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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hell: Be afraid, "Islamic State"
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
What faith is that mate?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Firenze
Quite right! Sorry, Betjeman!
I don't know what either of these men thought about Islam, or about Muslims.
[ 25. August 2014, 20:47: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Well, perhaps that's what it will take. A mindset that matches theirs rather than a mindset that is weaker than theirs and has no answers anyway.
Ultimately, I agree, it would take as such .
However I also agree with other posters who say doomwatch scenarios like yours will produce very few winners .
OK the extremists might all wind up dead , which is their cherished wish . Alongside them will many more times people like you, me and our families who just happen to be in the way.
As for 'answers' to violence and oppression in the
Middle East or other places in the world, past present and future ?
A single answer doesn't exist. If it did 10,000 years of human civilisation would have discovered it by now.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I pray for your deliverance now deano, but if not, it will happen after you die, with James Foley and his killer.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
The answer rolyn, is peace. Now.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gildas:
The thing is that Muslims, AFAICS, fall into three categories:
Firstly there are the Muslims who have no intention of murdering Deano, You may say that they are a little bit lax. I could not possibly comment. But there they are, and there are probably millions of them.
Then there are the ones who believe that, in theory, Deano ought to be killed. He is after all an infidel who does not pay the salient taxes and one must never discount the power of pure irritation. Nonetheless the Muslims in this category, whilst sagely agreeing that Deano's life is forfeit, are probably not going to do very much about it. I suspect that this category are outnumbered by category one but I have other things to do with my life than seek out Muslims who hold that Eldrad, sorry, Deano must live!
Finally you have actual Muslims who are conspiring to make an end of Deano. I suspect that these are rare but you never know your luck and if he ceases to post on the Ship for any length of time we can chalk one up to the medieval headchoppers for Mohammed. As The Blessed Freddy Mercury (PBUH) observed: Ebrahiem, Ebrahiem, Ebrahiem, Allah, Allah, Allah Will pray for you...Hey!
In any event, this means that any rational soul will want to dial down the bellicosity because once we realise that the difficulties in the Middle East do not revolve around Deano and that "Whack Deano" comes about 743rd on Al Quaeda's "to do" list. We can start treating Radical Islam as a problem which requires a rational solution and not an opportunity for wetting our pants and screaming for our mummy. I realise that this will require Deano to stop treating things as an opportunity for self-dramatisation but, hey, ess-aitch-one-tee happens.
Very good. But I'm wondering why we're not talking about the people of other faiths, or indeed no faith at all, who have a desire to wipe deano from the face of the Earth.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gildas:
The thing is that Muslims, AFAICS, fall into three categories:
Firstly there are the Muslims who have no intention of murdering Deano, You may say that they are a little bit lax. I could not possibly comment. But there they are, and there are probably millions of them.
Then there are the ones who believe that, in theory, Deano ought to be killed. He is after all an infidel who does not pay the salient taxes and one must never discount the power of pure irritation. Nonetheless the Muslims in this category, whilst sagely agreeing that Deano's life is forfeit, are probably not going to do very much about it. I suspect that this category are outnumbered by category one but I have other things to do with my life than seek out Muslims who hold that Eldrad, sorry, Deano must live!
Finally you have actual Muslims who are conspiring to make an end of Deano. I suspect that these are rare but you never know your luck and if he ceases to post on the Ship for any length of time we can chalk one up to the medieval headchoppers for Mohammed. As The Blessed Freddy Mercury (PBUH) observed: Ebrahiem, Ebrahiem, Ebrahiem, Allah, Allah, Allah Will pray for you...Hey!
In any event, this means that any rational soul will want to dial down the bellicosity because once we realise that the difficulties in the Middle East do not revolve around Deano and that "Whack Deano" comes about 743rd on Al Quaeda's "to do" list. We can start treating Radical Islam as a problem which requires a rational solution and not an opportunity for wetting our pants and screaming for our mummy. I realise that this will require Deano to stop treating things as an opportunity for self-dramatisation but, hey, ess-aitch-one-tee happens.
Oh what a clever, smart post.
I do wonder, what would the families of those who died on 911, in the London tube bombings, Madrid, and those relatives of Daniel Pearl, James Foley, Jennifer Lynne Matthews, Kenneth Clodfelter and countless others who have died at the hands of jihadis, make of your oh so smart post. I bet they would appreciate the delicate wit contained within it.
I on the other hand just think you are a coward with no regard for the victims of jihadis, only for the victims of western retribution for those deaths.
[ 25. August 2014, 23:05: Message edited by: deano ]
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
Does this mean we're not going to get any details about that time you attacked someone and put him in the hospital with a fractured skull?
I was hoping you could make it sound more impressive. As it is, it hardly compares to that time when I killed a man in Reno, just to watch him die.
Oh you want detail. Okay....
Two of the schools biggest bullies sat down one either side one wet lunchtime. We had bays and I was sat in an end one which backed up to a brick wall. My back was to the wall. i was reading a physics text book.
As I say they sat down next to me. They started to take the piss and try to grab the book. I knew what was going to happen because I'd seen it before and suffered it before.
I stuffed the text book back in my bag, which had other books in as well. It was a sports style bag. I grabbed the handles and swung it up as hard and fast as I could into the guy on my lefts face. His head was slammed back into the wall and he fell face forwards. He was out for twenty seconds or so. The other guy legged it. I walked away.
The next thing I knew was a note coming round saying xxxx had been taken to hospital with a possible fractured skull.
How ... disappointing. Previously, you had put someone in the hospital with a fractured skull. Now you were in a childish scuffle in which you apparently accidentally bumped your playmate's head against a wall, resulting in "a note coming around" (whatever that means.) In a day or two, perhaps it will further evaporate into "a really serious bruise, let me tell you!"
If you can't tell us that you then went round to his house and killed all his family and their pets, why should any of us take your threats at all seriously? What are you, some kind of a coward?
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I do wonder, what would the families of those who died on 911, in the London tube bombings, Madrid, and those relatives of Daniel Pearl, James Foley, Jennifer Lynne Matthews, Kenneth Clodfelter and countless others who have died at the hands of jihadis, make of your oh so smart post. I bet they would appreciate the delicate wit contained within it.
How many members of those people's families have advocated dropping a nuke in the Middle East?
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
A good deal of the people functionally involved in the implementation of the one- and- only nuke strike later spent a large part of their lives publicly despairing that they had gone near the damn thing at all. It's real easy to crow about using it when you know it's locked up tight, either by physical distance or political impossibility. I'm looking at you, every US President who made silly postures about using the bomb, which is pretty much every President since Truman.
The people actually saddled with carrying out the order did. Not. Find. It. Fun.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Laud-able
Ship's Ancient
# 9896
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Posted
At a tangent:
Kelly Alves writes of the nuclear bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki:
quote:
The people actually saddled with carrying out the order did. Not. Find. It. Fun.
This view is somewhat misleading. Some of the people involved were certainly haunted by the bombing, but there were others who were not.
Notably Paul Tibbets Jnr (d. 2007), pilot of Enola Gay (named for his mother); Charles Sweeney (d. 2004), pilot of Bockscar; Theodore Van Kirk (d. 28 July 2014) navigator of Enola Gay; and Thomas Ferebee (d. 2000) bombardier of Enola Gay, all died supporting the rightness of what they had done.
I was four years old when the war broke out. We were given a half-holiday when Italy capitulated; we thankfully celebrated VE Day; but at the surrender of the Japanese – hated and reviled in Australia for long after the war – we danced in the streets.
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'. . . "Non Angli, sed Angeli" "not Angels, but Anglicans"', Sellar, W C, and Yeatman, R J, 1066 and All That, London, 1930, p. 6.
Posts: 279 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Jul 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
First off, you'll note I didn't say " all." I am aware opinion is divided.
Second, if you fast forward to about 2:00 Here you'll see evidence if co- pilot Captain Robert Lewis's jubilation over the Hiroshima strike. On second thought, start from the beginning, it sets up what people pretty much didn't know they were rejoicing about.
And while I am sure a lot of people sincerely think the strike was the right think to do, I doubt you'll find anyone saying that they never had a minute's trouble with the aftermath.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Laud-able
Ship's Ancient
# 9896
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Posted
Again, I must beg to differ.
A week from today on 2 September we remember the New Guinea Martyrs.
My parish church supported the Anglican Mission from its inception in 1891. As a child I knew that my Sunday School pennies went to support ‘our missionary’ (we continue to support the autonomous Church of Papua New Guinea to this day}.
The Japanese murdered more than three hundred missionaries in New Guinea: they did not even care to spare their German allies.
I do assure you that I and others of my generation have never had a minute's trouble with the aftermath of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
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'. . . "Non Angli, sed Angeli" "not Angels, but Anglicans"', Sellar, W C, and Yeatman, R J, 1066 and All That, London, 1930, p. 6.
Posts: 279 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Jul 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
And since you do did not say" all, I will agree with you. We could both probably find equal numbers of sources to prove our points.
WWII a nightmare of various people dehumanizing others: Americans calling the Japanese "yellow monkeys" and punishing US citizens for thing people a half a world away were doing. Japanese brutalizing Koreans and POWs as they were subhuman, Germans demonizing Jews, Russians demonizing Jews-- the war brought out the best and worst in everybody. But the running theme of trouble seems to be finding excuses to dehumanize. Most of the guys responsible for Nanking were probably off fighting in Manchuria when the bombs hit, the people back home were noncoms, civilians, Korean slaves-- truman himself reported the first casualties as about 3500 soldiers. He didn't mention the 300,000 non soldiers.
Which leads back to what deano is saying-- when do we stop giving ourselves that excuse to dehumanize? How did the Japanese army talk themselves into thinking Nanking was ok, how did the Russians talk themselves into thinking the brutalization of the town of Berlin was OK? How do we decide that leveling Tehran-- including the marketplaces and the schools and the freaking goat herders that never had anything to donwith terrorism-- is justified?
I say " we" because every nation has done it, and we are piss poor at repenting of it.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Boris Johnson says the people who go to Syria and Iraq should be considered guitly of terrorism until proven innocent.
The Guardian
This is starting to remind me of Iraq 2003, only with less skepticism from the global community.
Short of the couple of dozen who've declared themselves as jihadists in Syria and Iraq, and probably a few more dozen that MI6 and Co have IDed, how exactly are passport control meant to ascertain that, given that these are British citizens with British passports? I can just imagine the conversation:
"Go anywhere nice for your holidays, sir?"
"Yeah, I spent the summer fighting for the Caliphate against infidels and apostates."
Can't imagine it somehow...
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
And, as I said earlier, some British Kurds are going out to fight with the peshmerga - are they going to be treated as guilty? Or are they sufficiently good guys? Then how about somebody fighting with the Shia militias against IS - they're kind of curate's egg right now, good in parts.
[ 26. August 2014, 08:56: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Boris Johnson says the people who go to Syria and Iraq should be considered guitly of terrorism until proven innocent.
The Guardian
This is starting to remind me of Iraq 2003, only with less skepticism from the global community.
Short of the couple of dozen who've declared themselves as jihadists in Syria and Iraq, and probably a few more dozen that MI6 and Co have IDed, how exactly are passport control meant to ascertain that, given that these are British citizens with British passports? I can just imagine the conversation:
"Go anywhere nice for your holidays, sir?"
"Yeah, I spent the summer fighting for the Caliphate against infidels and apostates."
Can't imagine it somehow...
Le them go. Just don't let them come back.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by Deano:
quote:
I do wonder, what would the families of those who died on 911, in the London tube bombings, Madrid, and those relatives of Daniel Pearl, James Foley, Jennifer Lynne Matthews, Kenneth Clodfelter and countless others who have died at the hands of jihadis, make of your oh so smart post. I bet they would appreciate the delicate wit contained within it.
They, dear heart, are actual victims of Islamist violence. You, on the other hand, are just a cry-baby with a modem.
quote:
I on the other hand just think you are a coward with no regard for the victims of jihadis, only for the victims of western retribution for those deaths.
Courage, Grasshopper, lies in learning not to wet one's bed. Blaming the Islamists for making your Action Man pyjamas smell of wee is not an adequate substitute.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Let them go. Just don't let them come back.
And then what? I find the logic of this mystifying (and you're not the only person to propose this), because surely allowing them back also allows you to prosecute them.
I've no doubt that most countries' legal systems allow them to create offences for their own citizens - you must not go elsewhere and engage in child sex tourism, you must not go elsewhere and sign up to a terrorism organisation we have banned, etc etc.
But to successfully prosecute those offences you have to get them back in your own country.
The notion of permanently excluding people from where they've been is just going to backfire. It's not going to stop most of them from going. It'll just be a positive insistence on our part that they commit to the terrorist cause fully and permanently. To describe that as counterproductive is an understatement.
[ 26. August 2014, 09:59: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
It also says that no-one can be rehabilitated. Well, the TV is full of ex-jihadists, who seem to be giving very useful insights into jihadism, and how it develops in Brits.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Boris Johnson says the people who go to Syria and Iraq should be considered guitly of terrorism until proven innocent.
The Guardian
This is starting to remind me of Iraq 2003, only with less skepticism from the global community.
Short of the couple of dozen who've declared themselves as jihadists in Syria and Iraq, and probably a few more dozen that MI6 and Co have IDed, how exactly are passport control meant to ascertain that, given that these are British citizens with British passports? I can just imagine the conversation:
"Go anywhere nice for your holidays, sir?"
"Yeah, I spent the summer fighting for the Caliphate against infidels and apostates."
Can't imagine it somehow...
Le them go. Just don't let them come back.
That doesn't answer my question: how do you know they've been? I mean, my secretary has just come back from a holiday in Bodrum, Turkey - at least that's what she's told me....
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
That's very troubling Laud-able.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
What is?
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
It also says that no-one can be rehabilitated. Well, the TV is full of ex-jihadists, who seem to be giving very useful insights into jihadism, and how it develops in Brits.
I believe in rehabilitation. Nevertheless, I'd much rather a jihadist was over there than over here.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
And you still haven't answered the question: how are you going to stop them coming back?
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Matt wrote:
quote:
That doesn't answer my question: how do you know they've been? I mean, my secretary has just come back from a holiday in Bodrum, Turkey - at least that's what she's told me....
My guess would be that Johnson assumed that anyone entering Iraq or Syria would have their passport stamped to indicate they entered the country.
That would have been my default assumption as well, as I'm pretty sure my passport gets stamped by the Republic Of Korea every time I enter.
Mind you, I think there are some countries that don't stamp(I've been told the DPRK doesn't, at least not for westerners), presumbaly because the governments know a visit there is likely to be controversial.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
And you still haven't answered the question: how are you going to stop them coming back?
If there's credible evidence that they have been involved in jihadist activities you stop them coming back. That is what border control is for. The geezer who checks the passports has them detained and they are sent back to Iraq or Syria or wherever it is they came from.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
And you still haven't answered the question: how are you going to stop them coming back?
If there's credible evidence that they have been involved in jihadist activities you stop them coming back. That is what border control is for. The geezer who checks the passports has them detained and they are sent back to Iraq or Syria or wherever it is they came from.
Are governments ever allowed to refuse admission to their own citizens? I know they can put them on trial for what they did overseas, but I'm not aware of them having the right to disallow them from entering.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
That creates a whole host of problems:
1. You're relying on the spooks' intelligence which will at best only cover a fraction of the jihadists.
2. It'll be a human rights nightmare; you'd have to clear that particular hurdle before 'sending them back' anywhere.
3. The country that is their point of origin has to be willing to accept them. This is unlikely to be Iraq or Syria themselves but more likely somewhere like Turkey or Jordan who would be well within their rights to say, "Er...these are UK citizens: why the hell should we have them?"
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
And they aren't necessarily going to be crossing borders at recognised points equipped with nice rubber stamps - after all, the supposed new state doesn't recognise borders.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Yes, one route into Syria is via Turkey, which has left an open border for a long while so that rebels could get into Syria without hindrance. So you will just have a Turkish stamp in your passport. Of course, Turkey is now reconsidering this position.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Hence my comment about my secretary - should I tip off UK Border Control just to be on the safe side?
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
If the UK refused to allow UK nationals to return to the UK it would be in violation of the UN Declaration on Human Rights, to which it is a signatory, and would (no doubt) get a certain amount of grief from the European Court of Human Rights. Denying one's nationals citizenship if they went abroad to an unfavoured country was one of the practices of the bad old Soviet Bloc and tended to be deplored by the UK back in the day. Of course, the Intelligence Services ought to keep tabs on UK nationals who travel to Syria or Iraq but a UK national of Syrian descent who returns home to attend the deathbed of an aged relative ought not to have to appear before the beak to demonstrate that they were not, in fact, engaged in the overthrow of Bashir Assad (which was, ISTR, UK government policy, fleetingly, last year) in order to retain their citizenship. In any event, a UK national entering Syria or Iraq in order to overthrow the government is hardly likely to go through Immigration in the usual way.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
And you still haven't answered the question: how are you going to stop them coming back?
If there's credible evidence that they have been involved in jihadist activities you stop them coming back. That is what border control is for. The geezer who checks the passports has them detained and they are sent back to Iraq or Syria or wherever it is they came from.
I still haven't the foggiest idea why you would think sending them back to rejoin the jihad is preferable to prosecuting them. I mean, you're literally talking about turning them back at the border and saying "please go and rejoin the war".
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Their last sentence.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
OK, I get it know
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
"Now", even!
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
And you still haven't answered the question: how are you going to stop them coming back?
If there's credible evidence that they have been involved in jihadist activities you stop them coming back. That is what border control is for. The geezer who checks the passports has them detained and they are sent back to Iraq or Syria or wherever it is they came from.
I still haven't the foggiest idea why you would think sending them back to rejoin the jihad is preferable to prosecuting them. I mean, you're literally talking about turning them back at the border and saying "please go and rejoin the war".
Because as I said, I'd feel more comfortable with them over there than over here.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Christianity should be bloody uncomfortable.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
And you still haven't answered the question: how are you going to stop them coming back?
If there's credible evidence that they have been involved in jihadist activities you stop them coming back. That is what border control is for. The geezer who checks the passports has them detained and they are sent back to Iraq or Syria or wherever it is they came from.
I still haven't the foggiest idea why you would think sending them back to rejoin the jihad is preferable to prosecuting them. I mean, you're literally talking about turning them back at the border and saying "please go and rejoin the war".
Because as I said, I'd feel more comfortable with them over there than over here.
You'd feel more comfortable with them over there, freely plotting with their terrorist buddies, than over here in jail.
Wow. I can't remember the last time I read something THAT stupid. You make deano look like a genius. At least his over-the-top schemes involved getting rid of bad people, even if they did involve getting rid of millions of good people in the process.
Whereas your idea is to have credible evidence of being bad and specifically use it as grounds to send people back to be bad again.
Catch-and-release programs are meant to be applied to fish. Not murderers.
[ 26. August 2014, 22:48: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
Yeah! Like they'd stay prison. What planet are you on? It makes perfect sense if you ask me. I'd rather have a jihadist on the other side of the world than here.
[ 26. August 2014, 22:52: Message edited by: Ad Orientem ]
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Yeah! Like they'd stay prison. What planet are you on?
The same planet as Iraq and Syria. Yeah. Like they'd stay there and have absolutely no means of affecting you in your part of the world, because there's absolutely no way they couldn't aid and abet someone who wasn't on your list. What planet are YOU on?
Do you think that Osama bin Laden walked into New York and pushed over buildings himself?
[ 26. August 2014, 22:53: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
Eh? So, you'd rather have a terrorist living on your doorstep? You're weird.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Eh? So, you'd rather have a terrorist living on your doorstep? You're weird.
You're the one who wants a terrorist living free rather than in prison.
I repeat, do you think Osama bin Laden was thwarted by being refused entry into the United States?
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
You're the one who wants a terrorist living free rather than in prison.
I just don't want them in my country. Whether they are free or in prison, quite frankly, is irrelevant. But if you think they'd stay in prison for very long, well, keep on dreaming.
quote:
I repeat, do you think Osama bin Laden was thwarted by being refused entry into the United States?
Did he try?
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
For someone in Finland to tell someone in Australia that they think the important thing is that someone "isn't in their country" shows a breathtaking inability to grasp the interconnectedness of the modern world.
Did he try? The entire point, you silly fool, is that it wasn't necessary to try.
[ 26. August 2014, 23:31: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Given that terrorists located outside a country have a history of being able to affect that country, why on earth do you persist with the belief that sending someone away makes a difference?
Imprisonment means punishment, monitoring and prospects for rehabilitation. Your plan involves complete freedom, encouragement even, to plan and commit further crimes. Yet you seem to believe that so long as the planning happens a few thousand kilometres away that's fine and dandy.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
orfeo. Perfect.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Tukai
Shipmate
# 12960
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Let them go. Just don't let them come back.
And then what? I find the logic of this mystifying (and you're not the only person to propose this), because surely allowing them back also allows you to prosecute them.
I've no doubt that most countries' legal systems allow them to create offences for their own citizens - you must not go elsewhere and engage in child sex tourism, you must not go elsewhere and sign up to a terrorism organisation we have banned, etc etc.
But to successfully prosecute those offences you have to get them back in your own country.
The notion of permanently excluding people from where they've been is just going to backfire. It's not going to stop most of them from going. It'll just be a positive insistence on our part that they commit to the terrorist cause fully and permanently. To describe that as counterproductive is an understatement.
The current Australian Government (who are in all sorts of domestic unpopularity) are trying to increase their appeal to some voters by (a) suggesting Australia should get involved in military action against ISIS, and (b) toughening "anti-terror" laws, including requiring anyone who is returning to Australia from Iraq or Syria to demonstrate that they are NOT a terrorist. This last measure is nasty reversal of traditional burden of proof in Australian law, where you are presumed innocent until proven guilty - a "reverse onus of proof". It is especially unpopular with the numerous Australians who migrated from the Middle East and still visit their relatives there when it is peaceful enough to do so.
This cartoon by David Pope in the Canberra Times of 27 August is a beautiful reaction to this. It shows the former Prime Minister of Australia, John Howard who was so keen to to go "all the way with USA" that he got so close to George W Bush that Howard's head went right up Bush's backside, and Howard sent Australian troops to the Iraq War.
Note: if this link initially shows a different cartoon, simply move through the gallery to which the link points.
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A government that panders to the worst instincts of its people degrades the whole country for years to come.
Posts: 594 | From: Oz | Registered: Sep 2007
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