things done was what was cited as the key in the post from which I quoted, and to which I was responding.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
John. We had it in the readings ar church lasr week (Matthew 5-7) : do exactly the same good things everybody else does, but do them to your enemies too. That IMHO is usually the thing that makes onlookers sit up and take notice.
Nice thought. But I really don't have any enemies; nor do most of the Christians I know.
And the only kind of behaviour seen in public is going to be the same towards enemies as towards friends, regardless of whether "I" am a CHristian or an atheist or whatever.
You see, IMO, the expected standards of behaviour in western society reflect the Christian ones -- we won, so to speak, at least in terms of what is expected. Good behaviour today for everyone is the same as good CHristian behaviour not because it is Christian, but because everyone else has decided to go along with it.
Which leaves me again with the question I asked, and to which I hope (when the time is propitious, which it is not now in the UK), there will be a response.
John
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
John. We had it in the readings ar church lasr week (Matthew 5-7) : do exactly the same good things everybody else does, but do them to your enemies too. That IMHO is usually the thing that makes onlookers sit up and take notice.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Things that have been known to work are things like Street Pastors. But those street pastors have to be there to support the people in the street, and not to evangelise. When the whole focus is on support then the party-goers can come back to find out why they were helped.
In the middle of dealing with the group of 15-16 year old boys with learning difficulties and behaviour to match, who were being real pains, one of them quietly asked me how I kept working with them and smiling, and I somewhat grimly said "prayer", which did garner some conversation later.
But for the local CofE church the ...
- Credit Union meeting in the church building prevented some people coming in and moved to the library - still the same church volunteers running it,
- second-hand bookstall takes 3 or 4 times the money when it's set up outside the church, not inside
... this is a church that acts as a concert venue, hosts the horticultural show, runs an annual tree festival.
People are really resistant to coming into churches. I suspect they expect to be preached at. Really not helped by the Elim Church setting up a stall outside this CofE church where it runs on the High Street, (entrance and outside space is round the corner on a side street) street preaching and handing out tracts. And the moron who does it won't accept attendance at another church as a reason not to thrust leaflets in hands, because you're not "born again".
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
Which leaves me again with the question I asked, and to which I hope (when the time is propitious, which it is not now in the UK), there will be a response.
Yeah, really good question, John. As folks have said, doing good deeds without favouring those we like and get along with is important but, as you have said, there are plenty of non-Christians who do this too.
For those who believe in the miraculous / supernatural, I guess we would seek to ally our good deeds with demonstrations of God's power. I'm thinking in particular of prophecy - so when we're talking with people we try to remain open to God's prompting and to speak into the person's situation, in a way that is beyond human intuition and empathy. Also prayer for healing, and other miraculous works.
But also I do think there is (or at least can be) something unique in the way Christians do our good works (i.e. it's not necessarily that Christians do different things). If there really is something in this faith we hold to, then as we are enlivened by the Holy Spirit there should be something noticeably different about how we go about our lives. People should see Jesus in us and in our church communities - quoting from memory 'People will know you are my followers because of your love for one another'.
I realise this isn't exactly a compelling answer! Maybe others can chip in because I do think it's an important and difficult question. What difference does God being with and in us really make?
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Yeah, really good question, John. As folks have said, doing good deeds without favouring those we like and get along with is important but, as you have said, there are plenty of non-Christians who do this too.
For those who believe in the miraculous / supernatural, I guess we would seek to ally our good deeds with demonstrations of God's power. I'm thinking in particular of prophecy - so when we're talking with people we try to remain open to God's prompting and to speak into the person's situation, in a way that is beyond human intuition and empathy. Also prayer for healing, and other miraculous works.
But also I do think there is (or at least can be) something unique in the way Christians do our good works (i.e. it's not necessarily that Christians do different things). If there really is something in this faith we hold to, then as we are enlivened by the Holy Spirit there should be something noticeably different about how we go about our lives. People should see Jesus in us and in our church communities - quoting from memory 'People will know you are my followers because of your love for one another'.
I realise this isn't exactly a compelling answer! Maybe others can chip in because I do think it's an important and difficult question. What difference does God being with and in us really make?
I agree that it's a good question, and one I've been thinking about in the context of this thread. Where there are non-churching-going Christians as well as those within church communities, alongside people of other faiths and none, involved in voluntary work, nothing will set Christians apart unless they demonstrate a different attitude from others, particularly toward other people.
Compassion may be roused naturally toward some people, but others are seen as threats or rivals. Who are we kind to? Who are we warm towards? I've noticed that I feel loved and welcome when with some groups of Christians within the church, while others seem to tolerate me at best. Why is this, if we are aiming at loving others as ourselves, being salt and light to all people? 'See those Christians, how they love one another' would perhaps be the greatest bridge of all. Before we reach out, perhaps we should reach in.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I don't think that longing for Christians to be a whole lot more caring and sharing than everyone else is going to get us very far.
I'm not a Christian because I think it makes me behave better than everyone who isn't, but because I know that I'm a sinner and Jesus offers to accept me in spite of that. I praise and magnify him in return for what he's done for me, and what I can see he's done for other people. But that doesn't mean we've all become so much nicer. The process of behavioural transformation should be lifelong, but I don't think it's at the heart of Christianity.
Now, most people in our culture don't really think of themselves as sinners. For some people 'Christian' is mostly a euphemism for 'decent'. If you already perceive yourself to be a perfectly decent person then you might well feel that God should be happy with that, and that any further expression of religiosity is overkill.
This explains why some of the evangelists of old often found it more satisfying to work with people whose sins were obvious for all to see, rather than with people whose respectability made them indignant at the idea that they had any need of forgiveness.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I think there's a lot in that, SvitlanaV2. We've largely lost our sense of personal 'sin' and see it either in collective terms (which it can also be of course) or else something that person over there does and not me ...
Meanwhile ...
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
My hobby horse when it comes to church services is that the New Testament pattern is 'one another' this and 'one another' that, rather than sitting and joining in with what the professionals / experts / ordained people are doing up the front. I'm much less dogmatic about the precise content of church services although, yes, singing songs ('to one another' IIRC) is mentioned in the NT.
Why do we meet together as church? IMO the NT says it's to encourage, challenge and support one another, to bring God's message to one another. Songs are certainly one way of doing that but in a culture where ever fewer people are familiar and comfortable with corporate singing, maybe they're not a very good way. [/QB][/QUOTE]
And my hobby-horse is to say that the apostle Paul was simply trying to regulate a multiplicity of competing contributions and people chipping in with far too much stuff ...
On one reading, you can hear the exasperation in his voice ...
'When you come together EACH of you has a ... a ... a ...'
For goodness sake, he's saying. Cool it down. Let everything be done decently and in order.
Church meetings/services of whatever kind are never - in and of themselves - going to meet all eventualities and allow every single person to have their say. We'd be there all day long if we were going to do that.
I'd suggest that there are other contexts for that - if it's what we want to do - small groups, Bible studies etc. If people are sufficiently interested they'll seek these things out.
I'm still struggling with this 'bring God's message to one another' thing. What does that involve? God's message is Jesus Christ. We receive him in the word and in the sacrament.
We can see him in each and every person we meet, if we have eyes to see that is ...
'I tell you the truth, inasmuch as you did it to the least of these ... you did it to me ...'
I agree with John Holding that what is generally reckoned to be good and acceptable behaviour has been derived from Christian ethics. If we want to make gestures and do good works above and beyond that entry-level if you like - then let's get on and do them.
Church services may help to focus and motivate us for that but this isn't guaranteed - however we 'do' church - whether in a Fresh Expressions type way or as an RC High Mass or in Quaker silence.
What we can do, though, is develop some kind of disciplined lifestyle that includes prayer, praise, almsgiving, helping people etc etc
I really don't know what we can do to adjust/adapt our services and modus operandi to make our meetings/services more accessible to outsiders. I really can't see how we can that without either:
- Upsetting the 'regulars' in some way (which might be a good thing).
- Pitching things at so general a level that they miss the mark.
- End up reinventing the wheel every 5 minutes.
I used to belong to a church which stopped meeting on a Sunday for a while. The idea was that we used that time to build 'warm contacts' with non-church people who we could then invite to mid-week meetings.
It didn't work. People stayed in bed or watched the telly or accompanied their kids on sporting activities.
The church shrank.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
That thing about not meeting on Sundays sounds badly thought through. The local Vineyard church does something similar, but only on the 4th Sunday of each month. This sounds more manageable, and it doesn't break people's churchgoing habit. But these things do require an element of trial and error, I imagine.
I think we do need some (indeed, probably more) churches that are always on the lookout for new ways of being. They serve as a testing ground. If their ideas fail, well, the number of people involved probably wasn't too large anyway, and if they succeed, their ideas might be quietly adopted (and adapted) by the more established and cautious religious institutions. Both/and, either/or, as you like to say.
This is how it should work, at all events. But perhaps you see all of this variety as a breeding ground for secularisation, because it turns people into religious consumers who expect to have their needs catered to at every turn or else they're off.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I don't think that longing for Christians to be a whole lot more caring and sharing than everyone else is going to get us very far.
I'm not a Christian because I think it makes me behave better than everyone who isn't, but because I know that I'm a sinner and Jesus offers to accept me in spite of that. I praise and magnify him in return for what he's done for me, and what I can see he's done for other people. But that doesn't mean we've all become so much nicer. The process of behavioural transformation should be lifelong, but I don't think it's at the heart of Christianity.
I'm not a Christian because I think it makes me behave better than everyone else, either. Nor am I a Christian because I know I'm a sinner and Jesus offers to accept me in spite of that. Neither is at the heart of Christianity imv.
The love of the God who so loved the word that he sent us Jesus to show us the way (which includes forgiveness and transformation) and the Holy Spirit who guides and invigorates us in faith, is at the heart of Christianity. Our response to this love comes through in our love for God and for each other. This should be in evidence and growing imv, particularly within the organised churches, for newcomers and everyone to see, as the foundations for the bridges that need to be built.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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