homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Ship's Locker   » Limbo   » Hell: Be afraid, "Islamic State" (Page 13)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  ...  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Hell: Be afraid, "Islamic State"
deano
princess
# 12063

 - Posted      Profile for deano   Email deano   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
But if you want to go all hypothetical, what if Christ is silent when we ask Him?

"Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you" was unclear?
Oh very clear. But I'm not that good at doing it. I prefer to hurt them very, very much.

But didn't Christ say we were all pretty shite at doing the right thing even if we knew what it was?

[ 03. September 2014, 19:16: Message edited by: deano ]

--------------------
"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot

Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

 - Posted      Profile for Sioni Sais   Email Sioni Sais   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
But if you want to go all hypothetical, what if Christ is silent when we ask Him?

"Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you" was unclear?
Oh very clear. But I'm not that good at doing it. I prefer to hurt them very, very much.

But didn't Christ say we were all pretty shite at doing the right thing even if we knew what it was?

He did just that, but it wasn't part of His "How to" guide.

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
No it was Paul.

Your honest confession of helplessness is a good start.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
But if you want to go all hypothetical, what if Christ is silent when we ask Him?

"Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you" was unclear?
Oh very clear. But I'm not that good at doing it. I prefer to hurt them very, very much.

But didn't Christ say we were all pretty shite at doing the right thing even if we knew what it was?

... no it was Paul.

That's me trying to repent in my befuddled way.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716

 - Posted      Profile for ChastMastr   Author's homepage   Email ChastMastr   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
But didn't Christ say we were all pretty shite at doing the right thing even if we knew what it was?

That.... doesn't mean.... we stop trying to do it!!!!!!! [brick wall] [brick wall] [brick wall]

--------------------
My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Until a just war comes along?

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Matt Black

Shipmate
# 2210

 - Posted      Profile for Matt Black   Email Matt Black   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
"Turn the other cheek" is all well and good (although difficult enough in practice IMO) when applied to oneself, but I'm not sure that the Sermon on the Mount gives me the right to force third parties to turn their cheeks when they are being persecuted; the text says "turn the other cheek", not "look the other way".

--------------------
"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
No Christian would do that.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716

 - Posted      Profile for ChastMastr   Author's homepage   Email ChastMastr   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Until a just war comes along?

No, even when that is happening, we need to conduct it according to certain rules, not stepping over various lines; such is my understanding, anyway.

--------------------
My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574

 - Posted      Profile for Ad Orientem     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I guess I'm a pacifist at heart, though not an absolute pacifist. Therefore I have much sympathy for Martin's view concerning war, even if I don't share his absolutism regarding it. I don't think the first Christians were pacifist by accident. They saw it clearly in the teachings of our Lord and as such, being faced with death, preferred martyrdom to wielding the sword. I also think that just war theory is by-and-large nothing more than a series of rationalisms. I do think it interesting though that in the Gospel according to St. Luke our Lord does not admonish the centurion who has so much faith for being a soldier. Are we able to read something into that? I don't know. Then there is the conundrum of how far a state, even a Christian one, can or should go in order to protect itself and its citizens. Again, I don't pretend to have an answer to that.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840

 - Posted      Profile for rolyn         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I'm reasonably OK that NATO are uniting to stamp out Islamic extremist terror and violence . I'm not happy that many service personnel and innocent bystanders will be killed or injured in the process.

Islam has much to offer a West that seems to be teetering on the verge of brokenness . Do it peacefully , do it by example and we'll all be the better for it.

--------------------
Change is the only certainty of existence

Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged
LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

 - Posted      Profile for LeRoc     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I think the only thing the West can do to end this cycle is to radically revise its relationship with the Middle East and the Islamic world. Starting by listening.

Listen to the Syrians, the Kurds, the sunnis who support ISIS, the people who are in the areas it controls ... What do they want? What solution do they see? Listen to Muslims in other countries, including our own. What way do they see out of this? And how can we behave to facilitate that?

--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292

 - Posted      Profile for Anglican't   Email Anglican't   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
But what if what they say is unpalatable to us?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

 - Posted      Profile for orfeo   Author's homepage   Email orfeo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
But what if what they say is unpalatable to us?

Rather reminds me of the Western enthusiasm for free and fair democratic elections in Palestine, right up until Hamas won.

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

 - Posted      Profile for quetzalcoatl   Email quetzalcoatl   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
But what if what they say is unpalatable to us?

Well, that covers a pretty wide field! Suppose Muslims in these countries say, please go back to your own countries, and leave us alone - well, fair enough.

Big problem though - they have lots of oil! Can we do a trade?

If they say, you are stinking kafir, and we are coming after you, not so good.

--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

 - Posted      Profile for LeRoc     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Anglican't: But what if what they say is unpalatable to us?
Is that how you enter a conversation?

I've had many conversations with Muslims, and most of them seem very reasonable to me. In fact, I have the feeling that when we refuse to listen to them, some of them become unreasonable. Starting out by expecting that what they'll say will be unpalatable to us creates a self-fulfilling prophecy. Just listen.

--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292

 - Posted      Profile for Anglican't   Email Anglican't   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Anglican't: But what if what they say is unpalatable to us?
Is that how you enter a conversation?

Well, no, but I've never started a conversation that is designed, ultimately, to end murderous hostility, which is what I understood you to be suggesting.

I've no objection to dialogue, but if the answer to the question 'what would you like?' is 'I'll only be satisfied once Israel is driven into the sea and a homosexual hangs from every lamp post' then, well, I'm not sure what any conversation is going to achieve.

Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

 - Posted      Profile for orfeo   Author's homepage   Email orfeo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
We are actually incredibly good at ignoring what people say they want, if we don't like the answers.

The one that always sticks with me is suicide terrorism, because of the seminar given by Robert Pape that I attended. Quite some years ago now, but it was so astoundingly insightful it stayed with me.

We are far too ready to say "they're crazy terrorists who just hate us and our way of life". In other words, to say that it isn't about anything specific we've done, it's just a general hatred and they'll pursue us no matter what, and now way are we going to give up our WAY OF LIFE to please them, dammit.

Except it's not true. Because many of the people that are supposed to hate us with a passion do not engage in suicide terrorism. You won't find a history of Iranians engaging in suicide terrorism.

What Pape found by looking at the hard data on suicide terrorism was that it occurred in campaigns - series of bombings - and that every campaign was linked with the presence of occupying forces in the location. Any time the occupying forces left, the bombing stopped. When France and the USA both had troops in Lebanon, and the French forces left, the bombing against French-associated targets stopped. The bombing against American-associated targets stopped when the American forces left.

Pape also pointed out that some of the rhetoric from Al Qaeda at the time specifically referred to the presence of Western forces in Muslim lands. It wasn't just some random rhetoric of Western-lifestyle hatred, it was specific: get out of our lands.

Which doesn't mean you HAVE to get out of 'their' lands of course, but at least if you understand what the demand is you can make an informed decision of whether or not to comply with it.

ISIS is not engaged in terrorism, it is behaving far more like a military force, so I'm not suggesting that the observations above are directly applicable to ISIS. What I'm suggesting is that the process of listening and of understanding exactly why things are happening is an essential first step to finding a solution. It doesn't mean you simply give someone everything they want - not when it seems that this will lead to them persecuting Shiites, Christians and Yazidis - but you do rather need to understand what they want before you can work out how to respond to that.

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

 - Posted      Profile for LeRoc     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Anglican't: I've no objection to dialogue, but if the answer to the question 'what would you like?' is 'I'll only be satisfied once Israel is driven into the sea and a homosexual hangs from every lamp post' then, well, I'm not sure what any conversation is going to achieve.
Then don't enter the conversation expecting this answer.

--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

 - Posted      Profile for Sioni Sais   Email Sioni Sais   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Anglican't: But what if what they say is unpalatable to us?
Is that how you enter a conversation?

Well, no, but I've never started a conversation that is designed, ultimately, to end murderous hostility, which is what I understood you to be suggesting.

I've no objection to dialogue, but if the answer to the question 'what would you like?' is 'I'll only be satisfied once Israel is driven into the sea and a homosexual hangs from every lamp post' then, well, I'm not sure what any conversation is going to achieve.

If you think the conversation could go that way you don't ask a closed question about their ultimate objective (unless that is, you actually want to piss off the party of the second part). To give another example, how many successful seductions commence by asking outright for a fuck?

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292

 - Posted      Profile for Anglican't   Email Anglican't   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I suppose it depends on who you're trying to seduce...
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009  |  IP: Logged
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597

 - Posted      Profile for Stetson     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Orfeo wrote:

quote:
It wasn't just some random rhetoric of Western-lifestyle hatred, it was specific: get out of our lands.


Bit tanhemtial, but I've always thought that the correct formulation of the Lifetsyle Vs. Imperialism debate surrounding motivations for anti-west terrorism was that the terrorists probably DO dislike the supposed decadence of the west, but that it takes the occupation of their lands to make that issue into an obsession.

In other words, in the absence of western interference, western lifestyles would just be seen as some odd thing that people have a mild distaste for, but will generally just shrug off as something going on in strange countries far away.

Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

 - Posted      Profile for orfeo   Author's homepage   Email orfeo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
^ I have no objection to that way of thinking about it.

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597

 - Posted      Profile for Stetson     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
^ I have no objection to that way of thinking about it.

Yes, I figured we were on the same page.

Anyway, the US State Department has relased a propaganada video meant to counter ISIS recruitment.

Not sure how effective this would be, even apart from its dubious(from the pov of radicalized Muslim youth) source.

The video tries to point out the supposed irony in ISIS claiming to defend Muslims, while blowing up mosques. But, of course, ISIS and its followers likely don't regard those mosques as legitimate anyway. Especially if the mosques are Shia. They probably regard them the way Ian Paisley regards Catholic churches.

Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292

 - Posted      Profile for Anglican't   Email Anglican't   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Pape also pointed out that some of the rhetoric from Al Qaeda at the time specifically referred to the presence of Western forces in Muslim lands. It wasn't just some random rhetoric of Western-lifestyle hatred, it was specific: get out of our lands.

Some of the rhetoric may have been, but I never got the impression that al-Qaeda's aims were ever consistent. Sometimes, they wanted the West out of Saudi Arabia. Sometimes they wanted an Islamic caliphate that stretched from Andalusia to Indonesia. Sometimes they were willing to make 'peace' with Europe alone if they disassociated themselves from the US.

Perhaps the 'West in Muslim lands'-thing was at the core of it, but I always got the feeling that a lot of al-Qaeda's 'war aims' were an attempt to give form to a general hatred of the West and Western values.

Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Ad Orientem - you OFTEN impress me, especially when up against me and my expression.

I waver. Emotionally and therefore rhetorically, especially in my inner rhetoric, my beliefs, absolutes. My narrative on all this. I wobbled big time two weeks ago over the IS treatment of the Yazidi in particular (800 of whom were murdered by Iraqi Kurds in 2007), who seem to be by far the most intense victims of persecution, way beyond Shia and Christians (in that order) who are nonetheless being persecuted with grinding evil. I get the pulse of kill them, kill them ALL. Extirpate them in righteousness. Evaporate them as the French airforce did in Libya. Let fire fall from heaven. I am soused in the myth of redemptive violence, it's in my memes for 80% of my life as well as my genes.

I listened to the BBC interview with the Syrian Peshmerga this morning at 08:45. Awesome. Bloody superb people. And the heart-rending interview that followed on British IS fighters desperate to come home. We MUST love these guys home. And love them when they're back. With mandatory deprogramming, counselling. And unconditional love.

My absolutism is the result of the polarization that goes on here. It works on overcoming all manner of half baked baggage I've carried for 50 years. It is A view that has to be articulated here and refined in fire, regardless of how I waver over it and how inadequately I propose it. Regardless of how I don't know what to do either. I haven't the faintest idea. Like Jeremy Hardy on Any Questions in 2003 I think, arguing against the invasion of Iraq up against a Tory who asked what his alternative was to invasion. And that the efforts of good men like Obama and Cameron, involving our superb military, soldier saints as far as I'm concerned, are the best there can be. This IS the best of all possible worlds. And despite my reversion to rhetorically holding Christianity responsible for much of the evil of the past two millennia, I temper that with the understanding that we can't help it. We really are fecklessly innocent in all this. ALL of us. Including the IS.

As for Jesus and the centurion and therefore war, I've used the same argument myself and saw it as seemless with John the Baptist's attitude to the military before Him and the apostle Paul's after. So in all my absolutism, in all my excoriation of Christianity, I FULLY acknowledge that in the incarnate Jesus it WAS an evolving, ambiguous position. Especially in His discourse. A discourse TRANSCENDED by His actions. His language is of its time. I see Him using the language of His time against itself, but not completely. He and His narrators were blithely Christological in their interpretation of the Old Testament in ways that moderns like us cannot be. In ways that are exemplary for us in THIS matter and others - like divorce, gay marriage. But He could not transcend the narrative of the God the Killer requiring penal substitutionary atonement. To read postmodern transcendence of that in to The Son of Man is absurd. Jesus believed in God the Killer, believed that He HAD to lay His life down to save us legalistically. Even though He appeared to attribute some of the narrative to Moses and not the Holy Spirit directly. His knowledge, His understanding were shacked by His humanity even in their leap of and for divine intent. But in His ACTIONS He was sublime, He was transcendent, the greatest example for me being in the woman caught in adultery. The courage, the mercy, the emotional intelligence, the cleverness, the vastness of mind. Lesser and still astounding examples abound: rending unto Caesar, the Syro-Phoenician woman.

In the arc of the moral universe Jesus is the inflection point where the arc entered a new trajectory where it naturally would not have. So the argument for absolute pacifism is inferred along, beyond His discursive trajectory at the time. With ease in the saying of it now. As in ethics beyond legalism generally. A legalism - about His sayings - He would NEVER have endorsed.

Peace is on the arc.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493

 - Posted      Profile for JoannaP   Email JoannaP   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Pape also pointed out that some of the rhetoric from Al Qaeda at the time specifically referred to the presence of Western forces in Muslim lands. It wasn't just some random rhetoric of Western-lifestyle hatred, it was specific: get out of our lands.

Some of the rhetoric may have been, but I never got the impression that al-Qaeda's aims were ever consistent. Sometimes, they wanted the West out of Saudi Arabia. Sometimes they wanted an Islamic caliphate that stretched from Andalusia to Indonesia. Sometimes they were willing to make 'peace' with Europe alone if they disassociated themselves from the US.

Perhaps the 'West in Muslim lands'-thing was at the core of it, but I always got the feeling that a lot of al-Qaeda's 'war aims' were an attempt to give form to a general hatred of the West and Western values.

Al-Qaida was always consistent in that its long-term aim was a Caliphate from Andalusia to Indonesia. To do that, they had to remove most of the rulers of Arab and other Muslim countries, whom they regarded as "apostate". To do that, Osama Bin Laden believed that they had to reduce US and other Western support for these apostate leaders. So attacking the US was a tactic used to achieve the strategic goal of the Caliphate.

--------------------
"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin

Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716

 - Posted      Profile for ChastMastr   Author's homepage   Email ChastMastr   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I'm sorry, Martin, but I'm sure you see
That on this we do not agree


--------------------
My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211

 - Posted      Profile for Laurelin   Email Laurelin   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
I wobbled big time two weeks ago over the IS treatment of the Yazidi in particular (800 of whom were murdered by Iraqi Kurds in 2007), who seem to be by far the most intense victims of persecution, way beyond Shia and Christians (in that order) who are nonetheless being persecuted with grinding evil.

I'm sure I know no more about the situation there than you do, but why do you assume that the poor Yazidi people are 'the most intense victims of persecution'? Just because the world media suddenly cottoned onto their ghastly plight on that mountain? The world's media has lost interest in them since. And it makes no mention now of the Shia Muslims and the Christians either. But ALL these people are suffering equally.

quote:
We MUST love these guys home. And love them when they're back. With mandatory deprogramming, counselling. And unconditional love.
Who's 'we'? If our government can behave humanely and succeed in deprogramming some of these young men, then I can get behind that, I guess.

I also want to see those who have committed atrocities to be arrested and tried with due process.

But 'unconditional love' is beyond the remit of any government. Only Christ can give that, IMO.

--------------------
"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien

Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
AWESOME orfeo, thank you.

Aye Chas. But I love you any way.

I'm sure you do Laurelin.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
deano
princess
# 12063

 - Posted      Profile for deano   Email deano   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Islam has much to offer a West that seems to be teetering on the verge of brokenness .

What things would they be then? What can islam show the west that we don't already know and are either doing or have rejected?

Make us a list.

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
If you think the conversation could go that way you don't ask a closed question about their ultimate objective (unless that is, you actually want to piss off the party of the second part). To give another example, how many successful seductions commence by asking outright for a fuck?

Why not ask like that? This is nation-state level diplomacy and warfare we are discussing. The niceties stop after "How are you? Did you have a pleasant journey? Now, about your aims..."

I think the conversation is more the west saying "you are not going to be allowed to fuck us" rather than the way you have it SS.

quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
Al-Qaida was always consistent in that its long-term aim was a Caliphate from Andalusia to Indonesia.

Given Andalusia is part of the west, part of Europe, part of Spain, it needs to recognised that the long-term aim will never be allowed to be met.

Why would the west ever countenance giving over Europeans to islam?

What would taking that position do to the "delicately phrased" discussions SS wants?

quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
If our government can behave humanely and succeed in deprogramming some of these young men, then I can get behind that, I guess.

I also want to see those who have committed atrocities to be arrested and tried with due process.

"Some"? Only "some"? So you are willing for the remainder to be active participants in terrorism against the west? To launch bombings in London, New York, Madrid etc?

On your second point, the evidence to try these people is hard to come by when they are wearing masks and operating out of Syria, Iraq, Pakistan or Afghanistan. Not much allowance for the FBI or Anti-Terrorist Branch to get on the ground and gather evidence that is admissible in courts. They may well get their heads lopped off the minute they start wandering round and interviewing local residents don't you think?

Sunshine, Lollipops and Rainbows vs jihad; hmmm... Let me call Ladbrokes and put a bet on.

--------------------
"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot

Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

 - Posted      Profile for Sioni Sais   Email Sioni Sais   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by deano:

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
If you think the conversation could go that way you don't ask a closed question about their ultimate objective (unless that is, you actually want to piss off the party of the second part). To give another example, how many successful seductions commence by asking outright for a fuck?

Why not ask like that? This is nation-state level diplomacy and warfare we are discussing.

To describe ISIL as a nation state is nonsense. You're falling for their rhetoric.
quote:

The niceties stop after "How are you? Did you have a pleasant journey? Now, about your aims..."

I think the conversation is more the west saying "you are not going to be allowed to fuck us" rather than the way you have it SS.


That's the whole purpose of the "other track". Didn't I say this was a twin-track approach? We have to reduce ISIL's effectiveness permanently which takes more than air strikes, which are the 21st century equivalent of Gunboat Diplomacy. That led to WW1 remember.

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
deano
princess
# 12063

 - Posted      Profile for deano   Email deano   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
We have to reduce ISIL's effectiveness permanently which takes more than air strikes, which are the 21st century equivalent of Gunboat Diplomacy. That led to WW1 remember.

Talking to the tribes? How did that work out in Afghanistan?

We can talk to the tribal leaders and get their agreement to fight IS, then somebody in that tribe kills the leaders and IS win again.

Eventually the tribal leaders decide the best way to stay alive is to get with the guys with the guns.

That, according to the peace-first hanky wringers MUST NOT be the west. So it is IS.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

[ 06. September 2014, 11:44: Message edited by: deano ]

--------------------
"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot

Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

 - Posted      Profile for Sioni Sais   Email Sioni Sais   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
You don't read for comprehension do you, just so far as suits your own twisted prejudices.

Twin-track worked in Ireland and Malaysia too. It could be argued that in worked in Kenya and Cyprus: not ideal, but far better than outright military action alone which you advocate.

As for Afghanistan, we've been there four times and the best outcome was the stalemate in 1920. Going there really does demonstrate that one shouldn't start a land war in Asia.

Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211

 - Posted      Profile for Laurelin   Email Laurelin   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Deano - when I said 'some', I was trying to be realistic because I am certainly not confident that all of these young men could be deprogrammed or even if any of them could be.

Obviously I'd be over the moon that the remainder would be left to wreck horrible mayhem. [Roll Eyes] Give me a break.

I favour military action against IS. No sunshine or pink unicorns here.

--------------------
"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien

Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Someone suggested on an online post I read elsewhere that Islam is going through something akin to the Reformation at the moment ... with some rather radical and Puritanical types attempting to divest it of what iconography and art it currently has ... even to the point of blowing up the shrine of Mohammed and replacing it with a few pieces of gravel.

This might sound far-fetched, but similar things have happened at the shrines of other Islamic saints and holy men.

So the whole religion is in a state of flux and change - as Western Christianity was back in the 1500s and 1600s - and that was pretty bloody too.

I really don't see what deano is advocating beyond some kind of genocidal approach where all Muslims are deemed guilty until proven otherwise.

I'd be in favour of limited - but effective - military action against IS - perhaps the use of special forces and so on.

That's rather different to wanting to nuke the entire area - combatants, non-combatants, innocent and guilty alike.

Deano simply strikes me as an angry and unpleasant middle-aged reactionary with enough chips on his shoulder to build a log cabin.

His real target isn't Islamic extremists but either his own demons or the projection of those onto the touchy-feely liberal lefties he despises so much and who are - generally speaking - a heck of a lot more intelligent than he is.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

 - Posted      Profile for Sioni Sais   Email Sioni Sais   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:

Deano simply strikes me as an angry and unpleasant middle-aged reactionary with enough chips on his shoulder to build a log cabin.


Are you suggesting he should get a Harley-Davidson or, failing that, grow a ponytail?

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
He may have both already as far as we know.

If he lives in Derbyshire, as I think he does, then a blow-out across the Peaks on a high-cc motorbike might do him some good.

Just so long as he doesn't keep going and cross the border into the North Staffs/South Cheshire area, I'd be pleased for him if he did.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840

 - Posted      Profile for rolyn         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Islam has much to offer a West that seems to be teetering on the verge of brokenness .

What things would they be then? What can islam show the west that we don't already know and are either doing or have rejected?

Make us a list.

How not to objectify females
How to reduce the divorce rate
How to reduce alcohol and drug abuse
How to prevent obesity
How to prevent imaginary illnesses and depression
How to not live consumeristic lives that screw the planet.

Was going to say 'How to live in peace', but think we'll call it a draw with Christianity on that one.

Not that I'm necessarily pro-islam or anything. There are many days a week when I'd be etremely happy to see a worldwide ban on all religion -- considering the trouble it causes.
Not quite sure how that could be implemented though [Confused]

--------------------
Change is the only certainty of existence

Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged
Rosa Winkel

Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424

 - Posted      Profile for Rosa Winkel   Author's homepage   Email Rosa Winkel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:

Deano simply strikes me as an angry and unpleasant middle-aged reactionary with enough chips on his shoulder to build a log cabin.


Are you suggesting he should get a Harley-Davidson or, failing that, grow a ponytail?
Or even worse, take up golf.

--------------------
The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project

Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Chesterbelloc

Tremendous trifler
# 3128

 - Posted      Profile for Chesterbelloc   Email Chesterbelloc   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Islam has much to offer a West that seems to be teetering on the verge of brokenness[...]

How not to objectify females
How to reduce the divorce rate. [...]
How to not live consumeristic lives that screw the planet.

[Ultra confused] I'm no Deano-ite, but, seriously?
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
There are many days a week when I'd be extremely happy to see a worldwide ban on all religion -- considering the trouble it causes. Not quite sure how that could be implemented though [Confused]

Why, by a brutal suppression of fundamental human rights, silly. There are plenty of totalitarian regimes you could learn from - do use your imagination!

[ 06. September 2014, 19:02: Message edited by: Chesterbelloc ]

--------------------
"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."

Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
deano
princess
# 12063

 - Posted      Profile for deano   Email deano   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
He may have both already as far as we know.

If he lives in Derbyshire, as I think he does, then a blow-out across the Peaks on a high-cc motorbike might do him some good.

Just so long as he doesn't keep going and cross the border into the North Staffs/South Cheshire area, I'd be pleased for him if he did.

But then I'd have to become one of those desperately sad fuckwits who pile into Matlock Bath on Sundays to admire each other bikes, eat fish and chips then piss off back home.

No ta. I'd rather advocate dropping a nuke than become one of "those" people.

--------------------
"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot

Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006  |  IP: Logged
QLib

Bad Example
# 43

 - Posted      Profile for QLib   Email QLib   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I'd rather advocate dropping a nuke than become one of "those" people.

Unfortunately, in view of your apparently increasing readiness to drop nukes on all and sundry, this doesn't tell us a lot. It's become a bit like: "Well, I'll go to the foot of our stairs!" as an expression of surprise.

--------------------
Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.

Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Well nuke me sideways. If the current and last Mrs. Biohazard dumps or predeceases me, I will be getting a Triumph Bonneville and roaring in to Matlock Spa. So I can roar out bare assed like Rambo out of Madison.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

 - Posted      Profile for LeRoc     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
deano: But then I'd have to become one of those desperately sad fuckwits who pile into Matlock Bath on Sundays to admire each other bikes, eat fish and chips then piss off back home.

No ta. I'd rather advocate dropping a nuke than become one of "those" people.

Makes you much cooler than them. Seriously.

--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Hey deano.

Nuke off and get nuked you nuking nukewit nuker.

Just had to say that.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

 - Posted      Profile for orfeo   Author's homepage   Email orfeo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Why would the west ever countenance giving over Europeans to islam?

Why would the West think it owns Bosnia and Albania?

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

 - Posted      Profile for orfeo   Author's homepage   Email orfeo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Actually, the more I think of it, the funnier an adherent of a Middle Eastern religion saying "we would never hand Europe over to a Middle Eastern religion" becomes.

I expect that in deano's subconscious, Jesus was actually born in a small village in Somerset.

[ 07. September 2014, 03:54: Message edited by: orfeo ]

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
The5thMary
Shipmate
# 12953

 - Posted      Profile for The5thMary   Email The5thMary   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Well nuke me sideways. If the current and last Mrs. Biohazard dumps or predeceases me, I will be getting a Triumph Bonneville and roaring in to Matlock Spa. So I can roar out bare assed like Rambo out of Madison.

I love you, Martin! I don't understand you nine times out of ten, but every once in a while you post a zinger and this is one! [Overused]

--------------------
God gave me my face but She let me pick my nose.

Posts: 3451 | From: Tacoma, WA USA | Registered: Aug 2007  |  IP: Logged
The5thMary
Shipmate
# 12953

 - Posted      Profile for The5thMary   Email The5thMary   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
I expect that in deano's subconscious, Jesus was actually born in a small village in Somerset.
I nominate this for the SOF quote file! [Killing me]

--------------------
God gave me my face but She let me pick my nose.

Posts: 3451 | From: Tacoma, WA USA | Registered: Aug 2007  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  ...  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
follow ship of fools on twitter
buy your ship of fools postcards
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
 
  ship of fools